<pie__> is debugging for people that are srs bzns called failure analysis
<jn__> pie__: hey, get back on hackint ;)
<pie__> oops
<pie__> :P
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<openfpga-github> [openfpga] rqou opened issue #87: if pdflatex fails, only "Error 1" is printed https://git.io/vHmkz
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<rqou> ugh, latex is awful
<rqou> "! File ended while scanning use of \@writefile."
<rqou> super helpful
<rqou> and apparently latex hates underscores
<rqou> and apparently the cause of the first error is some stale files or something in the cwd
<rqou> huh, and apparently figure numbers don't work when i try to build it manually
<rqou> whatever, seems to work when "make" builds it
<openfpga-github> [openfpga] rqou opened pull request #88: doc: Documented UNUSED_DRIVE and UNUSED_PULL attributes (master...unused_attrib) https://git.io/vHmIF
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<openfpga-github> [openfpga] whitequark commented on issue #87: There is no way to make pdflatex perform sane error reporting. Either it runs in interactive mode and shits all over your terminal and hangs it in certain circumstances, or you only have logs and nothing else. I believe the current situation is the best that can be done (and already better than what most projects use anyway). https://git.io/vHmgl
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<openfpga-github> [yosys] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vHYaY
<openfpga-github> yosys/master fad52ab Clifford Wolf: Add aliases for common sets of gate types to "abc -g"
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<pie__> do you guys know any synonyms for depackaging? i found a book but im having trouble finding info on this in it
<jn__> decapping?
<pie__> right, anything else?
<pie__> (decapping is slangy though right?)
<whitequark> pie__: "decapsulation"
<whitequark> is the proper term
<pie__> ok i give up, does anyone see anything in the table of contents that would be about this http://www.asminternational.org/documents/10192/3461432/09110Z_TOC.pdf/96fcf653-8d7f-462c-9ddd-997049f03001
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<pie__> (Microelectronics Failure Analysis Desk Reference 6th ed)
<pie__> noone seems to treat decapsulation as its own topic
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<pie__> azonenberg, what are the main problems with decapsulation@home?
<azonenberg_work> pie__: ventilation
<azonenberg_work> and access to supplies
<azonenberg_work> sulfuric acid is readily available in the US but makes a mess, its hard to see anything through
<azonenberg_work> nitric is a lot harder to get but gives nicer results
<nats`> sulfuric works pretty well if you do it right
<nats`> don't let it overheat or effectively you loose the chip
<nats`> you have to rince really often with acetone
<nats`> and do that outside !
<pie__> nats`, why not both \o/ :P
<pie__> rinse and etch at the same time!
* azonenberg_work hides from pie__'s shrapnel
<azonenberg_work> if you're going to do that
<azonenberg_work> why don't you rinse with IPA instead of acetone
<azonenberg_work> Bigger boom that way
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<pie___> azonenberg_work, know any cheap chips to practice on?
<azonenberg_work> xc2c32a? :D
<azonenberg_work> if you want something larger / older geometry
<azonenberg_work> pic12f683
<qu1j0t3> pie___: find local hacklab or makerspace
<qu1j0t3> pie___: ours has a 'junk independence day' where you could collect any amount of chips
<pie___> qu1j0t3, not having a local space is still a problem for me :P
<pie___> azonenberg_work, k ill check those out
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<nats`> pie___ get stock of old pic16C
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<azonenberg_work> nats`: pic16c is old 500nm+ process mostly
<azonenberg_work> much less interesting
<nats`> for a first optical test ?
<nats`> it's pretty cool
<nats`> and it's easy to unlock them to get firmware too
<azonenberg_work> 350 is a lot more readable
<nats`> so I consider it a good starter
<azonenberg_work> you can read it fine optically
<azonenberg_work> pic12f683 is easily uv-able
<azonenberg_work> its about the largest process node that looks like a modern process (standard cells, CMP, dense automated routing)
<pie___> azonenberg_work, btw if i want to buy a biology microscope that will still work for this right?
<pie___> just might have to do something about lighting
<azonenberg_work> eeh
<azonenberg_work> strongly recommend you not
<pie___> yeah?
<pie___> crap :C (i mean i want a biology microscope anyway)
<pie___> but then what do you use
<pie___> well i mean ok one typically uses a metallurgical microscope
<pie___> i just have no idea what the differences are
<azonenberg_work> a bio scope is designed for through-the-sample illumination
<azonenberg_work> the stage has a hole in it
<azonenberg_work> and the lenses are built differently
<azonenberg_work> a metallurgical scope is designed for top-down, the lighting comes through the lens
<azonenberg_work> the stage is solid
<azonenberg_work> you can side-light a bio scope at really low mags and get something akin to metallurgical darkfield
<azonenberg_work> but you cant get anything equivalent to brightfield that way
<azonenberg_work> and at high mags there isnt enough clearnace between the objective and sample to get some light in
<pie___> yeah i just found out bio and metal lenses are different :/ didnt know that
<pie___> metallurgicals are more 'spensive tho :C
<azonenberg_work> shop around
<azonenberg_work> i got a BHM on ebay for $500 OBO and bargained them down to $250
<lain> I got an amscope metallurgical
<lain> don't get an amscope metallurgical.
<azonenberg_work> lain: pretty sure I did warn you against doing so
<pie___> lain, ok lol
<pie___> what happened
<lain> azonenberg_work: it was after the fact
<azonenberg_work> ah, lol
<azonenberg_work> pie___: build quality sucks
<lain> ^
<pie___> ah
<lain> it's not /bad/
<lain> it's just not /good/ either
<azonenberg_work> the stage bends and blurs the image any time you move it
<lain> hm, my stage is actually quite planar
<lain> no complaints there
<azonenberg_work> the lenses have significantly worse resolution than the olympus stuff i have
<azonenberg_work> lain: my stage is planar until you move the y axis
<azonenberg_work> when you move the y axis the stage flexes
<azonenberg_work> on X, it's fine
<lain> but resolution seems not great, and I have some internal reflections that result in the filament from the epi illumination showing up in the images, which I suspect is due to poor cementing of optics or something
<azonenberg_work> yeah that sounds right
<lain> I did manage to reorient the bulb so that was less of an issue
<lain> but yeah
<pie___> though i wouldnt be able to get amscope anyway because europe
<pie___> but > china
<lain> actually I'd say resolution seems pretty good on the higher power objectives, but the contrast is garbage
<pie___> all ive got is ebay.de going for me
<azonenberg_work> Don't get a new china special objective
<lain> the image winds up just washed out
<azonenberg_work> or scope
<azonenberg_work> Get a name brand secondhand
<azonenberg_work> olympus, mitutoyo, etc
<lain> yeah, get an secondhand olympus, zeiss, mitutoyo, ...
* azonenberg_work wants to get his hands on a FS-60 or so
<pie___> azonenberg_work, well dood thats olympus, probably cost 10x as much xD
<lain> we had this amazing zeiss at my HS
<lain> which never got used
<lain> it was HUGE too
<azonenberg_work> pie___: my new amscope cost 1k usd (with camera)
<azonenberg_work> my secondhand olympus was 250 on ebay
<azonenberg_work> plus another 300 of various upgrades from ebay (trinocular head for mounting the camera, illuminator power supply, illuminator bulbs, etc)
<azonenberg_work> and gives way better images
<pie___> are there any microscopy forums for this stuff or something
<pie___> i only found ones for biology
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<jn__> hmmm, die shots
<pie___> they are to die for
<pie___> but i mean the site
<pie___> what in the world is this supposed to be https://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33439
<nats`> focus by piezo or speaker
<pie___> oh
<pie___> suddenly makes alot more sense
<nats`> same concept but in your post they wan to do that under the sample
<pie___> cringe hard
<pie___> need this
<nats`> my olympus BH2 with everythin on it (everything basic) costed me about 750$
<nats`> with patience and good occasion :)
<pie___> dude just gets a wafer imager and doesnt know what to do with it :P
<lain> https://i.imgur.com/5CQNG7W.gif .. to image wafers
<pie___> another post "Initially I began getting images of our chips through the microscope, then migrated to using macro lens, then magnifying lenses, then extensions, teleconverters, combinations and so on. Now I mostly use a microscope objective with tube/relay lens and DSLR with focus stacking. My largest image pixel-wise took about 28 Gigapixels total for a stacking capture an stitch. Most of the stuff I do I can't show, but a few older ones are
<pie___> OK to use. "
<pie___> these guys dont use a microscope proper
<pie___> I'm now doing some other images of a new design, and just finished a image of a chip in silicon 28nm CMOS, I have the entire 16" CMOS wafer!! Earlier I did another 28nm CMOS chip that we did for DARPA, that computes 1,700 Giga-operations/sec, that's 1.7Tera-opertions/sec!! This is massively parallel processor that's the second largest chip ever done for DARPA.
<pie___> ""Amazingly it worked the first time!! Although it's taken months to run all the test vectors to verify operation.
<pie___> I'm designing a chip now in a process that supports devices that can amplify signals above 1/2THz.
<pie___> i almost dont even want to do microscopy anymore
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<whitequark> wow
<pie___> disregarding anything i said earlier
<pie___> the pics posted on this forum are fucking mindblowing is an understatement
<whitequark> theyre pretty good
<whitequark> the thing is ... with that feature size i get pics not really much worse on my amscope
<whitequark> yes the epi illuminator is shit and you need to fiddle with other things. but its not unreachable.
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<pie___> well im not just looking at the relatively rare silicon they images
<pie___> theres tons of other stuff too
<whitequark> ahh
<whitequark> oh yeah no argument there