apeiros changed the topic of #ruby to: Ruby 2.1.3; 2.0.0-p576; 1.9.3-p545: http://ruby-lang.org || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com || this channel is logged at http://irclog.whitequark.org, other public logging is prohibited
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<shevy> I am eating a "Buchstabensuppe" - an alphabet soup
<shevy> I am trying to locate the letters R U B Y - wish me luck
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<pipework> shevy: Don't choke on the D.
<skullz> zenspider: awesome, things.values.map{|v| v.min_by &:price} did the trick
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<zenspider> skullz: you wrapped them in proper objects?
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<zenspider> include Comparable; def <=> o; self.price <=> o.price; end
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<zenspider> then you can drop the min_by to just map(&:min)
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<rubie> hi all: can someone take a look at line 6 here, not sure why its getting past my while loop rules https://gist.github.com/gabrie30/f310d75ad3b46af2b15a
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<shevy> rubie first, you should always indent properly
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<shevy> using while means you should indent one level to the right
<shevy> second, if you have things like:
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<shevy> if choice == "rock" || choice == "paper" || choice == "scissors"
<rubie> is that two spaces or a tab?
<shevy> I'd use case/when
<shevy> two spaces, but it does not matter - the important thing is to be consistent. It helps spot errors
<zenspider> indent. don't submit us dead code. clean up before you ask a bunch of eyeballs to look at it
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<shevy> rubie here it is rewritten with case/when and loop {} - I did not test it, I probably would do this differently from the beginning. I usually assign to an @ivar in a class, @user_input http://pastie.org/9673769
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<volty> >> choice = "shevy"; ["rock", "paper΅, "scissors"].include?(choice)
<shevy> cool
<shevy> you have a weird character in paper
<shevy> :)
<shevy> ΅
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<volty> where's the bot gone ? ???
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<volty> >> where are you, now?
<eval-in__> volty => undefined local variable or method `you' for main:Object (NameError) ... (https://eval.in/210016)
<rubie> any idea why its going into that while loop even though the value is greater than 2?
<zenspider> bad code is bad
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<pipework> No code is better than no code, I hear.
<shevy> rubie what is the value - is it a string or is it not a string
<rubie> everyone has to start somewhere :)
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<shevy> rubie you can use .class to find out
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<shevy> ruby does not like if you compare '2' with 3
<shevy> ArgumentError: comparison of String with 3 failed
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<rubie> its saying user_count is a fixnum
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<rubie> p user_count.class # => fixnum
<zenspider> and the other?
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<shevy> hehe
<shevy> zenspider beat me to it :)
<rubie> fixnum
<rubie> p 2.class # =>
<rubie> fixnum
<zenspider> I simply can't read this code. I'm done
<volty> >> choice = "troll"; user_count = 999; choice != "quit" || user_count <= 2
<eval-in__> volty => true (https://eval.in/210017)
<shevy> rubie so I refer you to: <shevy> ArgumentError: comparison of String with 3 failed
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<shevy> rubie to resolve this, you must convert one to the other for the comparison
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<rubie> im confused because i did .class on both elements and they were both Fixnums
<shevy> rubie or even better, why don't you use two lines to check - it will be simpler for your brain to not get confused, rather than put all logic into a one-liner while condition clause
<rubie> how are you getting something different ?
<volty> >> choice = "troll"; user_count = 999; choice != "quit" && user_count <= 2
<shevy> rubie if they were the same object then you would not get the error
<eval-in__> volty => false (https://eval.in/210018)
<shevy> >> 3 < 4
<eval-in__> shevy => true (https://eval.in/210019)
<volty> and
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<volty> >> choice = "shevy"; %w/rock paper scissors/.include?(choice)
<eval-in__> volty => false (https://eval.in/210020)
<rubie> humm thats strange, when i deleted the first part
<rubie> and only used
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<rubie> while user_count <= 2
<rubie> it worked
<shevy> excellent
<shevy> now you make your code simpler
<pipework> rubie: You can probably install a ruby interepreter on your computer and use it there.
<shevy> that is good
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<rubie> but why?
<rubie> i just did something || something else
<shevy> dunno, I don't even use while loops
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<volty> can you sweam in a basin full of coca cola? dunno, i do not drink coca cola :)
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<volty> stringstream? i can't remember if it's there or I implemented it somewhere
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<volty> to read/write to a string, as if stream
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<volty> ops, ignore, stringio
<zenspider> stringio
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<volty> prog langs are worser than spoken ones when you consider pausing with using them. it takes so much time to recover (memory & else)
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<shevy> well
<shevy> it depends how you think
<shevy> I use ruby as a literal subset of terse, simplified english
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<shevy> cd this_dir if Dir.exist? this_dir
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<shevy> I could not do this in php
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<shevy> nor in perl
<volty> no shevy, I am fuzy now and do not express well enough. I was about that I was away from ruby for (too) long time.
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<shevy> I also use little helpers
<pipework> Santa's, or someone else's?
<shevy> pipework is in a good mood today
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<pipework> shevy: What's up, doc?
<shevy> no docs doc
<volty> i prefer cond && action
<shevy> that so reminds me of the movie Shining ...
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<shevy> volty the && would make me so violent
<pipework> I prefer `code && more_code`
<shevy> volty haskell has spoiled you
<volty> I was using that long before fighting with haskell
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<soahccc> Also unlike PHP or some other crap language && and || will actually return the value and will not be casted into a boolean value... The familiar foo || bar can also be applied to &&
<volty> and ||=, &&= too
<volty> shevy do you want to know are monads, in a one-line explanation?
<shevy> no longer
<shevy> I have opted to learn C instead
<volty> wise
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<volty> but go with c++, or java
<shevy> why would I want java
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<shevy> I went with ruby because it is terse
<shevy> and elegant
<soahccc> Shevy has seen Javatar
<shevy> I like << in C++
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<shevy> that's one thing I miss in C
<volty> c++ is going to have functors
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<shevy> really, they should have improved C so that C++ would have never had to happen
<shevy> volty wish me luck, I am compiling kdelibs 4.14.2
<schell> volty - how do you fight with haskell?
<shevy> with fire
<volty> you do not need luck, shevy, their configure is quite stable
<shevy> well, I have had a lot of problems ever since they switched to cmake ... the old GNU autoconfigure build system for kde 3 worked beautifully for me
<schell> shevy: i take it you don’t like compilers ;)
<benzrf> monads are 2abstract for a 1-line explanation
<benzrf> i could tell you what they are but you wouldnt understand
<benzrf> like objects ;)
<shevy> schell dunno... if things work smoothly then it's fine, I just absolutely hate problems and bugs and other time wasters
<schell> monads are computations inside a context
<shevy> benzrf why do we need monads
<volty> schell: was fighting, love & hate, you like it when you see small snipets of interesting data types & comprehensions & folding etc etc, and hate it when you realize that it sucks when you have a bigger picture
<benzrf> schell: ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm not even close
<benzrf> shevy: they are a useful interface for many kinds of programs
<benzrf> similar to Enumerable
<benzrf> or rather
<benzrf> like #each
<shevy> ok good
<benzrf> once you implement the class, you get lots of useful utilities
<shevy> I can memorize that
<benzrf> shevy: basically in haskell typeclasses are useful because they let you write polymorphic utility functions
<benzrf> the same way you can by default in dynamically typed langs
<benzrf> and Monad is a typeclass in haskell
<schell> if you look at the most simple implementation of a monad (in my opinion), it’s really just a computation in a context
<benzrf> no
<benzrf> wrong
<benzrf> monads are collapsible functors
<benzrf> there are no "computations" involved
<volty> benzrf: monads are rules (haskell classes) + functions to push & pull values from/into containers -- that's all there is to it, many ppl have different picture because there are tons of weird tutorials (that overcomplicate, probably to look more intelligent)
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<benzrf> >functions to push & pull values from/into containers
<benzrf> that is extremely wrong!
<benzrf> join doesn't pull
<benzrf> it joins
<benzrf> er, merges
<benzrf> a nested structure
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<volty> better use the word wrappers (instead of containers)
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<volty> it's all the same, it is all about pushing in & pulling out
<schell> benzrf: but if you’re trying to explain something to someone who doesn’t know what a functor is, or that monads can be joined, that doesn’t fit on one line ;)
<volty> joining is just a consequence
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<benzrf> volty: noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooO!!!!!
<benzrf> look at almost any monad!
<shevy> volty just wiped the floor with benzrf!
<benzrf> ((->) r), Maybe, IO
<benzrf> NONE of those have pulling out!
<benzrf> ONLY merging
<shevy> damn volty
<schell> i think the process to understanding monads is to just look at their implementation - like Maybe
<shevy> you did not understand haskell volty!
<volty> :)
<shevy> data Maybe a = Nothing | Just a
<shevy> omg
<shevy> what is this shit
<benzrf> merging is not the consequence, merging is the POINT IN GIANT NEON LETTERS
<volty> enough to stay away
<benzrf> shevy: a tagged union of structs!
<shevy> I think we can all agree - the only one to have understood haskell here is benzrf
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<schell> shevy: it’s a data type - it says “a value of type (Maybe a) is either Nothing or (Just a)”
<volty> you have clean values and you have values in a wrapper, whatever you do you have to get them out (calc on them) put them back, or viceversa
<shevy> volty [ 89%] Building CXX object dnssd/CMakeFiles/kdnssd.dir/settings.o
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<schell> it’s actually pretty awesome
<benzrf> damn straight it's actually pretty awesome
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<schell> for instance, if you have a function that may explode (like division by zero) you can say that it returns a Maybe, since in certain cases, it will explode
<volty> class Maybe; attr_accessor :val; end; // m.a = nil (Nothing); m.a = 3; (3)
<shevy> cool
<schell> divideNumbers :: a -> a -> Maybe a
<shevy> exploding functions
<schell> if the second a == 0 it explodes
<shevy> so haskell is for TNT addicts
<volty> we check by checking for nil, they check against Nothing, we chain check by means of nil, they check joining and failing on nothing
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<schell> since it’s wrapped in a Maybe, that doesn’t matter - it will return Nothing in that instance
<benzrf> schell don't try to edumacate shevy
<benzrf> he is a lost cause
<volty> it's all the same shit, just overcomplicated, for the sake of purity, in haskell
<shevy> I just focus on the simple things in life
<benzrf> volty: lol
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<volty> benzrf: i like it
<shevy> volty well, I always say it's a language for math guys
<volty> i like haskell
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<schell> haha, that’s not true, it’s a necessary part of a computation that may not return a result
<benzrf> volty: i mean thats not even a purity thing
<volty> but it is USELESS
<benzrf> it's a typing thing
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<benzrf> volty: s-say that to all the big companies using it
<benzrf> l-like uh
<benzrf> at&t did once for a bug tracking thing
<volty> we'll see the results (if not enough what they've done till now)
<volty> companies like at&t did everything, for everything, even on Second Life
<volty> :)
<schell> volty: no! it’s very useful - it means never having undefined values, null values and other errors that are incurred due to some misbehaved function
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<schell> shevy: i think it’s becoming more mainstream
<shevy> ack volty
<shevy> did you read that ^^^
<shevy> everyone will have a 100 MB interpreter soon
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<benzrf> shevy: haskell is usually compiled numpnuts
<schell> once i got over the initial learning curve i loved it
<volty> schell: in theory, in practice you get stuck with all that purity and moving simple values out of monads (you can of course move them semi-automatically, but you'll get lost in all that weird mechanism)
<volty> s
<benzrf> shevy: basically haskell has had andand built in since 2000
<schell> but yes it can be interpreted
<benzrf> foo.andand.bar ?
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<volty> schell: i love it too
<benzrf> more like
<benzrf> fmap bar foo
<shevy> volty if you love it, why don't you use it?
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<volty> because it's useless for big, scalable, heterogenous, projects
<schell> it does become a lot of moving things in and out of contexts - but i prefer that to spending time in a debugger - or worse - writing tests
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<schell> volty: that’s where i think you’re wrong
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<schell> it’s best on very big projects
<schell> with lots of people
<volty> no no, you'll appreciate a debugger after you get lost in functional purity with no break
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<schell> i am yet to get to that point ;)
<benzrf> >because it's useless for big, scalable, heterogenous, projects
<benzrf> hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
<volty> schell: for you too, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSmkqocn0oQ
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<schell> hahaha
<schell> yeah
<shevy> isn't there anything large written in haskell?
<schell> yes
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<schell> publicly popular and open source and not haskell-centric? mmmm…
<volty> yes, not heterogenous, don't even have a decent gui lib
<shevy> ack
<shevy> no GUI in haskell?
<volty> parsing xml is a pain with all those weird arrows
<volty> they could do better if they did keep it simple
<volty> but they want to pose aside their sexy, unlimited, arrowing operators
<schell> volty: can you explain what you mean by heterogenous?
<schell> uniform?
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<schell> but yes - now you’re hitting on some points
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<volty> handle different things, different problems, not similar, haskell in wonderful in a closed world
<schell> haskell doesn’t have the best gui support - though if you consider Gtk+ good, then it does
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<schell> oh - then yes, it’s heterogenous
<volty> one has to try it
<schell> it’s a general purpose lang
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<volty> yes, but i am talking about implementing a prog that has to handle that complexity
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<volty> the wrong thing about functional languages (imho) is that they do not give you a break
<benzrf> volty you sound like somebody who has not yet drunk the kool aid
<benzrf> come on and try it
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<volty> so you are about to say: give me a breath, let me resolve, let me save those states
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<schell> he’s right though - it can be really frustrating when you’re learning and you “just want this thing to be that”
<schell> but you can’t have the good parts of purity and abstraction at that level if you use an escape hatch
<volty> benzrf: you can't have even different classes (in ruby's terms) that have same names for functions
<volty> in the same module (file)
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<benzrf> volty: that
<benzrf> that's your idea of limitations?
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<Hijiri> can I watch
<benzrf> volty: you can't even define the same function in multiple clauses in ruby!!!
<schell> when you’re used to sticking properties on things wherever you want and mutating them from any context, it can be hard to structure your program (or brain) to do what you want
<benzrf> :b
<schell> volty: you can import a module qualified
<schell> import qualified My.Module as MM
<benzrf> which you *cannot* do in ruby
<schell> MM.someFunction blah
<benzrf> something that has bugged me :|
<volty> absolutely, i needed code for coordinates, i wanted diff data for diferent dimensions, but you can def only once 'x'
<benzrf> def f(1)
<benzrf> 1
<benzrf> end
<schell> okay - i’m off
<schell> it’s friday!
<benzrf> doesn't work D:
<schell> o/
<benzrf> \o
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<banisterfiend> schell you can do that just by assining a const
<volty> schell: i have to spread the logic in more modules just for the sake of qualifying it ?
<volty> you don't need in ruby
<benzrf> volty: or you could avoid name reusage
<benzrf> it's poor practice
<benzrf> how often do you do that in ruby?
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<volty> no, nowhere without soem oop constructs (whether genuine or just syntax simulated)
<volty> some problems are too complex for that limit
<volty> what if we had to invent different name for legs of all animals ?
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<Hijiri> animals could be modeled by an ADT
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<benzrf> volty: that would be Doing It Wrong
<volty> mah, try and see
<benzrf> volty: perhaps you are thinking of `data Animal = Animal {stuff :: Thing, legs :: [Leg]}'
<volty> simple: i prefer to have a lang where i can use x y for 2d coordinates, and x y z for 3d coordinates
<volty> (and i do not want to use tuples)
<Hijiri> is that for a function application, like for f x y or f x y z?
<volty> anywas it's quite non-intelligent when you have to qualify what can be infered
<volty> yes
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<volty> x f, y f
<benzrf> >not using lens
<Hijiri> >tfw I still haven't learned lens
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<volty> that apart, haskell looks wonderful when you work with simple lists and trees, but begins to look ugly when you have to master more complex problems & structures
<benzrf> yes, the core language does indeed have that issue
<benzrf> thank god for libraries :-)
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<volty> name & operating clash has to be resolved // functional + give me a break + give me a state + give me base oop constructs
<volty> go and study, those libraries :)
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<benzrf> i have
<benzrf> pipes for example is pretty neat
<benzrf> btw,
<benzrf> (x, y, z) = (_1, _2, _3)
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<volty> neat, but examine the feat
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<benzrf> one = (2, 1)^.x
<benzrf> er
<benzrf> one = (2, 1)^.y
<benzrf> five = (2, 1, 5)^.z
<benzrf> :-)
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<volty> that's why python is so ahead
<benzrf> ??????????????
<volty> in italy there's "chi va piano va sano, va lontano"
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<volty> those who go slowly go healthy, go far
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<stormbytes> evening
<stormbytes> is it possible to use multiple tempates with sinatra/slim ?
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<stormbytes> err.. sorry templates = layouts
<volty> there are constructs that look very nice, and you can decipher them as long as your job is deciphering them, but when your brain has to think about a real problem, that learinning curve, of sexy-math libs, goes down
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<stormbytes> like slim :foo, :layout => "layouts/layout_foo"
<benzrf> but volty
<benzrf> ruby and python and other imperative languages are much harder to think about
<volty> (python respect to haskell, i meant)
<benzrf> you have to remember what things return without types to tell you and typos dont get caught until you run it
<benzrf> and most of all, you have to remember who's been messing with your state
<volty> not at all, look, i am not expert on haskell, but beleive me i have commons sense, I saw them, i saw how it scales badly
<volty> ruby gives you breath, you stop, you set aside, you pass on another part of the problem, you take it later
<benzrf> u wot
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<volty> i the other one, pure & functional, it is much more difficult to take a rest
<benzrf> how so..
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<volty> that's my opinioni, that's why functional remained there, despite the great academic brains (of pure theory)
<Hijiri> what led to your opinion
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<volty> experience ?
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<volty> it is much more easier to decompose a problem using a an imperative language (or mixed, with functional constructs, like ruby)
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<benzrf> .
<siwica> where are the possible bot commands listed for #ruby?
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<volty> human brain is associative, isn't recursive
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<Hijiri> I mean, what specific things makes pure functional programming more difficult to "take a rest" in
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<volty> pretending ppl to think 'functionally' remembers me of communists pretending people to behave in comunist way
<benzrf> volty we are clearly of such intensely opposing views that the only ground a reasonable argument could take place on would be on more fundamental stuff than programming
<benzrf> and tbh i'd rather argue about programming than human nature atm
<volty> ahah
<volty> true
<volty> gn
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<benzrf> cripes
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<siwica> where are the possible bot commands listed for #ruby?
<benzrf> no one knows that
<siwica> ^^
<siwica> I guess people who use them aint guessing
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<soahccc> I think I got a list once but there is no indication whether it's for unprivileged users
<tmoore> Which bot? There's at least 2.
<siwica> tmoore: for both then
<tmoore> I know helpa at least only responds to whitelisted users
<siwica> well I found out about the possibility for ">>" here, which obviously is for all users
<tmoore> and eval-in__ interprets ruby
<siwica> >> 1+1
<eval-in__> siwica => 2 (https://eval.in/210023)
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<siwica> soahccc: may I see that list? If it's only for whitelisted users I shouldn't be able to use those anyway
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<soahccc> siwica: sorry I can't find the link anymore
<siwica> soahccc: ok, too bad
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<shevy> ruby ruby ruby
<shevy> we must make ruby more kickass
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<benzrf> answer: make it mopre like haskel
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<shevy> anyone has some good blog entries from the last 3 weeks?
<shevy> I feel totally out of sync
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<soahccc> Anyone knows a similar thing as daemonize for windows? Daemonize uses fork while windows can only spoon. I guess Process.spawn would be a thing but I need a control wrapper as well
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<shevy> benzrf hehe
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<lampd1> ActiveRecord is `tits`
<lampd1> that is all
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<shevy> lol
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<atomi> im learning how to computer
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<unshadow> I'm trying to read information from a socket, buffer the information into a packet untill I get the EOFerror, will this work?:
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<unshadow> while buf = (socket.read_nonblock(4096) rescue nil)
<unshadow> (data||="") << buf
<unshadow> end
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<apeiros> unshadow: it will "work". it will also stop reading on any other exception, not just EOF
<apeiros> and data||="" in an iteration is a bad idea. just do data = "" before your loop
<apeiros> also avoids having data == nil in case of immediate EOF
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<mvkdev> i'm trying to optimize a ruby-rails application
<mvkdev> that is badly performing
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<mvkdev> looking at 'top' i hardly see any cpu usage, ruby (and nothing else) gets to 2% usage and then after a slow response, its gone ..
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<mvkdev> its a rails/unicorn application with redis
<mvkdev> on nginx / psql
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<mvkdev> (well ruby gets to 38% cpu usage on a ARM that is, monitoring it better ..)
<mvkdev> what can i do to make it perform better?
<suzylee> James
<suzylee> are you there?
<suzylee> what happeneed what went wrong
<apeiros> mvkdev: figure out what the bottleneck is
<suzylee> why did you remove me like that out of the blue with no explanation? please answer my email
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<mvkdev> apeiros: i think, the ruby app ;-) but cant find the painpoint
<apeiros> mvkdev: since from what you say it's not CPU bound, it might be RAM or IO
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<apeiros> mvkdev: anyway, find a request which is reproducably slow. then profile it.
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<mvkdev> apeiros: yes ok, well that's a start yes -> profile it by hand you mean?
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<apeiros> mvkdev: whatever works for you. there are profilers. but personally I prefer doing a rough breakup to narrow it down before I go at it with tools.
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<shevy> sounds like apeiros has become a dentist
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<apeiros> if the time rails reports and the time your browser reports differ wildly, then there's also the option that it's part of the infrastructure around rails which is slow
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<apeiros> e.g. we had that once when an appliance unpacked gzipped assets, scanned them, and then repacked them. was ~80% of the roundtrip time
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<mvkdev> apeiros: this seems to give some sort of clue
<mvkdev> ActionView::Template::Error (Cannot allocate memory - tail):
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<mvkdev> this server has only 512mb (hardware limit)
<mvkdev> should i increase swap size > thats obviously not gonna make it work faster..
<apeiros> 512 is *very* little for rails. given that a good part of it will go away for the OS, pg, nginx and redis too
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<mvkdev> after booting it, i got about 350MB ram left
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<mvkdev> even more then that
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<apeiros> *than
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<apeiros> after booting, no caches are filled, much data is still not loaded. not a very good datapoint
* apeiros afk
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<daedlock> hi
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<suzyleee> -NickServ- Information on ToTimKopf (account ToTimKopf):
<suzyleee> -NickServ- Registered : Aug 26 05:21:04 2006 (8 years, 8 weeks, 6 days, 06:21:27 ago)
<suzyleee> -NickServ- Last seen : (about 0 weeks ago)
<suzyleee> -NickServ- User seen : now
<suzyleee> -NickServ- Flags : HideMail, Private
<suzyleee> -NickServ- *** End of Info ***
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<unshadow> Is that a working loop ? while socke.read_nonblock(4096) |buffer|
<unshadow> data << buffer
<unshadow> end
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<jhass> unshadow: should be a syntax error
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL> tadan, I'm back
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<rpag> unshadow, read_nonblock could raise exceptions you want to handle, it has docs here http://apidock.com/ruby/IO/read_nonblock
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<jhass> apidock always makes me sad :(
<rpag> how come?
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<jhass> it's ugly and outdated
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<rpag> yeah, i've had a few issues getting use to omniref's UI
<jhass> rubydoc.info or ruby-doc.org
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<jhass> yeah, omniref has a nice concept but a terrible UI
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<jhass> rubydoc.info can query all gems and github repos too, just not search across them
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<rpag> yeah, and the default YARD template is pretty good
<rpag> at least compared to 'darkfish' in rdoc :)
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<adac> Creating a model like this: http://blog.isnorcreative.com/2014/05/08/easier-non-activerecord-models-in-rails-4.html wondering hwo can I create an object with "Contact.new" with custom values for the attributes
<adac> I tried like Contact.new(email 'example@example.com'....) but that results in rails throwing me: odd number of arguments for Hash
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<adac> *Contact.new(email: 'example@example.com'....)
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<jhass> adac: Please join #RubyOnRails for Rails questions. You need to be identified with NickServ, see /msg NickServ help
<adac> jhass, oh I just realized i posted in ruby
<adac> thanks!
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<RyanV> whats the correct way to include a gem that is not published to rubygems as a dependency in another gem (e.g. include .gem file, specify git repo, etc.)?
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<jhass> just declare it regularly
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<jhass> then distribute the .gem in some way and tell people to gem install it
<jhass> you can also run your own rubygems.org like service
<jhass> there's also SaaS stuff for doing so
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<RyanV> is there no way to specify a repo or path to a gem in the gemspec?
<jhass> no
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<jhass> do you use bundler in the target project?
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<jhass> where your private gem that depends on another private gem is used
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<rpag> you could also bundle the gem with your own
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<_1_DrStave> hi
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<rpag> hello
<jhass> 68 seconds too slow ;)
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<rpag> thats what i get for not showing joins/quits :P
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<jhass> smart filters ftw ;P
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<lessless> hello folks! is there is a gem for talking to xmlrpc server directly - omitting proxying it via scgi
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<apeiros> banisterfiend: ping
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<aaronite> Hello, How do I communicate through a TCPSocket? I know how to receive, but not how to send.
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<apeiros> aaronite: um, there's about a dozen methods to send
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<apeiros> puts & write f.ex.
<aaronite> apeiros: I want to send with a nullbyte in the end.
<aaronite> Because that's compliant to the protocol that i'm currently I/O-ing with
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<eam> aaronite: syswrite and sysread
<aaronite> eam: does this send a nullbyte
<apeiros> eam: why syswrite and not write?
<eam> it will send arbitrary byte strings
<apeiros> aaronite: if you write a nullbyte, it does
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<aaronite> apeiros: is chr.0 a nullbyte?
<eam> write should go through the rubyio layer, which you generally don't want for network behaviors
<apeiros> aaronite: no
<apeiros> "\0" is a nullbyte
<aaronite> yes
<apeiros> 0.chr is a nullbyte
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<apeiros> "\x00" is a nullbyte
<apeiros> but chr.0 is a syntax error
<aaronite> yeah, sorry I got confused
<aaronite> i haven't used ruby in a while
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<eam> aaronite: encoding may matter as well, you can always use pack/unpack to build specific byte strings
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<aaronite> okay, thanks
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* Hanmac points at verious things: "you are a nullbyte, you are a nullbyte and you are a nullbyte" ;P
<apeiros> well, "\x00" is valid in any ascii compatible encoding (to which utf-8 counts)
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<apeiros> Hanmac: you've seen too much asterix & obelix?
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<apeiros> eam: that's one of the things I wanted to clear up for myself for years - when to use sys* and when not
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<aaronite> while str = sock.gets
<aaronite> can I do, sock.print ?
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<Hanmac> apeiros: thats too ;P specially the one with that house that turns you crazy ;P
<apeiros> aaronite: you do know that there is IRB and pry and you can just try it out, right?
<aaronite> yes
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<apeiros> aaronite: also there is ri and ruby-doc.org
<eam> apeiros: I'm not sure of the low level particulars in ruby, but generally the non-sys() io functions act like f* family of stdio C functions what with buffering and flushing and so on
<eam> and sometimes translations of bytes
<apeiros> aaronite: then go and try it out
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<apeiros> and then when you have a question after trying yourself, come here and ask
<eam> sys*() should map directly to the read/write syscalls
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<apeiros> eam: I think I'll read the source to those methods
<apeiros> I assume the higher level calls will also try to schedule threads
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<apeiros> syswrite also states not to mix with non syswrite
<aaronite> argh, i'm having this annoying problem
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<aaronite> ruby won't receive this packet whilst wireshark will
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<shevy> apeiros what do you use for commandline option like --foo 5 ?
<eam> apeiros: yeah, that's generally because non-sys() might not actually call write() and might buffer instead (which then means out of order)
<aaronite> eam: so like datagram sockets?
<aaronite> datagram sockets, when sent, may arrive and may arrive out of order
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<eam> aaronite: more like a queue, so that multiple prints can be batched into one write()
<aaronite> ah :)
<aaronite> well, can you help me with this other problem i'm having?
<aaronite> i can't receive this packet
<apeiros> shevy: usually optparse
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<apeiros> and if optparse doesn't cut it, custom done
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<arup_r> Hi all
<eam> aaronite: you're using gets() and you've mentioned binary data in your line protocol
<aaronite> eam: yeah, I want to send a nullbyte at the end or it won't send properly
<aaronite> that's how the servers protocol goes
<eam> aaronite: can I suggest using IO.select() on the socket in your while loop? It will tell you whether the socket is ready to read or write
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<aaronite> i'll try that
<aaronite> is that built-in or something i have to require
<eam> gets on a socket is a recipe for process deadlock
<eam> it's built-in
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<aaronite> where do I call it exactly
<aaronite> im confused
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<aaronite> eam: and I do receive the packet, the problem is my program doesn't send it to output
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<aaronite> I can test this with wireshark
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<eam> right, most likely that's your use of gets. One sec, I will write up a simple tcp client
<aaronite> okay
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<eam> aaronite: well actually, let's do something simple first. Change gets to sysread
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<lampd1> brainssss
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<aaronite> okay
<aaronite> done
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<aaronite> :13:in `sysread': wrong number of arguments (0 for 1..2) (ArgumentError)
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<eam> sysread(4096)
<eam> you give it an upper bound on how much to read
<aaronite> isn't 8192 the max
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<eam> there is no max
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<aaronite> eam: I got the packet :)
<mr_snowf1ake> morning guys
<aaronite> you're a lifesaver!
<aaronite> i could never get this working in C
<eam> aaronite: the functions we're using are more or less 1:1 mappings to their C counterparts
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<eam> easier to manipulate the data in ruby though
<aaronite> yeah ;)
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<eam> aaronite: with a proper select loop: read_fd, write_fd, err_fd = IO.select([sock], [sock], nil, 1)
<eam> and then if read_fd, you can read from it
<mr_snowf1ake> so, i have what i hope is a quick question... i'm trying to use open3 to interact with a program on my computer (mps-youtube), but whenever i do an stdout.gets or an stdout.getc it seems to hang. any idea why that might be?
<eam> if write_fd you can write to it
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<eam> and so on -- without blocking your program (before, gets() was blocking trying to read from the socket looking for a "\n")
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<jhass> mr_snowf1ake: your program probably doesn't send a "\n"
<eam> when you call gets() you're really calling something like sysread(4096) which may read way way more than one line
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<jhass> mr_snowf1ake: the one you call that is
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<mr_snowf1ake> jhass: but shouldn't getc return something?
<eam> and then it just pretends to have read less, and keeps the remainder in a queue (remember, sys vs non-sys is mostly that queue)
<lampd1> `Your eyelids taste like bacon`
<jhass> mr_snowf1ake: only if there's output
<eam> when working with a terminal end of line has sort of magical properties due to how terminals operate, so gets() sees exactly the line typed
<mr_snowf1ake> strange... i definitely see output when i run this in the terminal..
<eam> but that's not how normal descriptors work
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<mr_snowf1ake> eam: yeah. hmm...
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<aaronite> eam
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<aaronite> the server generates a key and sends it to me, how do I get this key and return it to the server?
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<eam> aaronite: depends on the protocol you're interacting with
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<eam> mr_snowf1ake: for your popen3 case, are you sure your program is printing? strace is really useful for debugging where these kinds of things get stuck
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<aaronite> eam: it's a mix between XML and XT packets
<aaronite> i don't even know anymore :O
<romistrub> afternoon everybody
<eam> aaronite: when things get properly complicated you'll want to write up a state machine which can handle things like multiple reads/writes
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<aaronite> eam: I know
<eam> eg loop {select; handle_writes; handle_reads; parse_stuff }
<aaronite> I always made state machines in C
<romistrub> I have this bizarre problem where a require statement works in CLI but not in CGI, even though the $LOAD_PATHs are the same.
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<romistrub> how is that possible?
<jhass> you probably made a mistake comparing the load paths or use an ancient ruby version where rubygems is not automatically loaded
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<romistrub> jhass: I checked ruby_version, it's 2.1.3
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<aaronite> eam: The key is sent to me, but how do I get the key, from <k> to </k>?
<aaronite> The key inside those tags, how do I get it?
<romistrub> double and triple-checked the $LOAD_PATHs; they're the same
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<eam> aaronite: ideally you would use an xml parser. As a hack, you could try a regex
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<eam> regex is not a good general purpose solution
<shai> hi :) is there a way to change the Windows playback device using Ruby?
<eam> but everything you're doing here is rather hackish, so
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<shai> From speakers to headset and back again ... etc.
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<aaronite> eam: I don't know how to regex from <k> to </k>
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<mr_snowf1ake> eam: i'm pretty sure it is... at least, when i run the same commands directly from the terminal, i get output. though i guess that doesn't necessarily mean all too much, but it's not in stderr so i figure it must be in stdout?
<jhass> romistrub: it might be easier to install passenger into your RVM and built a rack app
<romistrub> jhass: I just tried require 'rubygems' and there's no difference
<romistrub> jhass: I actually have passenger and rack, and I'm just trying to poke around the basics of it, so I can solve etherial problems like this one
<jhass> the easiest thing is building a rack app and using a standalone application server and reverse proxying it with apache/nginx
<jhass> if you have passenger troubles debug those instead, join #passenger
<eam> mr_snowf1ake: you can use IO.select() to see which of the three fds to your subprocess are ready to interact with. And strace will simply show you
<romistrub> jhass: ruby CGI was hella easy except for this weird require problem
<eam> aaronite: /<k>(.*)<\/k>/
<eam> modulo other pattern complications
<aaronite> oh
<aaronite> thanks, how do I use it?
<eam> such as if multiple k tags exist
<romistrub> jhass: for me, at this point, it's about gaining insight into how the system works, how require can work in CLI but not CGI given the same LOAD_PATH, than actually getting a working app... I'm in student mode :P
<aaronite> .match() ?
<apeiros> romistrub: rubygems does not depend on $LOAD_PATH
<eam> >> "some text <k> to </k> lalala" =~ /<k>(.*)<\/k>/; $1
<eval-in__> eam => " to " (https://eval.in/210127)
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<jhass> romistrub: probably GEM_PATH / GEM_HOME / RUBYOPT etc. differences
<eam> or .scan, sure
<apeiros> romistrub: check out ENV
<tobiasvl> but remember that HTML is not a regular language, so if you're trying to parse that you will have a hard time
<romistrub> apeiros: I have a print-out of ENV, and yes, there's no GEM_PATH or GEM_HOME, etc., in the CGI, so does require reference those ENVs?
<tobiasvl> aaronite: ^
<eam> yes, this is absolutely a fragile hack -- you will have trouble with multiple <k> tags, or if the tag changes to "<k >" or similar
<aaronite> tobiasvl: this is xml
<romistrub> and if so, does RVM overload require, or something?
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<tobiasvl> aaronite: well the same thing applies
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<eam> aaronite: the correct way is to read all the xml and then use an xml parser
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<aaronite> eam: it's just a test i'm using to login to a server
<apeiros> romistrub: if no env vars are present, it falls back to its defaults. not sure how to get at them. probably via methods on Gem
<tobiasvl> aaronite: you will not be able to parse nested xml with regexp. use a real xml parser
<jhass> romistrub: RVM changes the default locations for those, so the builtin defaults fail if the vars are unset
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<eam> yeah, that's fine, regex is ok for a throwaway prototype
<aaronite> puts str =~ /<k>(.*)<\/k>/
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<apeiros> romistrub: anyway, if in CLI they're present and in CGI they're not (or other way round), you're probably having two different rubygems (maybe even two different rubies)
<aaronite> this returns 40 for some reason
<romistrub> apeiros: env vars are present, though, through apache, including the one I specifically set (PATH) so apache loads the correct interpreter
<eam> aaronite: it doesn't return the capture, it puts it in $1
<aaronite> oh
<eam> #scan will return matches directly
<romistrub> apeiros: I checked the rubies, they're the same version, same path
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<shai> Hi :) is there a way to change the Windows playback device using Ruby? From speakers to headset and back again ... etc.
<eam> >> "match the third word".scan /\w+ \w+ (\w+) \w+/
<eval-in__> eam => [["third"]] (https://eval.in/210128)
<aaronite> eam: yeah, that works
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<apeiros> if all you want is the third, just use String#[]
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<apeiros> >> "match the third word".scan[/\w+ \w+ (\w+)/, 1]
<aaronite> apeiros: the substring is dynamic
<aaronite> since the server generates a random key of random length
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* apeiros kicks eval-in__
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<apeiros> aaronite: see example. String#[] accepts a regex.
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<apeiros> >> 1+1
<eval-in__> apeiros => 2 (https://eval.in/210133)
<apeiros> >> "match the third word".scan[/\w+ \w+ (\w+)/, 1]
<eval-in__> apeiros => wrong number of arguments (0 for 1) (ArgumentError) ... (https://eval.in/210134)
<apeiros> oh
<apeiros> >> "match the third word"[/\w+ \w+ (\w+)/, 1]
<eval-in__> apeiros => "third" (https://eval.in/210135)
<apeiros> fixed
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<aaronite> sock.write(str.scan /<k>(.*)<\/k>/)
<aaronite> how do I concatenate 0.chr
<eam> aaronite: use temporary variables
<apeiros> this is so help-vampirey
<romistrub> apeiros: just checked the interpreter being used via RbConfig.ruby and they're the same interpreter in both CGI and CLI
<romistrub> same interpreter, same loadpath, different require behaviours :|
<apeiros> romistrub: as said, rubygems does not depend on $LOAD_PATH
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<romistrub> apeiros: how does rubygems locate rubies?
<jhass> romistrub: again, make sure to have the same GEM_HOME / GEM_PATH, RVM changes the default locations so they need to be set
<apeiros> apeiros: 18:37 apeiros: romistrub: anyway, if in CLI they're present and in CGI they're not (or other way round), you're probably having two different rubygems […]
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<aaronite> key = str.scan /<k>(.*)<\/k>/
<romistrub> jhass: thanks, will try that
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<aaronite> cant convert string to array?
<apeiros> where "they" = GEM_* env vars
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<mr_snowf1ake> eam: thanks, i'll give strace a try.
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<romistrub> jhass: would it be correct to add these ENVs in Apache's envvars?
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<jhass> I don't use apache and I don't use cgi
<aaronite> key = str.scan /<k>(.*)<\/k>/
<aaronite> sock.write(key + 0.chr)
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<jhass> and I don't use RVM
<aaronite> It says I can't convert a string to an array
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<romistrub> jhass: hah, ok
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<aaronite> is there a similar regexp method like scan, but doesn't turn it into an array but a string?
* apeiros rolls eyes
<jhass> aaronite: read the backlog again
<n3b> hello
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<eam> aaronite: when in doubt of what a thing is: puts thing.inspect
<apeiros> help vampire which doesn't pay attention. nice.
<aaronite> eam: thanks, I used your earlier suggestion to put it in $1
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<n3b> I'm beginner. I playing with cinch the ruby irc bot. I would like to store nick message and timestamp in a db but don't know with one it's better, easier to do. I will show stats and result on a small site with sinatra. Idealy I would like to add d3.js
<n3b> any idea for the db
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<jhass> Use Sequel
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<jhass> then you can fairly easily switch DBs as needed
<jhass> if one doesn't cope with the load
<rpag> SQLite3 could be an option to start off with
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<jhass> ^
<n3b> thanks jhass and rpag
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<romistrub> jhass: apeiros you guys are the best. Adding GEM_PATH in envvars using SetEnv was all I needed to do! :D
<romistrub> so obviously require is accessing GEM_PATH, is there documentation on this anywhere? Nothing I read about require suggested that it was using anything other than LOAD_PATH :|
<jhass> romistrub: rubygems overrides require
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<mr_snowf1ake> strange... eam, i'm going to further inquire you on this. so, i called stdin, stdout, stderr = Open3.popen3('mpsyt'); rs, ws = IO.select([stdin], [stdout]); and it hangs. Am I calling this incorrectly?
<romistrub> jhass: thanks so much, that's what I needed to know
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<romistrub> jhass: thx, i'm digging around for references to GEM_PATH, not in this file though
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<jhass> romistrub: look at the ton of code it calls
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<banisterfiend> apeiros sup guy
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<aaronite> are attr_* methods good?
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<benzrf> aaronite: they're fuckin fantastic!
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<aaronite> :D
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<ericwood> attr_accessor everything imho
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<ericwood> ugh I want to buy a macbook pro because I don't own a compy other than my work one but it'd be like $2300 if I included applecare etc.
<ericwood> can't justify it
<banisterfiend> ericwood get a payment plan
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<banisterfiend> and get a friend who's a student to buy it for you
<banisterfiend> they get mega discounts
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<ericwood> oooh yeah my brother is in school
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<ericwood> the payment plan requires signing up for a barclay's card tho
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<apeiros> banisterfiend: wanted to say mk8, but now tv is occupied by wife :(
<banisterfiend> apeiros darn :)
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<banisterfiend> apeiros you get super mario 3d world yet?
<banisterfiend> im thinking about buying it
<apeiros> banisterfiend: nope. I should not get a game right now. got stuff I should finish :D
<banisterfiend> apeiros so what games do u have currently?
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<banisterfiend> smash bros just came out btw
<banisterfiend> errbody going cray over it
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<apeiros> banisterfiend: still only mk8 and zelda wind waker
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<banisterfiend> apeiros is zelda worth a buy
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<apeiros> IMO yes, but I generally love the zelda series.
<apeiros> I find wind waker one of the weaker zelda titles, tho
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<shevy> aaronite attr_* is the same as if you write them yourself
<shevy> aaronite what does this here mean: attr_reader :foo
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<shevy> well, one advantage of course is that you get on a single line what you'd normally get on e. g. 3 lines
<jgt> hey everyone
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<Cache_Money> I installed rbenv by cloning a Git repo onto an Ubunto VPS. I'd like to uninstall it and use RVM. Is there an easy way to unistall it? I tried $ apt-get remove rbenv but that didn't do anything
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<havenwood> Cache_Money: rm -rf "$HOME/.rbenv"
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<havenwood> Cache_Money: and remove any mention of it from your dotfiles
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<havenwood> Cache_Money: if you didn't install it with apt you can't uninstall it with apt
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<shevy> hehe
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<shevy> Cache_Money apt-get is like fightclub - only those that stay inside that bubble can use it for handling software
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<shevy> does apt-get actually support installing into a user home directory?
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<Cache_Money> shevy: I didn't think so but the accepted answer on SO said that worked. Going to use havenwood's answer
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<rpag> dont think so
<havenwood> Cache_Money: I guess this *is* #ruby, so: require 'FileUtils'; FileUtils.rm_rf File.join Dir.home, '.rbenv'
<shevy> hmm
<havenwood> :P
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<shevy> interesting to see that SO recommends apt-get handling of rbenv
<jstream> how do i know if a segfault i'm encountering is a bug in ruby, or a library?
<havenwood> shevy: the best way to install rbenv is to use chruby
<shevy> hey!
<shevy> I use the source
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<havenwood> The source runs deep with this one.
<shevy> jstream hard to say, crashes look similar. I've seen crashes with ruby-gnome
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<shevy> havenwood one day I'll reach the point of where everything will compile smoothly!
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<jhass> jstream: in 90% of the cases I've seen it's the C ext or even a library a C ext links to
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<electrical> hi all, i'm trying to do some version comparison and most likely trying to take the hard way. I have a string like this: "< 2.0.0, >= 1.4.0" and i have a variable x with string '1.5.0' i want to do some version comparison to check if my version compares with the string given... so in this case if its higher or same like 1.4.0 and lower then 2.0.0 any
<electrical> idea's ? my main issue i've been having is if i have the comparator in a variable ( comp = '<' for example ) i can't do a comparison.. any idea's ?
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<jhass> electrical: You should be able to use Rubygems implementation, look at Gem::Version as a starting point
<havenwood> >> Gem::Version.new('1.5.0') >= Gem::Version.new('1.4.0')
<eval-in__> havenwood => true (https://eval.in/210151)
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<havenwood> electrical: '1.5'.send('>', '1.4') #=> true
<havenwood> electrical: but #public_send
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<havenwood> and versions are a bit more complicated than just numbers
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<havenwood> >> '1.11' > '1.2'
<eval-in__> havenwood => false (https://eval.in/210152)
<electrical> hmm okay.. i was planning to use Gem::Version indeed for comparison, but not sure how to use the comparator when its a variable as well.
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<Hanmac> electrical & havenwood:
<havenwood> >> comp = '>'; Gem::Version.new('1.5.0').public_send(comp, Gem::Version.new('1.4.0'))
<Hanmac> >> Gem::Requirement.new("< 2.0.0, >= 1.4.0".split(',')).satisfied_by? Gem::Version.new("1.5.0")
<eval-in__> havenwood => true (https://eval.in/210153)
<eval-in__> Hanmac => true (https://eval.in/210154)
<leitz> Newbie question using Ruby 1.8.7.. I've defined a hash: ranks = { 'E1' => 'Private', 'E2' => 'Lance Corporal'}. When I reuire the file and then call ranks['E1'] I get "undefined local variable.
<electrical> oh, interesting.
<leitz> Besides a brain, what am I missing.
<electrical> Hanmac: your's would save me some weird work. thanks!
<electrical> will try that out
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<Hanmac> leitz: local variables are file-scoped
<Hanmac> you need either a constant or global variables or instance variables
<electrical> Hanmac: your's works like a charm. thanks!
* leitz starts a google search.
<jhass> leitz: please don't learn the language on a 8 years old version
<jhass> that's EOL
<havenwood> leitz: 2.1.3! ;)
<leitz> jhass, no option. My work uses RHEL 6, and that's what Ruby they have.
<havenwood> boo hiss
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<leitz> I desire to get paid more than I desire Ruby perfection. :)
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* jhass curses RHEL yet again
<Hanmac> RHEL should be EOL too ;P
<jhass> totally
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<leitz> RHEL pays my bills so I can't complain. However, if I can learn enough Ruby to move from admin to systems programmer, life might be better.
<leitz> And making it RANKS fixes the issue, thanks!
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<Hanmac> leitz: use rvm or something similar to get a recent ruby on your system
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<leitz> Hanmac, won't help. I am learning Ruby to support puppet, which in our case uses the OS Ruby version.
<shevy> ack
<benzrf> leitz: you want Ranks, not RANKS
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<shevy> leitz in general, the first character is important for ruby to determine whether it is a constant or not
<shevy> so both Ranks and RANKS work equally well for the ruby parser itself whereas ranks would not
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<godd2> and of course, Ruby is case sensitive, so Ranks and RANKS are two different constants
<leitz> Ah, didn't know about the first character bit. Cool
<shevy> :)
<shevy> you could assign them though... Ranks = RANKS
<shevy> :P
<shevy> or!
<shevy> you could write a method!
<shevy> def ranks; RANKS
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<havenwood> Hanmac: nice!
<Hanmac> shevy did you know that you can use alias for global variables too? ;P
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<shevy> ewwww
<shevy> I don't really use global variables; I mean, in my own code
<rpag> i use them when i want my ruby to look more perl
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<shevy> yeah
<shevy> and to please eam
<jhass> when would you want to do that...
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<jhass> either of those
<shevy> well $stdin
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<havenwood> leitz: Red Hat Software Collections 1.1 has Ruby 2.0
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<Hanmac> shevy look that does not work without alias:
<Hanmac> >> $abc = :abc; alias $def $abc; $abc = :xyz; $def
<eval-in__> Hanmac => :xyz (https://eval.in/210155)
<jhass> Hanmac: which is a good thing!
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<jhass> we don't want to do that
<shevy> what the fuck is $def
<Hanmac> shevy in my example an alias for $abc
<shevy> I should run a petition "do not allow Hanmac to write ruby code"
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<Hanmac> shevy are you sure? that less ruby code i write, that more C++ i do ;P
<jhass> hey, we gotta fight C++ in some way
<shevy> yeah
<shevy> it will be better for everyone
<epitron> whoa, you can alias global variables?
<shevy> please epitron
<jhass> epitron: no, forget that
<shevy> forget that Hanmac ever showed the above
<epitron> but
<jhass> NO
<epitron> what if it's like a secret easter egg
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<epitron> on s certain day of every month, ruby can alias anything!
<epitron> this demands further investigation
<shevy> ruby can do a lot more than what people should do with it
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<havenwood> shevy: lots of interesting stuff in the stdlib, no doubt
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<lxsameer> hey guys what do you suggest to create daemons using ruby ?
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<jhass> Process.daemon ?
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<romistrub> how do I capture all puts/print statements within a block and send them to a string?
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<romistrub> or perhaps change the standard output to a string / file.
<jhass> romistrub: $stdin = StringIO.new
<romistrub> jhass: thx
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<shevy> one day I will be bug free
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<shevy> Dim varCopy As Long
<shevy> I must use this language
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<canton7> please don't :P
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<shevy> omg ... why do I have a file called /usr/bin/macbinary ...
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<eam> shevy: better question: why is there a program /usr/bin/cd?
<shevy> huh
<shevy> I don't have that
<eam> on your mac?
<shevy> I don't have a mac!
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<eam> why do you have macbinary?
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<shevy> yeah that's what I am wondering as well, unfortunately I already removed it ... now I want to find out where it came from :(
<jhass> pacman -Qo /usr/bin/macruby ....
<eam> it came ... from apple
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<shevy> ohhh wait
<shevy> I guess mac stands for something else there
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<shevy> or else I have to find another explanation why I have /usr/bin/macusers
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<Nilium> What about macruby?
<shevy> jhass macruby is a bridge for obj-c or?
<jhass> I've no idea
<Nilium> MacRuby is basically an implementation of Ruby on top of the Obj-C runtime and Cocoa
<jhass> I don't have it
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<Nilium> So, String is NSString and so on and so forth
<Nilium> It's actually really interesting and is sort of the precursor to RubyMotion, but it depended on the Obj-C GC (deprecated), so it's 100% dead.
<Nilium> Same guy who did MacRuby did RubyMotion, too, so there's that.
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<Nilium> I'd be tempted to write my own Ruby implementation if I thought I could wrap my head around the hellhole that parsing Ruby must be
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<rpag> steal parse.y :D
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<wasamasa> you silly people
<wasamasa> why are you attracted to ambiguous languages
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<eam> the one thing I wouldn't take from ruby is the parser
<shevy> but you hate the parser
<shevy> oh wait
<shevy> I read it the *opposite* way :\
<shevy> now it makes sense
<Nilium> I think if I wrote a Ruby implementation, it would add mandatory static typing to everything
<shevy> (note to self ... would is not the same as wouldn't ...)
<Nilium> At which point it would stop being Ruby and start being Right.
<jhass> Nilium: looked at crystal-lang.org ?
<Nilium> Nope, 'cause I mostly just use C++.
<Nilium> Looks neat, at least.
<jhass> it's fast too
<Nilium> Only thing I don't see is static types.
<Nilium> Also, it uses a GC, so fuck it
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<jhass> it's statically typed
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<jhass> just does interference
<Nilium> It even uses the GC I avoid
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<eam> the computing world is finally waking up to the "lost decade" of GC driven languages
<Nilium> What it should wake up to is reference counting.
<jhass> Nilium: still language design phase, if you have a better GC to suggest, they're very open about such stuff
<Nilium> Better GC: no GC, use reference counting, make it easier to reason about when resources are released
<eam> Nilium: tried rust?
<Nilium> Finalizers make me want to stab people.
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<Nilium> Looked at it, but it doesn't do anything I want, so I haven't bothered.
<Nilium> I don't like languages that hijack the main thread and make it painful to work with event handling on OSes that want the main thread for UI.
<XODKA> rf
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<Nilium> Rust and Go are both good examples of that.
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<Nilium> A language doing that isn't a design flaw, by the way, just so I'm clear that it's not a criticism of the language
<eam> rust and go are very different
<eam> go is gc
<Nilium> They're very different, but they both do the thing I can't work with
<eam> rust doesn't?
<Nilium> It did last time I looked. Had to do some funky stuff with the runtime to tell it to not do some stuff.
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<eam> rust uses raii
<Nilium> I'm not talking about GC anymore.
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<Nilium> Plus I never said Rust used GC, anyway.
<eam> you can do whatever you want with threads in rust
<eam> (that's the only reason I'm interested in it: it scales down to systems programming)
<havenwood> one thing Crystal shares with both Rust and Go is they all had janky REPLs that were dropped and not yet replaced with anything
<Nilium> My main gripe with Rust, back when I looked at it, was that doing anything with OpenGL was a pain in the neck because it wanted to reserve the main thread for stuff, which in turn made it incompatible with any OS that required you to do event pumping on the main thread
<havenwood> REPL me!
<Nilium> Where the main thread is thread 0 specifically and not just the thread the code you wrote starts on
<rpag> havenwood crystal doesn't have eval
<Nilium> Why would it?
<rpag> for a repl
<eam> Nilium: perhaps an issue with the library you were working with?
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<Nilium> eam: Well, an issue with the Rust runtime, maybe, but it's just how it worked at the time.
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<jhass> havenwood: it crashed at simple stuff though ;)
<rpag> havenwood, ya that seems to be gone now
<havenwood> rpag: aye
<havenwood> rpag: like Rust and Go it's REPL-no-more
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<banisterfiend> havenwood why did the yget rid of the go repl
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<havenwood> jhass: mm
<havenwood> banisterfiend: i guess REPL may be a bit kind for what gotry was
<havenwood> banisterfiend: dunno
<banisterfiend> havenwood lol
<jhass> havenwood: it used the llvm-jit compiler but that behaves a bit different and there simply was no time to fully support it yet
<havenwood> banisterfiend: they seem happy with Go Playground
<jhass> more important stuff to get done
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<rpag> go playground is neat
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<Nilium> I find it odd that Apple's Swift has a repl.
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<havenwood> think of the children!
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<havenwood> looks like in next release Go will finally be able to unset env vars
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<havenwood> thought that was really odd when i found it couldn't
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<havenwood> <3 Ruby
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<rpag> python is better tho
<havenwood> i can't like it no matter how much i try
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<Nilium> Not fond of Python.
<rpag> python looks like a deformed ruby, and ruby looks like a deformed python
<wasamasa> ahaha
<Nilium> I feel like it's generally easier to get stuff done in Ruby.
<wasamasa> yeah, I guess I'm totally out of python
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<wasamasa> after dealing so much with ruby
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<rpag> when i learnt ruby i could have as easily decided to learn python
<rpag> (but i didnt :P)
<rpag> i dont think i would either because theyre too similar
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<Nilium> I also happen to like my explicit scope markers (i.e., curly braces, do/end, etc.)
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<Nilium> Though I use LiveScript (some compile-to-JS language) at work and I apparently haven't had an aneurysm yet
<rpag> livescript eh
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<Nilium> If you plan to point out that it's the original name for Javascript, believe me, I know
<Nilium> Every single person I mention Livescript likes to make that connection.
<rpag> why are you using that?
<Nilium> Because I can.
<Nilium> Other reason being to just avoid boilerplate.
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<rpag> have you tried opal?
<Nilium> Nope.
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<rpag> its close to ruby syntax wise
<Nilium> I know what it is, I just don't think it's a particularly good idea since I can't imagine the output would be particularly small
<rpag> why would it be any different to any other language that compiles to JS?
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<Nilium> Because Opal has to drag in its own little core/runtime library.
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<Nilium> That was one of the reasons I didn't go with, for example, Dart
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<Fractional> What's the more 'ruby way'? Creating a object and then initializing it's attributes (i.e foo = Bar.new; foo.name = 'hi'; foo.lastname = 'bye'; or foo = Bar.new('hi', 'bye')?
<Nilium> Either of those looks like normal Ruby to me depending on what you're doing.
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<Nilium> Another fun one some people do is Bar.new { |b| b.name = 'hi'; b.lastname = 'donkey' }
<Nilium> I'd discourage that though
<havenwood> Fractional: are those attributes things that should be changed from the outside after initialization?
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<Fractional> havenwood: Yes
<Nilium> Must they always be initialized to a defined value?
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<Fractional> Because right now my Foo.new looks like this: GUI::Button.new(Vec2.new(50, 50), @rm['background'], @button_state[256], Body.new(Vec2.new(@window.mouse_x, @window.mouse_y), 1, 1), 'Calculate', @rm['font_default'])
<Fractional> Was wondering if it would be better to do foo = GUI::Button.new; foo.body.position = Vec2.new(50, 50) etc..;
<Nilium> So put some stuff in other variables.
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<Nilium> If the object must be initialized with defined values, pass stuff in via the ctor. If the object has acceptable default values that can be modified, you could update it via accessors after construction.
<Nilium> It depends on what you're doing.
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<Nilium> Either way, consider using some intermediate variables so you're not loading the parameter list with tons of expressions, since that gets hard to read.
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<shevy> hard to read!!!
<shevy> Fractional he insults your code!!!!!
<shevy> I am sure it is super easy to read!
<shevy> GUI::Window::Button::Colour
<shevy> yay!
<Fractional> shevy, if you say so my love!!!!
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<shevy> in gtk you have to do this:
<shevy> Gtk::Button
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<shevy> Fractional in the example above though, I'd think a hash would be easier to read
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<shevy> GUI::Button.new { x_coord: 50, y_coord: 50, background: false } hmm ... and whatever the reas is... I guess 'Calculate' is the title of that widget?
<shevy> e. g. the button
<shevy> *the rest is
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<atmosx> hello
<atmosx> shevy: whats up
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<Fractional> sheevy: Am I not breaking the D in SOLID if I do not pass in the Vec2 object rather than its values?
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<Fractional> shevy*
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<shevy> atmosx not much ... I am trying to finish that god awful rewrite today
<shevy> Fractional dunno, you can always try to make your constructors as flexible as possible
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