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<joy4u>
i have an array such as [["email", "testuser@localhost.com", "first_name", "Jacob"], ["email", "newuser@localhost.com", "first_name", "David"]] and i want it into a hash as {"email"=>"testuser@localhost.com","first_name"=>"Jacob"}, {"email"=>"newuser@localhost.com","first_name"=>"David"} how to do it?
<joy4u>
mikecmpbll: hi buddy can you tell me the solution?
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<Senjai>
but i have no idea why you'd have bad data lik ethat
<Senjai>
added output
<Senjai>
whitequark: for your reference too
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<joy4u>
Senjai: thanks a lot buddy and what do you mean by the bad data the error?
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<Senjai>
joy4u: There isnt really a reason to have an array like that in the first place
<Senjai>
Where did it come from?
<whitequark>
Senjai: uhh, map! is usually an antipattern
<joy4u>
Senjai: i have converted the active record to array like that
<whitequark>
(unless you explicitly know you need to mutate the original object...)
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<Senjai>
whitequark: Its not an antipattern
<Senjai>
whitequark: I have no need to duplicate the array
<Senjai>
joy4u: what for
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<whitequark>
Senjai: wrong
<whitequark>
you don't know where the array came from and what would mutation result in; it could be aliased
<whitequark>
copying is inherently safer
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<Senjai>
whitequark: Your joking right. I created the array, I know where it came from
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<Senjai>
No point to waste memory (not like its a thing).
<Senjai>
As for 'what mutation could result in', well a result is just a result, that should be tested like everything else in your application
<whitequark>
in a real application you wouldn't just have the data right in the source; it'll come from someplace else
<whitequark>
and as for testing... why test for a bug if you can avoid it?
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<Senjai>
Its not a bug.
<Senjai>
Honestly, if destructive vs non destructive methods are something your worried about you have much larger issues
<Senjai>
Also, I can't imagine your life in C.
<Senjai>
And you test everything. Always.
<Senjai>
Clients rely on sound code, tests ensure the integrity of your codebase, and tells you when changes you make in x break things in y.
<whitequark>
using destructive update could or could not result in a bug. using a nondestructive one never does. the choice is pretty clear to me
<Senjai>
whitequark: The only difference between destructive and non desctructive is modifying the data in place. What you do with the data after it has been modified is the same
<Senjai>
And there are explicit patterns in place where the sound design of some applications require the ability to mutate foreign objects. In ruby these are donated with ! at the end to indicate that it is a destructive operation. By convention, many of these methods include a reference to self as an arguement so its explicit there would be operations on or involving self by calling this method.
<Senjai>
Your case is, a programmer can use tool x wrong and break his thumb, doesn't make the tool bad. It just means the programmer isn't using it properly
<Senjai>
In order to split a comma seperated string I could use the CSV stdlib to do it, or I could just call split(","), doesn't mean CSV doesn't do what it's supposed to, it just means the programmer is an idiot
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<yxhuvud>
If you split on ',', then you would be an idiot, yes.
<katlogic>
Senjai: I'm afraid the reason in ruby is much more pragmating. Not spamming gc with new objects when you can avoid it.
<katlogic>
*pragmatic
<Senjai>
yxhuvud: Would depend on the input. I'm not talking about a flush csv file.
<Senjai>
katlogic: I agree
<whitequark>
katlogic: "not spamming GC" is not a good reason for anything that's not on a known hot path.
<yxhuvud>
Yes, it is the dependence on input that is the problem with splitting on ,.
<whitequark>
(and it matters even less on a runtime with a good generational GC... MRI certainly does not shine here.)
<katlogic>
whitequark: Indeed, it makes sense only in hotpath where otherwise, a lot of dummy objects would be generated needlessly.
<katlogic>
Such is the curse of tracing GCs.
<Senjai>
whitequark: In the case you mentioned, there is no advantage for not modifying the array in place.
<Senjai>
There are also many many other times when I choose to modify things in place. And that's fine.
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<whitequark>
Senjai: there is also no advantage to modifying it, and unless you know for sure that it's not aliased or that the aliasing is deliberate, it's simpler to make a copy
<katlogic>
Other than that, whitequark is right, non-destructive is way to go unless your allocator sucks (ie you get allocator overhead, which is kinda lame excuse but it's the truth in ruby sometimes), or we're talking *really* large arrays and indeed you need to save memory.
<Senjai>
Its not aliased
<whitequark>
I'm not talking about literally your gist, I'm talking about its real use-case, where it would be extracted into a method and fed data from somewhere else.
<whitequark>
you can't, in general, say whether it's aliased or not
<katlogic>
Usually, this is most visible in gmp code where one has to be very careful if to use destructive or not.
<Senjai>
I have no issue with that. Especially in a private interface
* katlogic
whispers: functional PL purists often have OCD spasms when they see state being mutated
<Senjai>
And then theres things along the lines of: updator.update!(self)
<Senjai>
s/updator/updater
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* whitequark
pats katlogic
<Senjai>
Then thats a matter of opinion. There are perfectly valid reasons and patterns for doing so.
<whitequark>
only thing I'm saying is: when in doubt, make a copy. when you know for sure what are you doing, do whatever is needed
<whitequark>
it is a matter of opinion, yes.
<katlogic>
In terms of ruby, the performance point is kinda moot for me. Ruby code is slow, copies or not. Very rarely one cares to avoid gc overhead.
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<Senjai>
Right, when in doubt. If you within the responsibilities of your application, or a class, where you have complete transparency there is no issue with it
<Senjai>
katlogic: No, just readable, concise code.
<katlogic>
Senjai: That's just matter of subjective opinion. I though we're arguing fundamental points?
<Senjai>
katlogic: Fair.
<Senjai>
Yes, performance isn't a thing for ruby developers.
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<katlogic>
For example in Lua, mutating state is often worth it because the VM is fast, but the GC is horrible. Conversely, in case hyper-optimizing static compilers, mutators often break AA, and functional style / no mutated state is often well worth it.
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<Senjai>
I would agree.
<Senjai>
That said, in ruby, it's not realy worth doing anything for the sake of the gc or performance. Ruby is a language meant for conveniance and ease of use over performance.
<Senjai>
To that point, if you're using ruby, the GC and internals shouldn't really factor into your development.
<Senjai>
It's meant to provide that high of a level.
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<Senjai>
I agree with whitequark in that you shouldn't mutate things that don't belong to you, or you dont know where they came from. When you do know where they came from I argue its fine.
<katlogic>
Indeed then its just matter of subjective purity :) Mutators are c-style lazy - why-copy-if-i-dont-have-to :)
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<katlogic>
Also I can't really approve of no-mutators-eva religious cults like Haskell, since any kind of tangible (as in, widely used) code is yet to be produced.
<Senjai>
Then we agree :)
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<whitequark>
katlogic: there's plenty of tangible haskell code, just ask, say, Facebook
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<whitequark>
and for that matter, Haskell does have state, you just have to opt in explicitly (IO or ST monads...)
<katlogic>
whitequark: This is entirely new level of opinionated argument though :)
<katlogic>
What I argue is: Haskell is not general purpose, but niche. Just like prolog.
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<katlogic>
Care for rebuttal?
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<whitequark>
I'm not even sure what "general purpose" even means today
<whitequark>
is Lua general purpose? is Go? (pretty sure it's not) is Ruby?
<whitequark>
is, well, C?
<katlogic>
Indeed its been watered down. But lets use Fortran and C since its been ranted on slashdot recently.
<whitequark>
you wouldn't write numeric workloads in Ruby, and webapps in C
<katlogic>
Generaly purpose as in, most problems are easily expressed in straight-forward turing machine.
<whitequark>
that's a bold and not necessarily well-supported statement
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<Senjai>
katlogic: I like you
<katlogic>
whitequark: Indeed its an opinionated argument. Though the empirical evidence tends to support it. It stands on weak legs mostly because the argument is psychological, rather than purely intrinsic/academic one.
<whitequark>
how can you even quantify over "most problems"? what *are* "most problems"? do you have a classification of problems to support your argument?
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<katlogic>
whitequark: Yes.
<katlogic>
whitequark: ocaml is general purpose, haskell is not.
<katlogic>
What about now?
<katlogic>
(I think you've figured I intentianally use generalized half-ignorant examples :)
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<Senjai>
I am also anti appealing to ethos by throwing around names like Facebook
<Senjai>
That doesn't add any merit to anything
<whitequark>
Senjai: they have a sizable amount of deployed haskell code, which is the only thing I wanted to say
<katlogic>
whitequark: There is highly niche code for ocaml, but also complete P2P multi-protocol client written in ocaml.
<katlogic>
Can't say that exactly for Haskell, perhaps some very primitive web tools?
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<Senjai>
Cool, they also have a sizeable amount of code, an a large number of employees (more than they need) and every company you could possibly buy
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<Senjai>
doesn't add anything to the arguement. They're just another company like any other
<katlogic>
(tl;dr: Haskell sucks at interacting with external world which must have its inherently mutable state encapsulated.)
<whitequark>
katlogic: on the other hand, it wins at the workloads which mostly perform data processing, and have the interaction reduced to a minimum
<whitequark>
batch workloads, so to say, as opposed to interactive ones
<katlogic>
Indeed it might / does.
<katlogic>
But how is that not niche?
<katlogic>
Finance quant, big data?
* whitequark
shrugs
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<whitequark>
you can keep altering your definition to support your point, I guess
<katlogic>
whitequark: So it boils down whether we agree to call map-reduce-sque tasks as general purpose propgramming.
<whitequark>
I don't really care for or against haskell
<katlogic>
whitequark: If I keep backtracking please point out so. I tend to do that a lot once someone argues well against the original point.
<Senjai>
I feel like there is too much agreement for this place that's supposed to be the internet
<whitequark>
ok. what I mean here is that "niche" can be stretched pretty arbitrarily
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<Senjai>
whitequark: Okay, less than 5% of production systems
<katlogic>
whitequark: What I meant is overspecialized, and thought it was generally the usual meaning.
<whitequark>
how do you define it? small amount of programmers employed? small amount of machines? small amount of possibly solved tasks? small amount of economic gain?
<katlogic>
whitequark: Like, um, niche markets. Long tail. Paretto power distribution. But not mainstream.
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<katlogic>
whitequark: One IRC, especially freenode I'd measure things in terms of hype.
<whitequark>
arguing about technical qualities of something by its adoption is pointless, as network effects account for much more in adoption of software than technical qualities
<katlogic>
Ie the number of buzzwords invented for it.
<whitequark>
I mean, if using that principle, Java, C++ and C are top 3 best languages ever
<whitequark>
you could surely say that, but I find the classification pointless.
<katlogic>
whitequark: Indeed. You might have your own set of well-meant academic rules based on merit.
<katlogic>
Unfortunatelly that is just cognitive bias. World is not just.
<whitequark>
well, then you just get a tautology
<whitequark>
why is X good [popular]? because X is good [popular]!
<whitequark>
(hence, pointless)
<whitequark>
or a slightly deep analysis: why is X popular? because of a really awesome marketing strategy.
<katlogic>
whitequark: Not necessarily. Java, C++ and C sure won because of chance, but there is reason why COBOL, or for that matter more pure functional languages in general didnt.
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<katlogic>
whitequark: Don't you think imperative (and perhaps OO) style is more closer to general human mindset?
<whitequark>
I don't claim a thorough understanding of the way human mind works
<katlogic>
a leads to b. b changes a and a might not lead to b after that.
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<whitequark>
if you have ever watched people learning their first language, the fact that = destructively assigns is very often a source of confusion
<katlogic>
Counterintuitively, that is what human brain, when generalized is better at understanding, than say, tail recursion and lazy evaluation.
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<katlogic>
(I'm trying to point color on masses, not individuals)
<whitequark>
I don't think there is any innate understanding of programming; you have to learn a lot either way
<whitequark>
and talking about cognitive biases, your opinion of what's easier to understand *is* biased (but so is mine; it's not a good way of figuring out the truth.)
<katlogic>
whitequark: So, let's have a though experiment. Say you are learning programming for first time. You'd be inclined to prefer SSA, over variable reuse?
<katlogic>
What about loops? And phi nodes?
* whitequark
sighs
<katlogic>
Functional constructs? Are you sure?
<Senjai>
defeat!
* Senjai
hits gavel
<whitequark>
I don't have an answer to your question, because it's not possible to make such an experiment
<Senjai>
Simply google how to program.
<whitequark>
I cannot make an unbiased claim about what's easier to learn when I already know it
<katlogic>
whitequark: Indeed we've hit stalemate. Lets keep it 'its psychological and psychology is not exact science'.
<Senjai>
You dont get scheme or haskell anywhere near the front page
<katlogic>
whitequark: That much we can agree on :)
<whitequark>
Senjai: see my statement about network effects above.
<Senjai>
Im referring to the ease of use katlogic pointed out
<Senjai>
whitequark: Also, adoption doesn't matter nearly as much as the cost of development
<Senjai>
developing in haskell is more expensive because of its lackluster adoption rate.
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<whitequark>
katlogic: there *could* be such an experiment, but we're not going anywhere by just arging on IRC, so yes
<Senjai>
skilled professionals are hard to find, and production systems crumble under the expectations a language like Haskell places on the developer
<whitequark>
Senjai: excellent, now you're speaking in facts
<whitequark>
[source?]
<whitequark>
or even simpler, have you tried to hire a Haskell programmer? have you talked to anyone who did?
<katlogic>
Unfortunately economical indicators are not proven to be the primary cause.
<whitequark>
or did you just pull all that out of thin air, because it is "obvious" ? ;)
<Senjai>
Supply and demand. Basic economics.
<Senjai>
Yes I have, more recently we had to find a cold fusion developer for a legacy codebase
<whitequark>
coldfusion is FP now?
<Senjai>
No, but its a language struggling with its adoption
<Senjai>
Also, looking at adoption, you also have the cost to develop more and more tools in house.
<katlogic>
Senjai: Economics seems to be always later in causality, though. supply and demand is closed cycle, but the factors bootstrapping it dont come from economics itself, there is initial factor (like hype, actual merit, government support, sentiment of time etc).
<whitequark>
or a more concretely: I don't know anyone who voluntarily writes coldfusion in their free time. I'm aware of a lot of people who do the same with Haskell and will happily go work for someone who'll hire them to write it.
<Senjai>
katlogic: It's a cyclic relationship
<Senjai>
katlogic: and reflexive based on perception
<Senjai>
less jobs means less programmers, less programmers means less jobs.
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<whitequark>
assuming people become well-versed in language X solely because of availability of jobs for X, that would be true
<Senjai>
Either one increases the negative perception of the language and reinforces it down that path until it becoms unsustainably undervalued where it would correct itself
<Senjai>
so yes, economics
<whitequark>
in other words, data or gtfo
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<katlogic>
Megamorphics and trace exits in general are super tricky issue tho. How to concatenate traces efficiently, rematerialize registers in stack slots and such. So far tracing works for small hot paths, for huge object code blobs, V8/HotSpot approach seems to be more viable.
<katlogic>
So perfect solution would probably be the combination of the two.
<apeiros>
oh, git subtree - never heard of that, *investigates*
<katlogic>
Method-callgraph at a time like V8/HotSpot do, but trace for hot paths which dont have much side exits. After that, JIT beats static compiler.
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<whitequark>
hmm
<katlogic>
whitequark: As for simple guards (like you mentioned, checking for type tags), this is why tracing is used in the first place. You record the types and then hoist/eliminate the redundant guards.
<katlogic>
Like LLVM would do.
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<whitequark>
I wonder which form does LLVM accept when used in FTL
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<katlogic>
Method-callgraph cant apply aggresive optimizations like this because ultimately, the code stays general on method level. So it is slower in hot path, but also better at handling megamorphic sites (since state-resynch is trivial).
* apeiros
still reads FTL as "faster than light"
<apeiros>
too much sci-fi games, I guess
* whitequark
reads it like that too
<apeiros>
hah! :D
<whitequark>
makes it extra awesome
<apeiros>
^^
<whitequark>
FTL JIT!
<whitequark>
Just-before-time, should be called
<katlogic>
whitequark: LLVM is *very* good DFG/SSA form optimizer, but that works well only for static code.
<katlogic>
Either you lower dynamic language using tracing, or emitting shitload of guards with runtime hints (like V8) or just be lazy and do the asm.js hack.
<whitequark>
don't ever mention asm.js in the same room as me
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<katlogic>
I like the V8 guys attitude about asm.js "we'll get there just by using our heuristics, no need to special-case it".
<whitequark>
exactly
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<random-spam6>
hey i am wondering if somebody can help explain how to make sure i dont mess up because i forget or dont forget to use sudo when installing gems
<apeiros>
random-spam6: you shouldn't use sudo to install gems
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<ljarvis>
moin
<apeiros>
moin ljarvis
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<ljarvis>
hale
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hale
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<andrewvos>
cale
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<ljarvis>
braille
<avdi>
whitequark: as someone who just recently heard of asm.js, what don't you like about it?
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<whitequark>
avdi: it's just a (necessary) formalization of emscripten output, touted as the biggest breakthrough in decades
<whitequark>
actually, even whetherh it is necessary is debatable. V8 guys don't think it is needed at all
<whitequark>
anyway, no one except emscripten developers and JS engine authors should ever have heard about asm.js, instead everyone and their dog debates "what it means for the open web"
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<SteelGolem>
but that license fee
<imperator>
eclipse is free, lots of plugins
<SteelGolem>
i'm much too broke to buy things
<imperator>
get your company to get you a license
<SteelGolem>
i don't have a company, i'm just a hobbyist
<imperator>
ok
<SteelGolem>
thanks for the suggestion though
<imperator>
then i'd say eclipse
<imperator>
though i haven't used it in quite a while
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<SteelGolem>
grabbing it now
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<apeiros>
chris2: I really can't understand people who are like that. I mean I can understand if somebody has a temporary burst. but permanently and consistently like him? I'd really like to see inside such peoples head for a day or so to see what's going on…
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<katlogic>
Theo de raadt used to be like that, perhaps even DJB
<katlogic>
Arrogant people eventually do cool of with age, but until their near 30s are almost unbearable.
<apeiros>
curious whether it's a form of narcissism
<apeiros>
imperator: maybe just my abysmal google-fu
<apeiros>
anyway, back to implement routing and basic JSON exchange in jacob :D
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<havenwood>
apeiros: Rack based?
<apeiros>
havenwood: yes
<apeiros>
that part would be somewhat insane to leave off :D
<havenwood>
apeiros: i wanna see it! hurry up.. :)
<apeiros>
when the demo app is usable and the setup process halfway sane ;-)
<apeiros>
I wouldn't even call it alpha at the moment
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<whitequark>
apeiros: oh, I can understand him very well
<whitequark>
it's just that even when you think "YOU ARE A FUCKING MORON AND A DISGRACE TO HUMANITY", it's never effective to yell exactly that at the person, not if you want them to realize that they, indeed, are
<imperator>
i find a good pop to the face does the trick
<SteelGolem>
imperator going with aptana for now, eclipse far too complicated to set up when there are alternatives
<whitequark>
katlogic: djb is arrogant?
<whitequark>
although, now that I think of it, I've never seen djb to actually communicate
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<whitequark>
it's like he makes code and papers materialize out of thin air
<apeiros>
whitequark: you mean we shouldn't tell him or he shouldn't tell us? :D
<whitequark>
apeiros: no, I mean I don't behave like him because it's (as Felipe's example clearly shows) inefficient
<katlogic>
whitequark: Nah, he's just good at pissing other people.
<whitequark>
not because I, say, don't want to
<whitequark>
katlogic: oh? how so?
<apeiros>
katlogic: the first thing I saw from him I thought "ok, I understand why he's ticked off"
<katlogic>
I suppose the difference is that DJB has earned the _right_ to be arrogant.
<katlogic>
just like linus
<apeiros>
but having talked to him personally, I now know he's just an ass.
<imperator>
SteelGolem, thought aptana was an eclipse plugin, but good
<apeiros>
he isn't just behaving like a jerk when he got "wronged"
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<whitequark>
katlogic: I mean, I want to read something by djb, I'm curious why you think so
<SteelGolem>
imperator it can be, but it has a standalone as well
<apeiros>
whitequark: I don't think you're even remotely like felipec. And not just because you have composure.
<SteelGolem>
so your information isn't wrong
<imperator>
ah, ok
<whitequark>
you have clearly never heard the things I said to my wall.
<katlogic>
whitequark: DJB rarely makes mistakes. Very rarely. And he's quite vocal about it too. But when he makes a mistake, he's quite hard pressed to admit it. Eg integer overflow in qmail - arguing that "It's only for 64bit machines and you need to transfer 2gb". Maybe he was right in 2005, but as time progressed he made an ass of himself. http://www.guninski.com/where_do_you_want_billg_to_go_today_4.html
<apeiros>
whitequark: I don't speak russian either, so it's not like it'd change something if I had :D
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<katlogic>
whitequark: In my book arrogance is this kind of behavior.
<katlogic>
Just like theo de raadt claiming "openbsd not vuln in 7 years" when kids mock him from compromised cvs.openbsd.org hostname on efnet.
<whitequark>
katlogic: ah I see
<katlogic>
Now DJB has my high respect because he knows his shit, but imagine if he made a mistake in crypto which only now sees some wider adoption.
<arrubin>
katlogic: I still rather have him on my project than 10 average C developers.
<katlogic>
(notably 25519 NTOR handshake in tor)
<whitequark>
either of them is worth *any* number of average C developers
<katlogic>
I've my reservations about theo, but DJB sure knows his shit.
<whitequark>
because no matter how many average developers you have, they aren't going to design curve25519
<katlogic>
Heck, even felipe is ok when he speaks code, but not mailing list.
<whitequark>
theo has his own nice sandbox though
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<whitequark>
oh god, they *still* purge VAX/VMS out of OpenSSL
<katlogic>
whitequark: 25519 is hard math stuff though. The problem with it is that there is no consensus. NIST curves have some nice backing research and a lot of people actually nod head "GF(p) and cofactor 1 are ok curves".
<katlogic>
whitequark: Now, although nobody managed to disprove it, non-GF(p) and cofactor 8 is just too novel. Its been *only* DJB pushing this curve. The problem is simply that he didnt pursue other crypto gurus to ack his claims (most likely because alienation incuded by his personna).
<whitequark>
hmmm
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<whitequark>
which patterns does your input data have?
<whitequark>
it's not entirely clear from the example
<rhizome>
you mean the file-naming convention? just client-supplied, but I suppose I could rename them more in-line with the captions and snarf them from there. is that what you mean?
<centrx>
rhizome, If you knew the rules of the convention, you could generate these data dynamically
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<rhizome>
or if i created them :)
<rhizome>
the rule, that is
<rhizome>
rules. erf, morning breath.
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<SteelGolem>
p( anobject ) and anobject.inspect seems to only be calling its to_s function
<SteelGolem>
is there a new way to do these things?
<jhass>
define a proper .inspect
<SteelGolem>
oh, okay
<SteelGolem>
this book is probably old
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<SteelGolem>
errrrr so if i DON'T define a to_s, .inspect prints out what i was expecting
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<imperator>
apeiros, i...just use a hash
<imperator>
i'm old school
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<apeiros>
imperator: aaand how do you do that in a method definition?
<apeiros>
unless you mean def foo(**kwargs), which is a non-option
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<apeiros>
(beats the purpose of having kwargs)
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<zenspider>
argh! I swear my euler code is right!
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<zenspider>
I could use a sanity check
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<zenspider>
I'm trying to do http://projecteuler.net/problem=87 and I SWEAR I have it coded up right. I most likely do, but am misinterpreting the requirements... tho in this case, the wording is pretty unambiguous
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<andrewvos>
show the code
<andrewvos>
Thanks for nerd sniping me btw
<andrewvos>
I managed to stick off euler for a year or so