apeiros changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: Ruby 2.1.0; 2.0.0-p353; 1.9.3-p484: http://ruby-lang.org || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com || RubyConf 2013 at http://www.justin.tv/confreaks
<rubyQuestion> centrx, that would give me @x = 32, and @y = 56...which are wrong
<rubyQuestion> so initially, @x = 8 and @y = 8
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<centrx> Yes
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<rubyQuestion> @x = 3 * @x + @y for @x equal 8 and @y = 8 therefore making @x = 32 @y = @x + (3 + 1) * @y then it would be 32 + (3+1) * 8 which would make @y 64
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<rubyQuestion> wait...i think that's right actually...wow
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<rubyQuestion> more along the same question, sorry to keep bothering...i dont understand programming, nor do i want to, but i gotta take it for my major. anyway, the same question, but second part
<rubyQuestion> when it says super(1, 4) what exactly is it inheriting from above in Class T?
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<rubyQuestion> does that mean run 1, 4 in the S class...like i did with (6, 5) in the first part?
<rubyQuestion> and those values of @x and @y carry down to the T class?
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<wioux> i'm writing an extension that's going to receive signals from glib -- is it safe to rb_proc_call within the handler?
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<drbrain> wioux: if it is on the same thread, yes
<drbrain> wioux: if it is not on the same thread you'll need to call back into the ruby thread(s)
<drbrain> wioux: if the operation is blocking you'll want to use rb_thread_call_without_gvl()
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<drbrain> wioux: I have an example here using libpcap and call_with_gvl/call_without_gvl: https://github.com/drbrain/capp/blob/master/ext/capp/capp.c
<wioux> drbrain thanks
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<drbrain> wioux: for capp, libpcap blocks then calls back, so I have to re-acquire the GVL to call ruby methods inside the callback (so I use both)
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<pipework> drbrain: You're a seattlerb person, I hear. Do you use hoe?
<pipework> I'm the sort of pipe that prefers less while doing more with it, so hoe seems like an extra thing that does nice helpful things, but I don't really need it.
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<NemesisD> hey guys. i'm experiencing some weird network juju with rubygems and my machine. i'm trying to install bundler and it just times out with an Errno::ETIMEDOUT, yet i can hit the same url from my browser no problem
<centrx> Try #ruby
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<centrx> Quiet hour and #ruby is active
<NemesisD> thanks
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<ddfreyne> I wonder when the #ruby vs #ruby-lang battle will end.
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<omegahm> ddfreyne there's a battle?
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<ddfreyne> A very quiet battle.
<Nilium> News to me. I just chat in both.
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<mph> I am hoping that someone can advise to solve an "undefined method `require_library_or_gem'" error trying to use use the activerecord-odbc-adapter
<Nilium> Sounds like rails, try the rails room
<certainty> i always thought that #ruby-lang is about the implementations of ruby and probably the language "standard" wheras #ruby is more about general programming problems where the language happens to be ruby
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<mph> good point. thanks.
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<yorickpeterse> morning
<wnd> I have no intention to sound like a smart ass, but I always thought that #ruby-lang was the official channel because it's the only channel mentioned on https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/community/. In fact, I didn't even try blindly joining #ruby because I wasn't sure which network was The One for Ruby.
<Nilium> It is the official channel.
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<Nilium> Just happens that there are two rooms and they're both full of people.
<mph> worthless
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<Nilium> It's funny when people think they're entitled to an answer.
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<Nilium> Funny and sad, actually, but mostly funny.
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<yorickpeterse> GUYS PLEASE HELP ME WITH "RUNTIMEERROR: SOME ERROR"
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<wnd> I haven't seen that lately, but I also find it amusing when people get upset for not getting an answer on IRC
<yorickpeterse> FUCK YOU FOLKS FOR NOT HELPING ME WITHIN 2 SECONDS
<DefV> I hate asking questions on IRC because of that
<DefV> I always have the need to point out "I'm not an idiot, I tried these 4 approaches first"
<Nilium> I just use IRC as a way of letting my stupidity out at full blast
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<Nilium> Also to ramble about things that interest only me and my hatred of web dev
<wnd> I think one of the best things about asking on IRC is that I sometimes figure out the answer on my own only because I'm trying to properly elaborate my question and methods I've tried to approach the problem.
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<tbuehlmann> typical rubber ducking
<Nilium> I've never gotten around to posting a question on Stack Overflow precisely because explaining the problem means I find the answer
<yorickpeterse> I use IRC as my personal blog
<yorickpeterse> this channel greatly appreciates that
<Nilium> Though that probably just means I'm not dealing with very difficult problems
<tbuehlmann> no, you use IRC as your anger ball thing
<yorickpeterse> That's the same
<Nilium> I for one find your personal blog very erotic, yorick
<yorickpeterse> it's pretty hard
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<certainty> i use IRC because i hope to find neo here who will free me and get me out of the matrix
<certainty> and because i can
<yorickpeterse> For only 499 EUR I'll get you out of the matrix
<certainty> yorickpeterse: that's a fair price. Deal!
<yorickpeterse> pay first
<certainty> and just to be clear /kick and +b doesn't count as getting me out of the matrix
<yorickpeterse> don't have +o anyway
<certainty> yorickpeterse: i'll pay you with real money once i'm out
<Silex> does getting ripped of 499 EUR counts as being awaken from your childish dream? :)
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<Silex> and thus out of the "matrix"
<ruskie> lol
<certainty> :)
<Silex> :)
<yorickpeterse> certainty: this is starting to sound like some ponzi scheme
<Silex> just like bitcoin!
* Silex hides /o\
<Silex> hahaha
<certainty> yorickpeterse: who are you? the cops? if so, that weed doesn't belong to me, somebody must have put that into my pocket
<certainty> lol
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<yorickpeterse> doesn't matter
<yorickpeterse> STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM
<yorickpeterse> NOBODY SMOKES THE LAW ON MY WATCH
<yorickpeterse> I'LL CONFISCATE ANY STOLEN GOODS AND THEN IT'S OFF TO JAIL
<matti> Hi yorickpeterse
<yorickpeterse> hi
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<yorickpeterse> whitequark: ping
<yorickpeterse> OMG Y U NO REPLY RIGHT AWAY (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
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<whitequark> yorickpeterse: pong
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<whitequark> and I just woke up
<yorickpeterse> ok good, I have the perfect thing to wake you up
<yorickpeterse> whitequark: do you know if there's a way in Racc to clean this up https://gist.github.com/YorickPeterse/887e01a1989618e11f71#file-parser-y-L41-L48 ?
<yorickpeterse> That is, instead of specifying every possible combination specify a wildcard of some sort (similar to a Regexp's * operator)
<whitequark> no, there is nothing in racc.
<yorickpeterse> bah
<whitequark> well
<whitequark> you can simplify that, sorta
<yorickpeterse> basically I want a way where I can say
<yorickpeterse> whitespace* comma whitespace*
<yorickpeterse> or something like that
<whitequark> a: T_DOUBLE_ARROW const | T_DOUBLE_ARROW whitespaces const; b: a | whitespaces a
<whitequark> the + and * operators exist in Menhir, the parser generator I used in Foundry
<yorickpeterse> does Menhir have Ruby bindings of some sort?
<yorickpeterse> I don't really mind using something else, Racc is just the most commonly used
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<whitequark> Menhir generates strictly OCaml code
<yorickpeterse> hm
<yorickpeterse> alternatively I'd have to use kpeg but meh
<whitequark> screw kpeg
<whitequark> grhm
<whitequark> if Racc wasn't so horribly written I'd extend it maybe
<yorickpeterse> I was thinking of binding Lemon to Ruby at some point
<whitequark> + and * are relatively trivial
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<whitequark> no, that won't really fly
<yorickpeterse> how so? Shouldn't be too hard to do
<yorickpeterse> Lemon is pretty basic code wise
<whitequark> for some reason parser's ruby.y is written in ruby and not c
<whitequark> you have to transfer stuff between rubyland and cland, and it sucks
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<whitequark> not to mention it doesn't work very well on jruby
<yorickpeterse> I don't care too much for jruby in this case
<yorickpeterse> it's a compiler, I don't see people using that on jruby any time soon
<whitequark> headius will be sad :(
<yorickpeterse> plus it uses ruby-llvm so I doubt that would work in the first place
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<yorickpeterse> err wait, that uses FFI
<whitequark> ruby-llvm works on jruby
<yorickpeterse> I'm not a huge fan of Racc but it seems to be the least suck
<whitequark> what do you think I was going to run rubyfoundry on, mri? :)
<whitequark> exactly
<whitequark> racc is a local optimum, which is not very high on... pretty much any scale, except maybe performance
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<yorickpeterse> last time I looked into parslet, which was like 2 years ago, I remember it being a pita to use
<whitequark> I can't stand peg parsers
<whitequark> to begin, all ruby peg parsers I've seen have such absurd memory usage it is not even funny
<whitequark> allocating an object for every character, then for every pair of characters, then ...
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<whitequark> and they're slow. treetop parsed a 8K file with a rather trivial grammar for about 100ms
<whitequark> (that last part *might* have been my hands, but I think it is unlikely)
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<m__s> hi, can someone help me... I want to create array that contains fields like for example array[1].name array[1].surname I have no idea how to define it :/
<m__s> when im using array = Array.new i cant use it with array[x].name :/
<yorickpeterse> what?
<yorickpeterse> You have to add values to the array that respond to `name`
<m__s> something like address book
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<yorickpeterse> >> person = Struct.new(:name); people = [person.new('John'), person.new('Alice')]
<eval-in> yorickpeterse => [#<struct name="John">, #<struct name="Alice">] (https://eval.in/101580)
<yorickpeterse> >> person = Struct.new(:name); people = [person.new('John'), person.new('Alice')]; people[0].name
<eval-in> yorickpeterse => "John" (https://eval.in/101581)
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<m__s> hm...
<m__s> and how to do it with name, surname ?
<m__s> struct.new(:name, :surname) ?
<yorickpeterse> Just as how you create any other object
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<yorickpeterse> I assume you're new to Ruby?
<m__s> yes
<m__s> im trying to learn something writing some code
<pipework> yorickpeterse: `new javascriptObject`? trololol
<yorickpeterse> Ah ok so an Array just contains values of anything
<yorickpeterse> e.g.
<yorickpeterse> >> [10, 20, 30]
<eval-in> yorickpeterse => [10, 20, 30] (https://eval.in/101582)
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<yorickpeterse> >> [10, 20, 30][0]
<eval-in> yorickpeterse => 10 (https://eval.in/101583)
<yorickpeterse> >> [10, 20, 30][0].name
<eval-in> yorickpeterse => undefined method `name' for 10:Fixnum (NoMethodError) ... (https://eval.in/101584)
<yorickpeterse> ^ that fails because the Fixnum class doesn't define the method `name`
<yorickpeterse> but you can for example create your own classes and store those
<m__s> that one i know :)
<yorickpeterse> >> class Person; attr_accessor :name; end; alice = Person.new; alice.name = 'Alice'; [alice]
<eval-in> yorickpeterse => [#<Person:0x418b62bc @name="Alice">] (https://eval.in/101585)
<yorickpeterse> >> class Person; attr_accessor :name; end; alice = Person.new; alice.name = 'Alice'; [alice].first.name
<eval-in> yorickpeterse => "Alice" (https://eval.in/101586)
<m__s> ok thank you
<m__s> ill try to use it in my script
<m__s> thanks!
<yorickpeterse> np
<yorickpeterse> pipework: no
<yorickpeterse> Hashie::Mash
<yorickpeterse> trololol
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<pipework> yorickpeterse: You're evil.
<yorickpeterse> I hate hashie mash
<yorickpeterse> Good thing my crusade to get it out of our codebase is nearly complete
<yorickpeterse> Just some old crappy projects that still use it
<benlovell> uh man, hashie mash
<benlovell> rage
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<pipework> yorickpeterse: mash and hwia
<pipework> Does not want.
<yorickpeterse> hwia?
<pipework> ActiveSupport::HashWithIndifferentAccess
<yorickpeterse> oh that fucker
<yorickpeterse> or ActiveSupport::OrderedHash
<yorickpeterse> I have a test nowadays in some project to ensure Hashie stays out
<yorickpeterse> I should probably add that one to some other projects too
<pipework> Ugh
<pipework> raise IFuckingHateYou if defined? Hashie
<ljarvis> >> raise '..'
<eval-in> ljarvis => .. (RuntimeError) ... (https://eval.in/101591)
<ljarvis> >> raise '...', caller.drop(2)
<eval-in> ljarvis => exception class/object expected (TypeError) ... (https://eval.in/101592)
<ljarvis> >> raise RuntimeError, '...', caller.drop(2)
<eval-in> ljarvis => ... (RuntimeError) ... (https://eval.in/101594)
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<ljarvis> >> RUBY_VERSION
<eval-in> ljarvis => "2.1.0" (https://eval.in/101598)
<yorickpeterse> http://hastebin.com/raw/qomugoxaju get on my level scrubs
<ljarvis> >> "herp".send(:p, "derp")
<eval-in> ljarvis => "derp" ... (https://eval.in/101600)
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<pipework> yorickpeterse: Lul, weak.
<ljarvis> >> "foo".Array
<eval-in> ljarvis => private method `Array' called for "foo":String (NoMethodError) ... (https://eval.in/101601)
<pipework> defined? or gtfo
<ljarvis> should totally make kernel methods public for all the hax
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<yorickpeterse> pipework: defined? would fail if some third-party thing uses it
<yorickpeterse> that I have no control over
<pipework> yorickpeterse: Um, if it's in the runtime at all, people can use it.
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<yorickpeterse> Yes, but that's not the point
<yorickpeterse> I don't want people to get to the point where they themselves include it
<pipework> So defined? is the best thing. Throw a warning. warn "Hashie is sad." if defined? Hashie
<pipework> yorickpeterse: So it's okay if they just use it without including it?
<yorickpeterse> You're not getting what I'm going at
<yorickpeterse> say you use gem X
<yorickpeterse> which uses gem Y
<yorickpeterse> which uses Hashie
<yorickpeterse> You have no control over that
<yorickpeterse> you might not even know it
<yorickpeterse> But if you were to use defined? in a test that would lead to a failure
<pipework> Generally, I do.
<pipework> I don't put it in an actual test.
<yorickpeterse> I just want to prevent people from including and using hashie themselves directly
<pipework> Just Kernel#warn about using it
<yorickpeterse> I hate warnings
<pipework> So if they don't include it but use Hashie directly by depending on the environment implicitly, it'll work.
<pipework> I hate you
<yorickpeterse> good thing I don't care :)
<pipework> :D
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<pipework> Good job then! Inferior checking is inferior! :D
<yorickpeterse> ljarvis: so how did the allnighter go?
<yorickpeterse> do you hate AWS enough already?
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<yorickpeterse> DERP
<yorickpeterse> I just nuked my dev DB
<yorickpeterse> fucking tests running in dev mode opposed to test mode
<ljarvis> yorickpeterse: it went ok actually
<ljarvis> ~3 hours downtime
<yorickpeterse> dayum
<yorickpeterse> that's quite the time
<ljarvis> aye, was hoping for closer to 2 hours as that's how long the test run took
<ljarvis> but I knew it'd be a while, which is why I done it at a retarded time
<ljarvis> also rds without provisional iops is kinda meh
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<yorickpeterse> Yeah it's not the best without them
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<yorickpeterse> we'll probably have to enable them at some point as well
<ljarvis> yeah I'm gonna research it next week
<ljarvis> it's quite a jump in cost
<yorickpeterse> Yeah, that's a downside of AWS :/
<yorickpeterse> it's so god damn expensive
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<ljarvis> heh, it's basically really cheap for tiny websites, and jumps to really expensive for anything with more than 3 visitors a day
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<yorickpeterse> Yeah, e.g. basic autoscaling changes can save you a shit ton
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<ljarvis> yep
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<ljarvis> I think switching to rds has saved us some storage costs and certainly general maintenance time costs
<ljarvis> and time.. uploading pg backups to s3 every night sucked
<yorickpeterse> I wonder where our Mongo backups go to, probably S3 too
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<yorickpeterse> hm except I can't find a bucket for it
<pipework> Maybe glacier?
<yorickpeterse> nope
<yorickpeterse> we don't use glacier
<yorickpeterse> to the wiki!
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<yorickpeterse> might be somewhere else, ah well
<yorickpeterse> we do have backups as we've had to restore plenty of times in the past
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<yorickpeterse> hmpf, Arel, y u so verbose
<yorickpeterse> though I can at least break this up into methods
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<ljarvis> heh, if it's something ar can do, no need for arel
<ljarvis> I only touch it if it's something too insane for ar to handle
<ljarvis> which happens to be a lot of stuff
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<yorickpeterse> meh, I don't like SQL fragments like that, too easy to put stupid stuff in by accident
<yorickpeterse> e.g. "oh I need some dynamic value, let me just slap that directly into the string"
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<m__s> yorickpeterse: can you help me with last thing?
<yorickpeterse> sure
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<m__s> ok, ill copy my code somewhere
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<yorickpeterse> BUNDLER STOP FUCKING INSTALLING AR 2.3
<yorickpeterse> FFS
<yorickpeterse> "oh durr he said `activerecord`, better use some stupid old version"
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<Silex> mmm?
<yorickpeterse> Bundler has this issue where it randomly bundles a decade old version of activerecord (at least for me)
<Silex> that sounds weird, especially the random part
<Silex> you can't reproduce it?
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<yorickpeterse> not really
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<charliesome> yorickpeterse: does the decades old version of AR satisfy your constraints?
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<yorickpeterse> No, it...concerns me
<yorickpeterse> (get it?)
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<headius> yorickpeterse: why wouldn't someone want to use a compiler on JRuby?
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<sam_> hi
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<sam_> if you run x=y in ruby, is that like a copy or like a reference ? I get mixed up, because somethings seem to be sticky, and so things are like a one-time copy
<sam_> after running x=y , those two variables continue to be independent and separate, right?
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<ljarvis> >> a = []; b = a; b << 1; a
<eval-in> ljarvis => [1] (https://eval.in/101655)
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<ljarvis> sam_: it's pretty easy to answer that in code
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<sam_> irb(main):001:0> a = []; b = a; b = ["1"]; a => []
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<ljarvis> sam_: you just reassigned b, not modified it
<sam_> ok
<sam_> what about this
<sam_> a = 1; b = a; b+=1; a
<sam_> => 1
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<sam_> in that case, it's incrementing b, not re-assigning it? no?
<ljarvis> no
<canton7> a = 1; b = a; b = b + 1; a; <= you've created an object 1, assigned it to both a and b, then created a new one that's 1 + 1 and assigned it to b
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<sam_> I believe this behavior differs, between PHP, Perl, and bash.
<sam_> it's slightly confusing.
<sam_> thank you for your reply
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<imperator> good morning
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<cout> imperator: what's honkin', honkie?
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<imperator> cout, just trying to convert some bsd code to ffi. what are you up to?
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<cout> imperator: work, work
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<ljarvis> yorickpeterse: what do you use for automation at work?
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<ljarvis> chruby y u no like me
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<yorickpeterse> ljarvis: automation in what sense?
<yorickpeterse> headius: it's not that, it's that this will be closed for quite some time and I just don't see people using it on non MRI for a while
<ljarvis> yorickpeterse: chef etc
<yorickpeterse> ljarvis: nothing, we image everything
<yorickpeterse> we don't use chef/puppet/etc
<ljarvis> ah ok
<ljarvis> so new instances just spawn on prebuilt amis?
<yorickpeterse> yes
<ljarvis> there's no inconsistencies with that?
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<yorickpeterse> No, we basically have 2 main AMIs: one for our Rails apps, one for our daemons
<yorickpeterse> (and a bunch of others for ElasticSearch, etc)
<yorickpeterse> We have a bunch of things pulled in from Github, etc, but during bootup and what not it's all in the AMI
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<yorickpeterse> So when you want to scale 100 instances you don't have to worry about overloading Puppet for example
<yorickpeterse> There's room for improvement, but I don't see Chef/Puppet working in our setup
<ljarvis> interesting
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<yorickpeterse> Ruby apps and such are pulled in from S3 upon bootup
<yorickpeterse> That's also how we deploy everything but our frontends: just reboot the instance
<yorickpeterse> Frontends require some Crapistrano crap but I'll be getting that out in the next 2-3 weeks
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<yorickpeterse> Apps themselves are pre-packaged and uploaded to S3, including pre-compiled Gems and what not
<ljarvis> they sound fat
<yorickpeterse> So the instances themselves are just that: instances, they don't track any application state themselves
<yorickpeterse> other than some ops related stuff such as Monit
<ljarvis> yeah just how it should be
<yorickpeterse> Package sizes aren't that bad
<yorickpeterse> our biggest one is...
<yorickpeterse> around 18MB
<yorickpeterse> uncompressed that's around 200MB if I'm not mistaken
<yxhuvud> not too bad. we have 3rd party rpms that are 2gb ..
<yxhuvud> .. and do funky stuff like swap the sctp stack to a different one
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<yorickpeterse> ours are just tarballs we unpack, that's it
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<yorickpeterse> protip: avoid Crapistrano with your life
<yorickpeterse> Not the tool but the concept is shite
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<yorickpeterse> heading home, bbl
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<threeifbywhiskey> What's the weirdest thing you've ever reduced over?
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<pipework> threeifbywhiskey: My alcohol consumption.
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<threeifbywhiskey> And was that a hash of days to volume?
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<threeifbywhiskey> I suppose I should have clarified I was talking about the #reduce method. :P
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<MouseTheLuckyDog> I'm looking at some code and I see these things called breadcrumbs, is this a term for somekind of programming concept?
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<threeifbywhiskey> A breadcrumb is like "Home -> Inventory -> Important Items".
<threeifbywhiskey> A little menu that lets you trace your steps backward in an interface.
<certainty> can also be anchors during a traversal
<threeifbywhiskey> Which is probably a more accurate answer to Mouse's question.
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<headius> yorickpeterse: ah
<pipework> MouseTheLuckyDog: They're UX items.
<pipework> Not really programming concepts.
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<MouseTheLuckyDog> I think I see is there a special way that breadcrumbs might be treated for example in MVC? What I'm seeing is that there are plugins and each plugin has a page and breadcrumbs.
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<pipework> The same way anything is treated special in MVC.
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<yorickpeterse> headius: btw, did you ever get around testing that String#scrub thing we did for Rbx?
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<headius> yeah, we need to port the transcoding backend for it to work on JRuby in general
<headius> the current transcoder we use is a two-stage via UTF-16, and it can't respond to certain types of encoding errors
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<headius> probably will happen for JRuby 9k, and probably will be me doing it
<yorickpeterse> hmm
<yorickpeterse> I'll have to harass some people to get feedback on the Rbx PR, otherwise I'll just merge it
<yorickpeterse> Might be slow but it's better than not having it at all
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<headius> yeah, you should just do it
<headius> It should be mostly correct, which is better than having nothing
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<Meths> When building different ruby versions for simultaneous installation, how is libruby-static.a supposed to be dealt with as by default it doesn't appear to be installed in a versioned directory?
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<darix> Meths: you can pass a param to make it versioned
<darix> Meths: --with-soname=ruby%{rb_binary_suffix} --program-suffix=%{rb_binary_suffix}
<Meths> Great, thanks.
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<darix> Meths: we usually pass something like 19 20 21 as %{rb_binary_suffix}
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<Meths> The with-soname is described as the base name for the lib so threw me a bit. Did make me wonder why I wasn't using --enable-shared though.
<Meths> That makes perfect sense with your example though.
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<darix> Meths: it even makes sense with shared lib
<darix> later
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<MouseTheLuckyDog> 'j #python
<MouseTheLuckyDog> Sprry
<MouseTheLuckyDog> Sorry
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<centrx> Get outta here you dirty Python snake!
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<whitequark> centrx: hey, that's not nice
<centrx> Sorry, just kidding
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<pipework> MouseTheLuckyDog: No, we're sorry that you're using python! :p
<pipework> whitequark: centrx isn't a nice person. :(
<whitequark> yeah the whole "we hate python" thing is not friendly to new people.
<centrx> I don't hate Python
<MouseTheLuckyDog> pipework, ssh don't tell them in #python, but I hate it. I just got an old python project to deal with so I have to deal with it.
<pipework> MouseTheLuckyDog: <333 three whole scoops for you.
<pipework> or six.
<MouseTheLuckyDog> I need them.
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<pipework> MouseTheLuckyDog: They're made with alcohol, I know you'll appreciate it.
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<threeifbywhiskey> But seriously, single-expression lambdas?
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<pipework> threeifbywhiskey: Weak lambdas are why python seems like a children's language to me.
<threeifbywhiskey> ^
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<threeifbywhiskey> Python is "prettier" JavaScript, Ruby is "uglier" Lisp.
<threeifbywhiskey> At least, this is how the languages feel to me after a while of using both.
<whitequark> Ruby is not Lisp by any measure
<whitequark> I mean, there are no macros.
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<threeifbywhiskey> Metaprogramming gets us a large part of the way there.
<whitequark> I get what you're saying, but (having said similar things once) I think it's confusing and not very useful.
<threeifbywhiskey> Macros allow you to use code to write code; is that not what we do with #define_method and the like?
<whitequark> macros are fundamentally syntactical
<threeifbywhiskey> Yes, fair enough.
<whitequark> besides, you can use macros to *read* code. you can't do that in Ruby.
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<whitequark> moreover... python and ruby are incredibly close in syntax, object model and target domain
<threeifbywhiskey> On the surface, sure, that's the case.
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<threeifbywhiskey> But when you actually use the languages for a suitable amount of time, they at least "feel" very different.
<threeifbywhiskey> I want to say len(dir([])) versus [].methods.size has something to do with that.
<centrx> Yeah, Python is backwards in many things
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<centrx> map(fn, array), you have to define the function and then pass it in this "built-in function" map
<whitequark> threeifbywhiskey: I would argue that differences are significant from end-user perspective but irrelevant in the language design
<threeifbywhiskey> No, not necessarily.
<centrx> List comprehension [x for y in z if x], backwards
<pipework> Ruby is smalltalk more than it being a lisp.
<whitequark> sure, Python has some bits shuffled in a different way. that's about it.
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<pipework> Macros are read-time things, ruby doesn't have read-time macros.
<threeifbywhiskey> pipework: You're right, but the focus on closures everywhere really does make Ruby feel pretty Lispy for me.
<centrx> my_class.my_new_attr = 1 suddenly creates a public instance attribute without warning
<pipework> Doesn't lisp not have lexical scoping though? Or does it?
<pipework> The symbol does, I guess.
<threeifbywhiskey> That's implementation-dependent, I would think.
<threeifbywhiskey> Aren't let bindings essentially lexical scoping?
<whitequark> yeah, let bindings are
<whitequark> all modern lisps (CL, scheme, etc) have lexical scoping
<threeifbywhiskey> Clojure.
* whitequark nods
<whitequark> iirc, CL initially had only dynamic scoping because it was invented before stack frames, and it was believed that lexical scoping can't be fast
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<whitequark> I can try to find a source for that
<threeifbywhiskey> And therein was begat funcall.
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<dingus_khan> centrx is too a nice person, as i chime in several hours later
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<centrx> Thanks!
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