apeiros changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: RIP Jim || Ruby 2.1.1; 2.0.0-p451; 1.9.3-p545: http://ruby-lang.org || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com
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<pipework> zenspider: Not http://www.uclibc.org/?
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<bnagy> we suck. :(
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<pipework> Lul, that response
<pipework> "Fix your manpages, then I'll fix a programming language."
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<bnagy> "dude I read the manpage and I'm pretty sure you're wrong, and your 6 refs are TL;DR"
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<centrx> Why does SecureRandom use OpenSSL first anyway/
<centrx> or at all
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<bnagy> absolutely NFI
<centrx> Doesn't help that the bug reporter should have just said "That manpage refers to /dev/random not /dev/urandom"
<bnagy> Users should be very economical in the amount of seed material that they read from /dev/urandom
<bnagy> ^^ Just Wrong
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<centrx> It's right for /dev/random
<centrx> He read the wrong manpage
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<bnagy> well it specifically talks about urandom
<bnagy> so no, he didn't
<bnagy> he read the right one, but the text is Wrong
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<bnagy> linux persists in the belief that they have urandom and random and they behave differently
<bnagy> bsds are just symlinked
<bnagy> and then only for compatability
<ohsix> they are different, one has entropy sources and will block on low entropy, one won't
<bnagy> just that the manpage doesn't reflect the way the code in the current kernel works at all
<bnagy> ohsix: you're wrong
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<ohsix> what are my odds about you being slightly more specific
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<bnagy> although very ptachekky in style
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<bnagy> or you can read the code, but it's In. Sane.
<ohsix> wait, i thought you said my statement was wrong, i didn't invoke the code just the distinction
<bnagy> your statement is wrong
<bnagy> the devices don't really behave differently
<bnagy> they can both block
<ohsix> i said something to the effect of 'really', but you haven't said ... ok
<bnagy> they both have entropy sources
<bnagy> it's just horribly documented
<ohsix> we're still talking about it sucking on linux right
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<ohsix> cuz i'm gonna go look :p
<bnagy> so it's definitely not something I'm saying you're stupid for thinking
<bnagy> I was perhaps too blunt sorry
<ohsix> it's alright
<ohsix> i'm pretty sure i've confirmed this in the past but i'm willing to look again; i was just stating what i thoguht i knew pretty well
<ohsix> under But what if I need real random values, not psuedorandom values?
<ohsix> on what you've posted seems to support my impression of the situation
<bnagy> just always use urandom
<ohsix> right, but it says Only on Linux are /dev/random and urandom still meaningfully different. The Linux kernel CSPRNG rekeys itself regularly (by collecting more entropy). But /dev/random also tries to keep track of how much entropy remains in its kernel pool, and will occasionally go on strike if it decides not enough remains.
<bnagy> yeah because it's insane
<ohsix> right but i'm reading this like it resolves my mistake but it's junk i've already known, gonna read the code again
<ohsix> i don't disagree with some sort of statement like 'you would only ever use this one'
<ohsix> and it's probably arguable if the distinction is worth anything
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<ohsix> blocking has actually been a problem for things when there isn't enough entropy
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<ohsix> but you know it's of a certain quality and you can control how you add entropy to the pool
<ohsix> the other one just has some random stuff in it that is handy so you don't have to seed your own rng (or have one) based on the time or something
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<ohsix> even though a syscall to get random data is expensive, it might be implied for some things, having it soak up all available entropy and also blocking the device ssh might be using for entropy is Bad (TM) tho
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<centrx> The only argument that article makes is "This design is as silly as I’ve made it sound"
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<ohsix> that's a given ;D
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<ohsix> i'm assuming that there's a contrast, like on freebsd there is a good entropy source and it also blocks (i don't know if this is a fact) and that there are applications just taking entropy when they probably shouldn't
<ohsix> bluh, apologies, i was in a discussive(TM) mood after some other conversation i was in died, gotta go
<centrx> Seems like the difference is what the manpage says
<centrx> Blocks if not enough entropy
<ohsix> yea
<centrx> Sounds like a good distinction
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<ohsix> yep, but debatable, i guess the part i was wrong about is that one has entropy sources
<ohsix> though tbh i was only speaking imprecisely, cuz it only matters with respect to the one that blocks
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<bnagy> they both block
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<bnagy> oh wait... no linux urandom doesn't block when unseeded, it's just retarded
<bnagy> sorry
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<centrx> /dev random
<centrx> You are making the same mistake as the Japanese guy
<bnagy> no?
<bnagy> you need to seed urandom at boot
<bnagy> this is the bug that bit a ton of embedded devices
<centrx> Yes
<centrx> What I wonder is where it gets the seed on very first boot
<bnagy> guess
<centrx> Looks like date
<centrx> on this version of Debian at least
<bnagy> eh.. no it should be a bunch of stuff
<bnagy> tbh I thought they just seeded from random
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<centrx> That's what I thought
<centrx> between boots it seeds it from seconds.nanoseconds + the previous boots created seed file
<bnagy> even seeding for unix time would be Bad
<centrx> but on the very first boot, it only uses date +%s.%N
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<bnagy> does yours do that? Should save a seedfile during the actual installation
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<centrx> bnagy, But where does _that_ get its seed from !?
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<bnagy> the installer?
<centrx> But where does the installer get _its_ seed from!?
<bnagy> the installer has plenty of time to gather entropy as it is installing to disk
<bnagy> like, it's running on the machine, right?
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<centrx> So the seeding required by urandom is not absolute?
<centrx> It is just necessary to avoid predictability early after boot
<bnagy> yeah, any decent random seed plus ns boot time is probably safe enough, it's a very slim window anyway
<bnagy> the openssl thing was systems generating keys right at startup
<bnagy> which is Not Great
<bnagy> but all of that is kind of edge case and not related to what ruby should do
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<centrx> Yeah, I wonder why it uses OpenSSL at all
<centrx> Could be architecture-related
<centrx> But still SecureRandom has it as the first resort not the last resort
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<pipework> OpenSSL's PRNG is fine.
<pipework> That's not what's cryptographically insecure.
<pipework> It's just the funny response from Akira Tanaka that I find entertaining.
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<bnagy> well I think we should be using urandom over openssl
<bnagy> it's just a much better idea
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<lianj> pipework: fine like forking fine? :P
<pipework> lianj: Like perfectly secure as it is.
<pipework> bnagy: It isn't.
<lianj> pipework: don't remember the forking issue? although to be fair it was not the PRNG by itself
<pipework> It's an idea, but it has nothing to do with being better. Just perhaps a more future-friendly idea if openssl becomes a library not to use.
<pipework> lianj: Oh, no I am not aware of it! Is it funny?
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<bnagy> kernel prng > userspace prng and I don't trust openssl for anything anyway
<pipework> bnagy: Well, I don't personally cater to paranoia.
<pipework> Forgive me.
<bnagy> ok then kernel prng > userspace prng
<pipework> maybe. I still haven't finished the article.
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<bnagy> wow that is hilarious
<pipework> I agree that OpenSSL shouldn't at any point include OS-specific code, even if the other parts are compiled out.
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<bnagy> oh.. just got to the end. Surprise! I very much like the idea of using /dev/urandom as sole Random Number Generator for cryptographic purposes
<pipework> For what SecureRandom should do, I think that it would be prudent to switch the two in this case, only because it already conditionally looks for it. It just happens to be on the other side.
<bnagy> It's Just Better tm
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<pipework> I don't agree.
<pipework> I think it's a better implementation that's specific to an operating system.
<pipework> Even BSD and OS X have them, but not everyone.
<bnagy> windows has an analagous api
<bnagy> what's left that ruby runs on?
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<pipework> I don't think OpenSSL should be concerned with those.
<bnagy> I don't think openssl should be doing random for anything that's not openssl
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<pipework> If ruby's SecureRandom wants to include OS-specific code, go nuts.
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<pipework> OpenSSL has to include a PRNG for its own use.
<bnagy> random that is supplied as a fundamental service of the OS is better than a userland random in a specific crypto lib that is maintained by martians
<centrx> It already includes OS-specific code
<pipework> centrx: In the PRNG?
<centrx> In Ruby's SecureRandom
<bnagy> yes of course
<pipework> centrx: That's Ruby's library.
<bnagy> it needs to seed itself
<centrx> SecureRandom has OS-specific code for Win32, and it has code for /dev/urandom
<centrx> but it checks for OpenSSL first
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<pipework> centrx: We're talking about OpenSSL itself.
<pipework> We know that SecureRandom has OS-specific code.
<bnagy> so does openssl
<bnagy> it has to
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<bnagy> look, the only source of entropy that you can use for 'real' random is hardware, and the only thing that can get it is the kernel
<pipework> Anyways, I think I'm also wrong since like 0.9.7
<bnagy> everything else is guessing how much we can stretch it via whatever
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<pipework> It does check for them.
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<pipework> Rather than taking them as a compilation flag option.
<ohsix> centrx: entropy is saved and then given back on shutdown/boot; if something really depended on having that entropy it should probably be done after that (it's still done really early) but it's a hidden dependency
<ohsix> the one that has entropy sources will have some at boot, from the entropy sources in the kernel
<ohsix> and, they will block any reader if there's not enough
<ohsix> getting entropy from the disk io and stuff at install time is probably a good idea, but it's not a chicken and egg problem
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<bnagy> well talking about boot time isn't really relevant for any ruby related discussion
<pipework> Sure it is.
<bnagy> it's not
<pipework> Yes.
* centrx is building a Ruby-based init system
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<bnagy> ruby doesn't run anywhere near close enough to boot to matter
<pipework> You don't work on embedded systems, do you?
<pipework> Let's not toss out his argument because you disagree with it.
<bnagy> it's not an argument
<ohsix> re: The weirdness that openssl apparently did, the way openssl is done is openbsd writes it and lets other people carry patches to port it, so (somewhat unfairly) the people who weren't upstream, the people porting, might have overlookd it
<pipework> bnagy: His comments, whatever.
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<bnagy> I agree with them, but they're related to openssl and linux bootup
<bnagy> they're just nothing to do with ruby
<bnagy> and I don't think ohsix ever said they were
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<pipework> ohsix: So, what's your thoughts on who should be responsible for flushing the buffer?
<bnagy> the only argument I am currently making is that ruby should use urandom and not openssl
<bnagy> in all cases ever
<pipework> Good thing you aren't moderator of the discussion then.
<centrx> Yes. I am the moderator!
<bnagy> well it seemed like you were disagreeing
<bnagy> so I was continuing that line of debate
<bnagy> I was led to believe this when you said 11:17 < pipework> I don't agree.
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<pipework> Let's not argue about arguing, I get enough of that in rubyonrails.
<pipework> I'm interested in his thoughts, even if you'd rather not hear them.
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<ohsix> re: the user/kernel stuff, you can get entropy from the scheduling jitter and stuff, which is indirectly from the hw anyways, but available to userspace; the problem is waiting around until you have enough
<ohsix> finished reading the backlog
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<ohsix> flushing what buffer? i don't really know all that much about ruby and certainly nothing about what spawned the discussion
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<bnagy> imho scheduling jitter is pretty weak to try and use for CSPRNG
<ohsix> the rng's available in openssl may not be 'random' but they're Known (TM)
<bnagy> but to be fair I don't know anything that tries that
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<ohsix> depending on how the source of entropy is being used, you might really really not want to use OS entropy supplies even if they were all very good, because they will be different
<pipework> ohsix: The buffer that OpenSSL uses to seed the PRNG, I think.
<bnagy> ohsix: wait.. when would you not want to use OS random but want openssl?
<ohsix> FWIW if i was doing something about this wrt. ruby i'd probably remove the idea that something is called 'secure'
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<pipework> lul
<bnagy> I mean openssl's only source of entropy is the os device
<ohsix> bnagy: it depends, i was getting to something called 'secure' being quantifiable
<pipework> That's a better answer than "update the docs"
<pipework> bnagy: Well, it's actually using it to seed, but yeah.
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<bnagy> pipework: it uses it as much as it conveniently can
<pipework> bnagy: Ostensibly not as much as you'd like though.
<bnagy> it doesn't just seed and then run a prng forever
<ohsix> openssl can probably temper and make better entropy sources that are poor, i don't actually know; but since everything openssl does is known and the algorithms have been studied and classified, they are a-priori better than a possible entropy source whos characteristics is unknown
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<bnagy> that's not apriori
<bnagy> everything in *nix kernel is also studied and known
<ohsix> to make this conversation more fruitful and concrete you would really have to decide what 'secure' is, if people are taking any rng behind that interface as good enough for what they're doing, they're probably wrong
<lianj> bnagy: if openssl prng is so bad why didn't you steal all those buttcoins yet?
<pipework> Well, I think it's more that the algorithms are.
<pipework> Less about where the algorithms are implemented.
<ohsix> i would still be in favor of knowing what quality /dev/urandom was if you were choosing to use it; i was speaking to different sources on different platforms vs. openssl
<pipework> ohsix: Linus Torvalds would assure you it's of the best quality.
<centrx> ^?<BA><98>J<A5><83><FE><EC>
<bnagy> lianj: it's not really about openssl being bad or good, or proving it ( although many hilarious openssl random bugs are on record )
<pipework> He recently ripped into someone about it.
<centrx> That is some genuine random bits from my /dev/random
<centrx> You should be flattered
<bnagy> it's about the kernel being fundamentally better placed to manage entropy
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<bnagy> of which it is, after all, the ONLY SOURCE
<ohsix> there's no real distinction there
<centrx> I have used up some of my precious entropy for you
<ohsix> you can get _more_ entropy, but that's it
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<pipework> I haven't read the whole of it though.
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<bnagy> while I'll admit that it is hard to decide which of linux kernel and openssl is worse, they're both 'open'
<pipework> The paper is much longer, which should afford this poor channel some peace.
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<ohsix> that scheiner link looks proper
<ohsix> you can't really say one is better than the other in the abstract
<ohsix> i've mentioned why you would care about all sources and might prefer openssl
<pipework> I sincerely doubt that anyone participating, including me, is any kind of expert on the subject. I'll see if I can get some of the papers the sister company of my company produces. Network security company.
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<ohsix> i've pretty much dropped all the knowledge i could and have talked myself out of the conversation, but that scheiner link looks like proper analysis of the entropy estimation and stuff; that's another universe than deciding if urandom > ssl and stuff, that's meat and potatoes
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<ohsix> i know a little bit about testing random sources and rngs for certain aspects (and what you would consider to be fit for 'secure' use) and that there's a reason there's a bunch of them, they all have different properties
<pipework> That's not even actually relevant, but it's a fun read!
<pipework> It's a rundown on some recent stuff.
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<bnagy> that paper is just hating on linux dev random, which I agree with
<ohsix> it says the entropy estimator is bad
<bnagy> yeah
<ohsix> which is a very hard thing to do, the end
<bnagy> hence don't do it :)
<ohsix> that's part of measuring the quality of the entropy, you do it with the prng's too
<ohsix> some of the best methods just look for clusters in higher dimensional spaces
<pipework> Shit's difficult. OpenSSL's PRNG is good enough. I'd be stoked to see something demonstrably better or at least less bad.
<bnagy> basically just chuck entropy into your PRNG whenever you have it
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<ohsix> and you only do that hard analysis to qualify the prng, you don't do that very intensive work to measure the quality of the entropy you have in-situ
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<ohsix> it's actually a bit of a noodle bender, knowing the quality of the entropy while not being able to generate good entropy by some computing process
<ohsix> you just add incidental sources of noise where you think the jitter will be somewhat random, gaussian and all that
<ohsix> and you hope that you have enough sources that they're not too correlated, and you still don't have a random number from that yet
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<ohsix> that scheiner link talks about stuff not meeting their own standard for the paper too, the linux thing is almost an aside
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<ohsix> that emboss article links to some stuff about the linux rng, nice
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<ohsix> all of the stuff i'm reading seems kind of half sincere, it's not but like; i dunno, saying that mistakes keep happening and it needs to be fixed in the library seems wrong, the problem is not knowing what you're doing and not knowing the implications, he's right that you can't just add another best practices entry
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<pipework> Well, they can, but whether they should and the implications of doing so are important. I'm indifferent about who should be responsible, but some people are convinced that OpenSSL should be.
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<ohsix> you and i seem to be on the same tack with this
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<pipework> ohsix: I'm glad.
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<orchidrudra> Hi, Can celluloid related questions be asked here?
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<centrx> orchidrudra, Sure, but probably better off asking during the day U.S./Europe
<centrx> orchidrudra, Also visit #celluloid and #ruby
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<orchidrudra> Thanks
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<ljarvis> yorickpeterse: haha, i agree
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<yorickpeterse> morning
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<maloik> anyone have an atom invite already ?
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<ljarvis> maloik: i just used mine :/
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<maloik> do you get new ones once you have one ?
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<ljarvis> maloik: you get 3
<maloik> oh, I see what you mean
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<maloik> got one
<maloik> :-)
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<maloik> so I just *finally* got around to installing and forcing myself to use tig
<maloik> popped a stash for the first time using it, and the one thing I see is "dropped stash@{1}"
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<maloik> I think I lost a few years of my life
<maloik> (before realizing everything was put in stage before dropping of course)
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<yorickpeterse> FOLKS
<yorickpeterse> I HAVE AN INVITE FOR VIM
<yorickpeterse> It's free as in fuck you during the beta
<MichD> if you're implying atom is not going to be free after the beta: http://discuss.atom.io/t/why-is-atom-closed-source/82/5
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<yorickpeterse> Ah
<yorickpeterse> That's at least more comforting
<yorickpeterse> "Atom won't be closed source, but it won't be open source either. It will be somewhere inbetween,"
<yorickpeterse> ok that's bs
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<maloik> I believe they said the core would be open source, I assume that means their github integration and things like that will be closed source
<MichD> well, we shall see
<MichD> otherwise I suppose there's nothing stopping us from using editors we know and love
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<certainty> yeah such as http://www.ymacs.org/demo/
<certainty> xD
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<ljarvis> is anyone in here a sed master?
<yorickpeterse> what do you need young grashopper?
<ljarvis> I want to delete a line, plus x lines above and y lines below it
<yorickpeterse> can't do that with sed properly
<yorickpeterse> it operates on a per line basis
<yorickpeterse> not sure if it has /m
<yorickpeterse> you can use perl for that though
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<ljarvis> yeah true
<ohsix> sounds like a job for awk
<ohsix> it knows about lines
<ohsix> (!sed, basically)
<ljarvis> my awk knowledge: 0
<ohsix> grep has -v and ou can tell it to use a given amount of context
<ohsix> i read a book once, never did anything with it ;D
<certainty> yeah it knows before and after context
<ljarvis> oh right sed can do this
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<ljarvis> sed: 1: "/header-new-post/,+4d": expected context address
<ljarvis> fuuu
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<_rgn> it's standard in ruby that you have to define a method before using it in the file?
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<maloik> you mean define the method in the lines before the first use ?
<maloik> if so: nope
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<jhass> the method has to be seen by the parser before invocation, so foo; def foo; end; won't work, def foo; bar; end; def bar; end; foo will
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<maloik> :o
<maloik> wait what ? I dont even get that :)
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<jhass> not sure if I can come up with a simpler example tbh.
<_rgn> cool
<maloik> jhass: but I suppose it'd be a different story if all that were part of a class, right ?
<jhass> not sure how that would change much
<maloik> I don't know how the parser works but I'd expect it to parse the entire class first
<maloik> that's the only difference I could think of between your two examples
<yorickpeterse> hihi Python is a terrible language
<maloik> since in your 2nd example the foo method would be parsed before the bar method is parsed?
<yorickpeterse> rubber-ducking with my CTO to package a bunch of crap
<yorickpeterse> _rgn: I'd say it's pretty standard to define a method before using it, yes
<yorickpeterse> how else do you expect to use it?
<yorickpeterse> foobar(:baz) # this doesn't magically work yo
<maloik> yorickpeterse: so if you have a class you never use #foo inside #bar before defining #foo ?
<yorickpeterse> oh no that's fine
<maloik> well that's why I thought it worked... cause I do that all the time
<yorickpeterse> but it's nice if you don't have a recursive method dependency
<_rgn> yorickpeterse: it wouldn't surprise me if you could call a method before defining it below
<_rgn> but i've written too much javascript
<yorickpeterse> oh you can do that, I misunderstood the question
<yorickpeterse> I thought you meant something like this:
<yorickpeterse> foobar; def foobar; end
<yorickpeterse> that won't work
<yorickpeterse> but
<yorickpeterse> def foo; bar; end; def bar; end; foo # this will
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<_rgn> yeah
<_rgn> i see the difference
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<whitequark> yorickpeterse: what about that?
<yorickpeterse> Nothing in particular, but it made me smirk a bit
<yorickpeterse> beats the usual %w{foo}
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<yorickpeterse> Ragel is a beast though
<ohsix> kind of OT, does anyone know details on the meat of how tynt works, it's newly pissed me off again and i thought about adding extra navigation that fuzzed their analytics on every site i navigate to that uses it, in addition to blocking it
<yorickpeterse> Trying to see what the best way would be to emit different tokens based on a context
<yorickpeterse> ohsix: you can just block their hostname
<ohsix> i'm gonna see about deobfuscating it and see how they make the hash and stuff tomorrow
<yorickpeterse> e.g. I have `127.0.0.1 doubleclick.net` in /etc/hosts
<yorickpeterse> on my home laptop I have similar entries for Tynt
<ohsix> ya i know but i want to render moot what it actually does
<ohsix> people don't like what they do with their clipboard so i'm thinking it might be a popular enough idea to have some impact
<whitequark> clipboard?
<yorickpeterse> whitequark: they hijack copy-pasta
<yorickpeterse> basically their business is this:
<ohsix> yea, like if you copy something from the latimes, it adds its own url to the end with a marker for tynt analytics, it tells them what text you copied
<yorickpeterse> You copy text from some website, they inject "READ THE FULL ARTICLE HERE: [LINK]"
<yorickpeterse> It's fucking shitware
<ohsix> so if it's a popular passage, when your friend clicks on it or whoever, they know what selection got the click, for heatmapping or whatever
<yorickpeterse> warning: Daring Fireball
<_rgn> what is |* *| ?
<yorickpeterse> in?
<_rgn> that github link
<_rgn> and %%{ }%%
<yorickpeterse> oh, that's Ragel, not Ruby
<yorickpeterse> well, it's a mix of both
<ohsix> i actually like the ida of what tynt does, but i don't trust the people who use it to not use the data to turn something i rely on in some measure, to shit
<yorickpeterse> you "like" the idea?
<yorickpeterse> Are you a mobster?
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<yorickpeterse> it's fucking toxic, period
<yorickpeterse> It's why JS has no clipboard API for example
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<ohsix> i would like to do it for any sort of thing i wrote, the part of the article most people are interested in is useful information; but i can trust myself that i wouldn't use it to optimize around it
<ohsix> i still dunno if i would clipboard hijack to do it, though
<ohsix> maybe only for people navigating from social networks
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<yorickpeterse> Every person that hijacks anything to insert their BS metrics deserves a punch in the face
<yorickpeterse> If I land on your website I expect to be tracked, that's fine
<yorickpeterse> But stay the fuck away from my clipboard, filesystem, etc
<ohsix> tbh i just null all the websites i see doing it out from my sources of information
* yorickpeterse clears his clipboard too often because of this
<ohsix> your sentiment (and mine) is why i think some sort of offensive extension might be popular enough to get them to stop or something
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<yorickpeterse> It doesn't help
<ohsix> if there's way too much noise in their already very rarified sampling of stuff, it would be a pretty big problem for them
<yorickpeterse> What helps is calling out the companies and shaming them in public
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<yorickpeterse> and blocking them on the lowest level possible
<ohsix> yea, already done that
<ohsix> coming back at it from the angle that information is being volunteered
<yorickpeterse> Hm come to think of it, I should probably block tynt/doubleclick in my router
<ohsix> if it's going to be volunteered anyways but you don't agree, why not opt-in to volunteering bullshit information that undermines what they do
<yorickpeterse> That sentence makes no sense
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<ohsix> the sites that use it use it to track what portions of something they publish are making it around on the internet
<yorickpeterse> Those websites need to piss off, Google analytics is ok, anything else is not in my opinion
<yorickpeterse> I find it hard to believe anybody can justify it being ok to insert crap into a person's clipboard without their explicit consent
<ohsix> sure, but if everyone is taking a survey for popular names and you don't agree, just say your name is cock mccockington every time one of them asks you
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<yorickpeterse> That's fucking retarded
<ohsix> :<
<yorickpeterse> That's like saying "If you don't want the NSA to track you just give up false info!"
<ohsix> it's an analogy
<yorickpeterse> It's a fucking broken one
<ohsix> you do volunteer information to the nsa, but not in a way that is comparable to a on foot survey or what tynt does
<yorickpeterse> It doesn't solve anything, you solve it by saying "No, fuck right off"
<yorickpeterse> I certainly do fucking *not* volunteer it
<yorickpeterse> Don't try to justify stupidity
<yorickpeterse> or violation of human rights and privacy
<yorickpeterse> At no point in time did I sign some kind of paper that said "YES I AM OK WITH COMPANY X KNOWING EVERYTHING ABOUT ME"
<yorickpeterse> And I'd rather die than do that
<ohsix> then maybe a lawsuit? i think you may be too angry wrt this to figure out what i'm talking about
<yorickpeterse> I understand what you're talking about, and I think you're full of shit
<ohsix> you control the inputs
<yorickpeterse> You can not justify this means
<yorickpeterse> * these
<yorickpeterse> brb lunch
<yorickpeterse> Control the inputs? hahaha
<ohsix> it's not often as clear as it is with tynt to fuck with things
<yorickpeterse> Even if I don't use the internet there's a handful of organizations who know more about me than I do, without my consent
<yorickpeterse> but anyway, rbb
<yorickpeterse> * brb
<ohsix> they take the hash and can map it to a page region
<ohsix> so when they attempt to do so, send them random regions
<ohsix> or only one region
<ohsix> either way, you've gone from them getting a link that represents what they want to something that is actually contrary to what they're in business to do
<ohsix> a better in real life analogy might be not only stopping using a certain shop you don't like, but opening up one right next to them
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<ohsix> as to liking the idea, i like a lot of things that my morality forbids me from ever doing
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<ohsix> not doing morally repgunant things keeps me away from a lot of easy money! :<
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<certainty> ohsix: but it gives you good karma :)
<ohsix> what's the exchange rate for that with cash money ;D
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<certainty> ohsix: you don't need money where your karma is the currency
<certainty> or will be rather
<ohsix> i guess, but i don't believe in that either D:
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<ohsix> i'm glad to give into the idea that people accept other people are fair (even if it'sn ot true) or that the world will even out, and just send out good ripples
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<certainty> ohsix: well then. I think it's great that you follow your morality. For whatever that is worth to you. At least it's immediate :D
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<elimS> wtf i thought i join #ruby-lang but joined #karma instead
<elimS> or #life-lesson maybe
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<alfa_> #rmagick
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<certainty> those are isomorphisms
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<yorickpeterse> yay JS
<yorickpeterse> for two days
<yorickpeterse> ._>
<yorickpeterse> bad JS too
<yorickpeterse> (implying there's good JS)
<ljarvis> no js is good js
<gnufied> been doing Java and 2 weeks. don't touch me - you casual filth!
<gnufied> :D
<gnufied> bad Java too
<workmad3> JS can be good... you just need to avoid half the language and be pretty strict with keeping your own stuff contained so it won't interfere with crap from other libraries, events, the DOM, etc...
<ljarvis> ...
<ljarvis> so js is good if you avoid everything
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<workmad3> ljarvis: almost everything... :D
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<yorickpeterse> JS is never good
<yorickpeterse> it's the PHP of client-side scripting
<yorickpeterse> The fact that shit like Coffeescript exists shows that it's a terrible language
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<toretore> javascript is a simple and elegant language
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<freedrull> almost every project seems to have issues with running rbx on travis https://github.com/CanCanCommunity/cancancan/commit/5a3684a7d650ca5ff3383ba2649832b2a57f519e
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<yorickpeterse> toretore: you are dead from the inside
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<yorickpeterse> freedrull: Yeah, that's not very helpful to us
<yorickpeterse> if you believe it's an Rbx issue, please report it as one
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<yorickpeterse> https://travis-ci.org/CanCanCommunity/cancancan/jobs/19601601 this looks like an issue with either the sqlite3 gem or rbx
<yorickpeterse> Also "almost every project" is simply false
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<crankharder> so, it seems that minitest out of the box randomizes the order of test methods within a given file, but if you're using something like rake_test_loader, the order of the files that are tested remains the same
<crankharder> has anyone successfully been able to randomize that?
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<maloik> crankharder: what does that even do? never heard of it
<crankharder> rake test_loader?
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<maloik> also, try appending TESTOPTS="--seed 20101" to the command and see if the order changes
<maloik> 20101 is a random number I just made up
<crankharder> it's just a command line helper that requires the files you pass in on the command line
<crankharder> maloik: i doubt it, minitest changes the seed with each test run
<maloik> I know, and to override that you pass in the option I mentioned
<maloik> so maybe you can work around it by passing in random numbers
<crankharder> ...how does that make sense
<crankharder> minitest randomizes the seed, and the tests are run in the same order all the time. what would setting it to a given seed value chnage?
<maloik> each random order corresponds to a seed number
<maloik> so if you pass in a seed number which you randomize another way, it's random again
<maloik> I'm guessing the test_loader that you mention uses seed 0 all the time
<crankharder> i think you misinterpreted my original question
<maloik> no, I don't think I do
<maloik> you're passing in one or several files
<maloik> and it's not randomizing the tests, right ?
<crankharder> yes
<maloik> so, in order to randomize it again, you'd pass in the command line equivalent of TESTOPTS="--seed #{random_number}"
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<maloik> mind you that's just a workaround I think MIGHT work, I have no idea about test_loader so there might be a proper solution as well
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<Rahnarsson> Hello, I am newbie with ruby, and have problem with XmlSimple
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<Rahnarsson> I have XML-data which looks like this: http://pastebin.com/pYrxt1Sm
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<Rahnarsson> I'm trying to get the value from FLAG-line but I just get blank line
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<toertore> XmlSimple.xml_in(STDIN.read)["MAObject"][0]["Meta"].find{|h| h["name"] == "FLAG" }["content"]
<Rahnarsson> toertore: so the KeyAttr does not have affect here?
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<Rahnarsson> xml_hash = XmlSimple.xml_in('text.xml', {'KeyAttr' => 'name'})
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<Rahnarsson> and then FLAG=xml_hash['FLAG']
<toertore> XmlSimple.xml_in(STDIN.read, "KeyAttr" => "name")["MAObject"][0]["Meta"]["FLAG"]["content"]
<toertore> you are assuming you know what XmlSimple.xml_id will return
<toertore> inspect the data
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<Rahnarsson> ok thanks!
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<Rahnarsson> toertore: yep, now i can see. thanks a lot!
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<ljarvis> i built an atom package :/
<crankharder> yea, even minitest fundamentally calls "ruby -I lib:test path/to/rake_test_loarder.rb foo_test.rb bar_test.rb" -- and even if the list of files there is randomized they're still executed in some non-random order
<ljarvis> dont even know why
<crankharder> my guess is it's alphabetical
<crankharder> rake_test_loader doesn't do any sorting
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<ruby-lang273> Hi! I'm very new in Ruby and I've a question regarding code structuration. I want to create a one time application (so now gem). I've a lib folder with all my codes and a bin folder with the entry point of my application. In my bin exec, i've a "require ...". When I try to launch my bin file, the require failed. Ruby is not looking in my lib folder to check files. My question, how can i test my application in my case? Thanks:(
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<|jemc|> ruby-lang273: check out require_relative
<ruby-lang273> Oh, so something like "require ../lib/..." in my bin file?
<ruby-lang273> require_relative*
<|jemc|> or add your desired path to the $LOAD_PATH aray
<|jemc|> yeah
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<ruby-lang273> But, If I do the first solution, if for instance inside one of my files in my lib folder i've another require. It will work even if the lib/ is not in my path?
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<ruby-lang273> The require will look in the current folder?
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<|jemc|> no, if you want to get to files in the current folder, use require_relative
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<|jemc|> or do the $LOAD_PATH hack, but some people frown on that
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<ruby-lang273> ok so inside all my files, i need to use require_relative?
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<|jemc|> unless you're require-ing external libraries that are in the load path (which is pretty much your gems and stdlib)
<ruby-lang273> Ok thanks!
<|jemc|> good luck
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<ruby-lang273> And, can i load the lib folder dynamically in the beginning of my bin files?
<ruby-lang273> I don't know if it's something right
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<|jemc|> well, depending on what you're doing, it may be appropriate to use the load path hack
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<|jemc|> if you want to treat your lib directory as if it were a gem without it actually being one
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<ruby-lang273> ok! thanks |jemc| :)
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<yorickpeterse> HAI NERDS
<yorickpeterse> I'M BACK
<yorickpeterse> *everybody runs*
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<yorickpeterse> ᕕ(ᐛ)ᕗ
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<ljarvis> i dont even intend to use atom but the package system really is nice
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<yorickpeterse> yeah...you just wait for Bram Molenaar to kick your door in
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<yorickpeterse> while yelling something like "VIM GODVERDOMME!"
<ljarvis> i still use vim anyway, but do i want to write vimscript?
<ljarvis> lolno no i dont
<yorickpeterse> ok I agree on Vimscript being shit
<ljarvis> but yeah, my vim is so customized i cant really move from it
<ljarvis> was just interested how easy it would be to build something
<gnufied> ljarvis: shouldn't that use sexps to travel through code?
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<yorickpeterse> I would much appreciate a Vim that has multi-threading support
<yorickpeterse> in its core, not some random patch
<gnufied> yorickpeterse: roflscale Vim?
<yorickpeterse> Yes
<yorickpeterse> I will run rails from Vim
<ljarvis> gnufied: it's using blocks in a literal sense, not a language-aware sense (I'd like to do that, but not right now)
<yorickpeterse> not that that will scail anyway :troll:
<imperator> damn 32v64 issues
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<tayworm> i have a question if someone will take pity on me
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<|jemc|> the answer is: they won't take pity on you
<|jemc|> but they may answer your question
<|jemc|> after all, this is IRC
<yorickpeterse> tayworm: don't ask to ask, just ask
<|jemc|> the only form of pity known to IRC is seething ridicule
<tayworm> I've got a gem that uses chef (knife specifically) to create cookbooks. I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to detect if a person has omnibus chef installed and to use that instead of installing the gem version on top of that
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<imperator> i have a question - what's the appropriate pack directive is for a uintptr_t ?
<yorickpeterse> tayworm: no, there's no easy way to do that upon a Gem install
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<imperator> pish posh
<imperator> it'll take a little code, but it's doable
<tayworm> imperator: how would you recommend i try to tackle that?
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<yorickpeterse> well, you can hack it in (http://yorickpeterse.com/articles/hacking-extconf-rb/) but it's not really elegant
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<tayworm> imperator: i dont think that would work because omnibus chef isnt installed as a 'gem'
<tayworm> it has its own embedded ruby and everything
<imperator> oic
<tayworm> yorickpeterse: so I add an extconf.rb file and in there I have to figure out how to detect if omnibus chef is present?
<tayworm> err. wait now i see the rakefile method instead
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<existensil> all of the answers on that SO post are terrible. i should know, the top voted one is mine.
<existensil> there has to be a better way to integrade with rubygems. i just haven't found it.
<mistym> ljarvis: Are the contents of the old slop wiki archived anywhere? AFAIK it had more information than the current documentation does.
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<ljarvis> mistym: no :(
<ljarvis> sorry
<mistym> :(
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<imperator> dammit, aren't the pack directives supposed to "just work" no matter which arch you're using?
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<yorickpeterse> tayworm: read through the whole thing
<yorickpeterse> imperator: eh, not sure
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<yorickpeterse> tayworm: basically you can use a Rakefile to execute arbitrary Ruby after a user installs a Gem
<yorickpeterse> so you can install other gems if you'd like
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<zenspider> imperator: some of the pack directives are endian specific
<zenspider> look at the network numbers for independent ones
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<imperator> that 11th field is where things go wrong, it's declared as a uinptr_t
<imperator> eh, maybe i'll just use an ffi struct
<mistym> ljarvis: Boo, Github's robots.txt didn't let it be archived by archive.org
<zenspider> yes, long is specific to your architecture. look at l or q for 32 and 64
<ljarvis> mistym: what version are you using?
<zenspider> really depends on how uinptr_t is declared
<mistym> ljarvis: The most recent
<ljarvis> mistym: oh, the wiki was for the old version (hence removing it)
<ljarvis> that's why I assumed you were using an old version
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<mistym> ljarvis: Oh, okay. I was wondering because I remembered the old wiki having a lot more information on the the arguments to option declaration, etc.
* zenspider runs to lunch
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<imperator> it's just an unsigned long on solaris as far as i can tell, and it's 4 or 8 bytes depending
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<yorickpeterse> random question: does anybody know if the contents of CDATA tags are supposed to be treated as plain text or not? Nokogiri seems to fuck it up
<yorickpeterse> e.g.
<yorickpeterse> Nokogiri::HTML('<svg><![CDATA[<p>Foo</p>]]></svg>').to_s # => "<html><body><svg>Foo]]&gt;</svg></body></html>" (skipping the doctype)
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<yorickpeterse> hm, apparently it's supposed to be ignored alltogether in HTML
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<yorickpeterse> whitequark: ping
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<whitequark> pong
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<whitequark> yorickpeterse: ^
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<imperator> well, that's interesting - if i cut out the data that i'm not unpacking in that example...it works
<yorickpeterse> whitequark: so I'm looking through the Ragel docs for this, and it's not really clear if it's possible: I'm looking for a way to trigger an action if pattern X was matched first. That is, there is some kind of start and stop sequence, I want something to run in between
<yorickpeterse> e.g.
<yorickpeterse> say you have "<abc>", here < would be the start, "abc" whatever I'd run the action on, and ">" the end
<yorickpeterse> I can probably use entering/leaving actions, but those would run on the start/end, not the body
<whitequark> '<' @{ code } [a-z]+ '>'
<yorickpeterse> I can hack this in manually (e.g. by setting something like @in_some_tag = true), but I'd prefer to do it the Ragel way
<yorickpeterse> hmmm
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<whitequark> have you read ragel manual/
<whitequark> *?
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<yorickpeterse> Not everything yet
<whitequark> you should
<yorickpeterse> I am, but it's a lot to digest
<yorickpeterse> and Google is not helpful :/
<whitequark> well... key is to forget everything about characters and lexing
<whitequark> ragel is a state machine composer
<whitequark> once you grok that, the rest is a piece of cake
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<yorickpeterse> that's like saying "once you know how to make jet fuel building a rocket is easy"
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<yorickpeterse> s/jet/rocket
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<whitequark> well, mapping of lexers to state machines is straightforward
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<tayworm> thanks for the help yorickpeterse
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<yorickpeterse> tayworm: np
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<yorickpeterse> whitequark: actually if I get it right that particular example will run @{ code} for '<'
<yorickpeterse> not for the [a-z]+ bit, no?
<yorickpeterse> That is, data[ts..te] would result in "<" there
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<tayworm> yorickpeterse: how would i check if a gem is installed or install a gem using rake?
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<yorickpeterse> tayworm: you can query Gem::Specification.all in Ruby
<tayworm> ah, duh
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<yorickpeterse> whitequark: ok now I get it, disregard my comment above
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<jaimef> is there a way to print uncommon methods for an object?
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<yorickpeterse> "uncommon"?
<zenspider> uncommon methods?
<jaimef> that which 99.9% of all objects share?
<jaimef> :is_a?
<jaimef> :tainted?
<zenspider> wouldn't that be common?
<yorickpeterse> jaimef: SomeClass.methods(false)
<yorickpeterse> >> String.methods(false)
<eval-in___> yorickpeterse => [:try_convert] (https://eval.in/106656)
<yorickpeterse> >> class Foo; def bar; end; end; Foo.methods
<zenspider> imperator: how's it going?
<yorickpeterse> eval-in___: ...
<yorickpeterse> >> class Foo; def bar; end; end; Foo.methods(false)
<eval-in___> yorickpeterse => [] (https://eval.in/106657)
<yorickpeterse> so yeah, use methods, instance_methods, etc and pass `false` to them
<zenspider> sounds like he just wants Object.methods
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<jaimef> tired of sitting in pry looking through dozens of methods which are not what I'm looking for :P
<zenspider> why are you looking through dozens of methods in the first place?
<yorickpeterse> jaimef: eh, if you use `ls` it shouldn't list all of them
<jaimef> ALL
<yorickpeterse> unless you're looking at ActiveStuff objects
<yorickpeterse> jaimef: "ALL"?
<jaimef> ls shows me ALL of the methods
* jaimef monkey patches grep to remove them
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<yorickpeterse> http://hastebin.com/raw/lenucodabu this is what it does for me
<jaimef> odd
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<imperator> zenspider, i'm stuck
<imperator> posted to ruby-talk
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<imperator> i tried slapping some underscores around, but no joy
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<zenspider> imperator: the thing is, when your longs change, your input data needs to change too, otherwise they're not architecture specific longs like the header says it is
<zenspider> so either your input data needs to change based on where you're running, or the definition does
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<tayworm> yorickpeterse: what is the best way to install a gem within ruby?
<yorickpeterse> shell out
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<yorickpeterse> or not do it all together, it's a pretty invasive process
<imperator> zenspider, well, i can't change the data, that's coming from the kernel
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<yorickpeterse> if a user *can* install X because it's better, let the user decide themselves
<imperator> (or can i?)
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<tayworm> yorickpeterse: what im trying to do is use omnibus chef if it exists, otherwise use the gem version. if they have neither, id like to install the gem version for them
<yorickpeterse> what's wrong with just using the Gem version?
<tayworm> are you saying thats bad? would it be better to exit with an error message?
<tayworm> yorickpeterse: nothing really, other than a lot of people like the omnibus version better
<zenspider> imperator: how are you getting the same data for two different architectures if the fields are defined as architecture dependent?
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<tayworm> if you install the gem version on top of that, it covers up the omnibus
<yorickpeterse> Either require the Gem or that alternative
<tayworm> i originally did just that, but i had complaints
<yorickpeterse> e.g. say libfoo is either a system dependency or a Gem
<yorickpeterse> if you build some Gem that uses libfoo, in that case you can either say 1) make sure the system version is installed 2) always install the Gem version
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<yorickpeterse> RubyGems doesn't have conditional/optional dependencies as far as I know, and installing stuff post-install is dirty
<yorickpeterse> I don't see the problem with requiring either this omnibus thing or a gem
<tayworm> yorickpeterse: so youre saying in my docs to require one or the other?
<yorickpeterse> in your docs? No idea, I'm saying that if there's two versions of X you should choose which one to depend on
<tayworm> ah, i see
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<yorickpeterse> gah, Ragel y u so confuse
<|jemc|> for to spite you
<yorickpeterse> wat
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<apeiros> yorickpeterse: writing your html parser in ragel?
<yorickpeterse> The lexer, yes
<yorickpeterse> My Ragel is super limited though so I'm busting my head at basic stuff
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<apeiros> yorickpeterse: wasn't hpricot using ragel too?
<yorickpeterse> not sure, didn't check
<yorickpeterse> and fuck yeah, it can lex CDATA tags
<yorickpeterse> that took way too fucking long
<yorickpeterse> I guess this is where I go to this Russian friend of mine (not whitequark) and say "SEE? YOU CAN *NOT* WRITE AN HTML PARSER IN A DAY"
<apeiros> I think it did. might be helpful to take a look
<yorickpeterse> yeah looking now
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<yorickpeterse> oh shoot it does use Ragel
<yorickpeterse> neat
<yorickpeterse> ta
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<yorickpeterse> Hm, with this new knowledge/power I should be able to parse doctypes more accurately too
<yorickpeterse> god damn it, Ragel is awesome
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<zenspider> hpricot is also super duper broken
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<centrx> hpricot is old
<yorickpeterse> zenspider: never used it myself, but in what way(s)?
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<imperator> zenspider, nm, it's not the same, there's an 80 byte diff in 32 v 64
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<zenspider> imperator: :P
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<imperator> but it doesn't change the fact that i still don't know what pack directive i should be using
<imperator> tried every damn combo i can think of
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