<DocScrutinizer05>
(basically about having the cut edge of a PCB gold plated and using it for contacts. With LEDs embedded in between the contact pads, separating them)
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: an image is worth a thousand words...
<DocScrutinizer05>
and how do you think I could create such an image?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not a gifted painting artist
<whitequark>
well, I bet you can draw that on paper, rougly. you're an engineer after all :p
<whitequark>
do the same in gimp
<whitequark>
s/draw/sketch/
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually I hardly can do that
<whitequark>
then, do you understand your own idea?
<whitequark>
not meant to be offensive or something
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<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
but do you understand it? it seems it's not that complex to understand
<whitequark>
I'm not, that's why I asked for a picture
<whitequark>
it would probably be easier if I was immersed in your project fully
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's not at all related to any project. The idea is simply to have the cut edge of the PCB plated by gold (pretty usual thing)
<whitequark>
oh so only the lowest reply in the message is related
<whitequark>
ok, whether it's lack of sleep, context or intelligence, but I've lost you
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<DocScrutinizer05>
I asked if any comments about having edge of a PCB gold plated and using it for contacts on outside of a device
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can't think how to put it any clearer
<whitequark>
ok, it's clear now
<whitequark>
though I'm not quite sure how exactly do you intend to use LEDs
<DocScrutinizer05>
I plan to have resections/bays in the outer edge of the PCB where I embedd the LEDs pointing away from PCB in plane of PCB
<DocScrutinizer05>
the LED is ~ 0.8mm*0.8mm*1.2mm
<DocScrutinizer05>
the PCB is 0.8mm high
<DocScrutinizer05>
you cut out a rectangle of 0.8*1.2mm from edge of PCB end embedd the LED there, so LED's shining surface is flush with the edge of PCB
<whitequark>
what would you have that LED there for?
<DocScrutinizer05>
though the LED has the same "thickness" like the PCB
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, the height is probably smaller
<wpwrak>
i.e., the LEDs would be soldered on the side of the PCB ? and the PCB is 0.8 mm and the LEDs have a width of exactly 0.8 mm, too ?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, so when LED is 1.2*0.8*0.4, then the bay is 1.2*0.4 in a PCB of 0.8 thinkness
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<wpwrak>
mmh, you need some tolerances, already for the cutting
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
also for solder etc
<wpwrak>
and soldering will of course be fun. i guess you're looking forward to that already :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<wpwrak>
is it a problem if the LED sticks out by, say, 0.2 mm at the top or bottom of the PCB ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, we *could* handle that
<wpwrak>
then i wouldn't put these leds. else you'll have the mother of all fights getting them there with superhuman precision
<whitequark>
technically those machines already have superhuman precision...
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't see that. When the PCB sits flush on a bench then the LEDs sit flush in the PCB
<DocScrutinizer05>
generally we need component positioning/placing with sub-0.1mm precision anyway
<wpwrak>
whitequark: do you have a machine that will solder LEDs on the side (!) of a PCB ? i see nimble chinese hands ...
<whitequark>
hm, yes, that's an interesting question
<DocScrutinizer05>
and given the mech design the LEDs will auto-center easily
<wpwrak>
except in the Z axis :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
solder surface tnetion will do the trick
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh, why not in Z axis?
<wpwrak>
naw, the LEDs sounds like a production nightmare in the making. you could design them in and see how it goes. but i'd expect you to run out of patience with them quickly. especially since you require very high precision.
<wpwrak>
alterntively, see if you can get LEDs that are less than 0.8 mm.
<DocScrutinizer05>
the precision is immanent in the PCB design
<DocScrutinizer05>
no way
<DocScrutinizer05>
they need to have height of PCB or we will not get a proper closed outer surface
<wpwrak>
0.5 and 0.6 mm exist
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't care
<DocScrutinizer05>
the NEED exactly same height as PCB is thick
<wpwrak>
(closed surface) why not ? and who cares ? would the LEDs also bear mechanical load ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh? it's the outer surface of the device
<wpwrak>
the PCB sticks out of the case ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, it doesn't stick out, it is fliush with outer surface
<wpwrak>
still, that's pretty unusual. well, calculate some 0.1 mm tolerances there
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah
<DocScrutinizer05>
0.1mm is a damn lot
<wpwrak>
0.1 mm aren't a big deal. the case will still seem smooth. and especially if you have contacts there
<wpwrak>
of course you'll also have to ESD-protect them, etc.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
but I don't want LEDs stick out a 0.1mm from our case surface
<wpwrak>
no, i mean in the LED's XY plane, which would be the PCB's XZ or YZ plane.
<wpwrak>
you should in fact recess them a little. else, of something flexible slides past, it will catch on the LEDs
<DocScrutinizer05>
I rather have a 0.1mm gap on the "bottom" side of the LED to the contacts on the PCB edge, and fill that with solder
<wpwrak>
and you have two big holes on the sides of the LEDs anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<DocScrutinizer05>
no way
<DocScrutinizer05>
i rather plan to have the bay in PCB to fit on pressing
<wpwrak>
do you want to make the PCB go "around" the LED ? in a 0.3 mm space ? no way :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh?
<wpwrak>
maybe you really should draw it :) from what i understand, you plan to mount regular top-facing LEDs on the side of the PCB. and it seems that this won't be very nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think it is very nice and beautiful
<wpwrak>
maybe if you try to draw it, you'll notice some problems yourself. i often do :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't need a drawing
<DocScrutinizer05>
I see it in front of my inner eye to the last atom
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I think our PCB manuf can cut PCB to a 0.01mm precision
<wpwrak>
okay, you see something beautiful that is easy to make. i - and i think whitequark too - see something a bit ragged that will be a QA PITA :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, just like the switches we need to use anyway
<wpwrak>
and if i understand the design correctly, you couldn't just omit the LEDs if they don't work out, because you'd then have a hole in the device's outside, right ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I again sense this "we can't use this object since it can't get mounted to the wall using a hammer. You need to *turn* it in!" concerns
<wpwrak>
switches go into case openings. so there is usually a bit of wiggle room. but yes, i hate them. too bloddy big, expensive, messy.
<wpwrak>
i think you really should make a drawing. top view, side view. nothing fancy 3D.
<wpwrak>
there is ALWAYS wiggle room ;-) are you an engineer or a theoretical mathematician ? ;-) (a joke in german, from a mathematician: "As gibt zwei Zweige der Mathematik, die angewandte Mathematik und die abgewandte Mathematik.")
<DocScrutinizer05>
our switches are ~0.2mm too high ATM
<DocScrutinizer05>
which already defeats their proper operation
<wpwrak>
ah, dremel time ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh? we're talking PCB layout here, not DIY
<wpwrak>
i mean if they're too high, the bump into something, right ? so you'd have to make room.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no, you can't dremel anything here, except maybe the switch's moving part
<DocScrutinizer05>
since when you dremel the PCB you remove the soldering pads at edge of PCB that the switch is soldered to
<wpwrak>
no no, i don't mean dremel'ing the PCB. that would be silly. well, unless you tweak a prototype. then anything goes.
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, THIS doesn't
<wpwrak>
i mean that "too high" would suggest a conflict with something else.
<wpwrak>
well, or filter out the incorrect use by software: buffer rocker input by T, then check if both are activated. if yes, cancel the volume up/down event(s) in the buffer.
<DocScrutinizer05>
the upper thing with concave D is the rocker, the huge thing in center is the axis
<wpwrak>
(gap) ah, i see
<DocScrutinizer05>
between both there's a gap of ~0.2mm
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus when you push on middle/center of the volume rocker, *both* switches operate
<wpwrak>
so it seems that you can't change that. welcome, software solution :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
nonsense
<DocScrutinizer05>
how am I supposed to not be able to change that?
<wpwrak>
isn;t the rocker switch a single mechanical unit ?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
again, we are talking PCB prototyping here
<DocScrutinizer05>
next prototype, the switches sit 0.2mm deeper
<DocScrutinizer05>
into the PCB
<wpwrak>
so it isn't a single item then
<DocScrutinizer05>
this is PROTOTYPING for Neo900
<wpwrak>
relax :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
isn't exiting/upsetting me what you aim at?
<wpwrak>
your descriptions are particularly difficult to understand today. maybe it's time for that weekly hour of sleep ? :)
<wpwrak>
naw, i'm struggling with comprehending what exactly you're describing
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, had ~20 in the last 30
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm describing existing problems of Neo900 first mech prototype PCB, and ideas for the final product
<wpwrak>
yes yes, the high-level view is clear. it's the details where things get fuzzy. and alas, the details matter, especially when it comes to mechanical things.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I think we can embed LEDs with about same precision we need for those switches
<DocScrutinizer05>
so I don't see why I have to make LEDs protrude a 0.1mm when we can do better anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
we even MUST do better
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g. for switches
<DocScrutinizer05>
witch are mounted quite similar to the way I want to mount those LEDs
<wpwrak>
what kind of LED do you intend to use ? not the normal T-shaped one, i suppose ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
0.2mm is about as much you press down a button to make the switch operate
<DocScrutinizer05>
I never seen T-shaped LEDs
<DocScrutinizer05>
normal 0804 or 1206 or whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
when they need to be 0.8mm wide then it's pretty easy to determine the oh-x-oh-y SMD package, though i'm lazy now
<DocScrutinizer05>
My LEDs look like a brick
<wpwrak>
they are 0.8 mm wide
<wpwrak>
aha !
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, maybe they have "feet" but that's not any problem since such feet can go into holes in the corners of the bay
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, actually they may look like the photo you have there
<DocScrutinizer05>
excellent, since then we can push them in to fit from inside to outside (or from bottom, relative to the LED), thanks to the slightly conical shape
<wpwrak>
it's those feet that i'm worried about. you have only about 0.5 mm between top surface of the LED and the top of the feet. that means you need a very narrow cut of the PCB and you end up with a fragile structure there
<wpwrak>
yes, if you can get it to work, it would hold them in place rather well
<DocScrutinizer05>
how's that structure "fragile"?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not only 0.5mm high, it's also just 0.3mm wide
<wpwrak>
if you want to make a "bay" into which something with "sharp" corners fits, you have to make a dent because the mill can only make round inner corners
<wpwrak>
that's what you see in this picture
<wpwrak>
so you can't make things arbitrarily small in this sort of concave structures
<DocScrutinizer05>
we'll see
<wpwrak>
if things are convex, you can make your corners as pointy as you like, no problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't care how round the concave corners get, we simply make them wide enough
<wpwrak>
yes, but that also means that the remaining material gets thinner and more fragile
<DocScrutinizer05>
after all, the whole structure doesn't have to be exceptionally rugged anyway, since the surface is flusg and plain and inly 0.8mm high
<wpwrak>
also, a mill has usually a depth to diameter ratio of about 2:1. so for your 0.8 mm PCB it would be about 0.4 mm
<DocScrutinizer05>
flsuh* even
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, thanks for sparring
<wpwrak>
heh, always fun :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems those LEDs have contact pads on upper side of their 'feet', eh?
<wpwrak>
the gold goes around, yes. so you could solder on both sides
<DocScrutinizer05>
fine
<wpwrak>
they're not intended for upside-down mounting, though, because of mechanical tolerances
<DocScrutinizer05>
mount them "from below2 then
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, good point
<wpwrak>
the ones for upside-down have larger legs
<DocScrutinizer05>
know what, maybe I use lightguide plastic and mount the leds 'remote'
<wpwrak>
and they recommend HUGE holes in the PCB for them. but that may in part also anticipate those dogbones (since a hole is a concave cut, you get them here as well)
<wpwrak>
that sounds like a good idea
<wpwrak>
more work, but also a lot more flexibility
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
with a bit of nifty thinking we ight be able to abuse the PCB as lightguide
<wpwrak>
heh :)
<wpwrak>
install a side-facing LED upside-down ? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
though, that would drastically reduce efficiency
<wpwrak>
they may not like you at the SMT fab when you come with that idea ;-)
<wpwrak>
what kind of distance between LED and PCB edge do you have in mind ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
heh, told you about that embedded-components PCB technoligy lately ;-)
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<wpwrak>
still sounds scary :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you know what's scary? the damn LEDs that emit sideways to illuminate the kbd domesheet lightguide
<wpwrak>
why are they scary ? just because they face sideways ? or do they have other odd properties ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
0.6mm high (guess)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe less
<wpwrak>
that's the LED to PCB edge distance (i.e., the "light guide") ?
<wpwrak>
soldering looks a little strange. well, side-facing leds are nothing new. we even had them in openmoko :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
not these critters
<wpwrak>
btw, what kind of camera do you use ?
<wpwrak>
(leds) no, the openmoko ones had a different shape
<DocScrutinizer05>
1.8mm long
<DocScrutinizer05>
1mm wide
<DocScrutinizer05>
0.4mm high??
<DocScrutinizer05>
err, 0.4mm is the domesheet you see next to the LED in the second picture
<DocScrutinizer05>
*incl* the silver foil and two protective films
<DocScrutinizer05>
so the LED might be 0.3mm
<wpwrak>
wow, very flat
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wonder what we shall use for those
<wpwrak>
btw, you may want to invest some of that neo900 money into getting a better camera. you n900 camera seems quite good for a phone cam, but the graininess and what looks like artefacts are pretty bad in those close-ups.
<DocScrutinizer05>
artifacts are due to max digital zoom
<DocScrutinizer05>
no other way to get a semi-decent shot of that small component details
<wpwrak>
well, ask them: you do want THIS in the future, or would you rather have THAT ? :)
<wpwrak>
well, look at my picture. that's without digital zoom.
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, i need to sort that on a more radical level
<DocScrutinizer05>
project management has to move to me
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<wpwrak>
well, it can have advantages if someone else takes care of the paperwork
<DocScrutinizer05>
about to get stuff sorted to set up a business/company/UG/GmbH
<wpwrak>
but he should understand that you need decent tools to do your work
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, that's the problem, I can't do paperwork (not even draw) ;-D
<wpwrak>
and especially in this kind of project good pictures are important. also for the community.
<DocScrutinizer05>
good schematics are also essential
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-S
<wpwrak>
kinda, yes :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
not something where you don't find signals among all GND and VDD lines
<wpwrak>
hmm, don't draw so many GND and VDD lines ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the problem, I'm not _allowed_ to draw anything (at least not based on GolDeliCo eagle schematics)
<wpwrak>
hmm ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nikolaus defines my tasks a tad different
<DocScrutinizer05>
one project one project file one editor/developer
<DocScrutinizer05>
and that's him
<DocScrutinizer05>
when I want changes in anything, i please send sketches (you know i hate sketching on paper) or better yet lyrics
<wpwrak>
that may not be the smartest division of work ...
<wpwrak>
maybe he wants you do get better at sketching ;-)))
<wpwrak>
#s/do/to/
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<DocScrutinizer05>
and my argument that my schematics review and debugging skills get stifled by the schematics style... well, i'm basically not supposed to review schematics
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly since i'd possibly need a professional license for Eagle eventually, to do that. And (here he's right) Eagle doesn't really support concurrent edits
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then, he plans to have some 2 weeks holiday now afaik. I could completely redraw the schematics in that time and no concurrent editing would happen. But he doesn't like to even consider such approach, probably he likes his own style too much
<wpwrak>
in gta02-core several people worked on the schematics. (kicad, but it doesn't know about concurrent edits either) wasn't a big deal. you just need to communicate a bit.
<wpwrak>
(2 weeks of revolution) pity
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe kicad differs here
<wpwrak>
we checked everything into SVN (now it would be git)
<DocScrutinizer05>
won't fly for eagle
<wpwrak>
if you planned to work on some sheet, you told the others on IRC
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can't work on a single sheet of a project, in eagle
<DocScrutinizer05>
when the project is multisheet
<wpwrak>
ah, one file to rule them all ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<wpwrak>
that sucks
<DocScrutinizer05>
one .brd and one .shm
<wpwrak>
in kicad each sheet is a separate file
<DocScrutinizer05>
and forward/back annotation between the two
<wpwrak>
boards are just one file, though. but i guess for boards you don't want to parallelize too much anyway.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and of course ERC/DRC across all sheets and the board
<wpwrak>
in kicad i always use a forward flow. i think it has some backannotation but i'm not even sure what it actually does.
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, basically first thing you want is to click a component in one notation and see it highlighted in the other notation
<DocScrutinizer05>
sucks to search for N1140 on board
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you spitted something about N1140 to check, while reading schem
<DocScrutinizer05>
spotted even
<DocScrutinizer05>
no matter what, maemo users donated to that project just because they know *me* and my EE background, and because of me telling them I will check the device for any bugs to make sure it works before we ship. So Eagle and proofreading is mandatory
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I won't content with anything less in quality than the GTA02 schematics, when it comes to publishing those
<DocScrutinizer05>
which already gives me headache, since in eagle it's obviously impossible to have proper searchable strings in a pdf printout
<DocScrutinizer05>
not to talk about component placement, but well, we didn't manage that with PADS either
<DocScrutinizer05>
Eagle schematics are quality like PADS component placement printouts
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems everything is just bitmap in pdf
<wpwrak>
(highlight in both) kicad does that. alas, at least in the version i have, there's a bug, so it sometimes hangs when both schematics and pcb are open at the same time. should check if they've fixed it since ...
<wpwrak>
(you're having edit rights) yes, doesn't make sense to make you go through nikolaus. that's weird.
<wpwrak>
ah, my camera has an image stabilizer. didn't even know that :) now i understand why pictures with very long exposure look implausibly good ;-)
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<ysionneau>
w/win 47
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<kristianpaul>
hmm i tought there will be instrucions to flash nanonote from owrt, but they point to qi wiki
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<wpwrak_>
DocScrutinizer05: btw, if shopping for a camera, this one looks like a nice choice: similar characteristics as mine but slightly higher resolution, you can get as close as 1 cm (mine: 2 cm), quite good light sensitivity, and also a nice display. also, it's dirt cheap for al it can do.
<wpwrak_>
it doesn't have a lot of manual controls but there's always CHDK .. :)
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<nickoe>
wpwrak_: adding the "allow holes" after the "unit mm" will make fped segfault.
<wpwrak_>
are you using the latest version from git ? could be that it didn't work in the past
<wpwrak_>
at least the example you posted yesterday or so worked with "allow holes"
<wpwrak_>
ah, and fped can sometimes crash. there's a weird bug *somewhere* that's really good hiding from me. it's somehow connected to deleting things. so save often.
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<nickoe>
wpwrak_: I am on 23a3348
<nickoe>
(it says so in the window title)
<nickoe>
not exactly the latest, rebuilding
<nickoe>
newest seem to not sfault
<wpwrak_>
yes ! victory ! :)
<wpwrak_>
23a3348 was loong before "allow holes". interesting that it crashed, though
<wpwrak_>
syntax error handling seems to be fine, though