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<paul_boddie>
wpwrak: Yes, that's where I saw it. Wonder which exploit they're trying for!
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<larsc>
2none
<larsc>
they are trying to post a random comment
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<nicksydney>
hello all
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: what's happening over there :)
<wpwrak>
the evil daystar just woke me
<wpwrak>
larsc: at least they're bold. trying that right in the midst of the lion's den.
<nicksydney>
hahahah
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: how's the lab setup going ? getting ready to roll ? :)
<nicksydney>
yeah....got the printer and the paper....jaycar closed when i reach there so didn't get the PCB kit
<nicksydney>
i'm going to try to print using the photo paper i bought
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<wpwrak>
that pcb kit you mentioned wouldn't be much use anyway since it's for photochemical
<wpwrak>
if you have printer and paper, all you need are some copper-clad pcbs, an acid, and some containers that don't melt from the acid and that have a flat bottom
<nicksydney>
what kind of acid ?
<nicksydney>
i will get the PCB from that same store that sell the PCB kit
<nicksydney>
this is interesting "Bondall Hydrochloric Acid is the solution for acid etching concrete, brick and pavers to adequately prepare the surface prior to sealing or painting. It is also great for cleaning and polishing brick or metal and adjusting the pH level in pools." .... now they should add also for etching PCB :)
<wpwrak>
yeah, don't get more than 1 l. even half a liter would last for a very long time. do you have a place outdoors where you can store it ? garden, shed, balcony, ... ?
<wpwrak>
a place where kids and pets won't get to it
<nicksydney>
yeah...i can keep it outside in the garden
<wpwrak>
perfect. the bottle will give off a little bit of chloride gas. enough to corrode metals if it's locked up together with them. that's why it's best to keep it outside, so the gas gets just vented off
<wpwrak>
next, you'll need H2O2, peroxide. you should get a small bottle of ~5% at the pharmacy. if you can in addition find something with a higher concentration (up to 30%), even better
<wpwrak>
the weak one is enough to make a suitable solution. but it gets better: you can reuse the acid almost indefinitely, but you have to add small amounts of HCl and peroxide from time to time. especially the peroxide escapes relatively quickly.
<wpwrak>
for "topping off" the etchant, peroxide with a higher concentration works best, since it adds less water and thus the brew doesn't get diluted so much
<wpwrak>
mixing is about two parts 3-5% peroxide and one part HCl
<wpwrak>
you need just enough of both that both side the of the PCB will be covered. so a layer of about 2-3 mm at the bottom of the "tupperware"
<wpwrak>
regarding the "tupperware", make it the side of your typical PCB, which will generally be small. something like 6 x 6 cm may be enough. no need to go bigger than 10 x 10 cm. the bottom should be perfectly flat. and it should have a lit for airtight sealing (since you'll want to keep that acid for reuse)
<wpwrak>
note that the HCl+H2O2 combo doesn't need heating. some other acids do, especially FeCl. so if you find online articles explaining how to balance all the mess on your oven, just ignore them :)
<wpwrak>
ah, and while you're at it, get discardable gloves. latex or similar. they usually come in boxes of 100 units or so.
<wpwrak>
regarding the mixing: mix the solution before putting the PCB. then stir it, e.g., with a wooden stick (skewer or such)
<wpwrak>
if you need to add anything with the PCB already in the bath, then do that as far as possible from the PCB and stir immediately. else, you may get spots where the etchant is a lot more potent than elsewhere, which can produce highly uneven etching
<wpwrak>
lots of details but it's not really all that complicated :)
<nicksydney>
ok let me write a summary for myself
<wpwrak>
ah, when done etching, just grab the PCB with your gloves fingers, wipe the etchant off the PCB with the stick, then wash off the remaining acid with tap water
<nicksydney>
if i want to throw the HCL+H2O2 combo can i just throw it in the garden ?
<wpwrak>
the quantity of acid that's left is very low, so it won't attack anything. first rinse, then take off the gloves and rob the board with your fingers to get rid of the last bits. you want to make sure the board is completely acid-free when done. (else, it would continue etching away, eventually destroying your board)
<wpwrak>
only if you hate your garden and what lives in it ;)
<wpwrak>
a better approach is to let the open container sit in the sun for a while, so that all the water can evaporate. then you're left with blue-green crystals. you can scrape them out, wrap them watertight, and discard them as solid garbage.
<nicksydney>
hahaaha...ok got it
<nicksydney>
ok understand
<nicksydney>
explain to me bit more about " 3-5% peroxide and one part HCl"
<nicksydney>
let's take the measurement of the cap of the boottle
<nicksydney>
bottle
<wpwrak>
but as i said, that etchant can be reused. so disposal is usually a very rare event.
<wpwrak>
yes, any small container will do. measure the quantity you want, then drop it into the "tupperware". then add the other
<wpwrak>
many sources recommend doing this with the perixode first, then the acid. to avoid dropping things into a concentrated acid. not sure if it matters.
<wpwrak>
in any case, don't spill anything (and if you do, wash it off with a lot of water, then apply some soapy detergent - usually alkaline - over the affected area to neutralize the acid)
<wpwrak>
lemme snap a picture of my setup ...
<nicksydney>
cool
<nicksydney>
picture worth thousands word :)
<wpwrak>
hmm, in half an hour. camera commands me to change thebattery pack :-(
<nicksydney>
ok no worries......do I need to add water into the container when I combine HCL and H2O2 together ?
<wpwrak>
they already come with the water. HCL is only 35% and the peroxide even much lower. all the rest is good old water.
<wpwrak>
you'd only need to worry about adding water if you used a very strong concentration of peroxide. in theory, peroxide could go up to 100% (or almost). but at some point it'll just spontaneously explode :)
<wpwrak>
peroxide is an interesting chemical. starts as desinfectant. then you can use it to bleach hair. then you can use it to burn off layers of skin. then you can use it as rocket fuel. and then you get an unstable explosive :)
<nicksydney>
crazy
<nicksydney>
ok must be very careful in handling it
<wpwrak>
at 3-5% you're in the desinfectant range. at 10% you'd be in the bleaching range. 30% and it's the burn off of skins (at that point, gloves are no longer just a precaution :)
<wpwrak>
and unless you have good friends at the next missile base, you may not find it easy to go beyond 30% :)
<wpwrak>
that is, for the front layer. the back layer will be mirrored by default
<wpwrak>
you can tell whether it's mirrored by looking at text. if you can read if normally, it's wrong. (that why i always put some text on both sides)
<nicksydney>
ok...the measurement of the board is 3cm wide is that right ?
<nicksydney>
do i need to change anything on the 'Approx. Scale' ?
<wpwrak>
just keep accurate scale. no idea what "approx scale" is supposed to mean. sounds scary.
<nicksydney>
looks like something is offf...it's not printing the round wheel
<wpwrak>
ah the arc
<wpwrak>
ah yes, that's because you used "print"
<wpwrak>
"print" doesn't work. you have to use "plot" ,make a postscript, then print that postscript
<nicksydney>
ok need to find out way to print the postscript
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: how do you normally do ?
<wpwrak>
"lpr filename" :)
<nicksydney>
using plot got few files with extension .gbl, .gbo, .gbr,etc
<nicksydney>
but no .ps file
<wpwrak>
that's because you didn't tell it to generate postscript
<wpwrak>
default is Gerber, hence the *.g*
<nicksydney>
managed to generate .pdf f
<nicksydney>
is it correct that the size of anelok is like 3cm ?
<wpwrak>
the pcb is 25 x 80 mm
<nicksydney>
bloody hell.....even my pinky size is double the size of the freescale processor
<nicksydney>
how in the hell i'm going to solder this :)
<nicksydney>
hahahhahaha
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
with a steady hand and a lot of flux :)
<nicksydney>
basically you dip the pcb into the flux :)
<wpwrak>
well, that may actually work :)
<nicksydney>
the processor is it LQFP or QFN ?
<wpwrak>
48-QFN, 0.5 mm pitch
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<nicksydney>
going to have a hard time soldering those if i manage to get a hand on that
<wpwrak>
the actual soldering isn't the diffcult part. what's tricky is the positioning.
<wpwrak>
it's kinda difficult to align the pads with the traces. and since it's a large package, it's also possible to get confused and have it off by one position.
<wpwrak>
so it's not the errors in the 0.1 mm range (general imprecision) that should worry you but the ones in the 0.25-0.5 mm range (caused by proper alignment, but with the wrong trace or with the space between traces)
<nicksydney>
maybe should try to rework the pcb and make it one sided only to make it easier for me to try it out
<nicksydney>
i'll try to do that for my exercise
<nicksydney>
when you say you do 'lpr filename' what is the file that you print...is that the .ps file ?
<wpwrak>
hmm, i'd recommend starting with a new design. just oled, mcu, and touch sensor
<wpwrak>
yes, the .ps
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<wpwrak>
oh, assuming you have a postscript interpreter in the path
<wpwrak>
not sure what happens with non-ps printers. i'd expect cups to take care of it.
<wpwrak>
(i only have ps printers. never worry about printer drivers :)
<nicksydney>
it generate few .ps files
<nicksydney>
which means i need to combine those files together ?
<wpwrak>
just print anelok-F_Cu.ps and anelok-B_Cu.ps
<wpwrak>
the others are for other layers. layers you don't really need.
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: but it doesn't work in Linux .. need to flash a new bootloader as the current bootloader does not work with Linux..did you have to do the same with yours ?
<wpwrak>
then all you need is oled, the few caps and resistors for the oled, and the touch sensor
<wpwrak>
ah yes, i did that. wasn't painful.
<wpwrak>
see anelok/pgm/README
<wpwrak>
section "Updating/installing the P&E firmware"
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<nicksydney>
yes i'm reading that
<nicksydney>
the painful part is finding Windows box
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: if you look at this picture ... the board with anelok printout (http://ctrlv.in/267322) it shows that anelok is very small but if you look at your picture ( http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/anelok/tmp/brd0-d1-top.jpg ) the size is almost the same...which makes me wonder whether the file i'm printing is correct in terms of size or i'm missing something
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<rjeffries>
xiangfu do you know what happened to remaining stock of Ben Nanonote? Thank you.
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: ok i'm bit lost here ..according to this product brief (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1691542.pdf) the MCU size is 7mm x 7mm while I measure thr printout the size for the MCU is aaround 3mm ... so there must be something wrong in the print out
<rjeffries>
nickydney if you munge wpwrak 's practical, step-by-step advice re: making PCBs into a guide, you (and he) could publish and help many people, including me.
<nicksydney>
rjeffries: wpwrak has published a tutorial about making PCB
<rjeffries>
yet you need to ask many questions, so it woudl seem the tutorial needs work. LOL just sayin'
<nicksydney>
:)...nah sometimes there are things that does not work according to documentation. .. so need to confirm
<roh>
yep. your printout looks wrong size
<roh>
maybe a metric/"§$%& problem.. maybe just factor 2
<nicksydney>
tried printing using File --> Print and selected 'Scale 3' from 'Approx. Scale' and I can get measurement for the MCU at 7mm x 7mm
<roh>
measure the longest side of the pcb
<roh>
biggest structure. the mcu is too small for a proper scale check
<nicksydney>
thanks roh...will try again tomorrow....
<nicksydney>
heading off to la-la-land :)
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<wpwrak>
nicksydney: it does look a little small. but ... where did you get the MCU size ? the square pad isn't 7x7 mm. it's only about 5x5 mm
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: in any case, in "plot", remove the check mark from "Exclude PCB edge layer from other layers". that way, you get the pcb border (you'll want this for positioning later on, too)
<wpwrak>
then you can measure the board dimensions. should be 25 x 80 mm
<wpwrak>
(i kinda wonder whether you really used "Plot" ... i don't even see PDF there, so it seems a bit surprising that you ended up with PDF insead of PS. well, maybe it's a difference between our versions. but still, strange)
<wpwrak>
all is is a plastic box. so i can move it out of harm's way. the small container (white lid) is what i use for most things. it's 10 x 10 cm. it sits in a larger glass container that catches any spills. not that spills would be very common - and when they happen, i just let them dry.
<whitequark>
yeah distortions are the worst :/
<whitequark>
I've once had my printer (driver?) add a nonlinear distortion somehow
<whitequark>
that was painful to debug
<wpwrak>
sounds suckish, yes
<wpwrak>
kewl. case snaps closed and wheel actually can be spun. first time ever :)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: this is what I'm seeing when I'm using File --> Plot .. http://ctrlv.in/267508 (top left saying PDF)
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<nicksydney>
wpwrak: this is my another attemp using 'Exlude PCB...' ... you see the measurement is seems very off .. http://ctrlv.in/267510
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: could it be that the driver is the issue ?
<nicksydney>
ok be back later going out first
<wpwrak>
(pdf) ah, interesting. so they added PDF recently. that's nice.
<wpwrak>
(size) 7x7 mm is correct. but that's the size of the chip, not the size of the center pad. so unless you calculate the size of the chip from what you see in the printed layout, you'll get something incorrect.
<wpwrak>
ah yes, that's rather small :)
<wpwrak>
that's about 37.5 mm
<wpwrak>
off by a factor 2.13
<wpwrak>
can you generate PS directly ? maybe something goes wrong when going PDF -> PS
<wpwrak>
could of course also be that the printer driver does weird things
<wpwrak>
at least your printer is good enough to handle even such tiny sizes. so you can keep up if i use smaller chips ;-)