Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
jurting has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
Jurting_pc2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
famine has joined #qi-hardware
urandom__ has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
wolfspra1l has quit [Quit: leaving]
wolfspraul has joined #qi-hardware
<famine>
evening
<wolfspraul>
ok it looks like the move from the old buildhost was successful, I am now shutting down the old machine
<wpwrak>
yeah, the schematis histories look good
<wolfspraul>
and if there are no hickups, I will cancel/return the contract in a few hours
<wolfspraul>
yes, and without kernel randomizer fix even :-)
<wpwrak>
amazing :)
<wpwrak>
what did we need it for in the first place ?
<wolfspraul>
I need to look into upleveling the patches again at some point, though there is no urgency right now
<wolfspraul>
ghost diffs
<wolfspraul>
remember?
<wolfspraul>
my notes beat your brain! :-)
<wolfspraul>
there were ghost diffs that you sort-of traced back to an uninitialized variable inside eeschema somewhere...
<wpwrak>
oh :) must be old age rotting my wetware ...
nerd has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2]
mirko_ is now known as mirko
<wolfspraul>
has anyone worked with an nfc chip?
rz2k has joined #qi-hardware
<wolfspraul>
roh: do you know a cheap nfc chip?
<wolfspraul>
I am wondering whether I can hookup one to my slx9 fpga...
<wpwrak>
specifically for nfc or just for some sort of wireless communication ? if it's the latter case, why not use wpan ? to keep things simple, you can even just add a uSD socket and plug an atben into it.
<kristianpaul>
why not bluetooth? ;-)
<kristianpaul>
most phone have bluetooth haha
<kristianpaul>
ok sorry
<kristianpaul>
but nfc still been intrododuced right
<kristianpaul>
sounds interesting at least i hope can do what IR never could.. well :-)
<wolfspraul>
I was thinking about something that can have a phone on the other side, so wpan won't work
<wolfspraul>
and just learning about nfc
<wpwrak>
ah yes, then things get more complicated
<kristianpaul>
wifi :-)
<kristianpaul>
roh: pointed some small wifi boards i remenber
<wolfspraul>
my question was about nfc
<kristianpaul>
ok
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: what phones are your target? all nfc then?
<famine>
kristianpaul, yea NFC is standard on all newer samsungs
<roh>
wolfspraul: nope.. nfc is boring and useless.. nobody uses it... kinda like zigbee
<roh>
lots of talk. basically zero serious applications, extremely bad support
<wpwrak>
good that you said "zigbee" and not "ieee 802.15.4" :)
<wpwrak>
and i'd agree on your view of nfc. they all seem to get excited mainly about this being the next form of payment. but then, the existing means are efficient enough. as an added bonus, most people trust them. now, compare this to a computer that's vulnerable to viri and so on ...
<roh>
wpwrak: sorry.. but people who are stupid enough to put money on android phones.. dont need nfc to get robbed.
<wpwrak>
but of course, the prospect of being able to get a foot in the money flow may just be too irresistible ...
<roh>
also its more than idiotic to use something rf for that when you are there already.
<wpwrak>
well, there are some advanteges in having a completely contact-free technology. but then, given the circumstances ...
<roh>
so i hope that gets handled similar to CC in serious business...
<roh>
either cash or electronic cash (with chip and pin).. but if you accept a CC its more expensive, has a minimum transaction value etc.
<wpwrak>
credit cards are very well received by serious business
<wpwrak>
some places put a surcharge on their use, but most don't
<xiangfu>
what about bluetooth ? I bought some bluetooth serial modular. for my mini-slx9 board talk to nowaday device, (android etc)
<roh>
wpwrak: well.. cc usually mean 'more cost due to fraud'. so its only fair accepting them only for a surcharge.
<xiangfu>
I bought there are a looot of bluetooth profiles.
<wpwrak>
chip and pin still isn't universal. e.g., around here, you only have the magnet strip. a while ago, visa were foolish enough to ask for the chip. this caused retailers to fall back to fully manual entry. they dropped the charade within a few days.
<roh>
wpwrak: atleast thats what businesses here do which i know. for one the broker access iss seriously expensive, and for the second you got no gurantee that you got your money. even if somebody was there physicly
<roh>
i know that its different in europe to other places. but here i dont need a cc and i dont want one. simply too broken system (which makes it expensive)
<wpwrak>
roh: i know that localized solutions are popular in germany, simply because the local market is fairly large. but on an international scale, there's no way around credit cards (or paypal, if you must)
<wpwrak>
i think the cc system is great
<roh>
wpwrak: its nothing special. just chip and pin by force. the magstripe is unused nowadays
<wpwrak>
it puts the burden of keeping things safe on the companies, not on the customer
<wolfspraul>
oh well, not much nfc experience then I guess
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<roh>
wpwrak: why? it allows fraud and thus makes stuff more expensive for us, the customers. thats a bad system
<roh>
chip/pin basically moves that all to the banks. not the customer, not the retailer.
<wpwrak>
fraud can be countered. it's not only a question of keeping the act of paying safe but also of tracking down the criminals
<wolfspraul>
to me it looks like nfc may have a breakthrough in the next few years
<wpwrak>
make it decades or perhaps centuries and i may agree :)
<roh>
wolfspraul: i dont think so.. maybe for getting robbed
<wpwrak>
roh: chip&pin hase its issues. one is global acceptance. another is that it's "too safe". so if there is an invalid transaction, the client gets screwed because it's "impossible" for a criminal to break the system. and we all know that IT is like a swiss cheese.
<roh>
wpwrak: as long as there is a customer or retailer the bank can blame, nothing will change.
<wpwrak>
roh: see, that's the beauty of credit cards: everyone knows they're insecure. so the customer gets great protection. meanwhile, the companies have a massive incentive to do something about cutting down fraud.
<roh>
and since the bank is much more powerful, there needs to be a generic bias to make it work at all.
<roh>
wpwrak: well.. thats why retailers around here dont take CC. THEY are the ones who loose.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i think nfs is one of those solutions waiting for a problem. if you can provide one, nfc may be the success of your lifetime. else, join the crowd already in the tar pit :)
<roh>
my point isnt that the system is shit. its that the wrong ones pay for its brokenness.. the customer. that is why i find it very ok and right that there are retailers who ALSO take CC, but add a atleast 10E per invoice surcharge for CC use.
<roh>
wpwrak: and which of those problems wasnt already solved by atleast 2 different widely popular rf standards?
<wpwrak>
roh: not even big chains ? even in argentina, the major supermarkets accept credit cards without a fuss. smaller shops don't (because they lack the terminals) or add a surcharge.
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
let's just look at facts. what chips are available
<wolfspraul>
what devices support them, what payment systems/networks or in general 'vendors' accept them
<wolfspraul>
who puts marketing money behind them
<wolfspraul>
etc. etc.
<roh>
wpwrak: no. for one: every person with a bank account HAS a chip for years now, and second.. what interrest whould a retailer have?
<wolfspraul>
and it's a big world, if Asia leads on this (which I don't even think), then that alone will drive tech whether Europe gets it now or a few years later :-)
<roh>
i mean.. chip and pin is beep, type, ok, done.. 5sec.
<wolfspraul>
people here love to swipe some card at 7-11 etc
<roh>
why do something like card and autograph when it takes more time?
<wpwrak>
roh: here it's sweep, beep, error code ;-)
<wpwrak>
roh: they they go searching for someone who knows how to work around it (by falling back to some archaic protocol)
<wolfspraul>
I just noticed apple added nfc in the iphone5, that's a good indicator to take a closer look
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<roh>
or rather.. why accept a system which blames you the retailer while being obviously badly designed by a bank
<wolfspraul>
they get it wrong sometimes, but less so than other tech corps
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: steve jobs is dead. thus so are the visions, it seems. don't look for leadersthip there.
<wolfspraul>
alright then. but I try to understand nfc :-)
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<wolfspraul>
will pay more attention, first step is to find more chips
<wolfspraul>
if I can't find cheap chips, it will stop right there for me
<roh>
i really like cash to be fair. much more complicated to loose
<roh>
wpwrak: btw.. even with a chip and pin card you usually have a minimum turnover in most stores.
<roh>
wpwrak: because regardless of which card/system one uses.. its all more people involved who want their cut on that transaction
<roh>
wolfspraul: nfc is the new irda
<roh>
*veg*
<wolfspraul>
well let's see
<roh>
similar range and applications
<wolfspraul>
I think the dimensions are totally different nowadays, nfc may be in the hands of 2 billion people when irda probably never went above even 10 million
<wolfspraul>
I am not pushing nfc in any way, I don't care about the tech
<roh>
i've seen people use it to transfer a vcard once... 2 samsung phones back to back.... why they didnt just send the file via jabber which they use to chat all day long via 3g.. i dont know *g*
<wolfspraul>
I am just looking at the environment and see things are happening, wonder whether I can make use of it, and done :-)
<wolfspraul>
I was asking about nfc chips, will do some more research
<roh>
wolfspraul: no. nfc is in <1% of the highest end smartphones which less than 1 in 6 persons on this earth owns
<roh>
which makes it way worse available than something like paypal. i rather think they will be the new money than nfc
<wpwrak>
roh: (cut) yeah. the terminal itself has a cost. often, after that, the differences are minor.
<roh>
wpwrak: the terminal is rented. from a company doing the service, which then has contracts with banks...
<roh>
and you only rent via your bank from that company.. so its atleast 2 or 3 parties extra on YOUR side, not involving the cc company of the holder yet ;)
<roh>
yes its stupid... but well.. its banks and similar ones
<wpwrak>
:)
<roh>
wpwrak: for the congress we always have that issue. so we got some of these terminals and or an online broker
<roh>
wpwrak: bottomline.. its REALLY expensive.. hundredts of euros per month extra only for getting access (no transactions yet)
<roh>
thus we add those to the CC prices.
<wolfspraul>
actually I may have been wrong about the iphone5 and nfc - not sure whether it has is or not... for completeness
<roh>
wpwrak: there is also a per transaction fee i think. well. its still not fair to ask people not using a broken system to pay for it. so its only the CC users.
Jurting_pc2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
mth_ has joined #qi-hardware
mth has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
Jurting_pc2 has joined #qi-hardware
LunaVorax has joined #qi-hardware
LunaVorax has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
nerd has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.3.9.2]
nerd has joined #qi-hardware
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: perhaps the lack of BT security is not a problem if think is a free on the air protocol :-)
<kristianpaul>
but this had been long been shiped in phones
<kristianpaul>
my old se have BT and irda ;)
panda|x201 has joined #qi-hardware
panda|x201 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
<xiangfu>
kristianpaul, any advices on bluetooth chip/modular/profiles?
<xiangfu>
I want it direct communicate with nowaday mobile device.