Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
<kristianpaul>
seems J1 forth is cool for solving those problems with less verilog and fancy hihg level optimization
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<zrafa>
hi
<zrafa>
how are you qiers?
<zrafa>
One comment/question: some of you tried to build an openrwrt rootfs and then to replace some android rootfs (in a phone or tablet) with the openwrt rootfs built?
<wpwrak>
zrafa: the qi-world is quite silent these days ...
<zrafa>
wpwrak: hi!! :)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: I will do some noise to not let you sleep :)
<wpwrak>
hmm, android kernel with openwrt rootfs. i guess that would depend a lot on how android distributes things between initramfs and rootfs.
<zrafa>
which would help for statitistics as well
<wpwrak>
yeah ;-)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: yes. Some guy showed me here at uni
<zrafa>
wpwrak: a samsung phone with android, and he said me that he is able to replace kernel only, or android rootfs with another android rootfs, etc
<zrafa>
wpwrak: Then I checked a bit the old android version for freerunner
<zrafa>
s
<zrafa>
and I saw init at least in the android rootfs. Then I was guessing that maybe
<zrafa>
current android phones boot kernel, then mount and run init
<zrafa>
and then android sdk is ran from there.
<wpwrak>
if there is cyanogenmod for your device, that may make things easier. at least i suppose they have full sources for most of the kernel.
<zrafa>
wpwrak: So I was asking me if openwrt/openembedded/whatever could be used
<zrafa>
as rootfs on those phones/tablets
<zrafa>
without to touch kernel part if the kernel part is not distribuited
<zrafa>
(so we do not break everything with out a rescue :P )
<zrafa>
wpwrak: what is cyanongenmod :)
<zrafa>
?
<kristianpaul>
hi rafa
<wpwrak>
cyanogenmod the "free" android for some android devices
<kristianpaul>
"free" indeed...
<wpwrak>
i think cyanogenmod should give you more control over the kernel than you'd have by using a fully closed vendor binary
<GNUtoo-desktop>
not-so-free
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: yeah, still with nasty binary-only drivers
<GNUtoo-desktop>
libraries....
<wpwrak>
GNUtoo-desktop: let's say, with a chain as long as you can get with android :)
<wpwrak>
oh, user space is a different matter.
<GNUtoo-desktop>
indeed
<kristianpaul>
GNUtoo-desktop: libraries as well?
<kristianpaul>
tought was just kernel drivers
<GNUtoo-desktop>
no
<GNUtoo-desktop>
let me explain
<wpwrak>
of course, some hardware bits may need (closed) user space drivers, which would involve also user space directly in hw support
<kristianpaul>
go ahead
<kristianpaul>
ahmm
<GNUtoo-desktop>
you're interested only in cyanogenmod or in all cases?
<GNUtoo-desktop>
because I've a presentation here:
<GNUtoo-desktop>
but having the maximum freedom is very important
<GNUtoo-desktop>
I mean the maximum possible
<GNUtoo-desktop>
for instance with qualcomm the mic is attached to the modem
<wpwrak>
GNUtoo-desktop: yup. it's definitely a step in the right direction
<GNUtoo-desktop>
which makes listennign you when you're not calling possible
<wpwrak>
and having to be selective when it comes to buying hardware isn't anything new
<GNUtoo-desktop>
try to do that with an openmoko.....
<GNUtoo-desktop>
yes
<kristianpaul>
oh no
<kristianpaul>
sure
<GNUtoo-desktop>
kristianpaul, next time talk to me at least
<GNUtoo-desktop>
before buying
<wpwrak>
well, i wouldn't worry too much about the conspiracy theory scenarios. the main issue is functionality.
<kristianpaul>
GNUtoo-desktop: will do
<GNUtoo-desktop>
wpwrak, it really happened for people listened at when they were not in calls
<wpwrak>
of course, in this case, the two may merrily coincide :)
<GNUtoo-desktop>
trough the cases we know are trough court order
<GNUtoo-desktop>
but in so many countries you don't really need a court order for that
<GNUtoo-desktop>
(if it's legal or not is not the question)
<wpwrak>
GNUtoo-desktop: since this is not a universal feature, these must be very specific attacks. at some point, they'll just bug your office, car, and home. so the phone doesn't add a lot more.
<GNUtoo-desktop>
that doesn't scale
<wpwrak>
individualized attacks often don't
<GNUtoo-desktop>
and it requires efforts, money etc....
<wpwrak>
but the "subvert modem firmware" depends on having a device that lets you do that
<GNUtoo-desktop>
in france, very long time ago there was some watergate-ilke scandal
<GNUtoo-desktop>
with the french president mitterand
<wpwrak>
that's what i meant with it not being a universal feature
<GNUtoo-desktop>
he ordered to listen to many personalities's phones
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it was illegal still
<wpwrak>
of course, it's a good idea to avoid such devices, to prevent the feature from becoming more common
<kristianpaul>
GNUtoo-desktop: i was looking functionality and price phone is mostly for work
<GNUtoo-desktop>
ok
<kristianpaul>
but i do consider cynamodgen :)
<kristianpaul>
considered*
<wpwrak>
GNUtoo-desktop: if you start with illegal wiretapping, bugging places is just one very small step. besides, there's already "legal" wiretapping in the networks.
<GNUtoo-desktop>
yes but let's consider that use case:
<GNUtoo-desktop>
I go to some conferences
<GNUtoo-desktop>
and they remote-activate my mic
<GNUtoo-desktop>
so they can listen what I tell
<wpwrak>
it all depends on your threat model. if your government hates you, better start taking precautions. if it's just joe random hacker who may be after you, it's sufficient to not be among the 90% easiest targets.
<kristianpaul>
do you have a simtrace to verify that (remote-activate my mic) ?
<GNUtoo-desktop>
kristianpaul, I've the hardware yes
<GNUtoo-desktop>
like gta04, galaxy nexus, palm pre etc...
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<zrafa>
sorry
<zrafa>
internet sucks here :(
<zrafa>
I read the qi hw irc logs :)
<GNUtoo-desktop>
and wiretaping could be problematic: imagine I'm discussing free software strategy in theses meetings
<GNUtoo-desktop>
ok
<zrafa>
cool, I did not understand anything :(
<zrafa>
sorry
<zrafa>
What are all of you talkinga about? Saying that kernel in android phones would not be useful for an openwrt rootfs (or openembedded, whatever)?
<zrafa>
like you boot those android kernels, mount openwrt rootfs, and then your rootfs built will not work?
<GNUtoo-desktop>
I've no idea how it started
<GNUtoo-desktop>
ah maybe you started talking about android
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: yes, I wanted to ask if somebody tried to build an openwrt rootfs (or openembedded rootfs) to use in an android phone
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: for examplke, without replacing the kernel part
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: if that is a problem (Problem=for example, kernel sources are not available for that phone/tablet)
<GNUtoo-desktop>
yes, me
<GNUtoo-desktop>
what's the device
<GNUtoo-desktop>
?
<GNUtoo-desktop>
because we run android kernels recompiled and modified in SHR
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: I do not have any android phone/tablet :)
<GNUtoo-desktop>
so what's the goal?
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: but I would like to know if most of phones/tablets are similar. It is, if somebody did, then to replicate the work or
<GNUtoo-desktop>
no, it depends a lot on the SOC
<GNUtoo-desktop>
the best ones are the high end samsung ones that do not have qualcomm SOC
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it's very close to GNU/Linux
<GNUtoo-desktop>
else with qualcomm you are very far from GNU/Linux
<GNUtoo-desktop>
with nearly no mainline support
<GNUtoo-desktop>
etc...
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: the goal would be to learn if that is possible, and then to encourage to people to try a real linux on their devices
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: in which way it depends on the soc? I mean, if you have the kernel linux in the android phone (free or not, supposly no, with binary drivers and firmware)
<GNUtoo-desktop>
if the device is high end samsung without qualcomm SOC it's really easy to do it:
<GNUtoo-desktop>
we've already done it for nexus S
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it can be ported easily
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: but it boots and puts the kernel API to rootfs and userspace
<GNUtoo-desktop>
that's the problem:
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<GNUtoo-desktop>
in qualcomm devices for instance they do not have alsa
<GNUtoo-desktop>
or maybe they do recently
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: or do you mean because the arch is too strange that it is difficult to cross compile?
<GNUtoo-desktop>
but it's not usable anyway
<GNUtoo-desktop>
no
<GNUtoo-desktop>
I mean it's a driver problem
<GNUtoo-desktop>
the qualcomm drivers are not standard
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: okey, if qualcomm does not have alsa. How android use the audio thing? With userspace drivers or something like that?
<GNUtoo-desktop>
for instance only to boot GNU/Linux is a pain
<GNUtoo-desktop>
they have a wrapper on top
<GNUtoo-desktop>
they have abstractions layer for audio
<GNUtoo-desktop>
same for every peripherals
<GNUtoo-desktop>
for instance the htc dream had no alsa
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: what is abstractions layers? userspace drivers?
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it had non-standard but free wifi (but firmware is non-free)
<GNUtoo-desktop>
yes
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: sorry for the ignorance
<GNUtoo-desktop>
libraries in userspace
<GNUtoo-desktop>
like the libaudio
<GNUtoo-desktop>
which will talk to java
<GNUtoo-desktop>
which will provide the API that the apps use
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: okey, now I see the problem you are talking about. The problem with a custom linux rootfs is that it would not have many drivers which android rootfs bring
<GNUtoo-desktop>
in all the devices I saw most of the kernel (firmwares apart) were free software
<GNUtoo-desktop>
but in qualcomm devices the drivers were non-standard
<GNUtoo-desktop>
they didn't implement the correct userspace interfaces
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: the companis of those phones/tables publish the sources of those kernels or android user space libraries?
<GNUtoo-desktop>
they publish kernel sources
<GNUtoo-desktop>
usually
<GNUtoo-desktop>
but not the userspace libs
<GNUtoo-desktop>
for instance look at that:
<zrafa>
which are not free software most of them (libs) ?
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: those adb pull are taking the binary non-free software drivers libs?
<GNUtoo-desktop>
yes
<GNUtoo-desktop>
they're taking it from the device
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it's from cyanogenmod
<GNUtoo-desktop>
which uses theses
<zrafa>
ah.. okey.
<GNUtoo-desktop>
we (replicant) don't use them
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: do you know some effort of people documenting devices and if those bring or non complete kernel+drivers as free software, and which not?
<zrafa>
(android devices)
<GNUtoo-desktop>
only the people porting GNU/Linux can tell.....
<GNUtoo-desktop>
but some driver are shim
<GNUtoo-desktop>
some are not
<GNUtoo-desktop>
the ones which are not are sometimes non-standard
<GNUtoo-desktop>
such as audio
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<GNUtoo-desktop>
you get a complete driver in qualcomm devices
<GNUtoo-desktop>
but the interface is very different
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it's ioctl , and you can even send an mp3 to the device
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it's different from the alsa ioctls etc...
<GNUtoo-desktop>
and you can never know what problems you'll face
<GNUtoo-desktop>
but if you know well enough the devices, you can avoid somes
<zrafa>
ah.. okey. And android apps know how to talk with those interfaces of qualcom devices binary drivers right?
<zrafa>
which are non standar
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<GNUtoo-desktop>
yes, the android apps talk to the java framework
<GNUtoo-desktop>
which talks to the libs
<GNUtoo-desktop>
which talks to the kernel
<GNUtoo-desktop>
which talks to the hardware
<zrafa>
ah.. oke. then the java framework are the ones who know how to talk with those nonfree userspace libs/drivers
<GNUtoo-desktop>
the non-free userspace libs implement the same interfaces
<GNUtoo-desktop>
like non-free audio lib from qualcomm
<GNUtoo-desktop>
or non-free audio lib from samsung
<GNUtoo-desktop>
or free lib
<GNUtoo-desktop>
they all use the same interface
<GNUtoo-desktop>
zrafa, I also wonder what's the best way to run GNU/Linux programs on some android devices
<GNUtoo-desktop>
I've looked to it a bit:
<GNUtoo-desktop>
startkde fails in the android Xorg application (android doens't use xorg but that apps implement xorg on top of the android display thing)
<GNUtoo-desktop>
I'll try with vnc soon
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: from your knowledge it seems that the best way to try that is to know if the phone+android there is mostly a linux kernel standar
<arossDOTme>
I am trying to install the latest image onto my sd card and have not had success...
<arossDOTme>
Te .ubi file lives in "/" right?
<arossDOTme>
are 1 or two partions needed? 1 for uImage and 1 for /
<arossDOTme>
Te= the
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<GNUtoo-desktop>
zrafa, yes
<GNUtoo-desktop>
you have 2 SOCs that are good enough:
<GNUtoo-desktop>
The samsung ones (exynos etc...)
<GNUtoo-desktop>
The TI ones (like omap4 for galaxy nexus)
<GNUtoo-desktop>
the 2 phones I know are :
<GNUtoo-desktop>
Galaxy Nexu
<GNUtoo-desktop>
*Galaxy Nexus
<GNUtoo-desktop>
and the Nexus S
<GNUtoo-desktop>
I guess that the rest of the samsung phones are pretty similar(galaxy S for instance is similar to the Nexus S)
<GNUtoo-desktop>
but beware with the audio of galaxy SII
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it's a yamaha CODEC with an driver that is too hard to be understood
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<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: thanks a lot for all the information man
<GNUtoo-desktop>
np
<zrafa>
and now we have the qi hw irc archive logs for future reference ;)
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<wpwrak>
anything nexus is also a good choice if you're staying within the android world
<wpwrak>
so it's good that this overlaps also with real freedom :)
<zrafa>
wpwrak: one example of some "anything nexus"?
<zrafa>
wpwrak: i do not know mucho about nexus devices
<zrafa>
mucho=much
<GNUtoo-desktop>
wpwrak, no
<GNUtoo-desktop>
Nexus 4 is not good
<GNUtoo-desktop>
Nexus one is also not good
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<arossDOTme>
does the order of the partitions really matter?
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<arossDOTme>
I guess the problem is I need to update uboot due to my 32gb sd card
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<arossDOTme>
risks of bricking my NN by upgrading uboot?
<viric>
none
<viric>
it has the 'usbboot' mode
<arossDOTme>
thank you.
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<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: do you know if the android interface changes from time to time (between versions for example).
<GNUtoo-desktop>
yes I know
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it does
<zrafa>
shit
<zrafa>
so if we would have some driver in userspace which "knows" how the android interface works, and then can talk with binary drivers. Then I was thinking that we could have something like this :
<zrafa>
- native linux application (for example, an alsa program to play sounds)
<zrafa>
- userspace driver which shows an alsa API to the alsa applications. And also knows the android sound interface to talk with binary or not sound driverrs.
<zrafa>
- binary or free driver for the audio (in userspace or not. It would be the current driver hard to replace/remove).
<zrafa>
- kernel
<zrafa>
- hw
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: But, if the android api changes then this idea is just useful for an specific android version :P
<GNUtoo-desktop>
that already exist
<GNUtoo-desktop>
libphysis or something like taht
<GNUtoo-desktop>
it's made by a meego person
<zrafa>
GNUtoo-desktop: I do not find info about.. what is that? some middle driver?
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<wpwrak>
not sure if xbboot is actively supported anymore
<wpwrak>
the difference would be that it's two ways (i.e., two different programs) to accomplish the same. so if you run into troubles with one, you can try the other
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<arossDOTme>
thanks and do I need to reflash my nn nand afterwards? I wouldn't have thought so but the wording of the article makes me think again.
<arossDOTme>
I also have 2 goodies for I have put together. They are just under 200lines but could reach 200lines long if some features are added. I guess they don't deserve to be copyrighted(GPL)?
<arossDOTme>
s/for I/, I/
<qi-bot>
arossDOTme meant: "I also have 2 goodies , I have put together. They are just under 200lines but could reach 200lines long if some features are added. I guess they don't deserve to be copyrighted(GPL)?"
<arossDOTme>
qi-bot: help
<zrafa>
wpwrak: another qi-bot2 to talk with qi-bot could help with statistics as well :)
<arossDOTme>
lol
<wpwrak>
zrafa: i'm sure DocScrutinizer would be more than happy to help with that ;-)
<wpwrak>
zrafa: in fact, i have infobot on ignore because of his monologues with the bot. hmm. just noticed that the bot is no longer around. good :)
<wpwrak>
arossDOTme: i'd say you don't need to reflash all the NAND if you just upgrade u-boot. i'd still make sure there's nothing overly valuable to be lost if something goes wrong, though.
<wpwrak>
(copyright) copyright applies even for ridiculously small items. if you don't specify a license, the default assumption is that no copying, modification, etc., is allowed.
<arossDOTme>
well i mean i would make it public domain
<arossDOTme>
its just on the fsf or gnu web they say 200lines
<arossDOTme>
one of goodies consists of 10 line .sh's and a big config file and very small config files.
<wpwrak>
oh, pick whatever license suits your intentions. it's your intentions that matter :)
<arossDOTme>
my thinking was one somthing small does it end up being like a patent in a way.
<arossDOTme>
?
<arossDOTme>
but then
<arossDOTme>
:/
<arossDOTme>
gpl then
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<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: we were talking about bots. and you like bots :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
:shrug:
<wpwrak>
arossDOTme: copyright != patent. and yes, there is plenty of evidence that even the most trivial things can be (and are) patented.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I like the database supporting my memory, since I'd not keep in mind each friggin URL and whatnot
<DocScrutinizer05>
not to mention typing it
<arossDOTme>
I know copyright != patent. I ment in a wield way but the "but then" line was me doubting/negativing that thought.
<DocScrutinizer05>
here's no infobot anymore, so the topic is moot
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/
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<arossDOTme>
on the website how do I add an project?
<DocScrutinizer05>
what a surprise, he meant qi website
<wpwrak>
aah ! :)
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: yeah, i suspected that it may be qi (though some projects in the qi universe also use github). but even there, it could be the wiki and not the projects server.
<DocScrutinizer05>
then your quote about those 620 million helped how?
<arossDOTme>
its fine
<DocScrutinizer05>
"github, wiki, or projects server" anyway would've been a shorter comment
<wpwrak>
the syntax rule for the "shortname" is "It must be unique for each project and composed only of letters, digits and dash (-) like "my-project"."
<arossDOTme>
oh great :D right then one name Decent CL Countdown (decentclcountdown) and Mplayer OSD Menu (mp-osd-menu)