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<xiangfu> (find a more precise fab) yes. totally agree. for fast, I just find random one in taobao. then they send back the PCBs in 3 days.
<xiangfu> (a U-shaped ground trace) yes. I also notice that after I sent out those gerber files.
<xiangfu> (one silo cap ) I ignore all those caps in first try. :-)
<xiangfu> the first try has totally messed. but I learn quiet some on KiCAD, gerber files, making PCB etc.
<xiangfu> the bad news is I never success with oven.
<xiangfu> I made a working board today with hot air.(2 times hot air)
<xiangfu> after burned 7 PCBs and 2 chips. :-)
<kyak> xiangfu: hi! i guess qt4 still didn't build on buildhost?
<xiangfu> kyak, checking...
<xiangfu> kyak, great. the qt4 stuff compile fine now.
<xiangfu> kyak, sorry for late reply. :) we have 17 qt4 package now.
<xiangfu> kyak, I think I will update the images and packages, just starting a continue build
<kyak> xiangfu: yeah, it makes sense to re-release the image, how do you think?
<xiangfu> yes. agree.
<xiangfu> building now.
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<wpwrak> xiangfu: (working board) wow, that's great. congratulations !
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<xiangfu> wpwrak, I can load configure bits file to that board. get some result from the firmware. :)
<qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu: qi_lb60: add ks7010 support (release_2012-10-11) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/3f62494
<qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu: qi_lb60: add ks7010 support (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/c3be281
<wpwrak> xiangfu: not a bad result at all. i thought it would take you a lot longer to get something that works. did you only use hot air or also heat from the bottom ?
<xiangfu> wpwrak, I heat the pcb and chip in oven for ~3 minutes. then use hot air on top.
<xiangfu> I set the hot air to ~350C.
<xiangfu> ~3 minutes hot air on top of chip.
<xiangfu> wpwrak, oven: no matter what high temperature I set, the TIN only get soft. it doesn't reflow at all,
<xiangfu> if I stick >220C for more then 2 mins. the PCB start burn. :)
<xiangfu> TIN: I mean the tin ball of the chip.
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<larsc> xiangfu: with flames and everything?
<xiangfu> larsc, the PCB starts to change color(black). and smoke come out.
<viric> what is a 'tin ball'?
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<larsc> xiangfu: nice toast ;)
<larsc> viric: the small dots on the back of the chip
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<viric> mh back is where text is, no?
<viric> or that is front?
<larsc> I'd call it front
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<viric> ah ok :)
<viric> you are not imaging chips as bugs then
<viric> you mean the balls on the belly of the chip ;)
<whitequark> xiangfu: uh oh
<whitequark> are you trying to use pb-free solder? :)
<xiangfu> whitequark, you mean the solder on the PCB?
<xiangfu> viric, yes. what is the correct name of those 'tin ball'? :)
<wpwrak> just "balls"
<wpwrak> and chips don't normally have "front" and "back" but "top" and "bottom"
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<whitequark> xiangfu: both on pcb and on the chip
<wpwrak> xiangfu: using the oven to pre-heat is an interesting variation
<viric> oh
<viric> I thought that 'tin' was a metal closer to iron
<xiangfu> whitequark, the chip is pb-free. the PCB I don't know. some random fab.
<viric> as in 'tin can'
<whitequark> pb-free solder seriously sucks if you don't have an oven with programmable profile
<viric> But then I looked at the dictionary for the english word of the solder soft metal, and I discovered it's tin :)
<whitequark> Í'd say that you can preheat the PCB at 170, or maybe 180 deg almost continuously
<whitequark> if you go higher, it'll fry sooner or later
<viric> whitequark: there comes into play the openPID?
<whitequark> so, I preheat it to 180 and then apply the heat gun on top
<whitequark> set to 320
<whitequark> for 20 seconds and no more
<whitequark> works very good on LQFP, but might not work so good on BGA
<wpwrak> viric: maybe you can recycle tin cans in a pinch. heat them on the stove until they melt, add lead to lower the melting point, stir well, voila, kitchen-made solder :)
<viric> you don't cook in that oven later, right?
<whitequark> viric: haha, indeed
<whitequark> heavy metals are quite poisonous
<viric> good :)
<whitequark> well I don't have one yet
<whitequark> didn't have much time lately.
<xiangfu> whitequark, thanks for share.
<whitequark> actually, I have yet to turn on my M1 for the first time :/
<xiangfu> whitequark, then I also have to use heat gun from now on.
<whitequark> xiangfu: probably. it takes some practice, but after twenty fried pcbs/chips or so I was able to do it correctly each time
<wpwrak> whitequark: why even bother with the oven for LQFP ? they're trivial with a soldering iron
<whitequark> wpwrak: naw, I used the heat gun from the bottom for preheating and top for actual soldering
<whitequark> for both desoldering and soldering
<xiangfu> whitequark, (it takes some practice). I already fired 7 pcbs and 2 chips. I still need 10 burn chips class. :-)
<whitequark> wpwrak: fine-pitch lqfps aren't easy
<wpwrak> ok, desoldering is a different story
<whitequark> .5 mm ones for example
<whitequark> I find it way easier to do this:
<whitequark> 1. cover each pad with an appropriate amount of tin with the iron and lots of RMA flux
<whitequark> relying on surface tension forces here
<whitequark> 2. more flux, place the chip correctly, apply heat gun and push it _very_ gently
<whitequark> 3. if the thingy doesn't work, probably due to not heating it enough, use _dry_ iron on every pin again.
<wpwrak> i wouldn't put a lot of tin on the pads. else you have to maintain heat for a long time to make sure all pins actually sink into the solder
<whitequark> wpwrak: you cannot actually place "a lot" of tin on pads
<wpwrak> well, in the Z direction :)
<whitequark> there's an amount it will absorb, and it will try very hard to get this exact amount
<whitequark> you obviously need to have soldering mask, and the pads should be quite small
<wpwrak> i keep my tin flat (microns). then lots of water soluble flux (less messy than RMA) and always a "wet" iron
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<whitequark> wpwrak: with wet iron, I tend to get a lot of solder bridges
<wpwrak> ah, don't have solder mask in my diy boards. that would make things too easy :)
<whitequark> which are incredibly hard to remove without ruining the pcb
<wpwrak> apply flux and "paint" over the pins, away from the chip. surface tension will take care of the bridges
* xiangfu will read logs tomorrow. have to sleep.
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<whitequark> as per solder mask, I find it comparable by cost to just purchase the pcbs at fab
<whitequark> when you include the cost of my time spent fixing everything which could be just avoided by having a mask, not drilling anything, not having to remake the PCBs, etc.
<wpwrak> ah yes, drilling is a pain
* wpwrak <3 his cnc mill ;)
<whitequark> drilling is a huge PITA, positioning can be hard, chemical processes are not health-friendly and not easy either
<whitequark> unless you're doing lots of simple boards and need really low cost and small turnaround time, I wouldn't really recommend the laser printer process
<wpwrak> for me it's the turnaround
<wpwrak> and yes, i try to keep them small
<whitequark> you could pay $30 for a moderately complex board and have it in 3 days here in Russia
<whitequark> with a russian fab
<whitequark> moderately complex = 2/4 layer, mask, drilling
<whitequark> under 10x10cm
<whitequark> well maybe $50. I mean, per batch of 10.
<wpwrak> so $50 for 10 boards or for each of that batch ?
<whitequark> for 10
<wpwrak> ok, those are good prices
<whitequark> hm, let me make sure I'm saying the correct price
<whitequark> well no, I was not entirely correct.
<whitequark> 2 layers, mask, silkscreen on both sides: $60 preparation, $12 per dm², 3 days.
<wpwrak> so $180 for the batch. and you have to wait :) but yes, if you actually need ten boards, it's more convenient. i tend to make two only identical boards at a time.
<wpwrak> then the next generation learns from my mistakes :)
<whitequark> +$10 delivery, or you could pick it up yourself
<whitequark> well yeah, there's a chinese fab which lets you have 10 boards less than 10x10cm for $25 total
<whitequark> plus delivery
<whitequark> if you use anything except airmail, it'll have comparable ETA and will be at least thrice cheaper
<whitequark> they have some other nice offers like 4 layer 5x5 for $65, or 10x10 for $100
<whitequark> which is very competitive to other fabs I've seen
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<LunaVorax> Hello!
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<qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Hide the 'params' option from the user on the contextual menu (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/0fc6ac6
<qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Use the '%f' token to insert the selected file on the params. (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/e7e21b4
<qi-bot> [commit] Paul Cercueil: Build file extensions filter from the MIME types present on the OPK (packages) http://qi-hw.com/p/gmenu2x/5f1cff6
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<pcercuei> Wayland 1.0 released