<wpwrak>
roh: in atben and atusb, there's an optional capacitor for antenna tuning that may or may not get equipped in the final product. for your boards, what would be your preference for having it equipped ? strong yes, strong no, or don't care ?
<larsc>
grml... this seems to be impossible
<wpwrak>
roh: the capacitor is 0402 and, if equipped, would be something around 0.5 pF
<larsc>
would probably be fast if i'd learn gcode and write the code for the board by hand
<wpwrak>
;-))
<larsc>
s/fast/faster
<wpwrak>
remember: each typo is equivalent to an a-few-percent-chance of a broken tool :)
<wpwrak>
aw: in atben and atusb, there's an optional capacitor for antenna tuning that may or may not get equipped in the final product (i still have to examine what works better)
<wpwrak>
aw: for your boards, what would be your preference for having it equipped ? strong yes, strong no, or don't care ?
<wpwrak>
aw: the capacitor is 0402 and, if equipped, would be something around 0.5 pF
<wpwrak>
aw: (my preference for your preference would be "don't care" ;-)
<aw>
wpwrak, what's the goal of 'optional' capacitor on functionality?
<wpwrak>
aw: it's for antenna tuning
<aw>
just for ant tuning?
<wpwrak>
aw: yup. it's between the RF feed line and ground
<aw>
wpwrak, hmm..eventually it may not be equipped? you hope? am i see clear difference on power performance measurement if it equipped but it's not?!
<wpwrak>
aw: i'm hoping that it may help getting rid of some little gremlins
<wpwrak>
aw: as you can see, there are a lot of little spikes at around 0.3 MHz from the center. would be nice to get rid of them.
<wpwrak>
aw: (click on the small images to magnify)
<aw>
okay, so those little spikes around 0.3Mhz is relevant to that 0402 optional capacitor? or not that meaning?
<aw>
if that optional capacitor is not equipped, which is that we can easily know the frequency domain shown is wrong!?
<wpwrak>
aw: i think the cap may remove them, yes. but this still needs some experimenting
<wpwrak>
aw: my question is about the prototypes i'm about to send out. i don't want to delay them for this. i think i can examine the problem while the other boards are on their way
<aw>
hm...sounds that you had have ideas on distinguishing what evidence will be shown when 'optional' capactot is missed. good.
<wpwrak>
aw: (if not equipped) i don't even know if you notice those spikes in the overall performance
<wpwrak>
aw: for now, i'll collect all the data i can get with the existing boards, then decide who gets which board, send yours (via fedex) and roh's (by regular mail), wait until roh's clear customs, then send richard's (also by regular mail)
<wpwrak>
aw: ideally, yours and roh's would go out tomorrow, so that they can travel during the weekend. i hope customs don't delay this.
<aw>
wpwrak, okay..please may just declare them as 'development samples' or 'kits' or so...no 'RF' words or so.
<wpwrak>
aw: and not "Microwave RF transmitter with AES encryption" ;-))
<wpwrak>
or they'd think it's military equipment ;-)
<aw>
wpwrak, i think that you may not mention those words on description column, just like 'engineering samples' or 'development samples'. not need our internal model name now. ;-)
<aw>
i did always do that way. no even formal 'model name' mentioned...;-)
<aw>
wpwrak, yeah.
<wpwrak>
they always ask for a "detailed description". i had been haggling with TNT endlessly when sending those counterweights to tuxbrain. they were not happy with just "counterweight (metal)"
<aw>
wpwrak, umm...well-controlled in your country. well..do that you generally did before, just no 'RF'-related words...;-)
<wpwrak>
so i'd include the model name to make it look very "detailed". if they google for it, they'll only get confused, so it doesn't tell them much :)
<wpwrak>
aw: no RF, no microwave, no encryption, not "PCB" (Polychlorinated biphenyl) ;-)
<aw>
wpwrak, okay. right exactly. good.
<wpwrak>
harmonized system codes 847330 and 854442
<aw>
u need to prepare that whenever you send out from your country?
<wpwrak>
aw: i think someone has to - e.g., i or the courier
<aw>
via fedex, you need to prepare/determine them by yourself?
<wpwrak>
aw: and it's easier for me to look up the code than for be to explain them what exactly it is :)
<aw>
probably their computer system will always do such things internally. ;-)
<aw>
wpwrak, okay.
<wpwrak>
aw: well, after my experience with TNT, i'm a bit cautious. they asked for a description, i sent it by mail, they asked me again when i scheduled the pickup, i put everything into the documents as well, then it was picked up but stuck at customs. then i called them, had to explain a third time, then they asked for me to send them an updated formal invoice with slightly changed wording, until they finally processed it.
<wpwrak>
aw: then, when it reached spain, it was held in customs too, apparently because there was more confusion about the content.
<wpwrak>
aw: i never had such troubles with fedex, but i think it can't hurt to help make things go smoothly
<aw>
wpwrak, for the same goods in different countries import and export control practices vary. okay if you think that'll be smooth expectedly.
<xiangfu>
wpwrak: when I run aclocal;automake;./configure --prefix=/ --host=mipsel-openwrt-linux;make, the avrdude stop at "config.status: creating avrdude.conf.tmp". the make output: http://pastebin.com/BGK4FePN
<wpwrak>
aw: i think fedex are more enlightnened than others, but still ...
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: yeah, something is wrong there. you need to run  make </dev/null  then run configure again
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: oh wait. maybe that's something noew. on openwrt, i didn't have that problem
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: maybe just try the make </dev/null and configure, just like on jlime
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: the symptoms look the same and i don't know why it worked for me without this hack on openwrt (or why it didn't work without it on jlime :)
<wpwrak>
roh: i'll also need your shipping address. hope regular mail is okay.
<aw>
wpwrak, agreed. ;-) enlightnened means needing more processes. well..thanks that gift.
<xiangfu>
wpwrak: try to add </dev/null to make. testing
<wpwrak>
aw: (declarations) one problem is also that these things change from time to time. so if you could just write "gift" some years ago, they may now want a lot more details. perhaps also to check against the various lists of prohibited items (like terror-toner :)
<kristianpaul>
checks sal
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: i think the fft or some of the data acquisition is broken. i did some fft on samples obtained by another means (for the same kind of signal), and the results look much better.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: so this still need investigating ... at some point in time :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: I dont seen a function related with coomand line arguments, how do you loaded the the "other means samples", ah you mean still using usrp2 for that i guess
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: yes, it;s all usrp2. also, sal has a number of things hard-coded (such as the center frequency), because i haven't figured out yet how to change it after initializing the ustp2
<kristianpaul>
sure
<kristianpaul>
still nice if it if works for your requirements :-)
<wolfspraul_>
xiangfu: I had this idea that if we reorganize the partition layout again one day, we may want to leave a separate 128 mb partition as well. the reason is that I'm thinking about encrypting partitions.
<wolfspraul_>
so there are 3 options:
<wolfspraul_>
1) the user doesn't care about encryption - everything stays like it is now
<wolfspraul_>
2) the user wants to encrypt everything, including rootfs, and doesn't mind enterning a password on every bootup
<wolfspraul_>
3) the user doesn't want to enter a password for every bootup, but wants to have an encrypted partition for certain files, and enter a password upon mounting that partition
<wolfspraul_>
for case #3, it would be a good idea to leave something like a 128 MB partition around...
<wolfspraul_>
just thinking, and see what people feel about it
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul_: you could also just loop-mount a container file
<wolfspraul_>
good point, maybe even better. don't know what is most easily implemented, I don't know much about encrypted file systems, partition, loop mounted blobs, etc.
<wolfspraul_>
I need to experiment with encryption a bit on my notebook, then I know better :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul_: man losetup :) it's ancient
<wolfspraul_>
oh that I know
<wolfspraul_>
but how people actually, practically, encrypt partitions/filesystems I don't know
<wolfspraul_>
do you use encrypted filesystems?
<wpwrak>
no, i'm too lazy to worry much about such things
<wolfspraul_>
ok but I think for the Ben we should make it very easy to go secure
<wolfspraul_>
the details of which would probably need some thinking
<wpwrak>
easy+secure is a good combination
<kristianpaul>
(encrypting partitions) wee !
<kristianpaul>
(loop-mount a container file) i thinks thats one openbsd handle ecryption..
<kristianpaul>
encrypt a whole system, requires work as wpwrak points, but a file, why not?
<wolfspraul_>
kristianpaul: seems like you also haven't used encrypted filesystems before. we need to find someone who has done it for a while and can give us some good guidance on how to start.
<wolfspraul_>
or if we don't find someone, we need to try ourselves, and see what works well
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul_: I did
<wolfspraul_>
loop mounted fs sounds better than separate partition to me, so that's definitely good already
<wolfspraul_>
kristianpaul: great! how did you do it?
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul_: but was too much work to maintain.
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul_: using debian
<kristianpaul>
installer
<wolfspraul_>
you entered a password to access the partition? was it a partition or loop mounted something?
<wolfspraul_>
why was it too much work to maintain?
<kristianpaul>
llvm  + some crypto-something
<wolfspraul_>
how did you access the encrypted storage?
<kristianpaul>
yeah password when booting
<kristianpaul>
once that all transparent
<wolfspraul_>
so every time you booted you had to enter the password
<kristianpaul>
yeap
<wolfspraul_>
how about coming up from suspend?
<kristianpaul>
hmm i never use suspend..
<kristianpaul>
much work because something my computer restart, but i'm not at home..
<kristianpaul>
second i break my debian from time to time, so re-install take long
<wolfspraul_>
it was a computer you left somewhere?
<kristianpaul>
as the "formating" take some hours
<wolfspraul_>
with a mobile device you always carry with you, the need to enter a password should be less of an annoyance
<wolfspraul_>
of course it should be easy to turn this off if someone wants to remote operate a nn
<kristianpaul>
no, computer is at home, but i'm not there all time in the week
<kristianpaul>
I did with a file onces, i experimented with openbsd
<kristianpaul>
also i think you need enable "crypto " suppor in linux
<kristianpaul>
rafa told me once, i asked this topic to him time ago for jlime
<kristianpaul>
s/got/get
<kristianpaul>
s/llvm/lvm
<xiangfu>
I have no idea on encryption partition. never use that before :(
<wolfspraul_>
we can find out slowly. it does make sense for a device like the Ben though, and it should be very easy to setup and use, or even come with a good default installation.
<wolfspraul_>
I will experiment on my notebook a little, see how that goes.
<kristianpaul>
whole re-install?
<kristianpaul>
:D
<kristianpaul>
reads a pdf on his milkymist
<kristianpaul>
he, feels a bit slows when moving to next page tought..
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: the pictures blew him away ;-)
<wolfspraul>
no just my 2nd identity
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: ah, sneaky ;-)
<tuxbrain_away>
so you achived my desired cloning machine! :p
<wolfspraul>
wow yes, nice!
<wolfspraul>
02 looks like world domination
<tuxbrain_away>
hehehehe yeah I have chose it for the blog post :)
<wolfspraul>
welcome to the world of hardware manufacturers!
<wolfspraul>
of course now you have to sell all that stuff...
<tuxbrain_away>
50% already sold :)
<wolfspraul>
nice
<xMff>
I've a feature request
<xMff>
I was surprised that the official images have the ks7010 driver already included, thats nice
<xMff>
but can you disable its debugging?
<xMff>
it is spamming the terminal and actually has quite some performance impact
<wolfspraul>
he
<wolfspraul>
lars committed something along these lines just a few days ago
<xMff>
I see
<xMff>
some kind of network manager would be nice :)
<xMff>
but I suppose wpa_gui could be already enough, have to give that a try
<wolfspraul>
what gui toolkit is wpa_gui using?
<xMff>
gtk
<wolfspraul>
and 320x240 is enough screen space for it?
<xMff>
that is another question :)
<xMff>
I think its not
<xMff>
at least the settings screen can get quite big
<xMff>
the scanlist and statusview probably would fit
<kyak>
xMff: does WPA2 work fine for you with ks7010?
<xMff>
kyak: I didn't test recently
<kyak>
ok..
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: ah, pricing. what would be a common factor between BOM cost and final price for boards with BOM costs in the USD 5-10 range ? (qty 100)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i.e., atben/atusb
<wolfspraul>
normally you do times 3
<wpwrak>
(final = end customer)
<wpwrak>
good. i had guessed 300-400% :)
<wolfspraul>
times 3, where 1/3rd is the distributor/reseller, 1/3rd the manufacturer, 1/3rd the components/pcb/smt/assembly
<wolfspraul>
that's just the ballpark, with our extremely low volumes everything is different, but of course we cannot offer boards for 200 USD...
<wpwrak>
okay, so more like 400% from the raw BOM cost. (well, PCB isn't in there either)
<wolfspraul>
(with a bom of 10 usd)
<wolfspraul>
sure, there are details, such as whether you have a difficult assembly/testing or not, and what the (known) yield is
<wolfspraul>
sometimes a manufacturer knowingly produces something with difficult testing, 60% yield, etc.
<wolfspraul>
but then he better have a margin to survive through this chaos
<wolfspraul>
the end customer won't care, they just want a functioning product
<wpwrak>
heh ;-) let's hope we don't run into such yields
<wpwrak>
atben looks pretty good for DIY yield. atusb is a bit of a slaughterhouse, but that's a) because it has large ground planes which make manual soldering and particular the vias hellish, and b) i have some issues with the tin chemistry, which make them even harder to solder.
<wpwrak>
lemme update the results to illustrate this ...
<wpwrak>
at the end, atben-20110219-* are the five final atben boards
<xMff>
kyak: do you havei ssues with it?
<kyak>
xMff: yeah, had some issues.. In fact, i was only able to make WEP work. The some time later it didn't work at all :)
<xMff>
no, afaik it definitely worked with wpa
<xMff>
you need to configure the supplicant though
<kyak>
sure
<wpwrak>
at the top, atusb-4 through -7 are three of the five final atusb boards. the other two don't want to enumerate at the moment. maybe they need just reflashing.
<kyak>
anyway, i didn't have luck at that time -\
<kyak>
(and now i don't have the card, it's mechnically broken)
<xMff>
ouch
<xMff>
expensive piece of hw to break
<kyak>
yes, pretty interesting how expensive and shitty can be combined together :)
<wolfspraul>
wow that's a chart (werner's antenna performance thing)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: kinda tricky to fit it all on a screen and still keep it readable :)
<wpwrak>
the 8:10 card receptacle really want changing in a future nanonote ... just tried with a few more atusb-pgm. brrgh.
<wpwrak>
M_Rojas: i need a reality check: are there any holidays in the next days ? on the radio, they mentioned a "long weekend", but i can't seem to find any "official" holidays
<mth>
wpwrak: here in .nl we have carnaval, which is always 6 weeks before easter
<mth>
it's not an official holiday here though
<mth>
but a lot of people take days off
<wpwrak>
mth: yeah, i see carnival listed as unofficial here as well. but what's coming is an official holiday. probably one of the populist holidays decreed late last year, so it's not in any printed calender yet.
<qi-bot>
[commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: Don't make any assumptions about which timers are used as sytem timers http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/d9ee7e9
<qi-bot>
[commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: Add support for more then one irq bank and move initialization into sub-archs. http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/7437e22