<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: can you reveal the type of 3d printer ? makerbot-ish ? or more like the 10k+ USD desktop thingies ?
<kristianpaul>
reprap-ish..
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: yeah, that's a better word
<kristianpaul>
like the one from bits from bytes?
<Jay7>
btw, what is relation between reprap and markerbot?
<Jay7>
(if any)
<kristianpaul>
dunno..
<kristianpaul>
well once i time same electronics,but that changed
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: kristianpaul , when time come information will be revealed, but it will not be a 10k+ for sure :)
<wpwrak>
hopefully cheaper yet better then :)
<kristianpaul>
cheap, i hope too
<kristianpaul>
also wich can mills pcb as wpwrak do
<kristianpaul>
and do smt later? ;-)
<Jay7>
hehe.. soldering machine :)
<kristianpaul>
ha, you should see the ones just for reflow
<wpwrak>
< USD 100, prints all kinds of materials including plastics and metals, with color, can print over any cavities, resolution 10 um or better, blindingly fast, very compact, maximum workpiece size something like 50x50x30 cm, yeah, that would be about the specs :)
<kristianpaul>
from what dream that came?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (smt) hey, just extrude 20 nm structures :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: i wonder if you could get them interested in making a ben case, as a proof of concept project
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: mmm interesting , I will propose :)
<kristianpaul>
and they will kill you
<kristianpaul>
at leasy you have a good proposal for support material  :-)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: if they still do it afterwards, it will be a fine sacrifice :)
<kristianpaul>
anyway..
<kristianpaul>
keep us posted
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: the absence of suitable case-making experience is still a big obstacles on the path to a potential ya
<tuxbrain_away>
why? I'm a lovely guy with shreck's cat on boots eyes
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: and i think it would be best to develop and test these skills with a known device, namely the ben
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: the files you have will be suitable to do so?
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: That case you be made, by some one with cad skills, and please  parametric ones too
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: a case for the ben boards yes, a similar design for current one, not a cheap copy
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: for making a case ? no, not really. you need to make a proper design first. but you can use them a inputs, to speed up the process
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (parametic) oh, totally. anything else would feel prehistoric
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: you already scaned all boards isnt?
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: ok I will aks them , they are not good at electronics (they had asked me for help so judge your self :P) but seem quite pro on mechanical desing let's see I have a meeting with them next week,
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain_away: ()mechanical desing) show then the ben boards, please !!
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: no, i still need to make a few more scans. i had suspended them because i needed the mill for other stuff, and if i can't dedicate to scanning for at least a week at a time, it doesn't make much sense to even try
<kristianpaul>
we need a case with no screws easy to put.. can be ugly at first and shaped later
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: yeah, slow scan is pain..
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: and now i also have the problem that the pc with the scanning software (proprietary junk running on windows in a virtualbox) died, so i need to rebuild that setup, too
<kristianpaul>
hmm..
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (tried wine, but no luck)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (ME skills) that's exactly what's missing on our end :)
<tuxbrain_away>
kristianpaul: I dont understand you about the case can you elaborate?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (no scews) oh, i would use screws. they're much easier to handle than making snap-in parts
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain_away: we have two boards, main one and lcm for ben nanonote
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak:(screws) i gues should be betters ways.. i hope
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain_away: lets imagine no case
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: with snap-on, you also get material dependencies, dynamic behaviour, aging, and so on. that's a lot harder
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain_away: so this guys as are related with mechanical part, sureally arelady have some know how about a case design based on the boards
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (snap) and of course, you also get undercuts. just a big mess. no, i love my screws :)
<tuxbrain_away>
kristianpaul: (no case) ok that's easy , imaginated
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain_away: no matter if what they try is ugly or teo speare parts, but make boads fit is hard part
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: ok, screws :-)
<Jay7>
just print case around board! :)
<wpwrak>
takes out the silicone "gun"
<kristianpaul>
noo
<tuxbrain_away>
can also make a blob of hot glue too :P
<kristianpaul>
nooo
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: i wouldn't even worry about longevity. make the case cheap to build, then you can just throw it away when the threads of the holes you screw into fail
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain_away: go and finish your printer :-)
<tuxbrain_away>
ok ok now yes good n8 guys
<kristianpaul>
n8
<wpwrak>
now, lemme try to figure out the logic of wolfgang's kicad patch. then i can add the exclude-pcb-edge option, and finally make the pcb fab files with a script
<wolfspraul>
oops
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: almost done :)
<wolfspraul>
eh :-) I just started, quite embarassing.
<wolfspraul>
I look into the color thing too then.
<wolfspraul>
if ( parser.Found( wxT("exclude-pcb-edge") ) ) frame->Exclude_Edges_Pcb = true;
<wolfspraul>
something like this should do it, testing...
<wpwrak>
ah, maybe you'll still beat me to it :)
<wpwrak>
i tried the global setting. but that didn't work. thinking of it, i set it to "false" ...
<wolfspraul>
sorry g_pcb_plot_options.
<wolfspraul>
oh that didn't work?
<wolfspraul>
let me do this now, no worries
<wolfspraul>
give me 1h, then you can complain again :-) (sorry I have been so slow on this)
<wolfspraul>
did you try to set g_pcb_plot_options.Exclude_Edges_Pcb = true; ?
<wpwrak>
that's what i'm trying now
<wolfspraul>
without even reading the implementation, I would hope that's the right variable
<wolfspraul>
I'll fix the eeschema color problem too
<wolfspraul>
Engineering files to SMT manufacturer
<wolfspraul>
BoM/AI/panel gerber/placement top/placement bottom/parts polarity top/released parts' qty information/page 58 of Soldering reflow profile in FT2232HQ
<wolfspraul>
that second wiki page is good, it should have the information you are looking for
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: done, sent info for quoute
<kristianpaul>
160usd for 10PCB still expensive i think
<kristianpaul>
well they tought the pcb was squared..
<wpwrak>
(kicad ai) ah, nice, thanks. that's already one item i didn't know.
<kristianpaul>
let see how they react witht L like explanation about the pcb
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (10 pcb) you may want to ask for larger quantities as well. very often, 100 is basically the same price as 10.
<kristianpaul>
i dont money for 100
<kristianpaul>
10 is on my limit..
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: in the case of UBB, even 100 would have been a bad choice. 500 was only something like 10% more expensive
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: money for 100 may be only very very little more than money for 10 :)
<kristianpaul>
hmm, i dont think so..
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: the ubb cost structure for 100 or 500 units was something like EUR 405 + units * EUR 0.17, if i remember this correctly
<kristianpaul>
not here but i can try
<kristianpaul>
ask dont hurt
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: it depends on the fab. some have almost linear prices, others have a big setup fee and then a low per unit price
<wolfspraul>
it's a pure factor of labor cost
<wolfspraul>
one-time fees in the US are a few times higher than one-time fees in Taiwan, where they are still about double the one-time fees in China
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: e.g., the quite ron got was from a place with a lower fixed cost but high per unit price. that's why the 500 unit cost would have been insane
<wpwrak>
s/quite/quote/
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: some places also bundle (small) orders, so they can spread out the setup cost
<wolfspraul>
actually if a place like Colombia would get their act together, they could beat China
<wolfspraul>
but that's more of a social problem than a technical one
<kristianpaul>
yeah..
<wolfspraul>
in China people who earn 5 USD per day come to work nicely every day, don't steal, are not drunk or violent, etc.
<wolfspraul>
of course the Chinese society holds draconian measures in place for those that think they have something to complain about a 5 usd / day lifestyle
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (2nd link) oh, great. exactly what i was looking for. thanks !
<wolfspraul>
while in Colombia, even though many people survive on 2-3 USD / day, well, the truth is they are violent, steal a lot, etc. no fun running a factory with them.
<wolfspraul>
so it's still back to China, I guess...
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<kristianpaul>
china will build a small town at the north of the cuntry, thats tne romuor.. oh well
<wolfspraul>
definitely imaginable
<wolfspraul>
they are doing this in a lot of countries
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: regarding smt, if you want to make a small number if atben, then you may want to consider manual soldering
<wolfspraul>
but watch out, it will be CHinese culture there
<wolfspraul>
there will be gates, with Chinese guards asking for ID, etc. Colombian police will not go in.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: atben isn't too hard to solder, both from the component count and the general difficulty
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: i'lldo manual, soldering
<kristianpaul>
smt will blowout my pocket..
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: good, then you're on the right track already :)
<wolfspraul>
it's already happening massively in south-east asia (say cambodia), where Chinese companies buy huge areas of land, invest billions of USD, and create something like a 'colony'
<wpwrak>
atusb is harder. about twice the number of components, and larger ground areas, so heat loss becomes more of a problem. it's still doable, though.
<wolfspraul>
airport, beach resort, vacation homes, etc.
<wolfspraul>
Cambodian police will not go into those areas.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: so what do they look for there ? just nice beaches ?
<wolfspraul>
there are many projects, I guess it differs
<wolfspraul>
sometimes precious resources, sometimes vacation investments, etc.
<wolfspraul>
but the size is so big, it looks like they buy a chunk of that country, of course
<wolfspraul>
what can a country like Cambodia say or do about it?
<wolfspraul>
they will just be sidelined
<wolfspraul>
the Chinese are coming with billions of USD, high-tech, thousands of workers, etc. etc.
<wolfspraul>
and with a huge industrial hinterland (China), that can supply anything they need
<wpwrak>
interesting approach to colonialization
<wolfspraul>
first time I hear from kristianpaul that this is also planned in Colombia, but I'm not surprised
<wolfspraul>
it's just a little further away :-)
<wolfspraul>
they don't see it like that. just an investment.
<wolfspraul>
of course they think the locals are poor and lazy.
<wolfspraul>
work only 5 days a week, etc.
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wolfspraul>
so China brings civilization
<kristianpaul>
work 4 days a week
<kristianpaul>
btw
<wolfspraul>
well, exactly. :-)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul is being civilized by a project from china-based sharism, so that he can work the remaining days of the week, too ;-)
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
in Cambodia they are doing 99 year leases
<wolfspraul>
just like Hong Kong, so funny
<wolfspraul>
where the China propaganda machine cannot stop complaining about that
<wolfspraul>
they do exactly the same
<wolfspraul>
let's see whether they return properly in 99 years, as the British did
<wolfspraul>
well, we won't see, I guess.
<wolfspraul>
I would have big doubts though.
<wpwrak>
by then, they'll have assimilated the rest of the country anyway ;-)
<wolfspraul>
the last chunk they cut out of Cambodia was about 1/3rd the size of Hong Kong, several times the size of Macau.
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: let's build copyleft hardware in the non-China part of Colombia, eh? we don't need to go to that new city :-)
<kristianpaul>
actually i hope all still as rumour
<kristianpaul>
and i live in the south
<wolfspraul>
nah, makes perfect sense.
<wolfspraul>
this is happening everywhere, Chinese companies are looking for investments everywhere
<kristianpaul>
away from such us dangers ;-)
<wolfspraul>
and they will protect their investments
<wpwrak>
i wonder if the "buy chunks of a country" approach is better or worse than the "just buy the politicans" approach of the west
<wpwrak>
in the end, it may all end up in the same pockets, of course
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: I'm hapy in where i live, so no need to move, well just for working to the capital, but thats 4 days no more
<wolfspraul>
we're just kidding, no worries.
<kristianpaul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
Chinese culture is horribly unattractive to anyone who has seen life outside.
<wolfspraul>
so that whole process will come to a halt because the Chinese themselves will realize life is about more than piling up money.
<wpwrak>
btw, there's one footprint in atben/atusb i'm not so sure about yet. that's the balun. i used the recommended land pattern, but it barely reaches the bottom of the contacts. you have plenty of room on the side, though.
<wolfspraul>
with 'Chinese culture' I mean the special characteristics as implemented by the so called communists right now. That nonsense will stop sooner or later :-)
<wpwrak>
so this may not be very smt-friendly. for manual soldering, you don't have much of a problem, though
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: what are you trying to manufacture?
<wolfspraul>
more ubbs?
<kristianpaul>
nooo
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<kristianpaul>
atben
<wolfspraul>
oh
<wpwrak>
i like what's happening - when wolfgang doesn't move quickly enough, others do ;-)
<kristianpaul>
first PCB if all went okay, order from digikey
<kristianpaul>
and DIY SMT
<wpwrak>
which is of course precisely what open design hw should enable to happen
<wpwrak>
so the plan works :)
<kristianpaul>
He the plan include sell some board to university
<wolfspraul>
awesome!
<kristianpaul>
local university**
<kristianpaul>
but let see
<kristianpaul>
i go slow, as money allow :-)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: even better if it actually generates revenue :)
<kristianpaul>
;-)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: there are bens sold to ecuador or venezuela?
<kristianpaul>
i dont found in wiki, but asking just in case
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: in eeschema_scripted.cpp, there is a line g_DrawBgColor = BLACK; Can you try commenting that out?
<wolfspraul>
I did and it seems the .ps output is still good.
<wolfspraul>
removing that line should keep the background color untouched (I guess the variable is persisted some time during app exit)
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: there only were 1 or 2 fraudulent orders from those countries :-)
<wolfspraul>
(no deliveries)
<wolfspraul>
like I said, the Chinese will come and bring some civilization. You just wait :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (black) let's see ...
<kristianpaul>
ah, shame
<wolfspraul>
from the little I learnt when I was there, I'd say Colombia is by far the one with the most potential, and most fertile breeding ground.
<wolfspraul>
if it doesn't work in Colombia, for sure it won't work in Venezuela or Ecuador.
<wolfspraul>
of course there can be pioneers everywhere...
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (pcbnew and black) looks good
<wolfspraul>
eeschema
<wpwrak>
oh ;-)
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: you can try contacting Carlos, why not? :-)
<wpwrak>
i was wondering why pcbnew :)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: Carlos? what for?ah, you mean atben? sure i will
<wolfspraul>
wait - it fixed your problem or not?
<wolfspraul>
I saw the color issue in eeschema. is there another one in pcbnew?
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: yes, for atben.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: pcbnew already defaults to black. not sure if there would be one if you changed that
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: eeschema looks good. the color bug is gone
<wolfspraul>
ok great. I really apologize that I was so crazy slow on this.
<wolfspraul>
5 lines for exclude-edges, 1 line for eeschema color.
<wolfspraul>
that should have been done in an hour weeks ago, oh well..
<wpwrak>
yeah, it was a little odd ;)
<wpwrak>
i don't even see a way to change the bg color in pcbnew. so the setting to black is probably harmless. (doesn't seem to accomplish anything either, though)
<wolfspraul>
the worst is that I got really good feedback on the kicad list but haven't done anything since
<wolfspraul>
need to speedup...
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: is drc also avaliable by command line btw?
<wolfspraul>
yes
<kristianpaul>
food :-)
<kristianpaul>
good**
<wolfspraul>
and the plan was to automate that on the server too, another nice todo item.
<wolfspraul>
in fact the jtag-serial high-speed bug showed that that is a good idea :-)
<wpwrak>
auto-drc may benefit from a filtering mechanism, too. e.g., atben/atusb don't pass DRC, because of the antenna
<wpwrak>
and ERC has even more false positives
<kristianpaul>
okay, but you can override the atena warnings, isnt?
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak: are smt files already in the tar.gz/files you send?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: no, not yet
<tuxbrain_away>
wpwrak:Â Â ok I will wait until you send this to me.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: also note that the pcb files may still change a little. namely, with a size change of one footprint
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: will the place that did the pcbs also do the smt ?
<wolfspraul>
curious about that one. I'd say it's very unlikely. for some reason pcb factories and smt factories always seem separate.
<wolfspraul>
unless you take the giants like foxconn, who have everything somewhere (still separate subsidiaries, of course)
<wolfspraul>
maybe it's the skillset? maybe the lack of overlap in capital expenditure? don't know...
<wolfspraul>
some pcb makers will offer you to take care of smt though, by involving a partner company
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: new patch set works like a charm. thanks !
<wpwrak>
(different companies) maybe because there's very little overlap in the actual activities
<wpwrak>
also, pcbs are easier to ship around than component stock.
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atben/Makefile (gen): corrected use of --plot (for style - not really used) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/7ef1c09
<wolfspraul>
yes, the shippability may also be a factor
<wolfspraul>
pcb is often remote, smt rarely/never
<wolfspraul>
but let's see what tuxbrain says, I'm very curious about the answer.
<wpwrak>
do many smt houses offer to buy/stock components for you ?
<wolfspraul>
always like to understand what kind of services are clustered where and how, because we need to know the reasons in order to make best use of them
<wolfspraul>
only very basic parts, like smd passive components
<wpwrak>
yeah. just "it's all easier in china" may not always be true
<wolfspraul>
anything unique/special to your product you need to hand in
<wolfspraul>
oh of course not. people who say 'it's all easier in china' just document how little they know about China.
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
but it's sooo cheap :)
<wolfspraul>
yeah. especially if it's crap, or doesn't work.
<wolfspraul>
Chinese themselves know very well, that's why the streets are full of (real) Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, etc.
<wpwrak>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
and the occasional Ferrari and Lamborghini, I may add
<wpwrak>
i think the realization that not all is gold in china also reached western firms by now, but it certainly took them long enough
<wpwrak>
and the less scrupulous merchants still make a good buck on defunct junk
<wolfspraul>
yes but I think many buyers get what they deserve.
<wolfspraul>
my sympathy is with the Chinese there.
<wpwrak>
mine is also with the end customers, who don't even get a choice
<wolfspraul>
fair enough. in a perfect world nobody would touch knowingly broken/defective stuff.
<wpwrak>
but yes, the chinese are doing everything right. the fools demand, they supply
<wolfspraul>
yes. isn't it amazing that some people want consumer electronics where the smt and pcb fabrication is staffed by totally clueless 17 year old kids, who have fun playing with the many buttons?
<wolfspraul>
at least the western consumers finance a big 'learning by doing' program that way
<wolfspraul>
I try to see the positive side. the kids are having fun, and underage is watched. so be it then...
<wolfspraul>
some of them are really laughing at the defunct crap they are producing, there are a lot of funny youtube videos and blog posts along these lines.
<wolfspraul>
what can they do, eventually they will figure out how this all works, then they are ready for the next better company...
<wolfspraul>
one thing I find interesting. this china thing has made many western companies not know anymore what they are producing, even why I think.
<wpwrak>
well, as long as they're having fun :)
<wpwrak>
and most customers probably don't understand just how things could go wrong anyway. they just see things that inexplicably fail.
<wolfspraul>
well but the drive towards cheap means they are changing things faster than the software side, even marketing side, can catch up to
<wolfspraul>
so it all becomes a very automated industry. good thing we have apple, who act like a global loudspeaker.
<wolfspraul>
so when apple comes out with something new, everybody else of the brain-disconnected companies suddenly knows what the next big thing is they are supposed to do.
<wpwrak>
apple is still a very high-margin company. quite different from the bottom feeders that flood the market with junk
<wolfspraul>
even though by themselves, they have no communication channels anymore to get any complex thought communicated
<wpwrak>
oh, yes. the herd effect is amazing
<wolfspraul>
yes but that's my point. there are no more communication channels :-)
<wpwrak>
who needs cartels if you have steve jobs ? :)
<wolfspraul>
the people that would understand have been cut (too expensive)
<wolfspraul>
so it's all in auto-pilot mode
<wolfspraul>
you cannot communicate any complex new idea down the supply chain
<wolfspraul>
where 'complex' can be brutally simple actually, given where things stand nowadays
<wolfspraul>
so if you want to work with suppliers that have not cut such people, it's immediately more expensive (china or otherwise).
<wpwrak>
of course
<wpwrak>
so the question is how long the bottom feeders really can compete
<wolfspraul>
a software engineer working for a foreign company in Shanghai will now make 2500 USD or more
<wpwrak>
both in terms of demand (which may exist forever) but also in terms of denying their betters access to the market
<wolfspraul>
that's his (more or less) net salary, so for the company it's at least 4000 USD
<wolfspraul>
these are normal rates for (good) graduate students (say guys that can really do engineering)
<wpwrak>
doesn't sound too bad
<wolfspraul>
you just need to do a little math to understand that many low marging hardware suppliers have no room for such people
<wolfspraul>
no room = no money
<wolfspraul>
so how do they keep their factory running? :-)
<wolfspraul>
magic?
<wolfspraul>
he he
<wolfspraul>
I know how :-)
<wpwrak>
excuses ? ;-)
<wolfspraul>
nah
<wolfspraul>
hire someone for 800 USD / month, or less
<wolfspraul>
and then close your eyes, and close them hard
<wpwrak>
excuses :)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: with 'access to market' you mean access to China market?
<wolfspraul>
access to China market depends a lot on each industry, it's tightly regulated. for consumer electronics, there are no problems getting in, _IF_ you pay the high import taxes (and consequently the Chinese consumers are willing to pay them as well)
<wolfspraul>
you know the whole business of the 'export zones', and how expensive it is to get a product from an export zone into China proper
<wolfspraul>
but other than high taxes, the market (in consumer electronics) is very open and very competitive
<wolfspraul>
I recently bought a Samsung video projector, 'made in china'. The price at amazon.com would have been about 2800 RMB (4xx USD), I paid 4400 RMB in China (that was a good price after searching).
<wolfspraul>
that's a 57% markup!
<wpwrak>
(market access) more the international market. china market is tricky
<wolfspraul>
but foreign brands are still selling very well in China
<wolfspraul>
the Chinese government is making the most of this product, for sure
<wpwrak>
(market access) e.g., better quality products being replaced by cheap ones, thus the more expensive but good companies dying
<wolfspraul>
not sure where this is happening. if 'better quality' is actually meaningful, it won't be replaced.
<wpwrak>
(57% markup) in argentina, we get 100% or more for consumer electronics ...
<wolfspraul>
not all 'better quality' is actually better though, and the Chinese are trying hard every day to find that additional little thing that you can leave out without hurting functionality.
<wolfspraul>
sometimes they go too far in that search, but luckily there are consumers ready to finance this activity :-)
<wolfspraul>
that's how I see it. You cannot scale broken. definitely not.
<wolfspraul>
broken is an anomaly, though if you can find consumers that help you mitigate the costs of broken, then why not...
<wpwrak>
(better quality) oh, when you can buy a screwdriver that will crack under high load or corrode quickly for price X or one that will last much longer for price 2 X, it may be difficult for the average customer to decide on buying the latter
<wpwrak>
thus the better company loses the non-expert customers
<wolfspraul>
maybe many people buy screwdrivers they never use, or only once a year
<wolfspraul>
my bottom line is: I don't think 'China' as a phenomenom is in any way a prerequisite for successful copyleft hardware.
<wolfspraul>
it's just a country, like many others
<wolfspraul>
it's not true that 'things' are cheaper in China
<wpwrak>
that too. but of course, with the market getting flooded by the cheap ones, it also gets hard on the buyer side to get anything better
<wolfspraul>
once we have stabilized our knowledge platform, we may even be able to be cheaper outside of China. the overhead in China is still bad, and not getting better.
<wpwrak>
they probably are, where a lot of unskilled labour is enough
<wpwrak>
yup. we're far from unskilled labour
<wpwrak>
what we find boring, we automate :)
<panda|x201>
wolfspraul, ping :-)
<wolfspraul>
panda|x201: yes, still here.
<kristianpaul>
wifispy dont look that bad at all
<kristianpaul>
the price it is..
<roh>
well.. its not a measuring tool. rather a 'estimation meter'
<kristianpaul>
yeah..
<rozzin>
Anyone interested hacking on a NanoNote music-player project?
<rozzin>
I think I just started an awesome one by accident, but I don't know how much time I'm going to be able to give it right now.
<kyak>
rozzin: there is "gmu" already, what could have been better? :)
<rozzin>
kristianpaul: MPD works perfectly find on a loopback socket.
<kristianpaul>
rozzin: yeah, i was thiking that too
<kristianpaul>
at least it could allow me to swich to other apps
<kristianpaul>
rozzin: at home is on a separate machine, but yeah loopback is valida
<rozzin>
kristianpaul: I's how I'm running it, right now.
<wejp>
you can siwtch to other apps with gmu too
<wejp>
switch
<kristianpaul>
wejp: oh, yeah??
<kristianpaul>
alt + ..
<wejp>
yes, just change the terminal
<kristianpaul>
ha, i was afraid to try just to not lost the track of my song.. :-)
<kristianpaul>
good to know
<wejp>
yeah, works nicely :)
<rozzin>
It's a lot less work to hook GJay into MPD than into GMU.
<wejp>
with the latest version of gmu it also does no longer turn off the screen when in gmu is running in the backround
<kristianpaul>
rozzin: you could ask to the list, music player alternatives are always wellcome i think
<rozzin>
Mostly because I already did the GJay+MPD part. ;)
<kristianpaul>
shit
<kristianpaul>
oops
<kristianpaul>
B_Lizzard: rockbox menu is written in wich language?
<rozzin>
The work that remains is all getting GJay integrated into openwrt.
<B_Lizzard>
I think most of Rockbox is either assembly or C
<kristianpaul>
rozzin: upstream yeap :-)
<B_Lizzard>
Um, it's both assembly and C
<B_Lizzard>
That's what I meant
<B_Lizzard>
I guess the menu is in C
<rozzin>
And possibly modularising-out all of the stuff that's not useful on the NanoNote.
<B_Lizzard>
But Rockbox ain't Linux
<B_Lizzard>
It's an OS in itself.
<kristianpaul>
ah..
<kristianpaul>
wow
<kristianpaul>
nice :-)
<kristianpaul>
it will boot reallt fast on the nanonote i bet
<B_Lizzard>
Probably yeah
<B_Lizzard>
I say to hell with this Linux crap
<rozzin>
And maybe switching GJay's DB format from XML to sqlite or something, depending on how it ends up performing.
<B_Lizzard>
Use plain text!
<kristianpaul>
yes please
<B_Lizzard>
XML sucketh.
<B_Lizzard>
Maybe we could port Emacs OS on the nanonote
<kristianpaul>
what?
<kristianpaul>
noo ;-)
<rozzin>
B_Lizzard: having to spend 15 seconds loading 3 MB of `plain text' on every playlist-refresh doesn't sound all that much better than having to spend 30 seconds loading 4 MB of XML.
<B_Lizzard>
Ugh
<B_Lizzard>
3MB of plain text?
<B_Lizzard>
That's a big-ass playlist.
<B_Lizzard>
:)
<rozzin>
B_Lizzard: Though, if you're offering to help, I'll take you up on the offer regardless of what DB-format you think you want to use.
<B_Lizzard>
I get your point.
<rozzin>
B_Lizzard: That's not the playlist. That's the DB of song-metadata.
<B_Lizzard>
Um, I'm not even sure what you're doing, sir.
<B_Lizzard>
Ah, a mixing thing?
<rozzin>
B_Lizzard: See the URL I dropped earlier.
<rozzin>
Hm. I seem to have dropped the useful commentary from the script.
<rozzin>
goes and finds it, puts it back in...
<kristianpaul>
B_Lizzard: 12:16 < stripwax> yep, if it runs linux, then it could run the rockbox sdl app.
<tuxbrain_away>
yay! the author of the avr-toolchain script where I had based to do the mipsel avr toolchain has bough 2 NN :)
<tuxbrain_away>
/s/bough/bought
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain_away: great !
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain_away: you are good making sales ;-)
<tuxbrain_away>
well not not the amount in that case what makes me so exicited.. is the client and his positive feedback on the avrfreaks forum  what makes me happy :)
<kristianpaul>
thats potencially more sales ! ;)
<kristianpaul>
You're asking fro avrfreaks nock you door last night, woah ! that was fast
<tuxbrain_away>
at least to point to us if there is any linux oficial implematation of the protocol on going somewhere?
<tuxbrain_away>
and/or any other hardware alredy on the market using 6Lowpan
<tuxbrain_away>
mmm if this can be done with just an micro and an tiny lcd... what can we achieve with a NN? http://labs.teague.com/?p=933 well regards and good night :) going to sleep, tomorrow I have some NN to send :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (6lowpan) it's probably not very appropriate to do outright advertizing. but if you participate there, you may be able to drop the name :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (official linux) afaik, there's nothing that works very well. and certainly not in mainline. the linux-related action (very little of it) is on linux-zigbee
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: there are some devices on the market, some of which even work with linux. they're usually targetted at having more local intelligence, though, so they're more complex, more expensive, etc.