<jlamothe>
Can anyone explain to me why thc CC-BY-SA license was chosen for hardware?  It seems to be more suited to music.
<kristianpaul>
music is a creative creation, lets see hardware diagrams like that, a master piece :-)
<kristianpaul>
Also open hardware linceses are not going anywhere, they still putting non-comercial clauises and doing a very high level of dificulties at the end for be just a license
<kristianpaul>
(persona opinion)
<kristianpaul>
also you dont license hardware itself, just the sources for making that hardware, wich at the end are diagrams, software, text
<kristianpaul>
there are plenty of licenses for that, why see hardware like just *one* thing when it is not
<kristianpaul>
?
<kristianpaul>
hi jlamothe :-)
<wolfspraul>
jlamothe: which license do you propose?
<wolfspraul>
a copyleft manufacturing license would be cool, imho, but then I think licenses are not that important with hardware. Maybe we should multi-license everything under a whole bunch of the open hardware licenses, for fun :-)
<wolfspraul>
like 10 or so :-)
<jlamothe>
I don't really have an alternative.  I was just curious as to why that one specifically was chosen.
<jlamothe>
I'm developing hardware right now, and was looking for a good copyleft license.
<jlamothe>
Right now, it's under GPLv3, but I was told CC BY-SA might be better.
<kristianpaul>
Btw can you tell us what hardware are you developing?
<jlamothe>
It's an Arduino shield, that allows it to do proper 0-10v output, instead of 5v PWM.
<jlamothe>
I'm really more of a software developer, I've only been getting into hardware in the past couple years.
<wolfspraul>
jlamothe: nice. that puts you right smack into the middle of our core people here.
<wolfspraul>
GPLv3 is definitely also a good choice.
<jlamothe>
It's what I've always used for my software.
<wolfspraul>
for example the Elphel cameras (www.elphel.com) are licensed under GPL
<jlamothe>
So, it seemed a natural choice.
<whitequark>
jlamothe: so are you going to use some kind of boost converter?
<wolfspraul>
well. it's probably close to meaningless in hardware, although you could make the same argument for cc-by or cc-by-sa
<jlamothe>
Basically, just a capacitor and resistor to smooth it out, and an op amp with negative feedback, to double the voltage.
<wolfspraul>
the FSF will not help making GPL more meaningful/enforceable in hardware. it's just a symbolic act really, imho.
<jlamothe>
The shield also supplies power to the Arduino through the VIN pin.
<wolfspraul>
you can dual-license under gpl and cc-by-sa
<jlamothe>
Probably what I'll end up doing.
<wolfspraul>
what do you try to achieve with the license?
<jlamothe>
I basically just want to make sure it remains accessible.
<jlamothe>
I'd hate to see someone turn it into something proprietary that I can't hack on.
<wolfspraul>
no need to worry about that :-) no hardware company in the world would even go close to any of this open/copyleft stuff.
<jlamothe>
wolfspraul: There was a time they said that about software companies.  ;)
<wolfspraul>
agreed. in software we have a situation that many companies ignore the gpl, if not legally, then at least blatantly violating the culture and values of the gpl.
<wolfspraul>
but in hardware for sure that doesn't exist now. put the gpl on it and no hw company will touch it (if that's what you think is 'accessible')
<jlamothe>
It is a bit of a tricky situation though.  I happen to work for an electronics company.
<wolfspraul>
aha :-)
<jlamothe>
They know I'm doing this, and they're cool with it though.
<jlamothe>
We're looking at totally different target demographics.
<wolfspraul>
if you care about the product (functionality), I'd say stick with gpl/cc-by-sa, maybe dual-licensing, and forget about the license stuff.
<wolfspraul>
focus on the product
<jlamothe>
Yeah.  That's my primary focus.
<wolfspraul>
if there were as many successful open hardware projects as there are open hardware licenses, we would be much further along today.
<jlamothe>
It's mostly about the learning experience for me.  It just so happens that I had a number of people asking me (to my surprise) if I can make boards for them too.
<wolfspraul>
which EDA tool do you use?
<wolfspraul>
for schematic capture and layout
<jlamothe>
gEDA.
<wolfspraul>
nice
<wolfspraul>
Qi is mostly using KiCad right now
<jlamothe>
I was going to go with Eagle, but I figured that if I was going to learn a tool, I'd rather learn a free (libre) one.
<wolfspraul>
but geda is the other big free one, of course
<wolfspraul>
yes, good
<kristianpaul>
CERN uses gEDA i think
<wolfspraul>
early on wpwrak chose KiCad, and we have been happy with it ever since
<kristianpaul>
sure :-)
<whitequark>
the amount of good libraries for eagle is much larger, in my experience. how do you solve that problem?
<jlamothe>
I taught myself to make my own footprints.  The supplier I use for parts is good about supplying datasheets.
<wolfspraul>
we've done some nice things like schematics revision history, automatically from kicad commits into the qi projects server
<wolfspraul>
jlamothe: cannot help you with 'all-around', but we are using QCad for the case of our Milkymist One VJ station
<wolfspraul>
'using' means we have produced cases, are selling functioning products, etc.
<wolfspraul>
so that's a starting point, I think
<wolfspraul>
this was done by raumfahrtagentur.org, they may have more interesting links for you
<jlamothe>
Hey, look at that... QCad is even in the default Ubuntu repository.  :D
<wolfspraul>
yes but don't expect an 'all-around' autocad replacement
<wolfspraul>
I think you need to approach it the other way round - what is possible with QCad, that's what you will do :-)
<jlamothe>
If I can draw simple schematics, I'm happy.
<wolfspraul>
schematics with autocad/qcad?
<jlamothe>
Yeah.
<wolfspraul>
I think it's similar with kicad/geda. once you use these tools, you really have to accept where they are and help grow them too, with feedback, patches, etc.
<wolfspraul>
if you compare with your beloved pads layout, orcad, altium designer every day, you may as well stay with those
<jlamothe>
Yeah, but I try to use as little proprietary software as possible.  If I can find a passible F/OSS substiture, I'll gladly deal with the discomfort of making the change-over.
<jlamothe>
I don't have that option at work, but on my own PC, I do.
<jlamothe>
Well, I do at work too... just not to the same extent.
<jlamothe>
Anyhow, thanks for the input.  It was very helpful.
<wolfspraul>
jlamothe: what tools do you use at work?
<jlamothe>
AutoCAD and Eagle.
<jlamothe>
Also some really specific stuff like Echelon NodeBuilder/LONMaker
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, you are very welcome. please come back here when you have more feedback or questions.
<wolfspraul>
all of those tools like geda/kicad, qcad, also on the IC design side, are very much the center of our work here
<jlamothe>
Well, the Echelon stuff is for programing Neuron chips, which allow our hardware to communicate using a proprietary protocol, used by some of the other hardware we need to be compatible with.
<wolfspraul>
we've also started some work on a sourcing system, called 'boom'
<tuxbrain>
there is any clear tutorial on how to setup QT-creator to compile to NN? I have searched on SIE part but all is a little messy, If not I will have to create one my own :P
<wpwrak>
jlamothe: i think if you feel tempted to use qcad for doing schematics, you're doing something wrong :)
<wpwrak>
jlamothe: gEDA schematics capture used to be quite horrible, with many hidden fields. not sure if this changes. kicad is pretty cool but has lousy selection (blocks and such). qcad shines there, but lacks the connection to layout making.
<wpwrak>
jlamothe: kicad schematics capture and schematics symbol creation is quite tolerable once you're used to it. the gui can sometimes be a little awkward but doesn't really get in the way.
<wpwrak>
jlamothe: for footprints, fped is pretty strong. you can either use it via the gui or "program" your footprints with its footprint description language. here are some examples for footprints generated with fped: http://people.openmoko.org/werner/gta02-core/gta02-core-modules.pdf
<wpwrak>
jlamothe: gEDA's pcb autorouter runs circles around kicad's. but kicad is quite strong when it comes to manual routing. kicad's autorouter is sufficient to do designs that should be obvious to your dog. gEDA's autorouter is sufficient for designs that take you 1-5 minutes to solve in your head. pcbnew's manual layout lets you tackle more complex things.
<wpwrak>
jlamothe: there are semi-automatic routers that go beyond this as well, but i haven't found one that's entirely convincing yet. (alas, the one best supported by kicad is free-to-use but otherwise as closed as it gets)
<viric>
tuxbrain: you plan to make a qtopia program'
<viric>
?
<viric>
tuxbrain: or X based?
<viric>
Does someone have directfb working fine in the nanonote?
<viric>
what about the browsing experience without mouse?
<kyak>
it's just the same as text mode links
<viric>
ah great
<viric>
it all looks fine then
<viric>
Working since 23-02-2011? quite recent! I'm not following qi enough :)
<kyak>
well, working since 1 month 11 days :)
<viric>
I see I see
<viric>
so that may be the best option onw
<viric>
now
<viric>
for browsing
<viric>
On another state of things, whould someone post the alsa configuration for softvol? I'm mad about finding that
<kyak>
i like w3m better.. somehow it looks nicer (imho)
<viric>
hm ok
<viric>
kyak: and cyrillic look fine in both?
<kyak>
yeah, working fine
<kyak>
fbterm+w3m is capable of chinese/japanes, too
<viric>
but then without pictures
<viric>
has w3m any javascript?
<kyak>
why not?
<viric>
I don't know
<viric>
I don't use it
<kyak>
with pictures
<viric>
ah
<viric>
Well, what does fbterm do there
<viric>
'
<viric>
?
<viric>
isn't fbterm rendering the text in that case?
<kyak>
without fbterm, linux console won't show more than 256 symbols
<kyak>
so you will only see those glyphs that yo uhave in your console font
<viric>
so w3m uses the font rendering in the console? And additionally it paints pictures?
<viric>
I did not think it could be possible
<kyak>
it is :)
<viric>
how does w3m know the size of the text glyphs, to place the pictures?
<kyak>
huh?
<viric>
I don't understand how it works :)
<viric>
it either uses curses, or it renders the framebuffer. Isn't that an either-or?
<kyak>
w3m uses gdk-pixbuf to draw images. gdk-pixbuf is using directfb for that
<kyak>
w3m draws symbols to terminal, the terminal displays them
<kyak>
if there is no such symbol, there will be garbage
<viric>
'draws'?
<kyak>
therefore, fbterm is used
<viric>
w3m does not draw, w3m says: put the character X
<kyak>
dunno, replace it with "prints" :)
<kyak>
or "puts", ok
<viric>
and the terminal draws whatever character w3m said
<viric>
As of using curses, w3m sees the terminal as a matrix of characters to be drawn
<viric>
But as of gdk-pixbuf, it sees it as pixels
<viric>
Well, I better read the code. I never thought it could be done :)
<kyak>
w3m is not using ncurses at all
<viric>
ah no?
<kyak>
nope
<viric>
What is the API to draw characters on the screne then?
<viric>
screen
<kyak>
it uses some own implementation
<viric>
I thought the only way of drawing text into a terminal was sending characters to its file descriptor
<kyak>
i think it's only one of the ways
<viric>
that would be a great discovery for me
<viric>
kyak: what font do you use in fbterm?
<viric>
I got good cyrillic only instalilng some Microsoft fonts :D
<kyak>
fbterm is using unifont
<kyak>
xiangfu: btw.. i'm running the trunk image now. Most apps work fine, some not so fine. sdcv and stardict hit the oom killer when running without swap :)
<kyak>
guess 0.9.32 has got more fat
<xiangfu>
kyak: great you running trunk image now. what is your image size?
<kyak>
xiangfu: at the same time, qstardict runs fine and provides more options (like text to speech)
<kyak>
xiangfu: 383778816
<kyak>
on device, it is 339.0MÂ Â Â Â 121.1M
<kyak>
used/avaialble
<viric>
kyak: what swap size do you use?
<kyak>
viric: usually it's 32 Mb
<xiangfu>
kyak: cool. QT apps works fine now with 0.9.32 great.
<kyak>
for now i'm running without swap, the SD card is used somewhere else :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: what test to speech using in qstardict? flite?
<viric>
is that qt on X?
<kyak>
yep
<kyak>
xiangfu: btw, qt apps still segfault on exit -\
<kyak>
viric: qt in FB
<kyak>
xiangfu: Use flite to speak words: set "flite -t %s play" in qstardict options.
<viric>
great
<kyak>
xiangfu: btw, i'm using your flite 1.4 Makefile, slightly modified. There is still older version using OSS in opewrt feeds
<xiangfu>
kyak: I have tried this in 2011-02-23. not working in 2011-02-23. great it's working in trunk image
<kyak>
xiangfu: it is working in latest image, too
<xiangfu>
kyak: then maybe my setup is wrong. :)
<kyak>
hm..
<xiangfu>
kyak: (flite) I should send the patch now to upstream. too many works delayed
<kyak>
xiangfu: btw, how do you activate the text to speech? after setting the "flite -t %s play" in qstardict options you must search for the word you want to speak
<kyak>
otherwise, it would speak "play"
<xiangfu>
let me check
<xiangfu>
kyak: ok. after setting "flite -t %s play" . it works fine now.  why you add the 'play' at the end of 'flite ..' ?
<kyak>
if WAVEFILE is unspecified or "play" the result is played on the current systems audio device.
<kyak>
i think i wanted to avoid disambiguation :)
<kyak>
hm, some other apps don't run without swap
<kyak>
like supertux
<kyak>
actually, i never ran the latest image without swap.. it's just a coincidence that i'm running trunk without swap
<kyak>
i wonder if the memory consumption was the same in latest image
<kyak>
that's why when i have my second Ben, i would be able to compare :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: I just revert our make file of flite. you can find more info in git log
<xiangfu>
kyak: I have try to update the upstream 1.3 to 1.4. there is a patch about share libs. I can not make merge it to 1.4. so I will just keep the flite 1.4 in openwrt-package.git
<kristianpaul>
argg this software asusmes a correlator chip,too bad
<kristianpaul>
osgps out of my list.. well for now
<kristianpaul>
looking for a software correlator
<tuxbrain>
viric, not qtopia, using qt 4.7 they work also on framebuffer no need of X, (but it can also work with X aka Jlime) , I'm seting up the env to crosscompile directly form Qt-creator, once my first example compiles I will do a tutorial on how to do so, an then I will work in my ardunote app
<kristianpaul>
:o
<kristianpaul>
kudos tuxbrain
<kristianpaul>
hmm,interesting gp2021 born as a flos replacement for the dead gp2021 correlator..
<tuxbrain>
kristianpaul: what are you surprised ? for the willing to do a tutorial ? for setting up Qt-Creator? or that I was able to write a coherence sentence that looks like I know what I'm doing?
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain: ;-)
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain: no, because you're moving fast on this ardunote thing
<kristianpaul>
need speedup gps-sdr thing
<tuxbrain>
dreams on a next ya with two 8:10, wpan and gps
<tuxbrain>
and touch screen and a 640x480 res, with suspend working
<tuxbrain>
and why not a MM core twice fast and half power consuming
<tuxbrain>
hey don't look me like this, I said I dream on  :)
<tuxbrain>
then should re cross-cross compile avr-toolchain for lattice-mico32 :P
<kristianpaul>
you missed the gsm stuff ;-)
<tuxbrain>
no I let this for the qi-phone :)
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain: ha, you can even have a avr clone inside the chip :-)
<kristianpaul>
hehe
<kristianpaul>
:-)
<tuxbrain>
kristianpaul: (MM core) I'm refering to ASIC not FPGA :P
<kristianpaul>
oh wow :-)
<tuxbrain>
once I found a million or two, we can start the project
<tuxbrain>
no I don't want to taint NN with propietary stuff, any step forward should be towards freedom :)
<Jay7>
and yes, 3g modem :)
<tuxbrain>
(jornada keyboard) I'm have heart parted in two, in one side I love the NN form factor it size is really pocket perfect, jornada doesn't fit in a pocket ... but yeah I has an incredible keyboard
<tuxbrain>
3g same as wifi, no freedom no way
<tuxbrain>
If freedom is not the concern then any HTC device with kb can fit needs.
<tuxbrain>
maybe a jornada slim as the screen part of NN , if closed can definitively make me decide :P , for now I will defend NN form factor
<mth>
I don't think they made a movie of that yet ;)
<tuxbrain>
yes I had writed right
<tuxbrain>
ah! it was Michael Tansella
<tuxbrain>
well watever is a second method but it's less espectacular than see a just compiled app popup in ben screen.... with just a click o a button....
<tuxbrain>
mmm maybe playing with the post building options I can figure out..
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (kbd) if you can get your hands on an oqo 01/01+, you may want to give that one a try. the keyboard is even smaller than the ben's, and it feels very nice. of course, you're typing with two fingers at a time, but it's still pretty friendly.
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: did you ever had a jornada in your hands?
<tuxbrain>
680/720
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: hmm, probably held rafa's or miriam's once or twice. i know the hp100lx very well, and i loved that keyboard very much.
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: yeah that ogo thing seems to find out a pretty kb layout :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: best layout i've ever seen
<tuxbrain>
wolfgang, take note for NN evolutions :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: in particular, they've had the courage not to have dedicated function keys. about the only other keybaord where i've seen this is the case is the HHKB
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: well htc ones also doen't have fn keys :P
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: alright, the ben is almost phone-sized :)
<kristianpaul>
walkie talkie?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: that would be a very very fancy walkie-talkie ;-)
<kristianpaul>
Why not? :D
<tuxbrain>
(walkytalky) what? NanoNote?
<kristianpaul>
hides
<tuxbrain>
kristianpaul: nowhere to hide this is logged :P
<wpwrak>
probably a bit fragile for that. also, not the most convenient shape.
<wpwrak>
bit an interesting idea nevertheless :)
<tuxbrain>
also will be very complicated to have something transmiting with enough power to achieve useful distance.... or I'm wrong?
<tuxbrain>
well if we find a 8:10 solution we have a sensitive mic and a loud speaker...
<kristianpaul>
and RMF12B modules..
<kristianpaul>
(useful distance) yeap :/
<tuxbrain>
R;F12B which distance can achieve powered by 8:10 gpios?
<wpwrak>
with a little parabolic reflector, you can use narrow beam transmission :)
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: but that's directional
<tuxbrain>
thinks if a 9V battery and a bigger antenna can become a NN a long range radio tranmisor reciever=
<tuxbrain>
maybe is an interesting hack for atben...
<viric>
tuxbrain: do you know much radio?
<tuxbrain>
viric: as much as anything... barelly nothing at all
<viric>
:D
<tuxbrain>
but I'm totally fool and brave :)
<tuxbrain>
and very obstinated
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: the chip used for atben/atusb does support an external rf amplifier. so you could probably increase the range by a factor of (theoretically) 7
<viric>
that puts you in advantadge over many who know radio :)
<kristianpaul>
7 ! :o
<viric>
wpwrak: is it working on microwave range?
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: however, if you blast signals at 100 mW, you have all sort of regulatory constraints to worry about. 2 mW stay nicely below the radar ;-)
<wpwrak>
viric: with an RF amp, you'd still use the exactly same frequencies. just with a stronger signal
<kristianpaul>
hope get a radio-ham license next month
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: You have to read I have talked about a hack, so not a product
<viric>
wpwrak: that's why I ask. I don't want more stronger microwave around.
<viric>
:)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: oh, sure. make it 10 W then ;-))
<viric>
and I imagine it's microwave, from the size of the antenna.
<wpwrak>
viric: it's in the 2.4 GHz ISM band
<viric>
clear
<tuxbrain>
well if posible I would love to do so :) I can then read sensors from km (or maybe fry them)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: wireless heating ;-)
<kristianpaul>
agrees with tuxbrain
<viric>
kristianpaul: I was thinking to use the nanonote for some CW training :)
<tuxbrain>
imagines him self with a bagpack with batts and whatever stuff needed and a UBB cable :P
<tuxbrain>
CW?
<viric>
for morse training, for people interested in continuous wave communications
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: but now seriously, is complicated to achive that rf amp?
<viric>
from scratch?
<viric>
it requires some accurate designs, if it's in the microwave range
<viric>
but I imagine there are prebuilt things around; 2.4GHz is a popular band nowadays
<tuxbrain>
viric: sounds like not as simple as solder a resitor an plug a 9V bat thing :P
<viric>
tuxbrain: that would be more for a microphone, if you add a capcitor :)
<tuxbrain>
viric wpwrak I talking about that x7 increase and using atben, not the 10W thingy
<viric>
ah
<viric>
I've no idea.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: you'd have to redesign the circuit. add the rf amp chip. lemme see if the documentation is accessible ... (they had a 404 when i looked for it)
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: with the words redesing the circuit you have scared me for ages... don't worth the meaning to search.... too late
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: looks a little messy. quite a bit of extra components. but maybe there's also a more integrated solution. i think TI have one for their 802.15.4 line
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: definitively this is out of the range of easy hack, forget I have said anything ok? :)