<kyak>
we used to have ncursesw (ncurses wide version, which does support UTF-8) when we were tracking openwrt trunk
<kyak>
but there was no ncursesw in backfire.
<kyak>
it was just not backported there
<kyak>
but since we went back to tracking backfire, we lost ncursesw
<wolfspraul>
ok, following
<kyak>
therefore i added it to openwrt-packages.. thus effectively overwriteing ncurses from packages/ncurses of backfire base system
<kyak>
in fact, ncurses Makefile and pacthes in openwrt-packages is just a copy of ncurses from latest openwrt
<kyak>
now, we have support for UTF-8 in ncurses
<kyak>
we had, before mirko marked it as broken
<kyak>
and UTF-8 works i nfact.. tested with a bunch of apps like lynx, abook..
<wolfspraul>
yes sure
<wolfspraul>
but we will just enable it again :-)
<wolfspraul>
mirko just wants his peace on the testing branch, and as long as openwrt-packages had no matching testing branch, this created a conflict for him, for whatever reason
<wolfspraul>
but now there is a testing branch in openwrt-packages as well
<kyak>
i'll just ask mirko to read my explanation above.. maybe he will even backport ncursesw to backfire
<kyak>
this would be the best solution
<wolfspraul>
I don't understand why he marked ncurses as broken on the opwenwrt-packages master branch though
<wolfspraul>
I think we can re-enable ncurses in the openwrt-packages master branch
<kyak>
hm wait a second
<kyak>
i thought openwrt-packages IS a testing repo
<wolfspraul>
eh, that's a separate discussion/definition
<kyak>
from what i understood now, we need to merge commits from master to testing
<wolfspraul>
no 'need', if you think it's critical for the next upcoming release, then yes
<kyak>
i think all commit should go there, why not?
<wolfspraul>
commits go to master first
<kyak>
what is broken, is marked as broken
<kyak>
what is working, is working
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
but I think ncurses was working before, just depends for whom :-)
<wolfspraul>
because the openwrt-xburst and openwrt-packages branches are not in sync
<wolfspraul>
I have a related question: is it a good idea in general to have 2 packages with the same name in 2 different locations?
<kyak>
not the best idea. but it works
<wolfspraul>
what if the ncurses in openwrt-packages would be ncurses-utf8 or so, just to give it a distinctive name
<wolfspraul>
what would be the consequence? dependency problems?
<kyak>
yes, a lot of packages depend on libncurses
<kyak>
it's not possible just to use another name
<kyak>
as i said, the best would be to backport it to backfire
<kyak>
in fact, it wil not cause any problems because it is tested..
<kyak>
maybe you rememeber, i asked larsc to backport some commits to backfire to make ncursesw build
<wolfspraul>
yes, remember
<wolfspraul>
they don't like the idea of backporting ncursesw?
<wolfspraul>
I think the solution with ncurses in openwrt-packages is just fine
<wolfspraul>
mirko's problem comes from him being on the testing branch and running into a conflict
<wolfspraul>
my understanding is that we can re-enable it on the master branch anyway, but I will confirm with him
<kyak>
i didn't ask to backport ncursesw, i thought we could do  "locally" (i.e. in openwrt-packages) without disturbing anyone :)
<kyak>
in fact, i remember that we had local ncurses once
<kyak>
and then it went upstream
<kyak>
and we removed it from openwrt-packages
<kyak>
it was some work between larsc and... bartbes?
<kyak>
i would like to know about mirko's problem
<kyak>
and conflicts he had on testing branch
<wolfspraul>
he said "it broke also so I marked it as broken"
<wolfspraul>
alsa
<wolfspraul>
not also
<wolfspraul>
"it broke alsa so I marked it as broken"
<kyak>
don't follow the connection..
<wolfspraul>
mirko said "ncurses in openwrt-packages broke alsa so I marked it as broken"
<kyak>
what he said in git log:
<kyak>
[ncurses] mark ncurses as broken, since it interferes with openwrt/package/ncurses
<wolfspraul>
ok let's see what he says later
<wolfspraul>
my understanding is about the branches, and since there is a testing branch in openwrt-packages now, ncurses can be enabled again in openwrt-packages/master, as long as it works for master
<wolfspraul>
in general overriding the same package name is probably not very clean, but if it works I guess it's OK as a workaround
<kyak>
ok...
<xiangfu>
kyak:Â Â have you test the if "libncursesw" compile fine after mirko mark the "libncurses" as BROKEN ?
<xiangfu>
kyak: I guest it's will still compile fine (ont tested)
<xiangfu>
s/ont/not/
<xiangfu>
s/guest/guess
<kyak>
xiangfu: uh, no... wait a second.
<kyak>
.
<kyak>
actually you may be right
<wolfspraul>
you guys lost me now?
<xiangfu>
Mirko mark the another "libncurses" as broken, not "libncursesw"
<wolfspraul>
the package name is 'ncurses'
<kyak>
theoretically, it would take libncurses from openwrt-xburst and libncursesw from openwrt-pacakges
<wolfspraul>
ah no, the folder is 'ncurses' but the package is 'libncurses' and 'libncursesw'
<kyak>
mirko indeed marked 'libncurses' VARIANT is broken
<xiangfu>
package name is 'ncurses'Â Â in oepnwrt-package include two package: libncursesw and libncurses
<wolfspraul>
if the 'libncurses' package in openwrt-packages comes out exactly as the upstream one, then why don't we just have the libncursesw package in openwrt-packages?
<wolfspraul>
and if that gets backported to backfire one day, we remove it. or if we update to the next release, we remove it as well.
<kyak>
if it works now as xiangfu suggested, this might be exactly what we have now. just libncursesw package in openwrt-packages
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
but then we still need to decide whether we want to remove the BROKEN marked parts (libncurses package), or leave it just as is (maybe will confuse someone later)
<kyak>
actually you are right, we could remove the libncurses completely from Makefile.. marking at as BROKEN could be just easir :)
<kyak>
i wonder why there's still two libncurses in menuconfig..
<kyak>
i also see that utilities depending on ncurses get deselected
<kyak>
it looks like it got even worse now
<kyak>
marking libncurses as broken in openwrt-packages somehow affects libncurses from openwrt-xburst
<kyak>
and all other paps depending on it
<kyak>
*apps
<xiangfu>
kyak: yes. those two libncurses all marked BROKEN in menuconfig.
<kyak>
i think im going to fix it as wolfspraul suggested.. leave only libncursesw in openwrt-packages
<xiangfu>
kyak: sound good.
<kyak>
xiangfu: btw, yesterday i was able to type russian in Qt app!
<wolfspraul>
and I think by committing to 'master', in both openwrt-xburst or openwrt-packages, we will not intefere with mirko's testing branches and activities
<kyak>
all thanks to kmap2qmap, which convert linux console keymaps to Qt keymaps
<kyak>
it also means that all special keys of Ben are working in Qt
<xiangfu>
kyak: good job. :)
<kyak>
also mirko fixed that annoying bug when Qt app couldn't exit correctly
<wolfspraul>
kyak: well, not in NanoMap yet, it seems
<kyak>
wolfspraul: in NanoMap, too!
<wolfspraul>
really?
<wolfspraul>
you tried it?
<kyak>
maybe he strted NanoMap from gmenu2x
<wolfspraul>
I thought mirko said earlier in this chat that nanomap still doesnt' exist
<kyak>
then it won't exit corerctly because export QWS_DISPLAY=linuxfb is not set
<wolfspraul>
yes, probably from gmenu2x
<kyak>
this is another problem
<wolfspraul>
so where to we have to export the variable to gmenu2x has it too?
<kyak>
gmenu2x won't read /etc/profile on startup, and doesn't know about those env
<wolfspraul>
where do we have to...
<kyak>
we need to export those before starting NanoMap
<kyak>
somewhere in gmenu2x menu item
<kyak>
maybe a wrapper
<kyak>
xiangfu: btw, maybe it's better to start gmenu2x in another way through inittab
<kyak>
calling it via ash --login
<kyak>
so it would know about env vars
<xiangfu>
kyak: for now it's "tty1::respawn:/usr/bin/gmenu2x"
<xiangfu>
kyak: everytime I exit the 'NanoMap', I must input "ctrl +c " for total exit.
<kyak>
what do you mean?
<kyak>
it has has characters left in console?
<xiangfu>
1.  run the "NanoMap -qws" in terminal.  2. exit NanoMap by "ESC".
<xiangfu>
then the command line not return until I send "Ctrl + C"
<kyak>
yep. same here
<kyak>
moreover, if yuo press some buttons in NanoMap, you then wil see those characters on concolse after you exit
<kyak>
xiangfu: is that really important? you are returning back to gmenu2x after you exit NanoMap.. if you run it in console, Ctrl+C is the most frequent key combination anyway :)
<kyak>
btw, running build now.. had to rename ncursesdirectory to ncursesw and cleaned up things related to ncurses from Makefile
<wolfspraul>
well it should exit without ctrl-c, I think
<kyak>
xiangfu: you can test Qt with other apps from qt4-demos
<kyak>
wolfspraul: it exits, but some crap is left in terminal
<kyak>
so you have to ctrl+c to clean up your command line
<wolfspraul>
maybe not highest priority, but in general I'd say cleanliness is important :-)
<wolfspraul>
there's a lot of strange left-over texts and blinking in general when flipping around apps on the NanoNote
<wolfspraul>
but it's not top priority right now I'd say, compared to many lower hanging fruits we can go after
<kyak>
xiangfu: try /usr/share/Qt4/demos/textedit/textedit -qws to see how incredibly slow it is :)
<kyak>
in fact, X11+gtk1 is faster than Qt
<xiangfu>
kyak: add "/bin/ash --login -c " to inittab or add "source /etc/profile" to  gmenu2x both make NanoMap works. which one do you think is better :)
<kyak>
source /etc/profile i think is better.. to avoid creating of parent process of gmenu2x (overhead)
<xiangfu>
kyak: we are not select qt4-demos by default. I need compile them for test.
<kyak>
xiangfu: i have it compiled, can put to somewhere on fidelio
<kyak>
oh no i haven't :)
<kyak>
cleaned it
<wolfspraul>
does it make sense to include them? to quickly make people see what is possible and what is not possible?
<wolfspraul>
we continue to have gtkperf in the image, and I think it's nice for that purpose
<kyak>
i agree
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul: gtkperf, we can start it but we can not exit normal, must start another shell "kill" it. that why gtkperf not in gmenu2x
<xiangfu>
kyak: what is the different about qt4-demo, and qt4-example ?
<kyak>
xiangfu: in my understanding, "demos" are applications, which are ready to use.. "examples" are just samples of different UI elements and Qt technoquies
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: no need to add it as an icon, that's a bit too much
<wolfspraul>
I think it's nice for someone who thinks about developing to quickly get an idea of the potential of the platform, or where it stands
<wolfspraul>
but that potential developer may very well go to the command line first and start it from there
<kyak>
xiangfu: btw, in my somewhat minimal build gtkperf can be started fine, but stardict fails to start.. i'm still trying to figure out what does stardict lack for, since it works in full_system
<xiangfu>
kyak: should we change the "ben-cyrillic" to "y" now?
<kyak>
xiangfu: i'm not sure. It makes changes in /etc/profile adding LC_ALL=ru_RU.UTF-8 env, and it also enables keymap switching via "Qi" key.. i don't think everyone needs it.. Somebody can even get confused - like "oh, and what's..
<kyak>
..that nice key with some Chinese symbol? Oh, no, i'm typing some weird language!".. Let users enable it via opkg install ben-cyrillic
<xiangfu>
kyak: ok.
<xiangfu>
kyak: from the source code. the after display the "loading... ", the stardict try to access network
<kyak>
is connected to my laptop at this moment, the network is up and running... from strace, one of the thrteads is segfaulted
<kyak>
i think i need to build gdb, because strace is not showing any more info
<xiangfu>
kyak: can you send me the ".config" you using . I will try to test here.
<xiangfu>
kyak: also I found the "Terminal" section not show up in gmenu2x. :(
<kyak>
you need to run menuconfig and enable stardict
<wolfspraul>
kyak: it would be nice to have cyrillic working by default, same as others like chinese, japanese, korean, hebrew, arab, etc. _BUT_ you are right, we cannot just set LC_ALL to ru_RU
<wolfspraul>
so there would need to be some way to switch/cycle through
<wolfspraul>
(btw, I also think we should have an easy way to cycle through console fonts, with some hotkey)
<kyak>
wolfspraul: i was thinking about some first-time configuration wizard.. let people choose time zone, language etc
<wolfspraul>
sure, and it could be re-run from an icon in gmenu2x
<kyak>
right
<wolfspraul>
but I do think more languages should be preinstalled in the image first, we do have space for some fonts and keymappings and stuff
<wolfspraul>
cyrillic definitely
<kyak>
maybe it could be done in Qt, since we have it running :)
<xiangfu>
another thing . we should add "poweroff" in gmenu2x , right? :)
<wolfspraul>
then we also have lots of customers in Japan
<wolfspraul>
so better out-of-the-box Japanese would be cool
<wolfspraul>
well let's start with cyrillic, since we have you :-)
<kyak>
run fbterm, get Japanese display support :)
<wolfspraul>
get that working very well...
<wolfspraul>
yes sure
<wolfspraul>
but we also need to have the fonts installed, needs to be thought through a little
<wolfspraul>
we get there
<kyak>
xiangfu: we have a real button for power off :)
<kyak>
why not? i wonder if there is a way to ask user to confirm his action in gmenu2x
<kyak>
or maybe just to have a simple Qt wrapper for all those reboot, suspend, poweroff
<wolfspraul>
reboot is just off & on, no?
<wolfspraul>
suspend - ideally the nano could do that himself on inactivity, until then or to expedite it there may be a key...
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul: while the NanoNote reboot. we can press "U", it's a easy way to goto usbboot mode.
<wolfspraul>
he
<wolfspraul>
yes :-)
<wolfspraul>
I was wondering whether we need 2 different actions - off & reboot. Or just 'off'.
<wolfspraul>
reboot = off + on, no need for a special action, imo
<kyak>
wolfspraul: i use "reboot" pretty oftern.. it's faster than turning off, the holding the button to turn it on...
<wolfspraul>
ok then :-)
<kyak>
xiangfu: regarding the suspend, i noticed that the screen won't go blank when gmenu2x is started
<xiangfu>
kyak: when we press POWER buttion. there is a hardware delay. that's why it's slow. :(
<kyak>
xiangfu: btw, is it necessary to delay those 3 seconds before start? is it done to prevent turning on by accident?
<kyak>
xiangfu: oh, another idea - have the brightness control in gmenu2x :) since you implemented it.
<kyak>
maybe two buttons - increase 5 % and decrease 5%
<xiangfu>
kyak: in gmenu2x there is one setting option. "LcdBacklight" 0 ~ 100.
<xiangfu>
kyak: we just need change the gmen2x code to implement it
<kyak>
does it work?
<kyak>
so i thought :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: seems we just need change one line :fopen("/sys/class/backlight/pwm-backlight/brightness", "w+");Â Â gmenu2x.cpp:151:
<kyak>
xiangfu: is there some hotkey to change the brightnes? or how it is done?
<kyak>
or it only changes when you start some application?
<kyak>
gmenu2x source - would be great if it realyl was that easy :)
<xiangfu>
kyak: if we have "cmdpad" or "triggerhappy hotkeydaemon" then it's easy create hotkey.
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: what happened to triggerhappy upstream?
<wolfspraul>
if they don't add it, let's just add it in openwrt-packages then it doesn't matter how slow upstream is :-)
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul: Florian have reply the email says, it's ok. but nobody have commit it to upstream.
<wolfspraul>
kyak: about the turn on/off speed, I doubt it's that much of a hardware issue, although individual units may differ in the speed. but I can tell you for sure that the proprietary software we are replacing is much snappier and faster in both turn on and turn off.
<wolfspraul>
for the proprietary software, you see a reaction (boot screen) after < 1 second for sure when turning on.
<wolfspraul>
basically you press the button down, and before you lift your finger back up you see a reaction
<wolfspraul>
it boots to a fully working system in ca. 4 seconds
<wolfspraul>
turn off < 1 second for sure as well, maybe even < .5 seconds
<wolfspraul>
so that's the gold standard :-)
<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: I saw that mail, well if nobody applies it then I suggest we just move forward in openwrt-packages
<xiangfu>
wolfspraul: ok.
<wolfspraul>
it doesn't cost us much time to add it there (10 minutes or so), and if upstream adds it fine, it takes another 10 min to remove.
<wolfspraul>
I want to make a list of cities where our customers live, and include maps of those cities :-)
<kyak>
wolfspraul: maps are in png, and they occupy rather much space :) for example, it took around 1 Gb to download Frankfurt and suburbs to the maximum zoom level
<wolfspraul>
kyak: well let's see. we start, learn, improve, etc.
<wolfspraul>
I'm a huge believe in OpenStreetMap
<wolfspraul>
believer
<kyak>
nice commit to NanoMap above, need to update it in pacakges,too
<kyak>
OpenStreetMap is reat
<kyak>
*great
<wolfspraul>
just the beginning
<wolfspraul>
I think it will be bigger and more meaningful than Wikipedia, say in 10 years
<wolfspraul>
we live in our environment after all :-)
<wolfspraul>
qi-hw.com was only meant to work for selected URLs, as a shortener
<kyak>
same as fidelio.qi-hw.com
<wolfspraul>
same
<kyak>
ah ok
<wolfspraul>
I mean if you like short urls, can can add those
<wolfspraul>
but then we can even do qi-hw.com/f for fidelio :-)
<wolfspraul>
but it adds maintenance overhead, so I do the short URLs one by one
<wolfspraul>
also I don't want multiple urls pointing to the same place, it always causes headaches later
<kyak>
this makes sense
<wolfspraul>
I setup qi-hw.com only for the commitlog
<wolfspraul>
so the lines coming out here in IRC are short, make sense, but are valid/active urls people can click on
<kyak>
yeah.. i remember that
<kyak>
don't bother, i was just wondering if this is ok
<kyak>
B_Lizzard: hi! how's your OE-based distro going?
<B_Lizzard>
Fine, fine
<B_Lizzard>
Made some optimizations here and there
<B_Lizzard>
I'll need to start working on some applications
<B_Lizzard>
PIM and the like
<kyak>
oh, great.. is PIM an input method daemon?
<kyak>
B_Lizzard: i remember you had a nice shutdown dialog. Is it Qt? Did you release the source code? i think it would be nice having this in openwrt...
<B_Lizzard>
kyak, Personal Information Manager
<B_Lizzard>
Contacts, Calendar etc
<B_Lizzard>
kyak that's just a shell script
<kyak>
ah, yes, it's defintiely a worthy application.. could be tricky to fit it to 320x240 though
<kyak>
B_Lizzard: a shell script? what does it use as a graphics?
<kyak>
B_Lizzard: let me know when you have something new and interesting, i'm willing to test. Always many new ideas from jlime guys :)
<B_Lizzard>
:)
<B_Lizzard>
thanks, I sure will
<wpwrak>
kyak: btw, when installing packages, does openwrt use opkg, like jlime does ? i.e., do you also have the "opkg needs swap to even run" problem ?
<kyak>
openwrt uses opkg
<kyak>
openwrt runs fine without swap
<kyak>
:)
<wpwrak>
hmm. maybe that's just because there are fewer packages :)
<wpwrak>
but you're using the same. that's already good. thanks.
<qi-bot>
[commit] Niels: first try to fix building with OpenWRT toolchain that does not include QtCore and QtGui in the include path http://qi-hw.com/p/nanomap/da88ec2
<kyak>
wpwrak: what are you using yourself with your Ben?
<kyak>
wpwrak: i've noticed your increased interest to jlime toolchain recently :L)
<wpwrak>
kyak: for now, my bens still have openwrt in NAND. one of them now has a uSD with jlime. (the other is glued to a board, waiting for the cnc mill to become available and the pcb scan to proceed)
<kyak>
what's cnc mill?
<wpwrak>
my plan is to migrate to jlime, mainly because of the much larger choice of packages
<kyak>
how long does it take for one scan?
<kyak>
what are the packages that you need and they are not in openwrt?
<wpwrak>
kyak: (packages) nothing specific, because i haven;t done much with the ben yet. it's just very likely that i'll eventually run into things that jlime/OE has that openwrt doesn't.
<wpwrak>
kyak: sure i do :)
<wpwrak>
it's not as monstrous as you may think. a bit larger than a printer.
<kyak>
wpwrak: my opinion: openwrt has around ten times less pacakges than OE, but it doesn't matter since openwrt is used by people and their needs are similar. howvere, with OE you have high changes to run into application that..
<kyak>
..might not work at all because it's untested
<wpwrak>
kyak: it lives is a box with thick sound-proof walls. so i can even do some light work a night, without getting death threats from the neighbours :)
<kyak>
oh, i got it wrong... it's a scanner, not a printer
<wpwrak>
it mills :-) it's a subtractive process, no additive. kristianpaul's machine "prints". mine has a "drill" that removes material
<wpwrak>
it's scanner and mill. it has two different heads. when i install the scan head, it's a scanner. when i remove the scan head and install the milling head, it's a mill.
<kyak>
does it create 3D models while it mills? or it uses 3D models to mill?
<wpwrak>
it moves the head along a so-called toolpath. the result depends on what that toolpath looks like.
<kyak>
cool.. what was your aim when you bought it?
<wpwrak>
e.g., the mold was made by removing wood in a sequence of layers. i also cut pcbs with it, etc.
<wpwrak>
(aim) mainly to learn about cnc an to be able to make things like cases
<kyak>
what about the stripes on PCBs?
<kyak>
how the "got inside"?
<kyak>
*they
<wpwrak>
you mean the traces ? (the copper, covered with tin)
<kyak>
yeah, those
<wpwrak>
they're not inside. they're on top of the board.
<kyak>
you just glued it?
<wpwrak>
the boards come covered with copper. then i "print" the layout on the copper and etch away the copper i don't needs.
<kyak>
ah!
<kyak>
very intestering.. can you that with knife? :)
<wpwrak>
"print" = i print the layout on a special paper with a laser printer, then transfer it with heat+pressure (e.g., with a clothes iron) to the PCB
<wpwrak>
etching is a chemical process :) i use a mixture of peroxide and muriatic acid
<kyak>
so you actually burn those traces out
<wpwrak>
it's not as scary as it may sound :)
<kyak>
not cutting them
<wpwrak>
not burning. etching.
<kyak>
ok, etching :)
<wpwrak>
the transfer of the layout is just hot enough to transfer the toner, not to affect board or copper
<wpwrak>
it's the acid that does the work :)
<kyak>
so you're actually to produce your home-made PCBs...
<kyak>
*able to produce
<kyak>
this is awesome
<wpwrak>
yup
<wpwrak>
it's a nice capability to have :)
<kyak>
how much does it cost?
<kyak>
one PCB
<wpwrak>
duh. hard to calculate.
<wpwrak>
do you include machine use ? tool use ? (tool = the "drill") work ?
<kyak>
but much less than if you have ordered in on factory?
<wpwrak>
no idea ;-) probably. and it's fast. i can go from layout on the pc to having the board ready for soldering within about an hour.
<rafa>
built emacs... what should be do?.. I just learnt C-x C-c :)
<kyak>
include the PCB cost and chemical costs (so only expendables)
<kyak>
or consumables
<kyak>
however it's called :)
<kyak>
rafa: take care not to get RSI :)
<kyak>
use vim for your own good
<wpwrak>
the chemicals are very cheap. the boards ... about USD 6 for a 10x15 cm board. how many circuits i can make from that one depends on the size of the circuit.
<wpwrak>
something between 2 and 12 :)
<kyak>
wpwrak: do i understand correct that you don't need the millling machine to do etching?
<wpwrak>
rafa: i was about to give you a nice example, but then i noticed that i don't have an emacs on any of my machines ;-)
<wpwrak>
rafa: i think Esc X doctor  should do something nice
<wpwrak>
kyak: the mill is just for cutting the board. i could also do this with a dremel if i wanted to. of course, with the mill it's much more precise.
<wpwrak>
kyak: and boards with a compex shape are no fun with a dremel
<kyak>
do you use some kind of press to put that laser printing on PCB?
<wolfspraul>
kyak: there is no way Werner can beat costs, probably not even on 1 PCB. but the 2 main advantages are gaining knowledge, and turnaround speed
<kyak>
wolfspraul: are you saying that one factory made PCB is cheaper than 6 USD? (not mass production)?
<wolfspraul>
keep in mind what Werner can do there :-) 2-layer etc
<rafa>
wpwrak: I ran.. it is saying me : "I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice."
<wolfspraul>
check out batchpcb.com, for example
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: actually, having small quantities of boards made isn't that cheap. after all, they need to recover their setup cost
<rafa>
wpwrak: woww! :D
<rafa>
wpwrak: and it has colors :)
<kyak>
wpwrak: very nice..
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: and the ultra-cheap places are a fedex away ...
<wolfspraul>
yes true, fedex = 30+ USD
<wolfspraul>
or it's terribly slow again
<kyak>
is there a way to do 2-layer PCBs at home? :)
<wolfspraul>
your process has some unbeatable advantages, like I said the 2 that stand out for me are knowledge and turnaround speed
<kyak>
glue together two 1-layers PCBs :)
<wolfspraul>
for example for developing a PCB antenna :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yup. they're the key advantages, particularly turnaround.
<wolfspraul>
for something like batchpcb.com you will need x weeks, who knows how many
<kyak>
it's super rapid indeed
<wolfspraul>
they bundle boards together
<wpwrak>
kyak: 2 layers is not a problem. you can buy boards that have copper on both sides. then you apply the same process on both sides. either at the same time or sequentially.
<kyak>
wpwrak: what about 4?
<wpwrak>
kyak: both at the same time is faster, sequentially is more precise. so you can choose :)
<wpwrak>
kyak: > 2 is a very very different story ....
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: what I meant is at 4 layer, or more, HDI and what not, it's obvious that home-DIY is not an option. not today, not tomorrow. who knows when, if ever...
<wolfspraul>
but that's not the point, the point is to focus on where it excels, and it does for many very specific problems
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yup. 4 layers, small vias, etc., all that's not an option, unfortunately
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: there's some gruesome process for doing via "properly" but it's with quite a lot of chemistry. metal-acid solutions and such.
<kyak>
wpwrak: do you call the connection between PCBs a "via"?
<wolfspraul>
batchpcb.com has a 10 USD setup fee, 2.50 USD / square inch for 2 layer, plus shipping
<kyak>
i always called it a "hole"
<kyak>
or whatever :)
<kyak>
between l[3~;ayers
<wolfspraul>
and you can even do 4-layer at batchpcb at 8 USD / square inch
<kyak>
terminal glitch
<wolfspraul>
in the US it's probably a really cheap option, since they can ship with US Postal mail
<wpwrak>
and multilayer needs more chemistry, high pressure, and so on. you can probably do it at home if you're really determined. powerful presses aren't so expensive. but it turns what would be a relatively straightforward and easily automated process into a lot more manual work. and one problem of the manual bits is their error rate.
<wpwrak>
kyak: via = hole with copper that connects both sides
<kyak>
wpwrak: thanks ;) i ahve to translate sometimes things to English and i called that "interconnection hole"
<kyak>
but i was understood :)
<wpwrak>
kyak: yeah, it's just understandable :)
<wpwrak>
rafa: and, did it help ? ;-))
<Guest90570>
can anyone assist me with an asus motherboard purchase?
<kyak>
wpwrak: i assume you want rafa to run into one of your tricks, don't you? :)
<wpwrak>
kyak: naw, i just showed him something where emacs is better than vi :)
<kyak>
that's a hotkey in emacs to clean swipe your hard disk and call a doctor automatically :)
<rafa>
wpwrak: I need to re read the whole chat with the doctor... the nn screen is small.. but naving emacs text is not hard it seems. He is mainly saying me that I am the problem!!.. Is there some way to change the psychotherapist there? :)
<wpwrak>
rafa: we should invite silvina to write an update for doctor.el ;-)
<wpwrak>
rafa: oh, i heard a story that there's some guy who did the following experiment: he got two psychiatrists and told each the other was delusional, thinking he was a psychiatrist. then he set them loose on each other ;-) alas, i don't know how this turned out
<kyak>
in turned out in some butt kicked
<kyak>
and double bill :)
<wpwrak>
kyak: i'm not sure this is an approved treatment method. they do have electroshocks, though ...
<rafa>
wpwrak: silvina would do better questions for sure :)
<kyak>
hmm i just noticed there are three simultaneous builds on build host :)
<kyak>
i stopped mine for good
<wolfspraul>
kyak: why? too slow?
<kyak>
pretty slow yes
<wolfspraul>
hmm
<kyak>
load average: 2.47, 2.85, 2.99
<wolfspraul>
good, at least we are not wasting money
<kyak>
not a bit of it! :)
<wolfspraul>
well let's see
<wolfspraul>
the buildhost will probably get more work over time
<wolfspraul>
say for example if we do the planned layout history brdhist
<wolfspraul>
or other server-side scripted stuff
<wolfspraul>
so maybe if we are all still happily building there, it's time for a more powerful machine :-)
<wolfspraul>
kyak: but right now I'd say if you just wait a day or so, it should slow down. mirko is trying to get his release out, and xiangfu is constantly building something because he plays with the config files so much.
<wpwrak>
we'll eventually manage to bog it down ;-)
<wolfspraul>
when I play/test the config files, I also like to just let the buildhost crunch on them... slow or not... so I can focus on more low-latency stuff on my notebook
<kyak>
wolfspraul: not a problem.. i'm building on my host, and buildhost is interesting to me because it's 64bit. But i don't really have anything to test right now
<wolfspraul>
sure sure, but I want you to be happy about the buildhost, not turn away in disgust :-)
<wolfspraul>
so please keep the feedback coming
<wolfspraul>
I was a bit stingy with the 29 EUR buildhost, because I first wanted to see how much use we can squeeze out of the machine
<wolfspraul>
but now we already use it for 2 really nice use cases: schhist, and people building openwrt images
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: btw, you mentioned that you're planning to do more things with boom sometime soon. about when, and what ? i'd like to make sure to set aside a bit of time for that.
<wolfspraul>
ah
<wolfspraul>
my todo juggling
<wolfspraul>
yes I'd love to start
<wolfspraul>
your Xue TODO list is awesome!
<wpwrak>
thanks :) i notice that it silenced them ...
<wolfspraul>
I would most likely start there.
<wolfspraul>
Andres already gave me commit permission, he he
<wolfspraul>
big mistake! :-)
<wpwrak>
*grin*
<wolfspraul>
I will apply my super-superficial jtag-serial skills on that much bigger project now :-)
<wpwrak>
good luck with the beads/inductors/filters ! ;-)
<wpwrak>
i notice that they're a recurrent problem :)
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
many things to learn
<wolfspraul>
but it's OK
<wolfspraul>
those are valuable missing pieces in our copyleft hardware story
<wolfspraul>
so I'm up for it
<wolfspraul>
about timing, don't know
<wolfspraul>
no need to reserve time for my stupid questions
<wolfspraul>
I come from the manufacturing side
<wolfspraul>
first priority is still milkymist one rc2
<wolfspraul>
many things moving there, like roh's cases, jtag-serial daughterboards, power adapters (local regulations), etc. etc.
<lekernel>
wolfspraul: what xue todo list?
<wolfspraul>
after that is Xue, but I will probably start to get my hands dirty before Adam jumps into Xue
<wpwrak>
(timing) it's about having time to enhance boom where it's needed and such. e.g., by adding groups of components and such. i basically work these things on an on demand basis.
<wpwrak>
that is, if i don't need anything new, very little happens.
<wpwrak>
(power adapter) oh dear. you let yourself get caught in this quagmire ...
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: don't worry I understand that
<wolfspraul>
we cannot all point fingers at Werner
<wolfspraul>
I think I get the architecture of boom, it has a strong and extendable design
<lekernel>
ah, yes
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (boom) i also want to rewrite the whole boom core in C. it's already getting quite slow and we're not nearly at a comprehensive set of components.
<wolfspraul>
true, it's slow, but then again, we are still in the < 30 seconds range
<wolfspraul>
bearable
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (boom) and then, add some goodies like a part database browser. right now, it's too hard to find things there.
<DocScrutinizer>
I got a whole 'book' full of beads/filters, if you have any use for that :-P
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: hey Joerg!
<wolfspraul>
we need you! :-)
<wolfspraul>
are you going to 27c3 btw?
<DocScrutinizer>
nope, no money
<wolfspraul>
is Dieter going?
<DocScrutinizer>
don't know
<wpwrak>
then, the workflow also has some issues. e.g., right now, i let it proceed past errors, so that one can ignore problems at one stage the work on bringing the things that almost work to completion. this is nice to far. but it has the disadvantage that it's easy to overlook problems. example: if a component can't be matched, it will not be fed to the inventory lookup. so you get a BOM simply without that component, with only a warning in
<wpwrak>
an early stage but no further complaint.
<wpwrak>
so lots of little issues that need addressing at some point in time. just let me know when you'll embark on that journey and i can do a bit of trailblazing. easier for you if things get cleaned up before you hit the problems than encountering them and being uncertain whether they're part of the design or just bug :)
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: ok let me email a friend of mine in Berlin see whether I can find a cheap place to crash
<wolfspraul>
I start to like the underground life :-)
<wolfspraul>
I would love to hookup and get an update on things, maybe we find a way...
<DocScrutinizer>
wolfspraul: don't bother about a place to stay. I probably could find such place. But tickets were sold 11.11. and travel, diner etc aren't for free
<wolfspraul>
I'm not planning to stand in line for those tickets anyway :-)
<kyak>
what's 27c3?
<wolfspraul>
let me see what I can do, also find out whether Dieter is going
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: how do you plan to sneak in ?
<wolfspraul>
I haven't started any serious 27c3 planning yet
<wolfspraul>
no sneak in, I just stay out
<wpwrak>
:)
<wolfspraul>
I don't like how they are managing access anyway. I like public space.
<wolfspraul>
should be held in a public space I think.
<DocScrutinizer>
kyak: world's largest hacker meeting
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul:  nano could do that himself on inactivity <- power button press 1s suspend, more  poweroff
<kyak>
DocScrutinizer: it's soo cool google doesn't know it ;)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: propietary sofware for ben have suspend support?
<DocScrutinizer>
or maybe at least the most honored one
<wolfspraul>
good question don't know
<wolfspraul>
probably not, it's so fast on power on/off
<kristianpaul>
kyak: nanomap  <- hope it sill fast and seems to be right now
<kristianpaul>
lekernel: feature request page for milkymist looks empty, are u blogging or telling the world about it? :-)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: i had a horrible time at OM with OE until i stopped trying to use it as a build environment :)
<kristianpaul>
kyak: 27c3 nice event i discovert it last year, seems germany is a good place for geeks or related people :)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: once others provided the packages and i could just ask them for anything i needed and tell them where i kept my code and they would package it for me, things went very smoothly
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: so the key to OE success is outsourcing ;-)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: sure relay in others is good :)
<kristianpaul>
thanks rafa B_Lizzard !! :)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: ah you made deals with rafa just because both live near ;-)
<kyak>
kristianpaul: yeah, looks interesting! though geeks are usually antisocial and only gather together to drink beer ;)
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: indeed why bother when device is really fast powering up
<DocScrutinizer>
kyak: you'd be surprised
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: about this propietary sofware, it is a OS or a standalone app? i'm just curios what they find better to run on the ben
<wolfspraul>
not sure, probably some microkernel plus apps
<wolfspraul>
I don't know much about it, never cared
<kristianpaul>
microkernel :D
<kristianpaul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
I could ask and all, but why...
<kristianpaul>
yeah time wasted
<wolfspraul>
it works well though, and still beats us on several key metrics
<wolfspraul>
like screen stability (there is still more flickering with Linux than with the proprietary sw), boot time, shutdown time
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: naw, it's coincidence that rafa is doing just what i like :)
<kyak>
when you are talking about "proprietary software" for Ben, you mean it's original electronic disctionary instance?
<wolfspraul>
but we got A LOT closer over the course of last year, and I am optimistic about the future
<kristianpaul>
wolfspraul: at least have a better idea of its featires in order to know in wich it still beating
<wolfspraul>
yes, it's a whole suite of software
<wolfspraul>
including makeup tips for girls and what not
<wolfspraul>
it's nice, definitely a nice package
<wolfspraul>
all sorts of useful little things
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: those 3 stand out, after that we should be OK: screen stability (flicker), boot time, shutdown time
<kristianpaul>
:)
<DocScrutinizer>
have fun with screen flicker!
<DocScrutinizer>
a bitch
<wolfspraul>
DocScrutinizer: it got much better over time. What we have today on OpenWrt, and probably also Jlime/Debian is definitely usable
<DocScrutinizer>
1st you need to make sure if it's LCD or backlight
<kristianpaul>
Debian? :O
<kristianpaul>
ah *probably*
<DocScrutinizer>
seen BL flicker on several devices
<wolfspraul>
just when comparing say the latest openWrt image and proprietary software side-by-side, it's still evident that ours has more flickering
<wolfspraul>
this does differ slightly from one device to another, but even if you look at 10 of them, we need to admit that for some reason their software produces a more stable image
<wolfspraul>
but again, it got A LOT better over the last months
<wolfspraul>
it wouldn't even be high on my priority list anymore with where we have it now
<kyak>
has it been improved from the software side?
<wolfspraul>
I just answered where the proprietary software still beats us, and this is one of them.
<DocScrutinizer>
so it's LCD driver and settings?
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, a lot
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
drive IC settings, timings, clocks, etc.
<wolfspraul>
larsc knows the whole story
<DocScrutinizer>
and scheduler, IRQ handlers... whatnot
<wolfspraul>
it's good now, usable!
<kyak>
can't we just copy those? ask the original manufacturer about those settings
<wolfspraul>
the proprietary sw is still a tad better, that's all
<wolfspraul>
it's not so easy, we spent a lot of time on it already
<wolfspraul>
screen flicker is good now
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<DocScrutinizer>
yeah, a buzz-class problem
<wolfspraul>
we have lower hanging fruits to go after
<wpwrak>
kyak: not a bad idea. provided contamination issues aren't a problem
<DocScrutinizer>
though this is fixable by sw it seems
<DocScrutinizer>
settings as in register values aren't (c) anyway
<DocScrutinizer>
read out and copy
<kristianpaul>
kyak: printer <- afaik i cant scan ,but i dont really care for that
<DocScrutinizer>
for timing issues caused by IRQ response latency that's a completely different game
<DocScrutinizer>
you might have to do awful things like sync scheduler timedisk to VSYNC
<DocScrutinizer>
...completely rework IRQ handler structure, process table handling, etc
<DocScrutinizer>
plus investigation/debugging is a nightmare
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: why would IRQ matter ? i think it's flicker of static content, not necessarily flicker caused by updates unsynchronized with vertical blanking
<DocScrutinizer>
No idea about how you manage your framebuffer
<DocScrutinizer>
videobuffer
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: (reg values) the issue with looking at the sources is that they won't just contain the register settings. so someone could claim that you've copied some of the other stuff
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: (flicker) even such nice effects like VDD noise caused by different CPU loads might cause timing jitter on an oscillator...
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: okay, that's evil ;-) but if the original sw doesn't have a problem there, chances are we shouldn't either
<DocScrutinizer>
there's zillions of possible contamination pathes for things like LCD jitter
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: besides, there's an *army* of caps in the LCM ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
nr1: stop *all* processes, see if flicker changes
<DocScrutinizer>
to rule out it's an actual sw load and operation induced issue
<wpwrak>
agreed
<wpwrak>
i wonder if it's possible to properly quantify the damn thing. that way, one could compare different register settings and such.
<DocScrutinizer>
then go insert NOP into driver loops etc
<DocScrutinizer>
(quantify) that'S another problem that quite resembles buzz issue
<DocScrutinizer>
IOW: sounds like fun
<DocScrutinizer>
to quantify you first need to *understand* the nature of flicker. Do proper video recording - then analyze frame by frame, and exactly spot the differences that cause the flicker
<DocScrutinizer>
will teach you a lot about possible root causes
<wpwrak>
video recording may be tricky. any changes with a photo transistor or such ?
<wpwrak>
chanCes
<DocScrutinizer>
nope, not as long as you don't even know if it's a weird form of interlace flicker aka hsync freq interference, or a moving black/bright bar, or whatever
<DocScrutinizer>
sporadic noise causing a dither of pixels that are off the correct value
<wpwrak>
in either case, you should be able to detect a variation of brightness within a sufficiently small area. granted, with just one "pixel", you won't be able to tell how this relates to adjacent areas
<DocScrutinizer>
or maybe just a VSYNC jitter that makes the img jump up and down
<wpwrak>
okay, perhapt the first step would be to find patterns where it does/doesn't happen
<DocScrutinizer>
yes
<wpwrak>
that ought to tell something about the nature of the flicker
<DocScrutinizer>
and proper video recording and A/B or differential analysis
<DocScrutinizer>
start with a plain white screen and see if it still is flickering
<DocScrutinizer>
do same with a gray screen
<DocScrutinizer>
then go to different checkboard patterns
<wpwrak>
then hline/vline pattern, etc.
<DocScrutinizer>
yup
<wpwrak>
or maybe primary colors first
<DocScrutinizer>
still a crappy video that can be viewed frame by frame is a powerful tool
<DocScrutinizer>
should be done with same freq as VSYNC, or a multiple
<DocScrutinizer>
some few cameras can do slomo
<wpwrak>
may be difficult to find such a camera. i mean without spending money :)
<DocScrutinizer>
even if you can't get slomo/sync, it's still worth a try
<DocScrutinizer>
you may 'test' camaras in shop
<DocScrutinizer>
or visit you nearby peoples' media center
<DocScrutinizer>
you even might strob the BL :-P
<kristianpaul>
Hey i have my Canon camera running chdk i cat take shots up to 1/100k aperture speed !
<kristianpaul>
if that may help
<kristianpaul>
s/i/it
<DocScrutinizer>
sounds good
<kristianpaul>
s/cat/can
<DocScrutinizer>
now if you could sync it to VSYNC...
<kristianpaul>
DocScrutinizer: what aperture speed should i try?
<DocScrutinizer>
or flash an LED during VSYNC strobe, and just take enough pictures to get a few that were taken same relative point in time in relation to VSYNC
<DocScrutinizer>
I'd suggest both a aperture time of = one frame of LCD aka VSYNC period, and ultrashort, as short as possible, and hope you catch some unambiguous takes where you can understand what's going on
<DocScrutinizer>
doing this with the patterns mentioned above may be a tedious way to get same results like with a proper slomo cam
<DocScrutinizer>
also scoping LCD bus VSYNC, HSYNC, pixel clock, and data should tell you something
<xiangfu>
will remove the fn-handle project in projects.qi-hardware.com since we have triggerhappy or cmdpad in openwrt which is much better.
<DocScrutinizer>
actually should tell a lot
<DocScrutinizer>
do this for both sw stacks, the flickering and the non-flickering one
<DocScrutinizer>
pst the scope screenshots or data files
<DocScrutinizer>
post*
<DocScrutinizer>
so nerds like me can drool over them
<wpwrak>
he's currently busy in a completely different war ...
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: btw how's RF noise in your new flat?
<wpwrak>
hmm, about 2 dB ambient, i think. most of the noise seems to be homemade
<DocScrutinizer>
cool
<DocScrutinizer>
much better for scoping, than when living in a giant microwave oven :-P
<wpwrak>
i now filter my antenna signals with: 1) the USRP's tuner, 2) decimation, 3) limit the frequencies in the FFT, 4) throw away too small amplitudes, 5) reject total power that's more than 2 dB from the average, 6) do all this over 100 runs.
<DocScrutinizer>
hah, still that antenna design?
<wpwrak>
(that's for measuring the antenna's frequency-dependent sensitivity)
<wpwrak>
yeah. messy business without the right tools ...
<wpwrak>
with the right equipment, it would be connect, press a button, and there it is
<DocScrutinizer>
yep
<wpwrak>
(microwave oven) my scope is quite happy with the new surroundings :)
<DocScrutinizer>
then send some meaningless diagrams to customer, which are puzzled by one diagram not matching the other :-P
<wpwrak>
i'm working on the meaningless diagrams ...
<wpwrak>
... just did a first full run. now the 2nd is in progress.
<wpwrak>
then i'll see how much the same configuration differs from itself ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
and add some nonsensical tech speack, and make customer move speaker and eventually abort project
<DocScrutinizer>
hell, if time had bothered to send a "commercial" antenna from arbitrary garmin et al devices to that antenna design house, back when
<wpwrak>
i think i'll just add filters until i get some result. worst case, i reverse the amplitude filter, reject the signal and just average over the noise. that should be nice and even ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
the GPS ant for gta03
<DocScrutinizer>
s/time/Tim/
<wpwrak>
you're saying they did their measurements wrong ?
<DocScrutinizer>
sure
<DocScrutinizer>
we spotted that, and clearly told, but nobody cared
<wpwrak>
i remember there were some oddities
<wpwrak>
like the same point in one plane looking quite different in the other plane
<DocScrutinizer>
the value for 0° was differing in X and Y plane
<DocScrutinizer>
yep, exactly
<wpwrak>
but then, i don't know to what extent such things can be expected to happen. e.g., if there's an implied change of polarization
<DocScrutinizer>
well, anyway a "this diagram doesn't 'look' nice enough" isn't a valid rating for a GPS antenna
<DocScrutinizer>
esp if there's quite a lot of other oddities in same test series, that aren't explained at all
<DocScrutinizer>
they shipped some crap as they knew we never can check if it's proper or not
<wpwrak>
you mean OM already had earned a reputation ? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
sure
<DocScrutinizer>
that antenna house for sure knew what we possibly can do and what we definitely can't
<wpwrak>
then they knew a lot :)
<DocScrutinizer>
that's not difficult to know
<wpwrak>
i mean the sheer quantity of data. particularly in the latter category :)
<DocScrutinizer>
a) OM was rather open. b) rather noobish in some respects c) we asked for lowest price and probably hadn't any quality requirements
<xiangfu>
wpwrak: there are two different lines :)Â Â don't understand the hardware :)
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: it's a measurement of the strength of a signal sent from one device to another, at various frequencies. the objective is to found out if there are any frequencies that don't work well. e.g., 2410 doesn't look too good in this example.
<wpwrak>
xiangfu: the two graphs differ only a little, so i think (hope :) that's good enough
<wpwrak>
s/found/find/
<kristianpaul>
-30db looks for a few meters...
<xiangfu>
wpwrak: thanks .
<kristianpaul>
how is that in mili Wats ?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: decibel of whatever ;-)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: the distance is about 3.5 m
<wpwrak>
i don't have any calibrated equipment, so i can't tell what the energy really is. nor can i compensate for frequency-dependent sensitivity of the receiver or the "fixed" antenna
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: to make it more interesting, the sender is "imperfect", namely an atusb board. so absolute values mean nothing. the only thing that matters are differences at the same frequency.
<rafa>
This is free software with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.
<rafa>
kyak: intuitive
<rafa>
For details type `warranty'.
<rafa>
kyak: he will start to write " 2+5"  3*4"?  :)
<rafa>
kyak: and now the fun part.. the user needs to know how to exit ...
<kristianpaul>
kyak: it is
<rafa>
bc: ctrl+C nothing.. "exit+ENTER" nothing
<rafa>
help+ENTER nothing
<kyak>
rafa: ok, i have very small idea about user-friendliness..
<kyak>
ctrl+c will exit btw
<kyak>
^C
<kyak>
(interrupt) Exiting bc.
<kristianpaul>
take off the baterry always works ;-)
<rafa>
kyak: CTRL+C
<rafa>
you sure?
<rafa>
kristianpaul: battery : yeah ;))
<rafa>
kyak: so it is intuitive if ctrl+c works and he never realized that bc is a calculator?
<kyak>
rafa: you are right that "bc" might mean nothing to a regular user. i'm not sure though that there is 1 % of users among 1000 buyers that don't know what bc is
<kyak>
and there is certainly noone who doesn't aware about ctrl+c
<kristianpaul>
just let the icons with colors kyak
<kyak>
kristianpaul: i don't argue, just do those icons :)
<kristianpaul>
well i have commit permisions too just wait i got this source code again
<kristianpaul>
i meant remove the console based apps
<rafa>
kristianpaul: can you check /usr/bin/recorder.sh ?
<rafa>
kristianpaul: that file is a simple script which does the recorder application :)
<kyak>
kristianpaul: you might want to discuss it with someone else.. i wasn't the one who added them, and i'm good with them
<kyak>
in fact, i don't have gmenu2x started by default, so...
<kristianpaul>
rafa: damn no i let my ben at home :(
<kristianpaul>
rafa: ok
<kristianpaul>
kyak: i will
<kristianpaul>
writing mail
<rafa>
kyak: I have seen users asking how to install applications.. so I am sure that a big % of nn users do not know bc
<rafa>
kristianpaul: I can upload the file.. that is okey.. it is just a text file
<kyak>
installign applications is a specific thing to every distro
<rafa>
kristianpaul: if you want to check now
<kristianpaul>
rafa: later :)
<kyak>
bc is a common knowledge :)
<rafa>
kyak: yes sure :)
<kristianpaul>
"Debian is slow, as far as applications... well, I can run emacs. This                                                        "
<kristianpaul>
is a huge win. But it is damn slow to power on
<kristianpaul>
what?
<kristianpaul>
..
<kyak>
long boot time
<kristianpaul>
mm nighsky need icon
<kristianpaul>
alsamixer.. well it need a better gui
<kyak>
indeed
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<kristianpaul>
abook??
<kyak>
gui for alsamixer is too mcuh :)
<kristianpaul>
you should see jlime :D
<kyak>
i think i didn't?
<kyak>
*you think
<rafa>
kristianpaul: qi openwrt can not run X app
<rafa>
s
<kristianpaul>
ahh
<kristianpaul>
kyak: B_Lizzard version in OE
<kyak>
i know
<kyak>
rafa: is jlime also upstream?
<rafa>
telnet, ftp, python, perl, gdb, ed are all interactive.. should have icons=
<rafa>
?
<rafa>
kyak: yes and no.. current beta 4 has a lot of ideas already on upstream. Blizzard is doing that work.. if he thinks that some ideas from betas are okey for upstream he sends patches to kriss and kriss push that on OE.. There are other ideas from B_Lizzard which goes to upstream as well. SO well, that is all stuff from jlime.. so yes.. jlime is on upstream
<kyak>
rafa: do you know only "hot" and "cold" and never heard about "warm"? A calculator, even console-based, should be available in one button click. It is also reasonable to add some other usefull console apps which a frequently..
<rafa>
kyak: btw, you said that maybe some applications on jlime repo might no work .. can you tell us which ones? (I am talking about repi on qi servers built from OE)
<kyak>
..used. This should be adequate and nobody is trying to add all interactive console apps in gmenu2x.
<rafa>
repi=repo
<kyak>
rafa: haven't tryed the image from qi repo
<kyak>
last time, opkg worked strange
<kyak>
also i couldn't mount my datafs with mtd-utils
<kyak>
i didn't have a closer look
<rafa>
kyak: what do all of that have to do with jlime repo ?mount problems and opkg strange)
<kyak>
jlime is mostly interesting with it's applications.. many ideas like nupdf, fbida, whatelse came from jlime
<rafa>
kyak: please.. add just a Packages file text on your qi openwrt system with an index of 15000+ packages and your opkg on your qi openwrt will not work. Also.. mount problems to mount datafs is because the kernels in jlime and openwrt has different nand partitions
<kyak>
rafa: i installed mtd-utils with opkg from OE. it doesn't work
<wpwrak>
rafa: (bc) if you have only 2000 packages, you can't be picky ;-)
<kyak>
this answers your questions "what apps might not work" >)
<rafa>
kyak: it is not a problem of mtd-utils.. the problem to mount is because kernels have hardcoded the nand partitions
<kyak>
are you sure?
<rafa>
kyak: yes
<kyak>
i'm not :)
<kyak>
it's just ubiattach
<kyak>
why would it care?
<rafa>
kyak: you can not ubiattach if kernel thinks that partitions are different
<wpwrak>
rafa: correction. you very much hope you can't ... ;-)
<kyak>
rafa: i'm not sure i understand you
<rafa>
kyak: and that does not answers "what apps mights not work".. because you are wanting to mount a data partitions which kernel does not know
<kyak>
this is just your explanation about why this very application doesn't work
<rafa>
kyak: mmmh?.. are you a troll?
<rafa>
kyak: qi openwrt kernel has a different partition table inside than jlime kernel.. you can not mount your qi partitions on jlime because kernel think different
<kyak>
not understandable..
<wpwrak>
kyak: how exactly do the mtd-utils fail ? maybe you and rafa are talking about different things
<kyak>
i can use it as i use "mount"
<kyak>
wpwrak: uh.. i don't remember now how exactly it failed
<rafa>
ha.. funny
<wpwrak>
kyak: well, which of the mtd utilities did you try to run ?
<kyak>
wpwrak: really, don't bother about it..
<wpwrak>
i guess package cross-use isn't much a priority then ...
<kyak>
sleep();
<wpwrak>
(reading about debian on the list) quite scary ...
<wpwrak>
(regarding the wallpaper) the high-contrast background does indeed look awful
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: saw the mail about NAND speed compared to uSD ?
<kristianpaul>
:)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: yeah. dunno. someone should benchmark them.
<rafa>
wpwrak: the socrates wallpaper looks a bit suspicious as well.. the image looks like a modified version of a socrates picture.. is that CC?
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: raw (device) and through file system.
<wpwrak>
rafa: apparently yes. wolfgang checked it.
<rafa>
wpwrak: good painter then
<rafa>
;)
<wpwrak>
rafa: wee, not CC. i think it's public domain. because its copyright has already expired.
<wpwrak>
s/wee/err/
<kristianpaul>
rafa: is public domain
<rafa>
kristianpaul: okey.. in Argentina if you use a public domain stuff for commercial you need to pay somethin to the art national organization.. no idea the exact name in english. in spanish it is "fondo nacional de las arter"
<rafa>
artes*
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<wpwrak>
wow. they killed public domain ? brilliant concept :)
<rafa>
kristianpaul: but I guess that it should be some public domain stuff from argentina
<rafa>
kristianpaul: well, it is not clear.. maybe they just want people to pay
<rafa>
:P
<wpwrak>
rafa: like with any other taxes ;-)
<rafa>
wpwrak: yeah.. better for them if it is not clear
<rafa>
so they can get money for anything
<calamarz>
wpwrak: re. debian speed, I still have to measure boot time and whatnot, but I don't have the feeling it's slow. maybe because I didn't try openwrt/jlime..
<calamarz>
but in general quite happy with its responsiveness, specially since I disabled console-setup and stayed with in-kernel fonts
<calamarz>
matchbox is a bit slow to load, but once there it behaves pretty well (using fbreder on X from time to time)
<wpwrak>
calamarz: the swap requirements are a bit scary. and swap usually means slowness ... but well, as long as it doesn't feel slow, nobody cares how much slower it is than it could theoretically be :)
<wpwrak>
hmmm. cable assembly with antenna and cable assembly without antenna (just ending in open U.FL connector) = almost the same signal strength. i don't like that.
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: X-D
<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: btw you noticed we ( paul fertser, me) "finished" on N900 hostmode?
<DocScrutinizer>
teaching Nokia what's possible with their hw :-P They always claimed it's not feasible
<DocScrutinizer>
mentorgfx musb-core a bitch, so everything is a bit clumsy still. But basically it 'just works'
<DocScrutinizer>
o/
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: oh, sounds cool. why did they claim it wasn't possible ?
<DocScrutinizer>
they messed up everything you could
<wpwrak>
hmm, now that sounds vaguely familiar ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
musb-core has a statemachine. this SM changes to hostmode/A_device on a msg from PHY via ULPI. This msg is sent by PHY when it detects ID pin is gnd. Alas our PHY isn't connected to ID pin
<DocScrutinizer>
they also didn't bother to connect the PHY chip pin ID_IN to a GPIO or sth, they hardwired it to ID state B
<wpwrak>
so you had to override the state machine ?
<DocScrutinizer>
they missed a capacitor for USB VBUS chargepump in PMU
<DocScrutinizer>
yep
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
so you added a cap ?
<DocScrutinizer>
nope, I found the charger chip has a boost mode :-D
<DocScrutinizer>
charging reversed :-P
<wpwrak>
oh :)
<DocScrutinizer>
you 'just' need to understand how to play your game with that chip, while fouling the Nokia closed blob BME battery management entity that likes to keep full control over the charger
<wpwrak>
nice platform :)
<wpwrak>
and in the next version, if nokia is still around to make one, it will all be different :)
<DocScrutinizer>
sure
<DocScrutinizer>
it will be friggin meego then
<DocScrutinizer>
though I heard they keep bme for meego :-P
<DocScrutinizer>
*cough*
<wpwrak>
"if everyone hates it, it must be good" :)
<DocScrutinizer>
most secret magic IP about how to charge a LiIon CC/CV X-P
<wpwrak>
i'm sure they greatly advanced the state of the art ;-)
<DocScrutinizer>
while not getting the fact it's actually bq24150 charger chip that does all that
<DocScrutinizer>
the mean part about that is they don't even publish API/ABI specs, so NFC how to manage e.g 911 calls mustn't shut down on bat low, or may proceed even on overtemp. Also no idea how to tell it does proper shutdown, overtemp throttling, and whatnot in a normal situation
<DocScrutinizer>
sure we can go brute force, and shutdown hard on OT / UV
<DocScrutinizer>
but we don't even receive a single word about where OT starts, from Nokia
<DocScrutinizer>
if they would tell us, they might get sued when we manage to kill ourselves in a LiIon explosion  X-P
<DocScrutinizer>
lawyers - MEH
<DocScrutinizer>
well, cya
<wpwrak>
hmm, seems that one of my antennas doesn't work. the other just looks weird. good that i made a pair of them. let's see how this continues ...
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer: (lawyers) ah yes, the dark side of liability ... cya
<wpwrak>
(liability) if there was a device that would eliminate all car accidents caused by the driver but would fail in a way that causes an accident at 1% of the current accident rate, that device would not get deployed because the company making the device would be liable for those accidents, which would be particularly disastrous in countries aligned with US laws. better to have 100x the number of fatalities etc. but someone else who has to
<wpwrak>
(antennas) refant is one of the usual 2.45 GHz WiFi antennas. ant-120B and ant-120B are the atusb/atusd antenna but 20% larger, in slightly different positions. ant-none is the same setup, with the antenna disconnected. ant-120A is another 120% antenna (identical design). still some way to go ...
<wpwrak>
emeb: solution: just outsource sawing to a place where fingers are cheap ;-)
<emeb>
and safety laws non-existent...
<wpwrak>
that usually goes hand in hand :)
<emeb>
not an issue for big business, but kind of a show-stopper for small guys & hobbyists.
<emeb>
but then we're all better off just sitting on the sofa watching TV - that's safer than having a hobby. :)
<wpwrak>
well, as a hobbyist you can use whatever unsafe saw you choose :)
<emeb>
wpwrak: not if the mfg can only sell 'safe' saws at a substantially increased price.
<wpwrak>
ebay :)
<emeb>
junkyards!
<wpwrak>
synonyms ! :)
<emeb>
lol
<emeb>
I'll just play with computers.
<emeb>
gets back OT
<calamarz>
wow... I got to have netsurf running on nn on framebuffer... awesome indeed X-D
<calamarz>
taking shot as soon as I come to terms with fbgrab :p
<xiangfu>
calamarz: I am try to create the openwrt package of netsurf.
<xiangfu>
calamarz: did you create the openwrt package already?
<calamarz>
xiangfu: no, I compiled it on debian
<calamarz>
a hell bunch of libs btw
<xiangfu>
calamarz: ok
<xiangfu>
calamarz: I am working on the openwrt side :)
<DocScrutinizer>
well, my hobbies I mustn't even tell about
<calamarz>
xiangfu: I had to turn -Werror off on a couple of places btw
<calamarz>
xiangfu: you'll have to package most of the libs on the top of that page too... can also disable some options on Makefile.config
<calamarz>
man this thing is awesome: html5, svg... and even js on a couple of releases :) how could we miss that for so long?
<wolfspraul>
calamarz: sorry I stole the news of your file upload before your post :-)
<wolfspraul>
I didn't realize you had _just_ uploaded the file...
<calamarz>
hehe... wolfspraul: I was also thinking about wiki reader
<calamarz>
I only have to find a 12 or 16 Gb microsd... full english wikipedia dump is 6.4Gb, plus +3Gb of xapian indexes... I have to find my way thru the bisonparser for wiki markup...
<wolfspraul>
calamarz: it's a long story :-)
<wolfspraul>
things to consider are tables, images, special characters (unicode) including math symbols
<wolfspraul>
Wikimedia Foundation provides nice XML dump files, and being able to reuse them is a big win because we are talking about gigabyes and gigabytes of constantly changing data
<wolfspraul>
then there is zim, which first renders the xml (mediawiki markup) into html
<wolfspraul>
but last time I checked, wmf support for zim was still mostly lip service
<wolfspraul>
that is there are very few zim files around, maybe it got better now
<wolfspraul>
and even then the problem is a nice zim reader that runs snappy on 32mb ram etc.
<wolfspraul>
finally, some practical problems like how to deal with links, and how to have a really great search engine, full index of all words maybe?
<wolfspraul>
also, I am thinking more and more that a small subset might make more sense, I'm thinking about 'math'
<wolfspraul>
so one could imagine a script that is given some category names, and then fetches all articles in those categories
<calamarz>
full index will take too much space, I'm afraid..
<calamarz>
yep, that "sets" is promising... I think you can do it in the export features in mediawiki, right?
<wolfspraul>
the amount of data would be much less, so making a reader that is good (fast) on all these things like images, index, etc. is easier
<wolfspraul>
ah yes, good idea
<wolfspraul>
or you can just crawl through the pages
<wolfspraul>
well it's all just ideas, lots of work and I hesitate to start a development effort that will collapse under its weight
<wolfspraul>
abandonware
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
must be something super maintainable that reuses as much as possible of other free efforts
<calamarz>
what I didn't like about the zim project was the reader of their own
<wolfspraul>
for embedded images, there is another problem with the licenses
<wolfspraul>
that's why wmf does not offer images included
<wolfspraul>
the standardization of licenses in images is too weak, so there are many exceptions for this and that picture or use case
<wolfspraul>
so embedding pictures only works with a lot of manual work (fetching yourself), and at your own risk too because you may accidentally trample over some of the restrictions that are listed in the metadata
<wolfspraul>
so that's about everything I know we need to consider :-)
<calamarz>
I think something more unix-like could be much more powerful... I was thinking about doing some simple experiment with a modified micro_httpd and text only mode...
<wolfspraul>
yes of course, sounds good!
<wolfspraul>
I'm also for simple bottom-up approach
<calamarz>
so images looks hard... but having only text + latex rendering would be great
<wolfspraul>
as for zim, well sure there are things one might like or not like. but if it's an active project and they get things to work, more power to them.
<wolfspraul>
I haven't checked in a while though, like I said last time I felt a little unfortunate that I think the WMF was not really honest with them.
<wolfspraul>
the reality is that the WMF does not support offline efforts because offline also means they (the wmf) is disconnected from potential donors
<wolfspraul>
and they don't like that :-)
<wolfspraul>
they have quite a few hungry mouths to feed nowadays :-)
<wolfspraul>
so zim is in this state of great lip-service support, little action (from the wmf)
<calamarz>
yep... this morning I was thinking wikipedia has grown too much to be manageable grassroots-like...
<wolfspraul>
but then I did see some zim files recently, maybe they have managed to start some server processes to crunch data
<wolfspraul>
that would be very helpful
<wolfspraul>
at these sizes of data, we need to consider even the data itself as a given, and valuable
<wolfspraul>
because once you start dealing with/downloading/formatting millions of articles and dozens of languages, it becomes an effort not very dissimilar from say the Linux kernel or so :-)
<wolfspraul>
so when I see a nice large file like a dump or a zim file, and I know there are people maintaining and updating these files, I think about a way to reuse those files as is, without touching the innards of the files
<wolfspraul>
so yeah, if we can do a unix text-only approach that is still fast, why not
<wolfspraul>
maybe you take a wmf xml dump file, and you generate some kind of index into it
<wolfspraul>
then have a console app that allows you to lookup and extract articles from it
<calamarz>
that was does the guy in the tutorial I pasted
<wolfspraul>
calamarz: you think that project stands out?
<calamarz>
he indexes with xapian inside of the bzip files
<wolfspraul>
I know there are some efforts like that, but everytime we looked closer, we found some big showstoppers.
<calamarz>
sure
<wolfspraul>
like huge memory use, very slow, etc.
<calamarz>
yeah, I did not try yet on the nn, but the parser in the example is using php... we should find a way of reusing some c/c++ parser to turn the xml chunks into html
<calamarz>
was thinking about doing some quick and dirty trick like getting the article from the local url, extract xml from the bzip file, process and redirect to the parser output...
<wolfspraul>
well any insights, experiments, progress you can make along these lines would be very appreciated
<calamarz>
one of the limitations is this indexing takes only titles (that's the +3Gb for the full dump)
<wolfspraul>
I'm just reading the page now, I am sure someone looked into this earlier but then gave up for some reason
<wolfspraul>
but now that the overall image, system, software etc is getting better and better maybe we are ready to look back at this :-)
<calamarz>
I should get a bigger microsd in a few days... and then will spend a weekend tinkering, will share my outputs for sure :)
<wolfspraul>
speaking about big microsds, I think nobody tried 32gb cards yet
<wolfspraul>
they exist now, but quite expensive so last time I decided to not buy one and wait a little instead...
<wolfspraul>
something like 80 USD in China, I think
<wolfspra1l>
rafa: the socrate picture is 'free' as in the wikimedia foundation definition
<wolfspra1l>
in fact it's from their servers
<wolfspra1l>
as far as I'm concerned, I am following the wmf on those matters
<wolfspra1l>
no -nd, no -nc, no fair use
<wolfspra1l>
but everything else: yes, is 'free'
<wolfspra1l>
there are huge amounts of free content, especially old stuff like literature, music (recording needs to be free as well), paintings etc.
<wolfspra1l>
entire photograph libraries being donated to Wikimedia Commons
<wolfspra1l>
I fully intend to use this stuff on copyleft hardware, either with good viewing software, or make it downloadable, or bundle it right away, even to only fill the storage space the device comes with anyway
<wolfspra1l>
now, if some countries restrict the concept of 'public domain', or any other restriction or taxation of 'free', then still first of all I will follow what the WMF does
<wolfspra1l>
it's a good baseline to follow I think, a baseline upon which to build exceptions
<wolfspra1l>
OpenWrt proper boots into a home screen that greets you with a recipe for an alcoholic drink
<wolfspra1l>
I am sure if you read the law well enough, that you would have problem with this kind of thing in Saudi Arabia, UAE, and who knows where else
<wpwrak>
i rather like that bit :)
<wolfspra1l>
let's not even get into the extremely differing definitions of 'pornography'
<wolfspra1l>
the WMF has had their share of heat already over that...
<wolfspra1l>
so if you are telling me that Argentina has special rules if money is made with 'public domain artworks', well, fine
<wolfspra1l>
I wait until the case becomes real, for now I just follow wmf freedom baseline :-)
<wolfspra1l>
and I cannot imagine that such law would apply to the NanoNote, it's similar to the patents I think where if you go around and read read read, worry worry worry, you will always find a reason to see a threat
<wolfspra1l>
but in reality these things are written, meant and applied to very specific cases
<wolfspra1l>
where someone thinks money can easily be made :-)