<kyak> when compiling kernel on Ben, it throws out-of memory errors (gcc is killed) - though i have swap enabled. With qemu, however, the kernel built just fine
<DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: watch the holes!! that's nifty antenna design ;-D http://www.engadget.com/photos/nokias-qwerty-slidin-n9-shows-up-in-the-wilds-of-china/#3277333
<viric> wpwrak: minicom is a bit obsolete... I usually use 'cu' from uucp, much newer. :)   Sometimes it fails to disable ctrcts, and I have to run that manually with stty... but it works fine for me. I prefer programs not to do any vt emulation - I already have a vt compatible xterm for that!
<LunaVorax> Hi everyone !
<LunaVorax> Is there any possible hack for the Ben Nanonote to support video out/vga out ?
<wolfspraul> LunaVorax: I doubt it
<kyak> i'm not sure about the possibility of such hardware hack. However, it can might be done in software (with vnc server?)
<kyak> "can might", yes :)
<kyak> LunaVorax: what is your intention anyway?
<LunaVorax> kyak, connecting the nanonote to a screen or a tv
<LunaVorax> But no, no vnc
<LunaVorax> I'm working on a open arcade machine (not emulation but a platform to develop games on)
<LunaVorax> So I was wondering if the nanonote could handle video out
<kyak> yeah, i understand about the tv connection. but why?
<LunaVorax> I guess I'll have to wait for the nanonote2 (can't remember the name of it)
<wolfspraul> Ya!
<LunaVorax> Haha
<LunaVorax> I just need a device with internet connection + video/audio out + storage
<LunaVorax> Or using a milkymist ?
<LunaVorax> I dunno
<kyak> btw, i'm considering a TV with Ethernet/WiFi
<LunaVorax> kyak, what do you mean ?
<kyak> i mean, i don't want to connect  my laptop to TV with cables to watch movies :)
<viric> kyak: you prefer microwaves all around? :)
<viric> they can't be bad - they are invisible
<kyak> viric:  they are already around us, with me or without me :)
<LunaVorax> Haha viric :D
<LunaVorax> Must go guys, see you
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: (sdl/gnuplot) sdl is really easy. of course, in cases where good old gnuplot will do, that's even easier :)
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: (antenna) erm, where/what is it ? ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: a helix printed on plastic, a coil
<wpwrak> viric: (minicom) yeah, i don't particularly like that whole "terminal emulation" and "pop-up config menu" thing either. most of the time it just gets in the way. cu is great :)
<DocScrutinizer> an antenna
<DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: closely look at the right uppermost and bottom mounting screw holes
<DocScrutinizer> next to the golden printed antenna strips
<viric> wpwrak: the terminal emulation often works worse than it should. For example, it has the default of not line wrap!
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: oh. the stuff that looks like sidewalls reflecting the light. interesting :) can we abduct of or two neurons of the engineer who did that ? :)
<wpwrak> viric: that was exactly what i was thinking of, too ;-))
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: quite impressive indeed
<DocScrutinizer> indeed, and probably a good antenna design as well
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: heh, would be ironic if it was just for show ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> haha
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: but i guess apple has all the patents on that :)
<wpwrak> flashy antennas that don't work :)
<DocScrutinizer> gnhnhnhn
<DocScrutinizer> well, looks like a proper shortened lamba/4 with footpoint L
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer:  it looks like cheating physics ;-)
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer:  fold not only i two but in three dimensions
<wpwrak> s/i/in/
<DocScrutinizer> hehe
<DocScrutinizer> well, Nokia seems always knew their RF stuff
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: yup. nokia and apple should merge. rf from nokia, marketing from apple. instant world domination :)
<DocScrutinizer> OMG
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: of course, considering how mergers often go, it would probably be RF from apple with nokia marketing ...
<DocScrutinizer> flees to another planet
<DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: this latter one almost could compete with OM then
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: in 2014, some bored and unhappy engineers from both camps will secretly build a time machine.
<DocScrutinizer> will resemble that antenna design, I bet
<roh> yes. the milkymist mechanical prototype board arrived
<wpwrak> roh: will you try the same kind of design as before ?
<roh> dunno yet. i guess so. but this time using a mill and acryllic
<roh> got a blue-transparent 3mm sheet
<roh> i guess i could sell some later, when i can 'do more' and the process works
<roh> but i dunno if there would be demand for such stuff. any ideas?
<wpwrak> (milled acrylic) sound good.
<wpwrak> (demand) for MM1 boxes or boxes in different shapes based on the same design ?
<roh> lasered for the most part. only the notch would be milled
<roh> demand as in 'would somebody buy these at all' ;)
<wpwrak> would you laser and mill the same part or laser-only the sidewalls and mill-only the top/bottom plates ?
<lekernel__> roh: we would definitely include them at least with the first low-volume boards
<roh> i think i would laser the outlines of all parts and only mill the groove to keep cost down
<wpwrak> (buy) i think MM1 needs a case and they don't have anything else, so ...:) of course, they have to like yours. i guess it's too early to tell whether the mechanical side will be okay
<wpwrak> ah, there's the answer :)
<wpwrak> roh: (mix mill and laser) ah, interesting. i would have thought moving parts from one machine to the other, along with realignment, would be more work
<lekernel__> roh: if they're ready in time, maybe even with the very first boards (the series of 35 we're manufacturing atm)
<wpwrak> of course, cutting through to the bottom can be a bit tricky with a mill
<lekernel__> roh: how expensive is that acrylic btw?
<roh> sure. i would need to build some kind of 'alignment helper' then
<roh> lekernel__ the material isnt the expensive part. i think the plasic is only a few euros (<10 or so)
<lekernel__> per case?
<roh> the most cost comes from machines and labour
<roh> sure
<lekernel__> damn, that's expensive plastic!
<wpwrak> acrylic is expensive :)
<lekernel__> can ABS be used instead?
<lekernel__> if a small case is ~10 euros of plastic, I wonder how manufacturers of, say, big TV sets that sell for 100¬ could break even
<lekernel__> or is it just that raw materials bought in small shops in Europe carry a big profit margin for them?
<wpwrak> lekernel__: (cheaper cases) they don't use acrylic :)
<lekernel__> yeah, they use ABS instead... can't it work in the laser cutter?
<roh> lekernel__ i think the acryllic itself is about 7 euros or so, but i have to get it or let it be shipped. still not the issue. lasering takes atleast 15minutes + manual work
<roh> and i havent gotten any labels on it yet.
<roh> lekernel__ i havent gotten results with abs yet. i guess its more difficult to laser (different melting/vaporisations behaviour)
<wpwrak> roh: so it would be "save EUR 5/box on materials, blow EUR 100/box on R&D" :)
<roh> heh. if i would account for my time at the lowest usual rate, sure.
<roh> is there some 'official label per socket' already or do i need to 'find something fitting' myself?
<roh> e.g. rather 'LAN' or 'lan' .. or 'ethernet' .. or 'Ethernet' ?
<roh> .oO(where can i find the logo as vector art?)
<wpwrak> roh: or just take a dremel and do some action painting ;-)
<lekernel__> roh: i'll mail you
<lekernel__> there's no logo as vector art yet (unfortunately)
<lekernel__> roh: mailed
<roh> i got 'DC 5V IN' on the pwr socket now.
<roh> somehow i like having atleast a voltage label on 'things' ;) .. its + in the middle?
<lekernel__> yes
<lekernel__> you can also write +/-5% if you want to insist on that
<lekernel__> that's what the PCB silkscreen already says, but printing on the silkscreen is for free :)
<roh> hrhr
<lekernel__> (rc2, not the rc1 you have)
<roh> ah. was wondering
<roh> anything different besides that (mechanically)
<lekernel__> holes are 3.3mm instead of 3mm, but apart from that it's all the same
<roh> ok :)
<roh> power is really the middle button?
<roh> sw2
<lekernel__> yes, you don't like it?
<lekernel__> it doesn't power off if you press it again btw
<roh> hihi
<roh> dunno. just found it unobvious
<lekernel__> (and changing it isn't complicated either, it's only a matter of re-flashing)
<lekernel__> worst case I can make it power up on any button press :)
<roh> so i write ' '3  2 1' above the buttons?
<lekernel__> mh
<roh> and render  on   standby in vertical where the led hole was
<lekernel__> I would prefer '1 2 3', but we named the buttons on the PCB in the opposite order
<roh> :)
<lekernel__> maybe write nothing at all...
<roh> i'll do that.
<lekernel__> or 'A B C'
<roh> maybe we can find some button-caps in 3 colors ;)
<lekernel__> ah, yes, good idea!
<lekernel__> I prefer that :)
<roh> should i label the leds then?
<lekernel__> yeah, label the leds
<roh> hm.  yes. rotated 60° to the right
<wolfspraul> kyak: you there?
<wolfspraul> I was wondering which of the graphical toolkits on the Ben would have the lowest resource usage now
<wolfspraul> we can probably assume GTK and Qt are rather heavy
<wolfspraul> so that leaves SDL, libdirectfb, linuxfb?
<wolfspraul> is linuxfb just a /dev node, or also a library?
<wolfspraul> which one is the thinnest/lightest?
<lekernel__> wolfspraul: there's also MTK, but there are no applications using it except mine :)
<wolfspraul> MTK?
<lekernel__> it's by far the lightest
<wolfspraul> Milkymist Toolkit?
<lekernel__> yes, toolkit used by flickernoise
<lekernel__> based on genode fx
<wolfspraul> how does it draw?
<wolfspraul> would it run on Linux?
<wolfspraul> (the kernel)
<lekernel__> just pass it a raw framebuffer
<lekernel__> definitely, it's ANSI C without any special system call
<lekernel__> one could probably port it to linux in 20 minutes, unlike X :)
<lekernel__> but it lacks some type of server so several processes can use it at the same time
<lekernel__> the original Genode toolkit had it, but I stripped it out as I didn't need it
<wolfspraul> hmm
<wolfspraul> OK
<wolfspraul> interesting, thanks!
<lekernel__> unfortunately, the Genode GUI stuff has been pretty unmaintained for 6 years
<wolfspraul> I would still like to understand the differences between SDL & libdirectfb, or linuxfb, but if porting mtk is easy, why not :-)
<lekernel__> so I just forked it, and implemented the stuff I needed and removed that I didn't
<wolfspraul> sure
<wolfspraul> software doesn't age, especially not if it's well documented and builds upon good long-term base technologies
<lekernel__> porting it is trivial, I got it running on x86 linux, lm32 linux, lm32 rtems and lm32 bare metal
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: perhaps you should first specify what you expect the toolkit to do :) e.g., should it have functions to draw pixels, lines, etc. ? do you expect text ? maybe even buttons and such ? windows ? ...
<lekernel__> mtk has those, and more :)
<lekernel__> i'll try to post a flickernoise video this friday
<lekernel__> (and f**k embedded X11 :))
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: sure I know :-) I'm just lazy. I guess I don't want it to do much.
<wolfspraul> 320x240 pixel screen
<lekernel__> it needs a mouse, though
<wolfspraul> I'm thinking about the launcher. something much smaller than gmenu2x, just a few icons on the screen, done. (ok, wallpaper support :-))
<lekernel__> MTK has wallpaper support :)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: if you want the pure minimum, SDL may be for you. it gives you the naked frame buffer and a mapping of color. that's it. all the rest is you calculating pointers from coordinates, writing color bit patterns into the frame buffer, and finally telling SDL to display it.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: hmm, if it's just a matrix of icons, that may indeed work. (SDL has libraries that build on top of it, so you can get fancy things like lines :)
<wolfspraul> maybe I could write my 'icons only' launcher with pygame then
<wolfspraul> I read somewhere pygame can interface with SDL.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, this is and SDL program: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/tmp/good-font.png
<wpwrak> (SDL + SDL_gfx, for line drawing)
<roh> hm. need more acrylic *sigh*
<wpwrak> roh: you should switch to HDPE :)
<wolfspraul> roh: btw, I have no problem with wood either, not at all actually. From the distance I don't know what the advantages of acrylic are. There must be some I guess.
<wolfspraul> lekernel__ mentioned the wood case is not stable and not strong enough, that would be important.
<lekernel__> roh: btw if you're using acrylic, maybe we can get rid of the little window for the LEDs?
<wpwrak> i would think that the instability is mainly caused by the way the top and bottom plates are held together
<roh> lekernel__ i already removed the ir and the led holes
<wpwrak> impact and pressure resistance of acrylic should be considerably better than for thin sheets of wood. there's also the question of making it look nice. you can of course paint the wood, but that's extra work, too.
<lekernel__> imo it would look better, and prevent dust collection
<lekernel__> ok, we need to check if IR rays can still go through
<wpwrak> lekernel__: (dust) you mean compared to untreated wood ?
<roh> i tested it with a ir remote and a dvb reciever
<roh> even the 'opaque' to visible light stuff works reasonablsy well
<lekernel__> wpwrak: no, I just mean dust going into the LED/IR window
<roh> i found one which is called 'Plexiglas truLED(R)' which is really nice
<wpwrak> lekernel__: ah yes, just an opening wouldn't be so nice
<roh> the whole box would be ir transparent
<qbject> Morning, folks!
<wolfspraul> qbject: morning, but logging out (late at night here :-))
<wolfspraul> I'll read the backlog tomorrow...
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: (good-font.png) woa nice drawing
<kristianpaul> lekernel__: about mtk, do you save some screenshots and features, may be starting with primitives?
<kristianpaul> morning qbject
<kristianpaul> lekernel__: (ABS)dunno is for laser cutter, you need starting protyiping later send it to plastic mold injection as far as i know
<kristianpaul> wood will be ok just for starting, all people start with it
<kristianpaul> (wolfspraul would still like to understand the differences between SDL & libdirectfb, or linuxfb) mee too
<lekernel__> kristianpaul: only one screenshot atm, feel free to make more e.g. using qemu + flickernoise
<lekernel__> I'm busy with coding and have limited time for screenshots
<kristianpaul> sure
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: HDPE -> cool for small and accurate stuff, not sure hwo good for cases, afaik i dint got HPDE to test on my machine :/
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: don't really know either. but it's available in abundance at your next supermarket ;-)
<viric> I'm getting hands on the nanonote again
<viric> I want it to boot the rootfs I told it to :)
<viric> Wa! Removing the console=ttyS0, my rootfs boots fine!
<viric> +10 points!
<viric> wpwrak: do you know how to halt the nanonote? busybox 'halt' does not seem to do anything special
<wpwrak> /sbin/halt -fp  perhaps ?
<viric> it does not know 'p'
<wpwrak> has the desired effect on jlime
<viric> but for '-f', it says System halted.
<viric> hm
<wpwrak> and. is it halted ? :)
<viric> there is echo on the screen :)
<viric> it's not turned off, and there is echo on keys pressed
<wpwrak> on jlime: ls -l /sbin/halt
<wpwrak> /sbin/halt -> halt.sysvinit
<viric> ah, it's sysvinit
<viric> I use busybox.
<wpwrak> just another busyboxism, i guess
<viric> hm
<viric> it does not look like so. it looks like a workaround not to call busybox, but sysvinit's halt
<viric> I'll download such a jlime
<wpwrak> no, i mean that busybox doesn't implement this the right way or at least not in a way that fits with the rest of the system
<viric> wpwrak: right. '-p' was for power off?
<wpwrak> jlime's /sbin/halt is clearly meant not to be busybox :)
<wpwrak> yup
<viric> ok
<viric> I'll spy them
<viric> i'll try to boot it in qemu
<wpwrak> traditionally, halt just tells init to shut down. so that interaction has to be right. not sure if -fp also goes via init or if halt does it all locally
<viric> well I'm using busybox init. :)
<wpwrak> yeah, busybox ... it's just that sort of things you have to deal with when using it
<viric> I'll switch from that
<viric> but that's something minimal to start from
<wpwrak> it's nice if you have a simple fixed-feature set device. but for something more like a laptop, i find the whole concept very dubious
<viric> I may use upstart.
<wpwrak> yeah, it's a start ... :)
<viric> ouch, upstart uses dbus.
<wpwrak> well, it could use .NET ... ;-)
<viric> is .NET big?
<viric> isn't it popular in embedded devices?
<viric> well, quite powerful as the nanonote I mean
<viric> I wonder the difference in 'halt'...  in qemu malta, busybox halt works fine
<viric> what is the trick to make a login without asking any password?
<wpwrak> touch /etc/shadow; passwd
<wpwrak> [Enter][Enter]
<wpwrak> oh wait. it still asks
<viric> :)
<wpwrak> that was empty password
<viric> it is not bad
<wpwrak> for no password you have to copy your public key over
<viric> what public key?
<wpwrak> naturally, dropbear doesn't accept the same location customary with openssh
<wpwrak> yur ssh key. oh, you mean login by some other means ?
<viric> screen login
<viric> :)
<viric> I'm still at an early stage, wpwrak! :)
<wpwrak> uh, dunno how it works there. some systems just let you in if there's no password in /etc/shadow or /etc/passwd
<viric> I just wrote some inittab.
<viric> wpwrak: got it! nothing between the colons in /etc/passwd, for the password field.
<wpwrak> yep, no password :)
<viric> mine already runs a boot script and logs in :) super
<viric> does someone remember where to get a good keymap for loadkeys?
<viric> great!
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: (supermaker) in 3mm filament roll?
<kristianpaul> supermarket*
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: yes i think you should add this blog to the planet, at least the gnuradio tag
<qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add qc icon in gmenu2x http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/9d51ca6
<kristianpaul> 7win 14
<wolfspraul> 7 != /
<xiangfu> wolfspraul: Hi the qtdemo at "/usr/share/Qt/demos"
<xiangfu> wolfspraul: each folder have one execute binary file.
<xiangfu> downloading the 1123 images.
<wolfspraul> hmm, the README files in that folder mentions a 'qtdemo' launcher for all demos and examples
<xiangfu> wolfspraul: the feeds/packages/Xorg/lib/qt4/Makefile shows that 'qtdemo' not install
<xiangfu> there is a folder name "qtdemo" under '...qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.0/demos' but it not compiled
<xiangfu> from the "makefile" of Qt4. it only install files to /usr/lib/. none of /usr/bin/
<wolfspraul> hmm, if qtdemo would work well on the NanoNote, maybe we should include it?
<xiangfu> there are 35 folder under the '...qt-everywhere-opensource-src-4.7.0/demos' (I guess each one is a demo)
<xiangfu> but only 16 of them install in NanoNote.
<xiangfu> s/35/25
<xiangfu> from the "makefile" we have pass "-make demos" to configure. so we better ask Mirko. sine he know more about Qt.
<xiangfu> but I think 16 demos is enough :)
<wolfspraul> I tried one of them, gave a lot of errors and finally a segfault.
<xiangfu> wolfspraul: I only tried the 'testedit'
<wolfspraul> and the 'qtdemo' launcher is missing, that's probably nice to quickly go through them
<xiangfu> wolfspraul: hmm.. I will try find out why 'qtdemo' not install  later .
<wolfspraul> sure, not urgent
<kristianpaul> wolfspra1l: fprintf(stderr, ":-(\n");
<kristianpaul> oops
<kristianpaul> it was for wpwrak:
<xakh> hi! Anyone know how to load up Doom, Quake, and Powder on the most current version of the Nano?
<xakh> xiangfu: ping
<xakh> .... anyone here?
<xiangfu> xakh: Hi. I think just download the copy them to NanoNote
<xakh> alright, cool.
<xiangfu> xakh: there is one page in wiki. let me search
<xakh> I used to hang out here a lot in july, you guys probably don't remember me at this point.
<xakh> I've had it since then, and basically used it as a free software gaming handheld, blew people away with it too
<wolfspraul> nice, we are trying to get more games on it
<wolfspraul> so far I only played worm :-)
<xakh> also, anyone have the ipk files for leafpad and netsurf
<wolfspraul> 342 points...
<wolfspraul> I am optimistic at some point love2d should work well, bartbes is on it
<xakh> thanks!
<xakh> how about Powder?
<xakh> xiangfu: I remember either you or Tuxbrain were big fans of powder, and now I can't find that cache of weird games I installed on here.
<xiangfu> xakh: not me :(
<xakh> dang
<xakh> oh hey! I found Powder in Zear's folder!
<xakh> Zear was who I was looking for.
<xakh> it's been about 5 months since I was here last, sorry for the confusion
<xakh> so, what have you guys been up to since July?
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: (plastic) naw, in thin sheets (bags). you can melt them down to whatever shape. filaments may be tricky, though :)
<xakh> ????
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: (":-(\n") a self-explaining error message :)
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: yeah :)
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: woah!  you write own code for digits, you are close to have own lib for X11 alternative ;-)
<qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: config.full_system: add netsurf, add Internet group http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-xburst/73829d1
<xiangfu> xakh ^ hope you read log :)
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: (digits) yeah ;-) that was mainly because i need a very small font. and the text-drawing functions of SDL_gfx didn't want to work :)