<wpwrak>
(connector) hmm the first question would be what choices you actually have. e.g., is whatever connects to already given ?
<wpwrak>
if 2 mm is inconvenient, also splitting it into two connectors could be an option. it all depends on what it is for. e.g., for daughterboards, two connectors would be much better than just one. for other things, no.
<wpwrak>
i don't know much about 2 mm header sizes, but the dimensions don't look insane :) (not excessively small, for instance)
<kyak>
rafa: i have some problems installing any package on Jlime
<kyak>
Collected errors: * pkg_get_installed_files: fopen(//usr/lib/opkg/info/pam-plugin-exec.list): No such file or directory
<kyak>
* pkg_get_installed_files: fopen(//usr/lib/opkg/info/libxmu6.list): No such file or directory
<kyak>
do you know what could be the problem?
<kyak>
(want to compare build speed under Jlime and OpenWRT)
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: the first batch of USB IDs made it into usb.ids, I submitted the next 2 today
<wolfspraul>
thanks for pushing me on this a bit :-) sometimes I'm a bit slow to get up to speed on things.
<wolfspraul>
next I need to look into this whole Ethernet MAC thing
<B_Lizzard>
Hi, is there anyone here that can help me with compiling nupdf?
<B_Lizzard>
I'm getting undefined references to functions which are not in mupdf
<B_Lizzard>
pdf_droppage, for instance
<B_Lizzard>
I suspect those are old functions which are not in mupdf 0.7.0
<B_Lizzard>
Yeah, OK
<B_Lizzard>
The functions are in mupdf 0.6
<kyak>
B_Lizzard: the nupdf was written with older mupdf version in mind
<B_Lizzard>
I'm looking at the differences and will probably make a patch if all goes well
<kyak>
therefore nupdf is not compiled now.. i've contacted the author, but it seems that he doesn't have a lot of time/interest
<B_Lizzard>
I made a bug report on the google code page
<kyak>
anyway, the good news is that all requirements for nupdf are ported to openwrt
<B_Lizzard>
You mean the libraries?
<kyak>
now only need the patch for nupdf you are talking about :)
<kyak>
yes, the libaries
<kyak>
B_Lizzard: if you sucess, that would be super great
<B_Lizzard>
Apparently, pdf_droppage became pdf_freepage
<B_Lizzard>
So at least I'm on the right track
<kyak>
there are some other changes you are going to see
<kyak>
seems that mupdf library has changed a lot
<kyak>
B_Lizzard: so, are you using the mupdf and other libs from openwrt-packages?
<kyak>
(just to make sure you are not doing double work porting dependencies for nupdf)
<B_Lizzard>
No, I work on jlime
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (usb) great, congratulations ! :) with the next spin of linux distros, lsusb will then proudly announce it when it finds qi-hw any devices
<B_Lizzard>
But the work done should be useful for all
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (mac) yup. wpan will probably need a company_id for the MACs.
<kyak>
B_Lizzard: indeed.. if you get it right, please let me know.. i will port to to openwrt then
<B_Lizzard>
Sure thing
<B_Lizzard>
I'm testing it on my pc first, see if it compiles
<wpwrak>
(typos) and as usual, it shows then the first thing i do after rubbing the sleep out of my eyes is IRC ...
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: did you see this 2.00 mm breakout connector thing andres brought up a few hours ago?
<wolfspraul>
he's thinking about a 2*25 2.00 mm pitch connector for xue
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yes. i wrote a few lines about it into the empty channel :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: per se, ther's nothing wrong with 2 mm. it's not as common a 2.54 mm but far from exotic
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: there is of course the question of what it is used for. e.g., if you want to connect to arbitrary other things of the DIY type, then it's not an ideal choice.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: if it's just some board-to-board connector, why not. may even go smaller.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: if 2.54 mm would be desirable but there's no room, then there's the question whether it has to be one connector or if it could be multiple
<wolfspraul>
well I don't know what Andres or others are thinking, but what comes to my mind is LCM, keyboard, battery controller
<wolfspraul>
I don't even know whether it is theoretically possible, for now I just assume an fpga can do EVERYTHING :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: so it's extensions okay. do they have a specific form factor or placement ? such as parallel to the xue pcb, for instance
<wolfspraul>
no it's far from that, at least in my mind
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: its really hard to say what components fits without some spec :) (like that "we need a cheaper adc". one could frame that one ;-)
<wolfspraul>
more about proof of concept, write software (IC codes)
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
it's called an 'expansion header'
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: ic codes ? you mean verilog ?
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
why not. if it can be driven from software running on top of the softcore, also fine
<wolfspraul>
we have to decide about the expansion connector before knowing exactly what the expansions will be
<wpwrak>
if the expansion header should aim for maximum flexibility for DIY projects, then 2.54 mm is better than 2 mm. it's easier to get connectors and since it's bigger, you can also do some tweaks in a pinch.
<wolfspraul>
yes but maybe too big
<wolfspraul>
the board is nice small, would be a pity to make it bigger only for the expansion connector
<wpwrak>
if the idea is to mount boards in parallel to the xue pcb, you could also have multiple connectors, so you don't have to cram everything on one. e.g., one on each side, so the 2nd board will also have a reasonably good mechanical connection as well
<wolfspraul>
and 2.00 is not as bad as 1.25 or whatever other smaller connectors there are
<wolfspraul>
I think that would eat up far too much space
<wpwrak>
yeah, i've been wondering about that too :-)
<wpwrak>
maybe on the side
<wolfspraul>
speaking about that layout PNG, do you think it's easy to automatically generate something like that from KiCad after committs as well?
<wolfspraul>
those are made with pcbnew, right?
<wpwrak>
hm, good question that one. i've never seen one that looks quite like this. lemme check.
<wpwrak>
looks like the SVG export
<wpwrak>
that may indeed be easier than a postscript export. the PS menu is quite overloaded and you have to change a gazillion options to get something sensible
<wolfspraul>
the relationship is just every .brd file can be plotted into one .svg ?
<wpwrak>
yes
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: there is the man! :-)
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: we are wondering where on the beautiful little Xue even the 2*25 2.00mm connector would fit
<wpwrak>
doesn't include areas, though
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: you read that I said earlier we can include a 'breakout' cable with each board that has that 2*25 connector on one side, and individual ribbon cables (for example) on the other side
<wolfspraul>
would that help?
<wpwrak>
ah, i had not seen that. that may me useful. but it all depends on the use :) if it's just "connect *something*" then that's a nice option
<andres-calderon>
For daughter card, 2 connectors can provide mechanical stability
<wpwrak>
if the rules for connecting stuff are more specific (such as placement etc.), maybe not
<wolfspraul>
well you tell me
<wolfspraul>
I'm the newbie to all this.
<wolfspraul>
I want to hookup lcm, keyboard, battery controller. naive as I am. replace my asus notebook :-)
<wolfspraul>
but more realistically I think there are many targets one could want to hookup there, which I have limited overview over
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: in a pinch, people can also make their own cable :) it's more the case that you need a ton of different little connectors to be compatible with 2 mm that i wouldn't like so mucn
<wolfspraul>
so what's the settlement now, in plain English?
<wolfspraul>
does the Xue board have to get bigger?
<wolfspraul>
which type of connector is preferable
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: it he idea that this will be used for dautherboards or also to connect loosely attached things ? (such an some MCU on a development board on the side)
<wolfspraul>
Andres proposed one, I have no problem with that one
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: relax :)
<wolfspraul>
ok :-)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (svg) it's nice for having an overview. it's not so nice for diffs. for diffs you need a black and white base image and that will probably get too crowded in the svg, with all layers superimposed
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: also, the diff would need to be able to separate the layers. e.g., if you move a trace from top to bottom layer, you'll be able to see that. also, if you add a trace that runs for a long distance above/below one at a different layer, it would be nice if you'd see all of it, not just the entry/exit points.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: so for diffs, i'd want to use something like the postscript output we currently get. or maybe gerber if that's easier. then i could show this layer by layer.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: for a quick overview or just an impression of the project, on the other hand, the svg is wonderful.
<wolfspraul>
ah yes
<wolfspraul>
I didn't think of it for the diffs
<wolfspraul>
there are so many more visualizations, reports, and what not we can generate it's almost scary
<wolfspraul>
we need to pick strictly along the lines of what is actually benefitial
<wolfspraul>
so like you said, the svg is just a nice visualization of the latest state of the board
<wolfspraul>
just a super high-level 'hey look at this' thing
<wpwrak>
yup. present the board in a nice way.
<wolfspraul>
I'm playing with pcbnew a bit right now
<wolfspraul>
it has a nice 3D viewer
<wolfspraul>
'nice' for a non-techie like me on this subject
<wolfspraul>
unfortunately it seems it can only export one particular view/angle into png or jpeg
<wolfspraul>
would be cool if it could export to some widely supported 3D format, which afaik doesn't exist
<wolfspraul>
anyway all just toys...
<wpwrak>
you can export to vrml (in pcbnew)
<wpwrak>
one problem with the 3d viewer is that it needs someone to draw the 3d packages :)
<wolfspraul>
I don't find the vrml output
<wolfspraul>
man vrml... there was such a hype around it. for a while everybody thought web browsing would inevitably become all 3D.
<wolfspraul>
I didn't even know it's still around, reading up on Wikipedia now...
<wpwrak>
well, look at the industry today. 3D video ;-)
<wpwrak>
(vrml output) in pcbnew, under File > Export
<wolfspraul>
I don't have it there
<wolfspraul>
maybe some libs are required? I have Specctra DSN, GenCAD, Module Report
<wolfspraul>
GenCAD == vrml?
<wpwrak>
nono, it says VRML
<wpwrak>
dunno what prerequisites it has, if any. i have version 2010-08-11 bzr 2448
<wpwrak>
(if any) that is, except mandatory ones
<wpwrak>
anyway, gotta run. i have a barbecue to prepare for :)
<wolfspraul>
that software has a non-commercial clause
<wolfspraul>
the best would be some format that could be rendered live in javascript
<wolfspraul>
there seems to be a lot of activity in that direction
<wolfspraul>
so maybe the vrml can be converted into something that can then be rendered via javascript? don't know...
<kristianpaul>
think about vrml free software viewver and got headache
<andres-calderon>
3D rendering is not a great feature... i prefer improved routing tools :)
<rafa>
kyak: does that happen for any package?. If so, maybe the FS broke?.. is it ext2 on sd?. Do you have swap?
<kyak>
rafa: for any package, it is ext2 on sd and swap is enabled
<kyak>
however, it's just a warning..
<kyak>
a package is installed fine
<wolfspraul>
andres-calderon: don't worry, I was just thinking for something like the schhist that we can create automatically from Kicad commits
<wolfspraul>
so that non-tech people have something to click on and play with
<rafa>
kyak: ext2 on sd is a little unstable when you did not have some problems. For example, if you ran out of battery the fs could break easily. The system will do a fsck after at a new boot, but it could sane but not complete or inconsistent
<rafa>
kyak: when you did not have=when you had problems
<kyak>
rafa: i see... i'll try to reinstall then
<rafa>
kyak: if you do then try (having swap) to install the same packages so you can check a bit further which could be the problem.
<kyak>
rafa: i will. thanks!
<rafa>
kyak: you are welcome
<kristianpaul>
heh i realice today why lekernel use the word autocrap :p
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: autotools is what happens when you had a traumatizing youth caused by misunderstood makefiles and diverging APIs, and then you grew up with a strong desire of revenge, not realizing that the origin of all your pain has long disappeared.
<kyak>
:)
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: in my case the issue disappeared but i dont know wht
<kristianpaul>
why*
<kristianpaul>
this not happens all the time, but when hapens....
<kristianpaul>
:)
<kristianpaul>
chroot saves my day :)
<kyak>
wpwrak: but autotools are almost everywhere anyway, and i haven't heard of good alternative :)
<kristianpaul>
finding out how to program his CPLD due the lack of trusty paralle jtag cable and just a buspirate around
<kristianpaul>
kyak: he :) good point
<wpwrak>
kyak: most of the time, a simple makefile will do nicely :) you have things like pkg-config for library dependencies and system APIs all tend to be pretty close to POSIX now, so there's little to worry about
<kristianpaul>
i agree with wpwrak
<wpwrak>
kyak: even more so if your target is linux-specific anyway ;-)
<kristianpaul>
actuallt this sofware i was compiling just move to autotools in devel branch, dont know why..
<kyak>
me too would prefer to go with a simple Makefile
<kristianpaul>
agree
<andres-calderon>
wpwrak a question about IDBG,  Do You think it's a good idea to use IDBG to program an FPGA (XILINX S6)?
<kristianpaul>
andres-calderon: you fpga is same as milkymsit?
<andres-calderon>
ok, but I'm currently interested in the  IDBG board ... We have experience with the FTDI chip, but I'm interested in using the 8051, used by Werner
<kristianpaul>
ahh
<kristianpaul>
well is up to you then :)
<andres-calderon>
FTDI is very expensive, and the 8051 has ADCs inputs
<kristianpaul>
(but please no more closed sources chips !!)
<kristianpaul>
andres-calderon: very??
<kristianpaul>
7~ usd is not so expensive, considering you got jtag and uart
<kristianpaul>
just talking about the chip
<andres-calderon>
very expensive...
<andres-calderon>
the chip used in IDBG includes  ADCs
<kristianpaul>
ok
<andres-calderon>
we have a lot of experience with the FTDI, i like this chip.
<tuxbrain>
nice reading of xue posibilities and conector :)
<tuxbrain>
IMMO having two connectors "ala arduino will provide stability to daughter boards and isntead of one cable we can deliver it with two :)
<tuxbrain>
for the DIY guys
<tuxbrain>
damn no wolfi to ask about SIE local production
<tuxbrain>
wolfgang: maybe we should include this cable also in next SIEs
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain: hola :)
<kristianpaul>
tuxbrain: how are workshops goinf btw?
<tuxbrain>
well after we decide to left the Tuxbrain den and return to a more nomad aproach people start to register...
<tuxbrain>
crazy world :P
<kristianpaul>
heh
<tuxbrain>
so we are looking for a place to do the first course of this kind
<kristianpaul>
place on demand too¡?
<tuxbrain>
I think the trick was the lovely penguins victor desing :)
<kristianpaul>
i like it
<tuxbrain>
well we have some friendly places that will allow to do the courses near here Barcelona
<tuxbrain>
but well if a group wants to pay our trip to whatever place :) we will go there
<kristianpaul>
thats demand !
<tuxbrain>
we are cheap to maintain once there , redbull before workshop/ beer after workshop, with some chip potatoes :)
<kristianpaul>
:)
<tuxbrain>
but well fist lets try to not so nomad approach and train ourselfs locally and if there is demand we can study the really nomad way,
<tuxbrain>
well time to sleep, Wolfi, tomorrow I will be not very on line but try to contact you
<rafa>
tuxbrain_away: we can offer you asados here :) (for courses)
<kristianpaul>
rafa: ;)
<kristianpaul>
or a jlime work
<kristianpaul>
shop**
<kristianpaul>
oops :)
<kristianpaul>
rafa: remener the other time i asked you about encryption support in jlme, not talking about making it default thing, do you think is loable ?
<kristianpaul>
rafa: like for saving personal information/data securelly
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: yay he said yes (scopemeter and some other labs tool just some blocks from home )
<wolfspraul>
roh: do you have mirko's camera, or where did you get it from?
<roh>
wolfspraul yeah.. for the moment. just trying the basics
<roh>
its cool hardware. really nice quality
<wolfspraul>
very happy to hear that
<wolfspraul>
roh: you would love those guys (Elphel). If you are every in Utah, give them a call (I know, long shot :-))
<wolfspraul>
there are only a few people in #elphel, but they should help you
<wolfspraul>
I once built the entire rootfs myself (not the fpga bitstreams though), but I never reflashed one
<wolfspraul>
roh: what do you like about the quality?
<wolfspraul>
you mean the case? or something you see on the board?
<wolfspraul>
roh: btw, please take good care of this camera. It's only loaned from Elphel... :-)
<roh>
wolfspraul for sure
<roh>
yes.. the mechanics ive seen so far. havent opened it
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: question about KiCad versions. you said you use a 2010-08-xx version. I assume you take them directly from the launchpad bazaar? I found two branches there, stable and testing. Which one do you use?
<wolfspraul>
my impression of the stable branch is that only a few critical fixes are backported, so it looks like you use testing? have you found that to be stable enough? or do you take it at certain times when you know from the devs that it is stable enough?
<wpwrak>
yup, it's testing that is use (juct checked ;-)
<wpwrak>
it's basically guesswork indeed
<wolfspraul>
and that's generally safe?
<wolfspraul>
or someone tells you a magic revision number and then you use that?
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: the c8051f326 (idbg) doesn't have an adc. you'd have to pick a more powerful chip in the same family for this.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: wow ! :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: (cable) you could also include just the connectors and a bit of cable. leave it to people to do the crimping.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain_away: where is the penguin ? :)
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (scope) great ! congratulations ! so you'll finally see what you're doing :)
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: (c8051f326 vs. ftdi) i'm still struggling with the ftdi chip. so far, it doesn't work in a usable way (with bitbanging) and i don't understand why. could be horribly bad design (the documentation isn't clear about some important details)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: i look at the list, see if i like the changes they're discussing/committing, then pick or not :)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: so far, i haven't gotten burnt. but then, i only do this a few times per year.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: can you tell me again what revision you are using right now?
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: i also see data corruption on the c8051f32x that gets past the crc. so my world is quite noise. that's why ben-wpan/cntr uses so much redundancy.
<wolfspraul>
I'll just follow that
<andres-calderon>
wpwrak,  IDBG could be used to  program a  S6?
<wpwrak>
what's a S6 ?
<andres-calderon>
Xilinx Spartan6
<wpwrak>
my kicad identifies itself as version 2010-08-11, bzr 2448
<wpwrak>
aah, spartan. hmm, after some work
<wpwrak>
i've implemented some jtag, but it doesn't work well. too slow.
<andres-calderon>
wpwrak, data corruption...  that is scary.
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: yeah, i don't like that at all
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: it's not very common, but you notice it in something like ben-wpan/cntr, where there are thousands of messages and one corruption can upset the system
<wpwrak>
andres-calderon: (i'll make it even more robust in the next version)
<wpwrak>
anyway, crawling to bed now. it's been a busy day with lots of drinks :)