<wpwrak_> the ghost is mysterious indeed. the cache has some subtle changes in the postscript. when i run things manually, there are no changes. interesting.
<wolfspraul> can you reproduce it on your end already?
<wolfspraul> I noticed the first ghosts appear with Adam's second commit already, so I will cut out everything else and only run those 2 revisions.
<wpwrak_> i have one ghost but i'm not sure it's the same as yours
<wpwrak_> you have of course a whole castle full of ghosts :)
<wpwrak_> in my case, there are single-pixel differences in the ppm0. in the corresponding postscript, there are some subtle changes like line thickness. however, when i generate the postscript manually, there are no differences.
<wpwrak_> i'm not regenerating the whole thing but i keep all the checked out revisions. then i can run things directly there and see what happens
<wpwrak_> s/not/noW/
<wpwrak_> generated. now let's see what happened ...
<wpwrak> oops, killing dbus-launch has interesting side-effects
<wpwrak> (ghostbusting) aha ! now i get different ps. one step closer
<wpwrak> oh dear
<wolfspraul> you are ahead of me. so far I only found that when I go back to say the 2nd commit, no ghosts. but they will show up (in that same commit) if I include later commits.
<wpwrak> in one version, the R comes from the kicad "device" library, in the other from the cache
<wpwrak> so it'a basically a difference of local kicad installations that shows up there.
<wpwrak> carlos' local version leaked via the cache.lib that he also checked into git
<wolfspraul> maybe sanitize the cache.lib as well?
<wpwrak> so the difference is real all the way. it just has a weird origin.
<wpwrak> hmm, delete it ? ;-)
<wpwrak> let's see what happens ...
<wolfspraul> I don't think files leaked from Carlos can explain it entirely
<wolfspraul> maybe Adam also leaked files
<wolfspraul> (if it's that)
<wolfspraul> when I git reset upwards, and then run schhist, this is the first time I see ghosts
<wolfspraul> at that point there are no commits from Carlos at all yet
<wpwrak> well, files leaked by whoever committed the cache.lib. kicad takes care of making sure the leakage occurs :)
<wolfspraul> in my url, if I run schhist up to and including the third commit (from the bottom), it's still fine
<wolfspraul> but when I let it run up to the 4th (visible) commit, the ghost diffs in the 3rd (visible) commit appear
<wpwrak> ah right, there's also stuff from adam. i just wrote "carlos" because i saw him there. doesn't really matter who committed, though.
<wolfspraul> ok should I wait until you commit further sanitizing, or continue digging deeper on my own?
<wpwrak> let's first see what the cache removal brings when it comes to the one ghost i had. rebuild is running.
<wolfspraul> k
<wpwrak> i suspect that there may be more amiss in your case, because the change keeps coming back, but maybe not
<wpwrak> oh ... could it be that the change keeps repeating when committers alternate ? one version with adam's cache, the next with carlos', etc.
<wpwrak> no. that doesn't make sense.
<wpwrak> caches should get synchronized as well. hmm.
<wolfspraul> I focus on the first time any problem appears, and then I would dig in there.
<wolfspraul> but it's on hold until your cache sanitizer improvements
<wpwrak> hmm. it gets worse. if i delete the cache, it doesn't find the components anymore.
<wpwrak> layouts will be fun. just spotted some nice long local absolute paths in the profile :-(
<wpwrak> okay, the missing components are caused by the origin having been removed from the profile
<wpwrak> so the project only works if you have the cache
<wpwrak> (or add them back)
<wpwrak> we can do this, of course ...
<wolfspraul> you lost me know
<wolfspraul> which origins are removed?
<wolfspraul> I'd say if something is missing, let's just not show a diff then, rather than work with unstable cache files that are most likely only accidentally committed
<wolfspraul> s/lost me know/lost me now/
<wpwrak> the profile (.pro) lists the libraries we use. local ones and system ones. in this case, the profile was cleaned up at some point in time.
<wpwrak> when that happened, the reference to the "device" library was removed. that one has things like R. so with the cache.lib now gone too, kicad no longer knows where to find this symbol
<wolfspraul> but why do the ghosts show up on the server but not your machine?
<wolfspraul> we just need to run exactly your setup on the server and we're done :-)
<wpwrak> maybe different local libraries. at least before the cache was checked in, kicad would use the local libs.
<wpwrak> i still don't know why your ghost is a revenant, but the stuff is so messy that there may just be a path i'm not thinking of at the moment
<wolfspraul> I took the Debian 20100314 KiCad package, and added your patches to it
<wpwrak> but lemme add the libs. the you can try and see how much this improves
<wolfspraul> so I did not build directly from KiCad upstream, but from the Debian package as a starting point
<wpwrak> next build is running ...
<wpwrak> hmm. better, but now they disappear in one version and come back a bit later. odd.
<wpwrak> ah, it's different parts that do the vanishing game
<wpwrak> okay, these are just profile editing mistakes. they were so bad that they were eventually noticed and reverted despite the cache covering things up
<wpwrak> so, hopefully final test
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: Added mmone-jtag-serial-cable. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/8be9fe1
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: gitsch2ps now by default removes cache.lib (option -c keeps it) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/7b1d3fd
<qi-bot> [commit] Werner Almesberger: Environment variable SCHHIST_ADDLIBS to force libraries to be present. http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/4d28daf
<wpwrak> alright. export SCHHIST_ADDLIBS=device
<wpwrak> and it will make sure we always have at least this
<wpwrak> let see how it goes
<wolfspraul> do I need to add SCHHIST_ADDLIBS into my script as well?
<wpwrak> at least for avt2, yes
<wpwrak> haven't tried the rest yet
<qwebirc3299> hi xiangfu
<xiangfu> qwebirc3299: Hi
<qwebirc3299> I have forwarded the schematic of level converter to Adam
<xiangfu> qwebirc3299: yes. I think he can help you.
<qwebirc3299> is there any possiblility of prob around kernel ported to NN
<qwebirc3299> i have downloaded the latest  image from the website
<xiangfu> qwebirc3299: this one is more recently. include the 'setfont2' patch. which make the terminal font more smooth.
<xiangfu> qwebirc3299: for now. the kernel pretty stable.
<qwebirc3299> ok
<qwebirc3299> so shall I port this and then try out
<qwebirc3299> is it something different vis-a-vis serial prot
<xiangfu> qwebirc3299: if you more focus in serial console. no need to try out the 2010-09-14 kernel.
<xiangfu> s/focus in/focus on/
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, for deanonymizing qwebircs, one possibility would be to put the nick in the real name field if nickserv rejects it
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: this is what my schhist of avt2 now looks like: http://downloads.qi-hardware.com/people/werner/schhist/avt2/
<qwebirc3299> xiangfu , is Adam trying to get some soln for my prob
<xiangfu> qwebirc3299: hmm.. you want create your own converter. or you just want the output from Nanonote?
<qwebirc3299> anything which can give me the reqd output
<xiangfu> qwebirc3299: then we can try to send email to mailing list. see if someone near you have bought a work converter :)
<xiangfu> qwebirc3299: or you can easy to buy from amozon ...
<qwebirc3299> the schematic i have sent to you and Adam, will it work or not ?
<xiangfu> qwebirc3299: sorry. I don't know much about the hardware schematic. I don't understand the low level hardware stuff.
<xiangfu> only know how to read write GPIO :)
<qwebirc3299> ok that is software part
<SiENcE> hi bartbes. nlove works good so far. i made a small game with it. still some problems using some functions, but all in all it works.
<kyak> lol, nice /etc/banner
<kyak> we should also have a custom image during boot
<SiENcE> bartbes ?
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: strange, I still get the same ghost diffs as before, as if SCHHIST_ADDLIB didn't do anything
<methril_work> wow!! imoressive the schematics history
<wolfspraul> methril_work: yes, but we are still fighting some bugs
<wolfspraul> but yes, it's great!!!
<wolfspraul> methril_work: you can find them all here http://en.qi-hardware.com/schhist
<wolfspraul> ah sorry, wrong link :-)
<methril_work> i'll love
<wolfspraul> I hope this will also create some discipline among our KiCad committers towards clean commits, clean commitlogs, etc.
<wolfspraul> now that their work is dragged out in the open so much more :-)
<methril_work> and it's only highlighting the modified part!!
<methril_work> i never see that on schematics
<methril_work> wolfspraul, i ended paying my work hours (more or less)
<methril_work> so i'm going to have some time now!!! :)
<wolfspraul> you mean you quit your job?
<methril_work> no, i quit my extra hours (for the moment)
<methril_work> so i only have to work 9h at day
<wolfspraul> ah OK, well great! welcome to our project!
<wolfspraul> man we do need you :-)
<methril_work> i'm going to have 2/3 spare hours at time
<wolfspraul> what are you most interested in?
<methril_work> i'm interested in almost everything, hehehe
<methril_work> but i'm going to work on RTAI 4 MIPS processors (for the moment) if you didn't have any priority task in mind
<methril_work> i love the Milkymist
<thevishy> hhi
<wolfspraul> RTAI 4 MIPS? what is that?
<thevishy> is it possible t replace a laptop monitor with a different model ?
<thevishy> i dont mind if it doesnt fit properly to my laptop case
<thevishy> like say mine is 14w , would 15w fit ?
<methril_work> Real Time
<wolfspraul> methril_work: how does it relate to other things like Milkymist, SIE, etc?
<wolfspraul> or the other way round - how can we help with your project?
<wolfspraul> what's the goal?
<methril_work> wolfspraul, it's related with SIE, to get a real time api forrobotics
<methril_work> s/forrobotics/for robotics/
<methril_work> and also could use scilab with rtai extensions to get a simulink/labview similar environment with SIE (mostly)
<rafa> methril_work: wow.. you have a 9h work per day and also you can work 2 or 3 hours more. Cool ! :) .. I can just work around 6 hours per day for all (paid+hobby), no more, maybe less. maybe i have some kind of lazy disease :P
<wolfspraul> methril_work: do you have a SIE board?
<methril_work> rafa, well, it depends how you organize your time ;)
<methril_work> wolfspraul, not jet
<wolfspraul> hmm
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> where will you get it from?
<rafa> methril_work: yes, something of that could be the reason
<methril_work> i'm waiting for a Carlos sent :)
<wolfspraul> i thought the plan was for several months to get one to you...
<methril_work> wolfspraul, it was
<methril_work> but it didn't arrive
<methril_work> but i could start this port with the ben
<wolfspraul> yes good
<methril_work> do you think there are most important tasks to deal with?
<wolfspraul> thanks for asking
<wolfspraul> I think the main thing is that you find something that truly interests you, that helps you in the future
<wolfspraul> and then, second most important, that you are steadily working on it, not just a burst for a few weeks then nothing for months or longer
<methril_work> well, i'm also interested in milkymist, but i've to study a lot to get a productive level
<wolfspraul> yes sure
<methril_work> so i see it like a long term plan
<wolfspraul> SIE is a good start
<wolfspraul> and NanoNote is a start for SIE
<wolfspraul> that's why we have all these projects together here :-)
<methril_work> hehehe
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (ghosts) i was afraid yours wouldn't go away so easily :-(
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, SCHHIST_ADDLIBS only corrects a problem unconvered by removing the cache. removing the cache is what should stabilize the process. the cache is now removed by default.
<methril_work> rafa, you live in Argentina, isn't it?
<wolfspraul> rafa: speaking about SAKC/SIE boards, what happened to that one professor you gave one to?
<rafa> wolfspraul: hey, it was sakc.. he started to port jlime to sakc and work on the bootloader for sd, then also there was a student interested to work his thesis with something about next SIe or Sakc. But no idea currently. I need to ask why he is quiet nowaday..
<rafa> wolfspraul: well, I started my trip and forgot the world for a month or two as well :D
<rafa> methril_work: yes, where are you from?
<methril_work> i'm from spain but i'm living in Brazil
<methril_work> in the south of brazil (Rio Grand do Sul)
<rafa> methril_work: ah.. we are neighbors
<methril_work> rafa, yes!! :)
<rafa> methril_work: you are almost in uruguay or argentina :)
<methril_work> rafa, i'm, I would like to plan a trip to Uruguay, or maybe Argentina
<methril_work> rafa, i'll ask you for advices ;)
<rafa> methril_work: if you come to argentina please keep in touch
<rafa> methril_work: we can meet here
<methril_work> rafa, i'll do :) Where are you? in Buenos Aires?
<rafa> methril_work: of course, no doubts.. please tell us if you are coming some day.. we know buenos aires a lot.. so you will have fun if you ask us .. Also we can talk about copyleft hardware and things to do together perhaps
<wpwrak> soon, we'll have enough developers in south america that we can benefit from the inferiority complexes of the political class and get government funding ;-) a state of the art pan-continental technology project where something actually gets done. that's definitely something new around here :)
<methril_work> wpwrak, this is new around the world ;)
<wpwrak> methril_work: in europe, you get some EU-sponsored R&D projects that sometimes do get something done (ACTS and the like). of course, that whole thing is rather expensive for its output. not that i'd complain too much - it served us well back then ;-)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: do i have access to the machine where the schhist process lives ? may be easier if i can just log in and grab the files.
<methril_work> wpwrak, i know, i was living in Europe until the beginning of this year
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: try ssh root@
<wolfspraul> root = access, no? :-)
<wolfspraul> hostname is fidelio.qi-hardware.com
<wpwrak> i'm beginning to worry about the security of my own systems :)
<wpwrak> projects. ... works. too ;) thanks !
<wpwrak> ah no,. wrong server. darn, no locked doors anywhere :)
<wolfspraul> yes, it's not the same server
<wolfspraul> the buildhost (fidelio) is basically the building sandbox
<wolfspraul> also it's not backed up
<wolfspraul> system is tuned for performance (raid0 etc)
<wolfspraul> 100% of the data on it is recreatable
<wolfspraul> so for schhist, fidelio is ideal
<wolfspraul> once I do my wiki->openwrt packaging system, the build steps will also run there. everything else would be crazy insecure.
<wpwrak> the happy sandbox farm :)
<bartbes> SiENcE: you expect me to reply while I'm gone?
<wpwrak> downloading the critters ...
<bartbes> anyway, what problems?
<wpwrak> bartbes: awol ? tsk tsk. we have to send igor over to tighten these chains again.
<bartbes> wpwrak: I was KIA
<wpwrak> bartbes: ah one of these immortals again. we didn't have that in our files yet.
<bartbes> well, obviously you went for the wrong intelligence agency
<wpwrak> rafa: btw, i briefly discussed with wolfspraul the jlime vs. qi-hardware situation, namely that jlime doesn't get much exposure/visibility due to the patent issues.
<wpwrak> rafa: i also remember that you weren't quite sure what to do about it. correct ?
<wpwrak> bartbes: i'll have those traitors executed. can't have that if your goal is world domination. now, where's my white cat.
<bartbes> wpwrak: I think I saw it killing some dogs over there
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: wiki -> openwrt ,  how is that?
<SiENcE> bartbes, hey. well now you are here. i just waited
<kristianpaul> something like make a package as you write a wiki article? :)
<rafa> wpwrak: I am sure that we (jlime) should do to fix the patent issues (on software side), but that I am not sure is how to work with other jlime devs it. We have a lead/dictator/main developer, kristoffer, but he wants, like me, decide what to do deciding between all devs (we are really few guys). But then, we discussed it at jlime meeting..
<SiENcE> bartbes, just want to say that nlove works on dingoo a320. on weekend some friends and i wrote an love2d game and i ported it to nlove (just because not all functions work in nlove)
<SiENcE> bartbes, i can send it to you later
<rafa> wpwrak: .. OE already includes all this kind of stuff (software/libs which can encode/decode patented stuff)..
<wpwrak> rafa: so some didn't like the idea of making it easy to exclude patent-encumbered packages ?
<rafa> wpwrak: and we should manage that there. Currently, another jlime dev is working with OE for muffinman/nn, and we could work that. Buuut,
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: actually, at what level does the PATENT flag work ? package yes/no, build process changes, patches of packages ?
<SiENcE> bartbes : i just want to ask, if you plan to merge nlove with love2d ... and if you plan to finish it?  it would be good to have an git or svn repository for the code
<rafa> when we were in jlime meeting, we realize that tuxbrain decided to use jlime anyway.
<rafa> wpwrak: and wolfspraul already said that tuxbrain was the most concerned part of patented issues.
<wpwrak> tuxbrain_away: so you're no longer worried about patent trolls ? or just sleeping badly every since that fateful decision ? :)
<rafa> wpwrak: so we decided to wait a while before to do the hard work.
<wpwrak> s/every/ever/
<rafa> wpwrak: I guess that tuxbrain is really worried, but he did not have a lot of stuff to decide what to use
<rafa> wpwrak: so we will wait a while to know what other nn resellers like to have inside of nn
<wpwrak> rafa: fair enough. of course, the patent problem will hit everyone in the distribution process. tuxbrain is just the most exposed at the moment, being in europe, the home of the mp3 trolls.
<rafa> wpwrak: we are the dark side so far :)
<rafa> wpwrak: you will not find jlime info if you are a qi user who just check qi wiki .. but if you look deeper .. ;)
<wpwrak> yes, the lack of information is what worries me a bit. of the thre choices, openwrt, jlime, and debian, jlime seems to be the one best adapted to the device. yet it's kinda hard to find.
<kristianpaul> indeed
<wpwrak> so many people will just assume that the default (openwrt) is implicitly recommended, stay with it, and maybe start fixing it and porting stuff to it, things you've already done long ago on jlime
<wpwrak> thus, instead of making a good distribution even better, all this work goes into making a weaker distribution stronger. so the average does improve, but the maximum doesn't.
<kristianpaul> openwrt will stay there for devel, but jlime is looking endusers now >)
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: i'm currently fairly distribution-agnostic (my user space is the shell :) so i haven't tried jlime yet. is it in any way less convenient for developers ? e.g., is it harder to get a host toolchain ?
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: (jlime devel) no no,my point was in eduser experience development not development tools support
<kristianpaul> but thats other point for jlime
<kristianpaul> :)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, do you know what license xue is under ?
<bartbes> SiENcE: I'll probably merge it in after 0.7.0 releases
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: gpl/cc-by-sa
<wolfspraul> the files are not as clean as I wish, we need to clarify in more places
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: just look here http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/Xue
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: ah, perfect. thanks !
<rafa> wpwrak: I guess that one nice thing with our stuff is the complete repositofy built from OE. If you use jlime you do not need to spend a lot of days to have some application ported, you just install it from repository. The same with debian. But also, we have worked with tiny screen, 16MB of ram, slow cpu devices for several years, so we alredy suffered testing a lot of different kind of stuff for those devices. That is why we know that still if gtk1 is rea
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: regarding the PATENT flag, at what granularity does it work. e.g., for mplayer, does it just kick out mplayer, does it pick a different build script / change options in the existing script, does it apply special patches to the source, ... ?
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: yeah I just want something that lets you hook into the buildhost from the wiki, say write a script in the wiki, have it packaged on the backend
<wolfspraul> I'll do the minimum plumbing necessary to hook the wiki & buildhost/openwrt build environment together
<rafa> wpwrak: also.. we already know how to config the light X which use just few 5 MB of ram or less.. and which wm (we alredy tested around 20 these years)
<rafa> to use
<wpwrak> rafa: OE is a mixed blessing :) it gives you a lot of stuff but at the same time it's quite a monster
<wpwrak> rafa: so it's quite hard for new people to work in there. openwrt has an advantage in this regard.
<rafa> wpwrak: yes, it is a monster, but if you use it just to build your repository it willl be quiet complete.. and you will have all the stuff already built for your arch.
<rafa> wpwrak: ah.. you means to expand it?.. it is already okey :)
<rafa> no add more stuff please!
<rafa> :D
<kristianpaul> indeed about monster
<kristianpaul> i wonder how works bitbake inside
<wpwrak> rafa: reminds me of that guy who said around 1900 that all interesting things have been researched and he didn't expect significant any further technological discoveries/inventions :)
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: probably much like the digestive tract of the title character of "alien"
<kristianpaul> lol
<wpwrak> hmm, that message needs reshuffling. i shouldn't multitask
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: patented flag - don't know exactly. the flag is passed into the Makefile, I guess it could be passed deeper if necessary.
<wolfspraul> remember that openwrt is a patch management system
<wolfspraul> so the patches can of course drive this flag deeper into upstream sources
<aisa> Good morning hackers.
<wpwrak> rafa: a high barrier for participation means more reliance on the people who have already mastered that barrier. now, in the case of jlime, that's unfortunately only a small group. so there is a continuity concern.
<aisa> Or good evening for those of you who experienced Monday already.  :-D
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: okay. so what happens with you set that flag, in terms of differences in the output ?
<SiENcE> bartbes, good. is there a forum thread about nlove? or what about an coderepository? i had to patch some functions to get it working
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: remove mp3, mpeg4, h.264
<wolfspraul> aisa: sorry I'm slow. the news stuff we talked about is not ready yet. give me another day.
<SiENcE> bartbes : i still have the problem, that starting nlove alone couses an segfault. but starting nlove with pong for example works
<wolfspraul> feel free to start editing of course, no hesitations...
<wpwrak> rafa: i remember OE well from openmoko. we had that problem that lots of people had to wrestle with it, with all the problems this causes. things got a bit better when there were more or less dedicated maintainers, so one could just drop off a package and they would take care of the OE-specific side.
<tuxbrain_away> regarding jlime and pantent trolls and tuxbrain
<wpwrak> rafa: those working on GUI-ish things still worked a lot in OE, though. not sure how well that went.
<tuxbrain> I manually remove mp3 codecs on the Nanowar edition of jlime
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: do you remember that ? people working on OM GUI apps using OE as their build environment ?
<aisa> wolfspraul: it is fine with me, Monday is difficult for me: too many things to get done.
<aisa> indeed!  I will.
<tuxbrain> so at least at by default it will not play them
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: I remember clearly. That's why I (that is just me, personally), chose to try OpenWrt this time around... :-) Nothing against OE though, and especially not a nice distribution like Jlime.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (mp3, ...) okay, so find granularity. good.
<wolfspraul> but please, nobody ever try to force me back into OE/bitbake again
<aisa> If Jlime dealt with the patent issue, is that the only reason stopping adoption of it?
<wolfspraul> neither directly, nor indirectly (managing people who have the suicidal mission to go there)
<kristianpaul> lol
<rafa> wpwrak: well, yes and no. we are a small group.. but OE is being worked for many groups. I am not sure that you means with a monster, I like OE to build a complete repository, I do not like so much it to keep different root filesystems. For repository it is nice.. you just has a tiny.bb for an application and it builds, like you had in gentoo for example. And OE is quiete complete.. so you do not need to add many applications to the feed, and others also d
<wolfspraul> nothing stops 'adoption'
<wolfspraul> already now
<tuxbrain> alsa: for my part yes
<wolfspraul> I reflashed the new run of 1000 nanos recently
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: i think rafa already  did (sacrify) for us :)
<wolfspraul> and we didn't have a good openwrt build (the one we ended up flashing has serious bugs)
<aisa> I guess I'm troubled by this: I'd like to dive deeply into a distribution and make it something really special on the NanoNote.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: i know what you mean. i've seen the OE wars for something like a year even before you joined :) (don't even remember how long ... certainly felt like half a lifetime)
<wolfspraul> I was pretty close to just reflashing jlime without asking anyone :-)
<kristianpaul> :O
<wolfspraul> but then I thought it's too chaotic...
<aisa> With no other information, I wish to use the one that comes with my NanoNote, in the hope that my work also makes it into the official image.
<tuxbrain> if jlime was pantent savy I will ask wolfgang to send my NN with Jlime instead of openwrt
<tuxbrain> in spite it sound cruel
<tuxbrain> after the 1000 reflashing
<wolfspraul> no problem, I'd love to do that
<aisa> But it seems like much energy is applied toward Jlime or other environments,
<wolfspraul> if my customers, someone who wants to buy, challenge me, as a manufacture, to put software A/B/C on it, that's a great challenge
<aisa> and that OpenWrt, while being the image that comes flashed on the device, receives the least attention.
<wolfspraul> that's the beauty of free software
<wolfspraul> I will gladly accept such challenges, and get the stuff reflashed in the way people want it. done.
<aisa> tuxbrain: who is Mr/Mrs Jlime?  I want to talk to them.
<wolfspraul> aisa: OpenWrt receives a lot of attention
<kristianpaul> aisa: you meant then muffin man?
<tuxbrain> alsa, the user experience with jlime worht that energy
<rafa> wolfspraul: if debian would have some kind of repositories for mobile devices (with small, just minimal files packages for every application) we would use debian surely..
<wolfspraul> you will not be able to marry the two here, many people tried before you :-)
<wpwrak> aisa: funny, to me it seems that actually quite a lot of work goes into openwrt :)
<wolfspraul> there are good reasons for both of them
<tuxbrain> at least on my side as one who has to buy it
<rafa> aisa: you can join us in #jlime channel
<bartbes> SiENcE: that is because I guess the a320 can't handle fb windows larger than its screen size
<tuxbrain> I love the simplicity of developing on Openwrt
<rafa> aisa: you can talk there with us .. and you would meet MR JLIME! :D
<bartbes> SiENcE: and no, there's no repo atm, but fixes should be submitted to me
<aisa> my knees shake!  :-D
<wpwrak> rafa: has any attempt been made to change debian in this direction ? at least to the point of getting the opinion of the "core" debian maintainers ?
<tuxbrain> I have succesfully make my own builds and adaptations, thing that I hade never fully achieved with OE on openmoko era
<wolfspraul> aisa: OpenWrt & OpenEmbedded are very different
<kristianpaul> rafa: is that too bad emdebian?
<wolfspraul> the judgment will of course differ depending on which side of the camp you stand on
<aisa> I was around when OE was formed/created.
<wolfspraul> it's clear that OpenEmbedded is as much real free software as OpenWrt is
<aisa> but I haven't looked at it since then.
<wolfspraul> putting some border cases like binary firmware blobs and patents aside, we all feel similarly on those anyway.
<wolfspraul> for me personally, I'm now sold on OpenWrt
<SiENcE> bartbes, :-( ok. i can send you a patch. but it would be good to know where i can find updates for nlove src. if sdlsound is working
<wolfspraul> _personally_
<wolfspraul> but I'd love to reflash any software, preferably free software, on NanoNotes to sell them
<kristianpaul> i like openwrt simplicy as far i can see
<wpwrak> rafa: the things is that OE is very very complex. for openwrt, if you understand makefile and kconfig, you're almost there. for oe, you need to learn about bitbake, all its configuration files, and sometimes also things like caches and such. (the latter mainly because OE moves a lot of stuff. that's of course a scalability issue also openwrt will run into, if brought to the same number of packages)
<wolfspraul> the next big thing will be the software for Milkymist One and then Xue, the digital camera
<rafa> wpwrak: no.. we do not have any contact with them (debian), no sure about emdebian as kristianpaul says.. We should check how emdebian is going.. I am not sure if it is very used.
<wolfspraul> if you would let me choose, which tool is best for that task, I would pick OpenWrt over OE many times
<aisa> wolfspraul: what is the one feature of OE that OpenWrt doesn't have?  Since you would pick OpenWrt, what would you miss about OE?
<bartbes> SiENcE: I guess I could blog about new releases :P
<wolfspraul> OpenEmbedded has a much larger repository though, and much more history & packages on the GUI side
<tuxbrain> wolfspraul: I agree
<wolfspraul> I wouldn't miss anything from OE.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: from a system developer point of view, i liked the "lots of packages (provided by someone else)" plus my root-making script plus an easily installed host toolchain that can also install libraries (with opkg)
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: wpwrak in openmoko what was the experience with debian in that time?
<SiENcE> bartbes : ok :-) . i would also port it to caanoo
<bartbes> SiENcE: though I might put it up on bitbucket next time I work on it
<bartbes> caanoo?
<SiENcE> gph caanoo
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the workflow is then like on a regular linux pc - you rarely build things your actual work is based on yourself, you just install the package
<wolfspraul> anyway we are not talking about the tool OpenWrt vs. the tool OpenEmbedded now, or rather that's a separate discussion
<wolfspraul> we are talking about Jlime
<SiENcE> bartbes : bitbucket is ok . better would be github but ok
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: (debian) i think a bit like here - it exists but never got quite that much attention
<wolfspraul> Jlime is a great distribution for NanoNote, definitely
<bartbes> SiENcE: well, love is on bitbucket
<SiENcE> ah ok
<bartbes> also, with the new owner bitbucket got cooler
<SiENcE> i have to test it
<bartbes> and promises to get even cooler
<aisa> Will OpenWrt scale to the number of packages to make the NN a nice working environment?
<tuxbrain> aisa: matter of time and matainers but yes it should
<aisa> Does that mean I can go clean up the Utilities submenu in make menuconfig...
<aisa> it is screens and screens long.
<kristianpaul> jlime is great as rafa point dont get overloaded with too much features
<aisa> .oinai
<SiENcE> bartbes : i think boot.lua has to be patched to work on nanonote and dingoo. lower standard resolution an better no vsync
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: i think there are several issues to consider with jlime or any other distro: one it the end user experience, one is how well it fits the developer's need, then whether it's long-term viable, which breaks down into a) current maintainers, b) accessibility for new maintainers, and c) alignment with other work (i.e., how much actually needs to be done to keep it afloat)
<kristianpaul> aisa: i think the idea of openwrt simplicy is just have what you need
<aisa> wpwrak: +1.  Very well said.
<SiENcE> bartbes, but all in all ...its really cool to code in love2d and than use the same code to run it on handhelds :)
<aisa> I worry that Jlime won't go anywhere unless the NN is aligned with it, and doing so may mean both get to a dead-end.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the jlime vs. debian issue is also relevant. rafa mentioned to me before that he'd actually prefer jlime to be debian-based, but the issue is that debian doesn't have the right granularity for small devices
<aisa> We are very open to new developers, so if we branch, I think that problem is the same regardless of distribution.
<aisa> save issues with upstream.
<wpwrak> aisa: (dead end) that's also my concern
<SiENcE> bartbes, last weekend we where on a hobby game development meeting and we took part on an overnight game coding contest. since the last 4 years we took Love2d for this...and last year we won the 1st price.
<aisa> I believe that xiangfu and wolfspraul were trying to tell me some of that last night, but it is much clearer to me this morning, after reading what you said.
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: talking about GUI end user experience openmoko moved to Qt isnt?
<kristianpaul> as they found gtk(2?) was too slow
<kristianpaul> but now jlime shows somthing diferente
<wpwrak> aisa: ah ... no, i misread what you wrote :) no, i'm not too worried about both going into dead-end land so far. i'm worried about jlime not going anywhere without closer ties to the nanonote.
<aisa> wpwrak: take the dead-end issue to its logical conclusion, should we not align with the largest embedded handheld linux distribution?
<aisa> as a space, it isn't going anywhere.
<tuxbrain> user experience(jlime wins) developer's need(mmmm draw, OE more libraries, openwrt more easy to manage), lonterm- viable...... if we don't sell more NN  who cares :)
<aisa> wpwrak: ah, ok.  I agree.
<aisa> tuxbrain: well said.  What sells more NN?
<aisa> does our choice of distribution matter for that?
<kristianpaul> no
<wpwrak> aisa: and the nanonote doesn't look its best only with openwrt. so there's a nice symbiosis there. nn gives jlime a reason to exist and nn lives a happier life if jlime is around.
<SiENcE> bartbes, btw. i'm a close friend of qubodup
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes!
<SiENcE> real life
<wolfspraul> aisa: there is no 'choice of distribution', also no 'alignment'
<aisa> wolfspraul: I am trying to hear you, but I'm troubled by the size of our community and what I see as all of us going in separate directions.
<bartbes> SiENcE: yeah, but since 0.7.0 features a new no-game screen anyway.. I was lazy
<aisa> so when I read that, what I hear is that we'll be as flexible and accomodating to everyone,
<bartbes> SiENcE: that is cool
<aisa> and I fear in that won't create a great experience for anyone.
<bartbes> SiENcE: and that is even cooler
<aisa> I want to be convinced out of this, stop worrying, and start working.
<aisa> but I'm not there yet... :-(
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: what i'm saying is that i, as a system developer, was happy with the OE situation we had at the end in OM. the badness of OE was nicely shielded from me and the made pretty packages for anything i wanted.
<bartbes> SiENcE: btw, my slow replies are because I'm watching a vid fullscreen, so I don't get notifs
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: so i didn't have to touch OE myself. hence the issue of OE complexity vanishes. that is, as long as there's someone who maintains it for me. i do occasionally like outsourcing ;-)
<SiENcE> bartbes, np :) .  So what i want to say is, that i'm going to support nlove or love2d for handdevices where i can!
<wolfspraul> aisa: yes I understand
<wpwrak> aisa: (too many directions) yup. that's what troubles me with openwrt. there are probably around ten people doing distro maintenance work at the moment, and they're split into three directions already.
<SiENcE> bartbes: and i really want to port our games to this devices
<tuxbrain> aisa: don't get wrong or worried, qi-comunity is on of the most pushing in one direction one I have ever meet :)
<wolfspraul> aisa: whenever I learn about some new free software, or let's say often, I think "oh no, why can't we do this with software XYZ"
<aisa> tuxbrain: well, I came to the right place then.
<wolfspraul> but then, when you look deeper, you see the reasons
<tuxbrain> most of us are happily using at time debian/jlime/openwrt :)
<wpwrak> aisa: this wouldn't matter if they're only focussed on a single distro anyway, i.e., they would refuse to touch anything else. but i think most of them would be happy to contribute anywhere, so it would be beneficial to steer them into the direction where their work has the largest value.
<wolfspraul> OpenEmbedded will not go away, it's far too big and diverse
<SiENcE> bartbes: lalalove, "28 brainz later", Zurückgefilmt, ...
<wolfspraul> very very diverse actually
<bartbes> SiENcE: I guess when 0.7.0 releases I will fork it on bitbucket and start merging in the nlove changes
<bartbes> SiENcE: I have only seen lalalove really
<wolfspraul> neither will OpenWrt, which differs in many ways from OE
<wolfspraul> neither will Debian
<wolfspraul> neither will Fedora
<aisa> that means Jlime is the only open question.
<kristianpaul> iris? :)
<aisa> on this issue.
<aisa> kristianpaul: hehe.
<SiENcE> bartbes, oh you know it :) ... well we are going to make a website with all 4 games
<wolfspraul> and I also expect more interesting microkernels to appear in coming years, actually we have a nice little one on the NanoNote already, Iris (not very functional though)
<wolfspraul> aisa: open question?
<aisa> wolfspraul: question of long-term viability.
<wolfspraul> Jlime is today probably giving you the best end user experience on the Ben NanoNote.
<wolfspraul> great long term viability
<wolfspraul> I know rafa, I'm not worried.
<wolfspraul> he's a strong man!
<aisa> :-)
<wolfspraul> and there are others too
<wolfspraul> which question are we trying to answer now, actually?
<tuxbrain> so rafa: will jlime community will do somthing about the pattent for I can struggle wolfgang to sendme jlime NN or not ?
<wolfspraul> I lost track a bit.
<aisa> If I had to summarize this conversation right now, I'd say we use OpenWrt because wolfspraul likes it and is familiar with it.
<tuxbrain> btw rafa you own me a ogv player :)
<aisa> And that we have lots of options/directions as a community for platforms, for better or for worse.
<wolfspraul> he :-)
<wolfspraul> my superpowers
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: i'm a bit worried about him deciding to get a job that saps too much of his strength :)
<wolfspraul> aisa: it's not what I like
<wolfspraul> really
<wolfspraul> OpenWrt has done a great service for us
<wolfspraul> let's just take one thing out - Linux kernel upstream work
<aisa> That is much better said, thank you.
<wolfspraul> the NanoNote was released in February this year
<aisa> I'm sorry it took me so long to get here...
<aisa> traffic.
<wolfspraul> in a few weeks, when 2.6.36 comes out, we will have 90% of the Ben NanoNote kernel in kernel.org
<wolfspraul> that's awesome!
<aisa> very, very awesome.
<wolfspraul> take that for 'long term viability' :-)
<wpwrak> how are openwrt and kernel upstream connected ? kernel should be pretty distro-agnostic
<wolfspraul> which tool helped us to get there?
<wolfspraul> OpenWrt!
<aisa> This is a much clearer picture for me.
<wpwrak> you mean "having any userspace at all? ?
<aisa> it also ties into our conversation last night, wolfspraul, where you articulated other reasons things are the way they are right now.
<wolfspraul> OpenWrt is really strong on kernel patch management, and the people that have helped us drive the kernel upstream are essentially using openwrt as their development/patch management system
<wolfspraul> the question is not what could theoretically happen
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: uboot too
<wolfspraul> of course theoretically this could also happen with OE, or buildroot, or whatever
<wolfspraul> but it did not, and it did happen via OpenWrt
<aisa> but in actual fact, it is happening right now with OpenWrt.
<wpwrak> rafa: what's your feeling about jlime and oe vs. debian. do you think a switch is something that's likely to be attempted ? do you know what the other jlime developers think about this ?
<wolfspraul> aisa: correct
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: I think Debian on the NanoNote is so slow that it is unusable, unless you are very very generous
<aisa> ok, pretend the opposite for a moment.  What does Jlime have or do that OpenWrt doesn't?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: making it not so slow would be part of the challenge :)
<aisa> Why all the Jlime love?
<wpwrak> gives the word to tuxbrain :)
<aisa> Like, actual Jlime love, not "here is what I hope."
<kristianpaul> because run X nicelly and rafa support us too much :)
<aisa> why do you today install Jlime instead of OpenWrt?
<aisa> kristianpaul: And OpenWrt?  Not as nice?
<aisa> or just is it the work hasn't been done yet?
<kristianpaul> yup
<tuxbrain> due it works out of the box smoth and easy
<aisa> I'm asking: social or technical barrier to solving this?
<tuxbrain> with a good bunch of apps by defoult
<kristianpaul> but  i must said last openwrt image looks better
<aisa> wonderful wonderful.  This is much clearer to me now.
<kristianpaul> good :)
<aisa> You're all very awesome.
<tuxbrain> I allways said the ideal NN OS is Openwrt boottimes + Jlime user experience and package aviable
<aisa> Man, boottime matters insanely much to me.
<wolfspraul> he
<tuxbrain> then go for Openwrt
<wolfspraul> :-)
<kristianpaul> :D
<aisa> well yeah, but then I'm going to add all this crap.
<aisa> sorry, end-user experience.
<aisa> and it will go get all slow.
<tuxbrain> heheheeh
<wpwrak> aisa: well, you've perhaps seen tuxbrain's nanowar promo video. the device with jlime basically looks like something commercially made for regular users. the ben with openwrt greets the tinkerer, promising lots of problems that need fixing.
<wolfspraul> openwrt has been designed with target platforms with 4 mb or 8 mb or ram originally
<wolfspraul> it may even run on 2mb targets
<wolfspraul> that's basically the bottom end of the 'openwrt range' (it's optimized for)
<wpwrak> aisa: nothing wrong with the latter per se, since tinkerers are what we want, but it also changes the focus of people
<wolfspraul> the NanoNote with 32mb has a nice decent amount of memory for openwrt
<wolfspraul> I think OE is good for 64-256 mb memory
<wpwrak> aisa: instead of doing new things with the platform, they work on catching up with the minimum status quo
<wolfspraul> debian or fedora above that
<wolfspraul> but guess what - Fedora is coming down
<wolfspraul> if the NanoNote had 64 MB, Fedora would have started supporting it already (so I am told)
<kristianpaul> aisa: also jlime key bindings are more generic than in openwrt
<wolfspraul> Fedora has now declared 64 mb to be their 'bottom end'
<wpwrak> aisa: so instead of building spacecraft they dig up the ground to put some sewage system
<tuxbrain> I just want costumers damnit, not thikeres or such , for me they can usit to equilibrate a table meanwhili it buy them for me </shopkeeper mode off>
<wolfspraul> I think OpenWrt is the stronger tool if you want to make a custom image
<wolfspraul> say a customer wants to order 500 NanoNote, but put a total customized image on it
<tuxbrain> wolfspraul: I agree again
<wolfspraul> would you point them to OE or OpenWrt?
<wolfspraul> I would point to OpenWrt many times over
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: i would use something like myroot, fed by a rich package repository
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: why even bother with the build process if someone else has done it already for you anyway ?
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: fine, but you get my point. if the choice is between owrt or oe, in that case you would also recomment owrt.
<wolfspraul> Jlime has great images today, and a great package repository.
<wolfspraul> some patent issues though
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: as i said, i was happy with the arrangement we had at the end in OM. both from an "it worked for me" point of view as well as from a conceptual point of view.
<rafa> wpwrak: no, we have not done anything about debian, we like it because it builds, as you know, repositories for different kind of archs.. and those are really huge. But we do not have idea if they will have something nice for small devices in the future. If they do we could use that someday (and to help them of course).
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: so i'm looking for ways to get closer to something like that. the questions whether openwrt or OE is easier to build only matters if you're working on that sewage system. if you're building the spacecraft, you'd prefer to not touch either at that level.
<wolfspraul> rafa: I think Debian will never work really well on 32 mb
<wolfspraul> servers, desktop, notebooks all go up
<wolfspraul> 8 gb is normal nowadays
<wolfspraul> on servers > 20 gb
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: to answer your question, if i had to make that heavily customized image myself, then my choice would be either openwrt or port myroot and run it off the jlime packages (if that's possible).
<wolfspraul> servers will have more than 100gb memory soon
<wolfspraul> even for our devices, we don't have 32 mb because we like artificial restrictions
<aisa> I'm logged into a 16-proc, 132gb linux box right now.
<wolfspraul> it's because it was the best / most high-tech device we believed we could tackle with our resources
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: if i need that heavily customized image but i'd get external help, it would depend mainly on who's best at solving my needs. and there jlime looks like the better bet. (depends of course on what exactly needs customizing)
<wolfspraul> and it seems we can, barely... after 1 year :-)
<wolfspraul> I wish we could go to 64 mb, 128 mb, etc. the more the better.
<wolfspraul> no 10 horses will drag me back to bitbake
<rafa> wpwrak: for the rootfs image I like just the minimal rootfs that OE builds, but I do not like how OE keeps different kind of distributions/images. So far, I just build the minimal rootfs with OE and repository, then just a makefile or script adds some extra packages and multimedia stuff. A jlime dev is making the whole image inside of OE like it should be if you use it. But well, for the rootfs image I just like a simple makefile/script to build that :)
<wolfspraul> I only have so much time in my life. enough for that one...
<aisa> amused
<wpwrak> rafa: could the first step be to more clearly identify the technical reasons for it being difficult for small devices ?
<kristianpaul> curios about the wpwrak myroot syste,
<kristianpaul> m
<wolfspraul> aisa: yeah, really. I suffered for 1.5 yr from it. I had a whole team on this beast, 3 or 4 full-time people.
<rafa> wolfspraul: yeah.. debian is for PC only I guess
<wolfspraul> if wpwrak says he would pick that for the custom image, he he. I will watch gladly, sipping my drinks...
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> no thanks
<aisa> wolfspraul: this would suggest that we could in theory catch up and surpass OE, by being more nimble.
<wolfspraul> Jlime images - great! getting into the bitbake mess myself again - NO.
<aisa> *unless* we give up that nimbleness because it isn't possible at the scale OE operates at.
<wolfspraul> hard to say, and that is definitely no my/our problem
<aisa> this much is good to hear.
<wolfspraul> I'm focusing on all things hardware, manufacturing. so much to free up there.
<wolfspraul> both OE and OpenWrt are quite active projects
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: yup, packages is what i'm after. and nice people like zecke who add stuff i ask them for within hours :)
<wolfspraul> you cannot pick a 'winner', no matter how hard you try, because they are very different once you spend some time diving in.
<rafa> wpwrak: we should write that at wiki maybe.. so the technical reasons are modified there. debian packages are big, for example those brings man pages, extra docs, etc. Also there are packages with multiple files for different kind of stuff that a small device could not need. For example perl with around 1000 files.. a small device could have just few disk space to install the whole perl and adds. Maybe you just want to use perl and some extra perl adds to
<wolfspraul> aisa: openwrt has about 2000 packages now, openembedded maybe 15,000 or so
<wolfspraul> not that these numbers mean much
<aisa> whoa.
<wolfspraul> I wish there were 100 apps that work REALLY WELL on the NanoNote, in either owrt or oe/jlime
<wpwrak> aisa: i'm not sure openwrt scales to that size and functionality. you very often hear people complain that X is way too complex and slow etc. so they build Y that only implements 10% of what X can do and is really nice clean and fast. then they encounter more and more of the real life demands X has already faced in the past and they add things to Y. eventually, Y is just as sluggish and ugly as X and people start complaining about Y be
<wpwrak> ing so horrible, make their own leaner and cleaner Z, etc.
<rafa> wpwrak: then, you also needs the rootfs image.. maybe with busybox, dropbear, etc.. or something light.. I am not sure if debian already builds those minimal rootfs images for different kind of archs
<aisa> +10.
<wolfspraul> owrt will in general be able to build customized rootfses easier, be able to target devices with less ram than oe
<wolfspraul> I think owrt is the better environment to prepare patches for upstreaming, although someone who uses oe to do that may disagree
<wpwrak> rafa: (package granularity) is there a reason why packages could not be broken down into smaller pieces ? too much work ? too complex to do ? opposition from the "core" debian people ?
<wolfspraul> jlime are really cool end-user ready images for Ben NanoNote, and guess what, they use OE! :-)
<wolfspraul> so you go figure what all this means
<wolfspraul> Debian runs as well, but slow IMO
<wolfspraul> Fedora is interested, but 32 MB is below their minimum requirement of 64 MB, and the few 64 MB boards we have were not enough to get them started
<wpwrak> rafa: i wouldn't use the distro per se to make the rootfs images. thigs like myroot can do this already and they're nicely layered on top of the distro.
<wpwrak> rafa: so the distro makes the packages and nothing else. then you have a rootfs maker than picks the things you want for your device, including UI style and what not.
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes but your logic is not always automatically true
<wolfspraul> sometimes an effort to do everything 'leaner' than the old stuff will only realize later why all that old stuff was needed
<wolfspraul> but sometimes not
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: yes, sometimes someone succeeds in actually being better than all those before :)
<wolfspraul> see the big success of lighttpd, for example
<wolfspraul> (just random example, I hope this doesn't create another long Apache pro/con discussion now...)
<wolfspraul> I think OE is a bit older than openwrt
<wolfspraul> most owrt people at the begining were ex-OE (I'm vague on this, might be wrong)
<wolfspraul> I hope OE, and especially Jlime, is a happy family member of the NanoNote family
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: hmm, i use awhttpd. i suppose that doesn't put me in the camp of enthusiastic apache supporters ;-)
<rafa> wpwrak: I would do the same like you.. I would like to see a complete repository of packages for small devices, with the last versions of open source software, like debian has for PC. Then I would use something like your rootfs maker which picks stuff from the repository to build a complete image.
<wolfspraul> if not, we need to do more to make them happy
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: alright, one step at a time. let's first make them happy. so for you to be happy with making them happy, they have to make tuxbrain happy by avoiding the patented stuff.
<wolfspraul> before my next reflashing round, I want to apply the lessons learnt in the last 1k reflash action
<wolfspraul> for that I think I need a few weeks at least
<wolfspraul> need to look into some initramfs issues, and some usb hug related bugs
<aisa> This reminds me, I have just updated my NN to the latest tracking_backfire,
<aisa> and I expected to find many more bugs than I did find.
<aisa> Can someone remind me of the problem we're having in the current image?
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: (btw, my reason for pushing towards a more feature-complete disto is that i consider the ben basically as a pc. in fact, except for the screen resolution, it runs circles around my first linux pc. and that was a "serious" workstation at that time.)
<aisa> I thought it was things like 'strace --help' crashing.
<wolfspraul> SDL not working
<wolfspraul> if you boot, try starting dgClock, for example
<aisa> from the command-line?  got it.
<wolfspraul> NanoMap is qt-based, I think it works
<wolfspraul> command line?
<aisa> Rather than gmenu2x.
<wolfspraul> you built your own image? well I'm not exactly sure then what you selected.
<aisa> I'm running config.full_system on my NN right now.
<wolfspraul> remember this: NanoMap is qt-based, imgv uses SDL
<aisa> isn't qt SDL backed?
<wpwrak> rafa: so, to remove these codecs from jlime, would you know what to do ? would the other jlime people agree with having such an option ? would this option be something that could be merged into OE upstream ? and, last but not least, is there anyone who'd actually have the time and skills to do it ? :)
<wolfspraul> if you can get both to work, the bug is fixed
<aisa> or is our qt running X?
<aisa> got it.  NanoMap & imgv must both work, or there is a bug :-)
<wolfspraul> config.full_system uses a framebuffer, no X
<wolfspraul> so qt also on fb
<wpwrak> rafa, wolfspraul: one issue with codec removal: for those who want the questionable codecs, what would be an acceptable way to provide them ?
<wolfspraul> that's a legal question
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: that's why i'm asking you ;-)
<wolfspraul> to the best of my knowledge, _links_ is what will set them off
<wolfspraul> so let's say a distributor in Europe is selling the device
<wolfspraul> the device has a URL 'qi-hardware.com' printed on it
<wolfspraul> nothing on the qi-hardware.com or affiliated servers must point towards the patented stuff
<wolfspraul> or the other way roudn - the people running the qi-hardware.com servers have the responsibility to avoid patent infringement
<wpwrak> including irc or mailing list archives ?
<wolfspraul> for a forum, this can mean to remove posts that explain how to do it
<wolfspraul> for a wiki, same
<wolfspraul> yes sure
<wolfspraul> it's a legal thing
<wolfspraul> it must be reasonably doable of course
<wpwrak> so it's active or passive (by not acting) endorsement
<wolfspraul> I wouldn't push it though. if the wiki homepage has a big link "how to enable mp3", and you think you can get away with "we would have removed it after notification from sisvel, it's a wiki", that's very very risky
<wolfspraul> that's all legal stuff
<wolfspraul> you cannot be 100% sure until after the whole court case is over
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wpwrak> yeah, that would be too obvious :)
<wolfspraul> another option would be to distance the device from qi
<wolfspraul> 'unbrand it'
<wolfspraul> the thinking always starts with the last guy selling (actually importing) the device into a patent-infected country
<wpwrak> but that wouldn't help tuxbrain who sells a bundle, would it ?
<wolfspraul> that guy has a legal responsibility to not infringe, and to not cowork with people who infringe
<wolfspraul> well
<wolfspraul> imagine the device is totally no-name
<wolfspraul> tuxbrain could say they have nothing to do with qi-hardware.com
<wpwrak> yup. like the pulster incident
<wolfspraul> of course then there must be no link from tuxbrain.com to qi-hardware.com, anywhere
<wolfspraul> but right now, with qi-hardware.com printed on the device, these ideas are worthless anyway
<wolfspraul> and tuxbrain.com has tons of links to Qi
<wolfspraul> and if Tuxbrain would really have to remove all this, and stop talking about it, I'm also not so sure how this could work out
<wpwrak> yup. this may just create too much confusion
<wolfspraul> at some point it really does become underground, and then the MP3 'capability' also looses its value
<wpwrak> when will the patents expire ? in ~2 years ?
<qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add 'rm -f fped' to make clean http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/9e2ee45
<qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add debian package stuff http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/731491f
<wolfspraul> according to wikipedia in a few years, yes
<wolfspraul> I doubt sisvel will do much to enlighten anybody about this
<wolfspraul> in fact they will probably increase their scare tactics towards the end
<wpwrak> btw, regarding patent expiration. you mentioned that MIPS vs. china case. do you know what went wrong there ?
<wolfspraul> anyway, that's speculation
<wolfspraul> I don't know when they expire.
<mth> but isn't it the device manufacturer that can be forced to license patents rather than the hardware designer?
<wpwrak> i suppose it will be headline news when they do. then wait a bit to see if there are any traps.
<mth> if I understood your explanation a while ago, Qi Hardware doesn't manufacture
<wolfspraul> you think a Chinese company can be forced to do anything? especially from a Western company?
<wolfspraul> 80% of the world are not patent infected
<wpwrak> mth: i think it's basically that you can attack whoever is in the chain.
<wolfspraul> so this is a system some rich countries created because they think it helps them
<rafa> wpwrak: maybe one easy fix could be removing the codecs for main rootfs image, and the system should not have any link to download packages or visit official web sites. If the user wants codecs he will need to check the web. If that would be useful then we would not need to merge that into OE. We just build the image (with OE perhaps) and then we fix it with some "clean" task/script/whatever. If you want to know if we could do a work like : one OE version
<mth> they won't pressure the Chinese company, but they'll try to stop the devices from being imported into a country which does enforce patents
<wolfspraul> mth: yes right, but we are talking about legal responsibilities now.
<wolfspraul> tuxbrain sells
<wolfspraul> device has 'qi-hardware.com' printed on it
<wolfspraul> user enters 'qi-hardware.com', and is greeted by big announcement "click here to learn how to install mp3"
<wolfspraul> that would be a pretty easy case for sisvel
<wpwrak> a system some lawyers in rich countries maintain because their villas, sports cars, and alimony for ex-trophy-wives prove that it helps them. somehow :)
<wolfspraul> tuxbrain would be the one to either license the patents, or refuse to resell that product until the manufacturer does
<wolfspraul> mth: yes correct.
<wpwrak> rafa: so that would be basically what tuxbrain did, just automated
<mth> wolfspraul: I mean someone could use Qi's design and sell a device with MP3 capabilities by installing a modified firmware or giving the users an easy way to do so
<mth> putting precompiled binaries on qi-hardware.com is probably asking for trouble
<mth> even if you'd win in the end, it would be time and money consuming
<wolfspraul> even sources, although the most important are instructions
<rafa> wpwrak: maybe we could provide two rootfs image versions: current one and another one with "clean" stuff for resellers :)
<wolfspraul> think from a normal end user, they try to plug that hole
<mth> afaik the LAME project didn't have problems spreading sources
<wolfspraul> ah
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> I need to go sleep
<wolfspraul> the patent industry has learnt
<wolfspraul> no more gif
<wolfspraul> why go after broke college kids which will only make you unpopular
<wolfspraul> so of course all free software is 'exempt' nowadays
<wolfspraul> ha ha
<wolfspraul> no money there anyway!
<wpwrak> so ther ehas to be a clear organizational separation between qi-hw and tuxbrain on one side and jlime on the other. that is, as long as jlime hosts patented packages or sources.
<rafa> mth: the problem is not the software I guess, the seller selling machines with that kind of software will get into troubles
<wolfspraul> and even better, the free software kids now help them spread their technology to people who have money, and who are worth milking
<wolfspraul> and in the end the college kids pay again, because the tax is built into any electronic they buy
<wolfspraul> much much better than the gif chaos
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: correct that was the old plan
<mth> rafa: yes, someone spreading device + software will have to pay for the patents in some countries, until we get more sane laws or all relevant patents have expired
<wpwrak> or keep jlime perfectly clean and have an underground jlime-pirates organization that makes those packages
<mth> I don't know about the USA, but in Europe pure software is not patented, but some combinations of device + software are
<wpwrak> maybe assange's looking for a job soon :)
<wolfspraul> a patent is a patent, there is no need to put a big title "software patent" on it
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: would that old plan still work ?
<rafa> wpwrak: do you know what do other companies do? for example IIRC dell was selling machines with ubuntu.. They just pay money to do that?
<wolfspraul> it needs to be connected to a machine, so it can only be enforced once some piece of hardware comes into play
<wolfspraul> canonical is paying
<rafa> wpwrak: what would you like to see?.. for example.. if you sell machines.. you will not be able to sell machines in USA or europe if you want to sell those with debian (for example)
<wolfspraul> of course only for them, i.e. if you put the same ubuntu on a machine and sell it they will come after you still...
<wpwrak> rafa: unless you or your upstream or your distributors pays the patent parasites
<rafa> wpwrak: and how could we use debian?.. would that be useful?.. debian is huge.. and it would be a mess to try to use it without codecs
<wpwrak> rafa: why would debian minus codecs be more of a mess than jlime minus codecs ?
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: paying them is not that easy actually
<wolfspraul> that's another story
<wolfspraul> they will demand that you take the license for all your products, for their future innovations, and so on and so on
<wolfspraul> whatever they can squeeze into you, and they have thought about that for a long time
<rafa> wpwrak: well, debian is bigger I guess and a lot more of people involved than oe
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: lovely :) where are they ? palermo ? :)
<wolfspraul> plus a 6-figure down-payment into their account, in case you go bankrupt
<wolfspraul> and so on
<wpwrak> so what happened in the pulster incident ? did you ever get these devices out of customs ?
<wolfspraul> I guess they get away with all this legally.
<qi-bot> [commit] Xiangfu Liu: add ITP bug number to 'debian/changelog' http://qi-hw.com/p/fped/b0062ee
<wolfspraul> for some magic reason this is not called 'extortion'
<wpwrak> rafa: ah, you mean a bigger mess to get people to agree on the plan. well, perhaps. i wonder if this isn't on their radar already. debian tends to be very sensitive about legal issues.
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: I think in the end yes. I'm sure pulster had to sign all sorts of crazy agreements, need to ask him if he wants to talk about it...
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: just like patenting something isn't called plain old theft, even though it is
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: yes but Debian is software only, 'exempt'
<wolfspraul> (not very generous considering that software-only infringements cannot be enforced, and the infringers would not have enough money to be worth going after anyway)
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: yes, but it hits anyone bundling debian with hardware. so it would be reasonable for them to care
<wolfspraul> ahh
<wolfspraul> the 'free software is exempt' strategy works quite well
<wolfspraul> you can try to argue with them :-)
<wolfspraul> I was very happy that OpenWrt did have a soft ear for our troubles.
<wpwrak> you tried  ? so they don't understand the issue ? or they do but still don't care ?
<wolfspraul> You can read between the lines that Jlime/OE is struggling with the same issues.
<wolfspraul> "is this really our problem?"
<wolfspraul> "software patents don't exist"
<wolfspraul> "free software is exempt, look here what they say..."
<wolfspraul> etc.
<wolfspraul> well I tried successfully with Owrt, done
<wolfspraul> with OE (Jlime) - in process - see above
<wolfspraul> Debian, no, never tried
<wpwrak> i'm not sure this is the issue with jlime. i think the situation is pretty clear. but people may simply not be aware of it.
<wolfspraul> yes but it's hard to get people to join
<wolfspraul> also because patents are such a mess
<wpwrak> so, where's a debian lobbyist when we need one ? :)
<wolfspraul> new enemies may pop up out of thin air
<wolfspraul> it's depressing to think about it logically
<wolfspraul> it is not logical
<wolfspraul> same as a street robbery is not logical
<wolfspraul> I just need mp3/mpeg4/h.264 removed right now
<wolfspraul> more 'as needed' :-)
<wolfspraul> if you are very rich, there are many many more
<wolfspraul> see the nonsense the large corps have to pay all the time, like RIM, Microsoft, etc.
<wolfspraul> the only thing that protects Tuxbrain from most patents is that it has no money
<wpwrak> it's a pity that they closed that loophole that artificial islands can no longer become souvereign states. otherwise, i'd have a nice revenge phantasy.
<wolfspraul> patents only affect about 20% of people
<wolfspraul> it's a social system for lawyers
<wolfspraul> there are other social systems as well, so let's just get on with it :-)
<wpwrak> create two long thin islands in the atlantic and the pacific. build tall wall, too high to fly over them. implement laws that treat involvement with patent much like some asian and middle eastern coutries trear illegal drugs. build nice airports to tunnel through the wall, us-style with immigration and emigration. put the names from the various patent databases in that countries' terrorist database. wait for the first planes to land an
<wpwrak> d have the firing squads ready.
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: now we outlasted anybody else with this conversation! -)
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> I need to go sleep...
<wpwrak> let's hope something good crawls out of it :)
<wpwrak> (the conversation)
<wolfspraul> I think we have a fairly solid plan.
<wolfspraul> just need to see how/where Jlime fits.
<wolfspraul> there are multiple spots, let's see what works best for them
<wolfspraul> then we'll do that
<wpwrak> yup. it's all about sustainability
<wolfspraul> aisa: hope you are not shocked about this endless conversation
<wolfspraul> wpwrak and I get carried away sometimes
<wolfspraul> I'll try to finish the news stuff in the wiki tomorrow, then we can go from there
<wpwrak> rafa: so ... has all this helped, to clarify things or otherwise ? :)
<aisa> wolfspraul: I was in a meeting.
<aisa> I'll have to catch up to know whether I'm shocked.
<rafa> wpwrak: yes, it clarified why qi can not have any mention about jlime I guess. Now, I would do the next proposal to jlime: we write a script which picks the jlime image and does a new jlime rootfs image clean of codecs, clean of jlime links. Maybe that is useful for resellers, and also some users could know that jlime has a distribution for nn.
<rafa> wpwrak: no sure if we should remove the stuff from our repositories and OE. I mean, as example, for users like me, I like to use Debian like it is .. so I guess that we like to use jlime like it is. But on the other hand if qi is the only start point for all the people with nn,
<rafa> then it can be hard for users to know if there are options to use.
<wpwrak> rafa: i'm actually not sure if qi-hw would have to avoid mentioning jlime. it may be sufficient not to mention the problem packages.
<wpwrak> rafa: it all really depends on what wolfgang and tuxbrain fell comfortable with. as wolfgang has said, there's no guarantee that you won't be attacked no matter how careful you are
<rafa> wpwrak: that I really would like to avoid is, and that is a concern for me is: if some new user wants to use nautilus, and he only wants to test it.. then today he will try to port allllllll the libs nautilus needs to openwrt. If he wants to help with openwrt then that is great and I love all that hard work, because I would do that. BUt, if he just wanted to test that.....
<rafa> man.. I have seen some people trying to build stuff for many days.. just because they wanted to test.. and they just were thinking that it is the only way they have.
<rafa> That is not nice I guess.
<wpwrak> yes. i think quite a lot of that sort of repetitions is happening here. people get the ben, see that openwrt is the distro, find their favourite package is missing, and then work on porting it.
<rafa> it is just an example. Still if nautilus will not be useful on nn.. why he would suffer many days trying to build stuff just to test. I would like that he knows that some distributions already have packages to install
<wpwrak> while that makes openwrt stronger, it may draw development resources from more interesting tasks
<rafa> yes, I would like that users know both things : that if they just want to test/use stuff there are options to use packages already built. And that if they want to help to openwrt then they need to work to do openwrt stronget, which is a great thing .
<rafa> stronget=stronger
<aisa> Since our Asian developers presumably just went to bed.  (Or should have) who is left?
<aisa> It is still morning for me, and I'd like a sense of who hangs out here during my daytime,
<aisa> so I know who to pester.
<aisa> I'm working on packages and the base system for the NanoNote, and I'm in the Southwestern USA.
<wpwrak> buenos aires, 13:30 here. brunch time soonish :)
<aisa> wpwrak: You're not the only one down that way, I believe.
<qi-bot> [commit] carlos: Adding serial flash to FPGA http://qi-hw.com/p/nn-usb-fpga/d9b9e52
<wpwrak> aisa: naw, not by far. e.g., rafa lives just a few blocks away
<aisa> I used to work with two developers in Montevideo.
<aisa> wpwrak: What kinds of things do you work on here?
<aisa> rafa: same question to you, what are you working on here?
<wpwrak> aisa: right now, qi-hw is my fulltime hobby :)
<aisa> Very nice.  What portion do you specialize in?
<aisa> or do you do it all?  :-)
<wpwrak> aisa: before, kernel and general low-level stuff at openmoko. before that, other kernel stuff. never for local clients, though. not much technical work going on here, i'm afraid
<rafa> aisa: :) ... right now qi-sw is almost my fulltime hobby.. jlime is my full time :)
<wpwrak> luckily, we have the internet :)
<aisa> rafa: Are you hoping to see Jlime become an "official NanoNote image" or are you happy with how things are now?
<rafa> aisa: I need a related job.. so if you know just tell me !
<aisa> I used to work at a company that hired globally.  I'm not currently, not right now anyway.  I will remember this anyway.
<rafa> aisa: official nanonote image is not our business, so we are happy so far. But it would be more useful if we have more users as well.
<rafa> aisa: but we are okey and enjoy how it is. We prefer to be choosed because people like it
<aisa> good perspective, I had not thought of that.
<kristoffer> wha
<kristoffer> what
<kristoffer> nevermind
<wpwrak> rafa: there's no such thing as "free choice" :) whatever ships with the device will have a big headstart
<aisa> Indeed, most users will not modify the defaults.
<aisa> I think this holds true ever for advanced users.
<aisa> Though clearly at some point it doesn't, because some people run Jlime.
<wpwrak> rafa: also pushing the choice to the customer isn't entirely fair. people will still need some guidance. very very few will possess the information necessary to decide that on their own at that time.
<wpwrak> (and those probably don't care much anyway because they would also know how to switch to a different distro)
<rafa> wpwrak: yes, but I was guessing that (that we prefer people choosing jlime because they like it) because if you use linux surely like to try other distributions/flavors, and also the project started saying that nanonote current users are developers. But I have seeing that no.. that users just use the default distribution and they are not thinking, in a big % of them, if there is or not another option
<rafa> we will see ..
<kristoffer> wpwrak, aisa we cannot influence what software qi want to put on their machines, so we have to fight on quality rather than having a head start.
<wpwrak> rafa: yes, but that's pretty much what is to be expected :)
<wpwrak> kristoffer: but we can influence it :) and why not combine quality and the head start ? :)
<wpwrak> aisa: some people will always experiment. but many just have some specific use in mind. or just don't have the energy/time to change distros (even if it's easy)
<kristoffer> wpwrak, that would be perfect, but as I said its not up to us (<-jlime)
<aisa> kristoffer: I suspect if you handed wolfspraul an image, he'd flash devices for you, up to what you expected to be able to sell.
<aisa> Is that really the limiter?
<kristoffer> aisa, most likely true, but that would also imply that the buyers would be aware of any other option than openwrt. Which isnt the case.
<wpwrak> aisa: imagine. you get the device, experiment around a bit. maybe overcome some obstacles. eventually, you'll realize that the default choice is not the best. but then you'll also have solved the most pressing problems for you. and you'll have invested time into customizing the system. so when you're at the point of making the decision, it will be harder to implement it.
<aisa> This is true.
<aisa> I feel like I'm there right now.
<aisa> I spent the weekend learning enough about my NanoNote to feel comfortable with the device,
<wpwrak> aisa: (limiter) what ?
<aisa> and that I can deeply explore.
<aisa> And I'm concerned that I'll invest a lot of effort into OpenWrt and find I'd rather have done that for Jlime.
<wpwrak> aisa: and at the same time, you may be afraid that jlime may be a dead end because its not officially supported, and thus your effort there would be wasted. very tricky all that
<aisa> wpwrak: Limiter being: Jlime images aren't and won't be available through sharism.cc
<aisa> wpwrak: Yes.
<wpwrak> of course, i understand why wolfgang fears OE. OE was our basis at openmoko. it was unspeakably painful.
<aisa> This was good to hear this morning.
<aisa> As I did not know why we weren't on OE.
<wpwrak> (limiter) well, as long as the patent issues aren't resolved on the jlime side, wolfgang may not feel comfortable to have much in terms of pointers on qi-hw at all
<wpwrak> so jlime will actually be hard to find
<wpwrak> i think one of the problems with the use of OE in OM was that developers were expected to run it. what was missing was a group of maintainers acting as a buffer
<wpwrak> i mean, on my pc, i run ubuntu. but i wouldn't even know (without looking) how to build one of their packages from sources
<wpwrak> so if the complexity of OE is hidden, all is fine. naturally, hiding the complexity has a cost of its own
<wpwrak> e.g., you need to have people who do that "now", and you have to make sure there will be people who do that also in the future
<aisa> I can't quite tell the difference between Jlime and OpenWrt in this regard.
<wpwrak> in OM, people on GUI applications actually used bitbake to build their own software, just as if it was "make". that was because they didn't want to have to worry about library dependencies (of which there were many for those packages) and they were probably also afraid of the (largely imagined) complexity of doing a cross-compilation
<aisa> Is Jlime it's own platform?  Based on OE?  How does it work to build an image?
<wpwrak> then of course, when things went wrong, it wasn't just a small typo in a makefile but some weird failure somewhere in a bitbake run. etc. chaos and mayhem.
<wpwrak> (maintenance) openwrt is more accessible, so the risk is lower
<wpwrak> with jlime/OE, if a meteorite hits the next jlime meeting or if ~2 people lose interest, the whole thing comes apart. so it's very fragile.
<wpwrak> and of course, by keeping it marginalized, that doesn't change. chicken and egg again.
<aisa> I was just thinking that.
<aisa> that fact scares me, which makes me not want to participate, which contributes to the problem.
<wpwrak> if jlime was the "mainstream", one or two people may actually master the complexity of OE and could act as maintainers. that would greatly lower the maintenance risk
<wpwrak> i don't know who does how much with the ben in jlime. rafa is very active but i don't know about the others.
<aisa> From this conversation this morning, I see that I need to learn more about jlime, but I'm more certain I'll stay with OpenWrt.
<aisa> which is a funny position to be in,
<aisa> wanting to get more information but feeling more certain about my decision :/
<wpwrak> certainty is a good thing - while it lasts :)
<aisa> haha.
<kristoffer> hey, Im right here :) please stay to facts if you are going to rant on us/me
<aisa> fact check!
<wpwrak> kristoffer: when i wrote "the others", i was in fact mainly thinking of you ;-) are you working on the ben, too ?
<kristoffer> wpwrak, not currently since Im stuck with bootloader work on j7xx atm.
<wpwrak> kristoffer: but in general yes then. good :)
<kristoffer> 1. first off, simply removing the copyrighted codecs wont magically make jlime into an option
<kristoffer> 2. openwrt is nice for small systems that need to be 100% reliable. OE is nice for machines you are planning to actually use
<wpwrak> (1) why not ?
<aisa> I have that question too.
<kristoffer> wpwrak, yet again im not the person to ask
<wpwrak> (2) agree that OE is much more featureful and more suitable for this kind of device. as i said, i view it as a PC, not as an embedded dish washer controller or such
<wpwrak> (regarding 1) and the issue is mainly patents. not sure if there are copyright issues as well.
<kyak> openwrt is limited in many ways, but it is still enough for me
<kristoffer> I wont go into any OE vs openwrt match really, it all comes down to that we are working from the outside and will need to put out a good product for others to use it. So that is what we are trying todo.
<wpwrak> kyak: you're actually one of the people who make me feel that precious resources are being squandered. just curious, did you come to openwrt with the ben or did you work on openwrt before ? (now my question would be embarrassing if you are some founder/celebrity of openwrt ;-)
<rafa> aisa: one of our goals is to have everything ready to use at jlime.. for example.. you said that you have used several days learning enought about current software in your nn to feel comfortable. Why? is it hard?.. For us, we want to install -> use
<wpwrak> kristoffer: i think OE vs. openwrt is a secondary issue. right now it's openwrt more or less out of the box (with qi-hw working closely with openwrt upstream) vs. jlime
<aisa> rafa: It is because I want to actively develop, so going from source code to compiled and tested code on my NN required me to learn.
<wpwrak> kristoffer: so if jlime was based on openwrt, with a similar number of packages and a similarly polished interface, why not. in fact, it's good if this isn't visible for anyone but the distribution maintainers.
<rafa> aisa: I see.. and what do you want to develop?
<wpwrak> kristoffer: the only issue there is what allows them to get their work done and to make sure there will be distribution maintainers to hide all this from the rest
<aisa> rafa: version 1.0 is to port some Lojban-related software.  My longer term vision is to have a workflow for writing and performing material.
<aisa> I'm working on a longer description of that, that is brief...
<kyak> wpwrak: you are flattering me.. i first used openwrt on my Linksys WRT54GL router (and still using), maybe that's why i found it exciting to play with it on Ben
<kristoffer> wpwrak, I think it all comes down to us prefering OE as a development platform, and with our own GUI (which I like to think is more intuitive). I think you describe it well when you say that end users should just be able to do their work and not think much about how the underlying software actually works. We will also keep closely synced with OE to make sure all work gets merged.
<rafa> wpwrak: we are few guys there nowm and I hope that any bomb/meteorite hits next jlime meeting :) .. but we are there since 2006 maybe.. and now at least four of us have nns.. I am not sure if there are a lot of people in qi working doing openwrt better. Also, remember that we use OE, and if I read well OE has a lot more people working for different kind of mobile devices than openwrt..
<rafa> aisa: wpwrak: so I am not sure if openwrt for nn will be very active in the future.. Are the commits for openwrt coming here as qi-bot?.. if yes.. i do not see a lot of work being made. You can tell me.. well, if qi does not develop openwrt for nn anymore it is becaues nn failed and maybe no more devices will be built.. but then, better for jlime.. I am sure that we will continue improving the software for the current devices sold
<kyak> i think it's great that one can choose between distributions
<kyak> i myself sometimes boot in jlime to check things there
<rafa> kyak: yeah.. and I would like to see more.. but of course.. no many nns around yet
<kyak> rafa: https://dev.openwrt.org/browser actual openwrt development
<kyak> we are just syncing with them from time to time
<kyak> (if i'm right)
<wpwrak> kristoffer: (end users) also most developers i think. just consider how often you become aware of the underlying build process on your desktop linux system. almost nobody strays beyond the package manager.
<rafa> that any= that no any :P
<wpwrak> rafa: not sure how much we see here of openwrt development. i'm sure there's more ben-relevant stuff also in upstream but i don't know if anything specifically made for the ben shows up first here or if people also commit directly into upstream.
<wpwrak> rafa: also, there's pretty much zero jlime development activity visible on this channel ;-)
<rafa> haha.. well, actually I just see your commits.. it looks like you are the only one working these days :)
<kyak> if it's not his job, i'd say he's the only one NOT working these days :)
<kristoffer> wpwrak, we try not to spam qi-hard.. with our development. We try and limit it to announcements and the occasional problem that arises.
<kyak> wpwrak: really, how do you have so much time to devote to ben development?
<wpwrak> kristoffer: yup, that good. i was just making fun of rafa's metric :)
<kristoffer> wpwrak, :D
<wpwrak> kyak: oh, continuing a bit with the habit of pretending i can afford it :) i spent about a year trying to get a successor for the openmoko freerunner off the ground. so what's a few more months.
<wpwrak> eventually, material reality will catch up with me too, though. i'm already getting more careful about not putting too many things on my plate.
<kyak> a hungry engineer is a terrible thing :)
<kyak> unless your plate is metaphorical
<wpwrak> food is cheap and plentyful in argentina :) so it's the metaphorical plate :)
<rafa> aisa: interesting.. (about Lojban).. well, when you want to start please tell us.. we have different ways to have software built for jlime.. so if that is useful for more people we can help you to have it into jlime as well (different ways: we build packages using OE, but users can build packages using a jlime toolchain or if they are traveling they can build software in nn as well.. installing gcc, make, and friends..)
<aisa> rafa: thank you.  I have one package build, but not fully useful yet.  And a couple more packages I'll be porting in the short time from now.
<kyak> hm, i wonder why openwrt's gcc for compiling on target depends on TARGET_x86
<kyak> at the same time, binutils and make seem to build fine for mips
<methril_work> wpwrak, i misss gta02-core project lately
<wpwrak> methril: you mean you didn't pay attention lately or that there was nothing to pay attention to lately ?
<methril_work> wpwrak, i mean i didn't pay attention lately :)
<wpwrak> methril: ah well, it's been eerily silent for the last months. zero progress on the components, so i don't expect anything to happen there anymore.
<wpwrak> methril: i've been having fun with the ben, and everyone else stopped even before. so it doesn't look as if much would come out of this anymore :-(
<methril_work> wpwrak, what do you think about the Beagle Hybrid project? started by pulster?
<methril_work> and friends
<methril_work> are you involved?
<wpwrak> no, i'm not involved. dunno really. it's nice that they're managing all the technology, but i don't know how open it is
<methril_work> i hope to get an "open" modern phone some day ;)
<methril_work> i would bought a gta02-core, but unfortunately the project is not evolving anymore
<methril_work> but i'm more aligned with qi-hw, so i'll put my effort here too
<wpwrak> qi-hw shows more promise of getting something done. less complexity and a more thorough approach towards openness.
<tuxbrain_away> methril_work: the beagle-OM thing is promoted by Golden delicious computer not pulster
<methril_work> ups !! thank you tuxbrain_away
<methril_work> i don't want to make confusion :)
<tuxbrain_away> and I agree with wpwrak, I bet one NN than qi will create a phone product earlier than this aproach, and by product not mean a hackish thing to play,  mean a final user product than also will be free, or at least the free as it can be
<tuxbrain_away> maybe it will be simplier, but also be sure it will be orders cheaper
<tuxbrain_away> btw happy to see you so active in qi now :)
<methril_work> i'm coming back :)
<methril_work> i'm happy to see your success ;)
<methril_work> really good work
<tuxbrain_away> heheeh success ??? I'nm still poor
<methril_work> you convince me to come to this community :)
<methril_work> but happy?
<methril_work> who is rich here?
<tuxbrain_away> sure I feel very very confortable here and I'm learning a lot
<methril_work> this is nice
<methril_work> :)
<tuxbrain_away> now I know conjures about SPI and bitbanging, also reading grimoires of microcontrolers.... and having a new master to learn .. archimagician werner
<methril_work> hehehehe
<methril_work> needs to learn a lot of conjures about Verilog HDL to help Milkymist
<tuxbrain_away> yep, but I need to gain some experience points to jump level to read FPGA grimoires ,
<methril_work> well, you are getting a lot of experience points :)
<tuxbrain_away> you know, pure marketing :)
<methril_work> also kneel down to the archimagician werner
<methril_work> i don't think so, you are getting a better hw hacker ;)
<tuxbrain_away> ok remember I redirect to your when I been asked for recomendation, I miss you man
<methril_work> i miss you too
<tuxbrain_away> (enter romatinc music here)
<methril_work> hehehehe
<tuxbrain_away> I will try to hack on SD after some changes on tuxbrain site (i hope this week will be enough) , then summon black forces of ATmega demons and NN registers
<methril_work> are you going to port the arduino API to the BenNN?
<larsc> ~>
<larsc> woops
<wpwrak> grmbl. defeated by my own genius. the program i wrote to transform mill coordinates cleverly calculates the clearance based on the maximum point in the toolpath. alas, in some cases, that's just the bottom, which can be fairly deep. and wham goes to mill hitting the piece at full speed. luckily, nothing broke.
<wpwrak> larsc: i guess before too long, we'll get tuxbrain's breakout board kernel driver :)
<tuxbrain> wpwrak: ETA for tuxbrain breakout board kernel driver: just after Xue release :P
<tuxbrain> I don't want to eclipse any open project :P
<tuxbrain> open-> already open
<tuxbrain> methril_work: If by arduino API you mean program/compile/and flash an sketch trough NN this has been already achieved on debian and with serial port.
<tuxbrain> but need soldering the board and that is not elegant.
<methril_work> tuxbrain, i was thinking of using the same sw in arduino and nanonote
<tuxbrain> goal now is do it on jlime/openwrt trough SDIO
<methril_work> like a lib
<tuxbrain> again this was done
<methril_work> linking with a lib, and getting the same result that you could get with other Arduino boards
<methril_work> ok, then you could attract some Arduino hobbistics to NN!! ;)
<tuxbrain> mmmmm but you should need at least some accecible gpio on NN
<tuxbrain> well more than the few actually avaible
<methril_work> not in Ben, what maybe in SIE
<methril_work> ?
<tuxbrain> Due I will need a micro to spi->uart , and I'm plenti of ATmega328 I will use that one for the fists fase
<tuxbrain> yes SIE is more suitable to such goal
<tuxbrain> but step by step
<methril_work> Atmega328 has USB port?
<tuxbrain> and actually my sie is on other hands
<tuxbrain> no but has SPI interface
<tuxbrain> I will converte SDIO on SPI interface o NN
<tuxbrain> on NN
<methril_work> nice!!
<tuxbrain> so NN will talk directly to the atmega
<tuxbrain> (in theory)
<wpwrak> hmm. 1.6 mm pcb into usb doesn't connect nicely. nominal thickness is about 2 mm and you notice the missing 0.4 mm. grmbl.
<wpwrak> can even be 2.36-2.92 mm. ah well, some plastic plus superglue then ...
<tuxbrain> then option a) make the own atmega powered breakout board an arduino it self, but due I will maintain same form factor as werner, I will sure go to option b) search for a smaller cheaper atmega compatible with 328 and with also spi/uart and do a SD to connect any 5V/3,3V module that has Uart interface... , maybe is there is some room on that uSD adapter we can enable as much as IOs possible of that small atmega and be able to to reflash it directly
<tuxbrain> from NN to have a miniArduino like  in additon but this is a plus, and very far away on the schedule, but due we also can directly plug an arduino board to SD and communicatereprogram it through spi a with few discrete components as far as I can see by now, this has more chances to happen sooner
<methril_work> bbl
<methril_work> time to go home
<tuxbrain> by
<tuxbrain> bye
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: you can just take an atmega48
<wpwrak> if you want to add simple stuff, like some leds, connect a series of gpios to 0603 footprints.
<wpwrak> e.g., if you have gpio P1 through P3 and footprints F1 and F2, then F1.1 = P1, F1.2 = F2.1 = P2, F2.2 = P3   (Fx.y, x = footprint/component number, y = pin of that component)
<wpwrak> but it's probably better to keep things simple on that little board. you don't want to load it with lots of things. just increases the risk of someone breaking stuff.
<tuxbrain> wpwrak ok agree, sorry I'm on mindstorm phase, having the serial functionality is far than enough, if people want a lot of gpios ready to be used though NN just buy an Arduino UNO , a simple breakout board and start play.
<tuxbrain> or a SIE board :)
<wpwrak> you can always make board variants later. or maybe even sell pre-cut copper-clad boards. that way, people who know how to etch and solder can make their own.
<wpwrak> and yes, there are even more profitable options :)
<tuxbrain> btw: as part of the mindstorm phase, I saw  that there is an realtive cheap arduino shield that is able to provide partial usb host capabilities though spi http://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/DevTools/Arduino/USBHostShield-v12i.pdf, mmmm this should be easily extrapolated to the future sd spi nanonote interface isn't it?
<wpwrak> heh, crazy chip:) yup, you could indeed use that one to implement a usb host
<tuxbrain> mmmmm not sounds so a bad an USB->uSd interface :)
<wpwrak> not trivial, thogh. you also need a boost converter to supply 5 V for VBUS
<wpwrak> and i'd be worried about mechanical issues. with usb, you have quite some lever
<tuxbrain> external source , and fexible cable
<wpwrak> external source is messy
<wpwrak> flexible cable ... hmm, maybe
<tuxbrain> pluguin a ungry USB device to NN is crazy, is a 850mAh batt, you will need external source
<wpwrak> if you have an external 5 V source it's most likely something USB-ish too. so you could feed the Ben from it
<wpwrak> and the ben could then pass it on. only ~ 100 mA, of course
<wpwrak> otherwise you need some fancy cable
<tuxbrain> and also what will be the speed , sdio will reach 1Mbps though spi maybe as arduino?
<wpwrak> you can use the ben's clock and save the crystal. that's good.
<wpwrak> yeah, something like 1 Mbps sounds reasonable. didn't really measure the timing
<tuxbrain> I thing enough to 1.1USB then , good :)
<tuxbrain> knowledge is cruel hungry bitch, more you feed it the more it wants, ok enough procrastinating, lets do some boring web manteinance
<wpwrak> you could design this such that you first plug the board on the cable/device, then insert it into the ben. make the case such that it extends to the surface on which the ben resides.
<tuxbrain> wpwrak: cleaver :)
<wpwrak> so you could use usb memory, wlan, bt, and such.
<tuxbrain> wpwrak: after you finish wpan, work on this one and you will be not only a hero , a super fu&$ing greatest even hero on the NN community
<wpwrak> unfortunately, the usb receptacle is too thick to fit under the board. so it has to be on top. it would go well above then ben's keyboard.
<wpwrak> ;-)
<rafa> tuxbrain: ha!!!.. he is already a hero I see... we need to find him super hero clothing ! :)
<rafa> yeah!.. but that is very light..
<rafa> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/HardwareM0.jpg .. but you need some gym to be comfortable with that on you :P
<tuxbrain> change that knife for a beer, and the chain with a solder iron, and that what Imagine wpwrak
<tuxbrain> that is how I imaginte wpwrak
<tuxbrain> or at lest his 15m bronze estatue
<wpwrak> rafa: i notice that he uses quite a lot of metal to keep that belly in. so that may work :-)
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: ;-))
<rafa> ;-))
<rafa> tuxbrain: if we will use bronze then we need to hide it a bit here.. people used to steal every thing on the streets with bronze
<tuxbrain> bronce or cooper?
<rafa> tuxbrain: bronce. btw, if you have visited Rome and you are okey how the people drives there, how they park the cars.. and how mess is the city.. then you will be comfortable when you visit buenos aires :).. it
<tuxbrain> well whatever, wpan= bronze, wpan+usb host=silver, wpan+usbhost+ethernet=gold :)
<rafa> was very similar to buenos aires ( I have not visited many cities in europe, but from the few ones I did Rome was most like BA :D
<rafa> tuxbrain: good rank
<wpwrak> wpan is actually the hardest of the three :) and i'm not sure you really want ethernet. you almost certainly have some kind of pc around anyway. so  2 x wpan.
<tuxbrain> wpan+usbhost+ethernet+serial: platinum :P
<rafa> haha :D
<wpwrak> (gold, platinum, etc.) if you would send a few material sample my way, then i'd be more than willing to implement whatever crazy peripheral you can dream up :)
<tuxbrain> ethernet= an emergency micro server, network analizer, some ahem (I will not repeat this in publica again, ARP spoofing....)
<tuxbrain> you know is only matter of money not matter of will :P
<wpwrak> naw, the emergency server doesn't make sense. totally different type of device.
<wpwrak> same problem everywhere, i guess :)
<wpwrak> network analyzer. dunno. the ben may be a bit fragile for this, particularly if you hang things off the uSD slot
<wpwrak> (emergency server) a more sensible form factor would be a "brick". if you have lots of things you need to configure, maybe add display and touch screen.
<tuxbrain> is also thinking.... SPI allos bus, arduino also connects SD reader +ethernet to SPI, so we don't have to loose tha hability to read an sd on those crazy dongles :)
<tuxbrain> well let's stop
<wpwrak> but i think those wall wart type of small pcs that are popping up everywhere would be quite ideal for this kind of use
<wpwrak> spi->arduino->uSD. boldly explore entirely new universes of slowness ;-)
<tuxbrain> yes yes, nn is not for that porpuse, and once spi is integrated enough in the NN idiosicracy , a breakout board and good howto will fit for those who wants ethernet :P
<tuxbrain> as our mater and mentor wolfi says:focus
<tuxbrain> mater->master
<wpwrak> yeah :)
<wpwrak> ben -> 3.3V/5V serial should be quite trivial
<wpwrak> ben -> USB host feasible, but significantly harder. more like in the order of wpan
<tuxbrain> bite me , trivial for you f&%ng b$%&rd
<tuxbrain> you know how break  the spirit of a wannabe
<tuxbrain> :P
<tuxbrain> that's why I will work on serial, and you will work on USB :P
<wpwrak> alright, let's say "easy" :)
<tuxbrain> and that's why people will end up puttinga usb-serial adaptor heeheheh
<wpwrak> yeah, if you solve ben->usb,. you implicitly solve ben -> rs232 :)
<wpwrak> well, if that host is really good for that. not sure how far it can go
<wpwrak> those cute little spi-attached things from maxim often have nasty limitation
<wpwrak> or wait, maybe that was microchip
<wpwrak> anyway, that one may have nasty limitations as well
<tuxbrain> well is matter of try, put a breadboard, plug the maxim chip, plug NN and , start pluging devices :), in NN soft part? also drivers has to be implemented isn't it?
<tuxbrain> well time to sleep, more interesting dreams tonights, a giant boring web things TODO list chasing for me , meanwhile I hide on weak refuge mado of "wanna do" in land of procrastination
<tuxbrain> mado ->made off
<tuxbrain> good k8
<wpwrak> tuxbrain: (sw) yes, needs a driver too, it seems
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: are you implementing usb client capabillities of wpan in a fpga?
<kristianpaul> runs away
<wpwrak> does this look like an fpga ? :) http://projects.qi-hardware.com/schhist/atusb/pdf_head/USB.pdf
<kristianpaul> may be a CPLD ;)
<kristianpaul> wpwrak: just kidding was the only thing i got after read the backlog
<kristianpaul> error: src refspec master does not match any.
<kristianpaul> error: failed to push some refs to 'git@projects.qi-hardware.com:ben-gps-sdr.git'
<kristianpaul> O_o..
<kristianpaul> i just followed indeferon instructions..
<kristianpaul> WTF it seems it worked knw i can clone it..
<kristianpaul> s/knw/now
<kristianpaul> :/
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: http://paste.debian.net/93307/
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: and?
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: i cant push
<kristianpaul> i folled indefero instructions as you see
<kristianpaul> sorry my only git experience was in github and i dint have this issue before
<wolfspraul> looks like your local git config is messed up
<wolfspraul> try with a new, empty directory
<wolfspraul> mkdir ben-gps-sdr
<wolfspraul> etc.
<kristianpaul> ok
<wolfspraul> the errors you get there are all local errors, I believe
<wolfspraul> you can disconnect from the network and I think you will still get those errors :-)
<kristianpaul> error: src refspec master does not match any.
<kristianpaul> error: failed to push some refs to 'git@projects.qi-hardware.com:ben-gps-sdr.git'
<kristianpaul> with new directory
<wolfspraul> ah you pushed something already?
<kristianpaul> no
<kristianpaul> empty
<kristianpaul> i just was following indefero instruction to initialze the repo
<wolfspraul> hmm
<wolfspraul> should we just delete whatever was pushed to the server so far?
<wolfspraul> you may have run a lot of commands and it's harder to track down the source than to start over
<kristianpaul> so delete project and start over again?
<wolfspraul> you tell me
<wolfspraul> did you commit something already?
<wolfspraul> the repo looks empty on the server
<kristianpaul> no i dont
<kristianpaul> dint*
<wolfspraul> I'll delete it on the server, then you try to commit
<kristianpaul> ok
<wolfspraul> start with an empty dir, put a file inside, git add, git commit, git push
<kristianpaul> ok
<wolfspraul> ok go ahead
<kristianpaul> do i follow the first comming instruction that indefero point?
<wolfspraul> which one?
<wolfspraul> yes, just follow those instructions
<kristianpaul> ok
<wolfspraul> yes looks good
<kristianpaul> ahh now is working
<kristianpaul> was because i had an empty directory :P
<wolfspraul> we could have studied what went wrong in the old git (server) repo, but if you dont' mind we just delete it?
<kristianpaul> thanks
<wolfspraul> (I only moved it aside for now)
<wolfspraul> do you want me to finally delete whatever we had there before?
<kristianpaul> delete
<wolfspraul> k
<kristianpaul> is empty
<wolfspraul> done
<kristianpaul> thanks
<kristianpaul> sorry for the anoying errors
<wolfspraul> aisa: you there?
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: no problem I like those small bugs
<aisa> I am now.
<aisa> wolfspraul: I am now.  ;-)
<aisa> Since my name is what got me here.
<wolfspraul> oh
<wolfspraul> well I hope I don't disturb you
<wolfspraul> about the ben-nanonote branch
<aisa> No, I signed in to say hello.
<aisa> please, give me your feedback.
<wolfspraul> I'm a 100% upstream guy, so I have no time to participate in such a branch
<aisa> Good, this is very helpful to hear.
<wolfspraul> if you want to do it, and especially if there are other who want to join, go ahead
<wolfspraul> I would be careful though.
<aisa> Can you be more specific about your warning?
<wolfspraul> maybe it's a good rule - if you join some new project, the first few weeks (months?), just follow what the others are doing
<wolfspraul> well the danger is that you will just create an abandoned branch
<wolfspraul> you are enthousiastic about it, make all sorts of modifications/customizations (that's what the branch is for)
<wolfspraul> but nobody spends time to merge it upstream
<wolfspraul> how is this sustainable?
<wolfspraul> it can only be sustained by you
<aisa> Indeed, I realize I'm in a position where my ideas may not be right,
<aisa> because of what you just said: I'm new to this project.
<wolfspraul> think this way: realize how small this project is
<wolfspraul> and how many problems we tackle
<wolfspraul> so focus is most important
<wolfspraul> on the openwrt side, there are a few quite active people, for example kyak who's in this channel quite often
<wolfspraul> we should hear his advice too
<wolfspraul> he seemed to like your banner yesterday, and wanted more
<aisa> I will likely need to hear this advice again, please don't be afraid to repeat yourself about it.
<wolfspraul> kyak has been contributing great improvements into openwrt-xburst and openwrt-packages
<wolfspraul> it's funny I look at that tracking_ branch in exactly the opposite way from you
<wolfspraul> I try to find out what is different from upstream, and either get it upstream or delete it :-)
<aisa> Oh?  It would be helpful for me to hear how you perceive it.
<wolfspraul> I wouldn't add one line of code to the diff
<wolfspraul> aisa: what do you think?
<aisa> I'm not sure yet.
<aisa> I think to create the best experience possible on the NanoNote, we'll need to make changes that aren't appropriate for OpenWrt.
<aisa> However,
<aisa> I'm willing to ignore this and favor your advice,
<aisa> and work in the tree under your guidance until I've better understood qi-hardware.
<aisa> You did convince me to stay focused on OpenWrt rather than Jlime, last night.
<wolfspraul> do you have an example for a change that you think is not appropriate for OpenWrt?
<aisa> Yes, I have at least one more.
<aisa> I'd like to modify /etc/config/fstab
<aisa> to include defaults for microSD devices.
<aisa> namely, a vfat and ext2 microSD.
<aisa> and then include various directories under /mnt for each type.
<wolfspraul> you mean to improve auto-mounting?
<aisa> Yes.
<wolfspraul> great!!! I love it.
<wolfspraul> yes that's the kind of small detail improvement we need :-)
<aisa> This is entirely what I have in mind at this point.
<aisa> rather than radical changes.
<wolfspraul> now the first attempt is to do it by using OpenWrt, rather than patching/modifying it
<aisa> My thinking was this:
<aisa> It is very obvious how to do it as a patch to OpenWrt.
<wolfspraul> if that is truly impossible, we should think about the smallest possible modification (enhancement) to OpenWrt, maybe an additional hook, or whatever, and propose that upstream as well
<aisa> it is not immediately obvious how to do it without a patch.
<wolfspraul> (that's much later)
<aisa> however, I hoped that as I worked more with OpenWrt, I would be able to discover new ways of making old ideas work.
<wolfspraul> well you looked into the tech details of this more than me, so you know better
<aisa> and revisit some of the patches and convert them to things that can go upstream.
<wolfspraul> excellent!
<wolfspraul> that's what we have the tracking_ branches for
<wolfspraul> it's exactly that 'upstream or delete' staging area
<aisa> Ok then.
<wolfspraul> so we can move forward, make customizations/improvements today, and fast
<wolfspraul> but we keep in mind that we do not have the resources to maintain an entire OS, so the pressure in the tracking_ branches is to get stuff upstream or to delete it
<aisa> understood.
<wolfspraul> small things like your banner of course should stay
<wpwrak> this sort of integration changes is just what's the problem of distros that try to craft the entire rootfs. they force you to do everything inside their build environment. kinda as if you'd have to put your main() into libc in c programs.
<wolfspraul> ok fair enough. but hopefully the system is flexible enough to allow for easy customization. that's what it's all about I'd say.
<aisa> Ah, I have one other problem right now that I want to fix.
<aisa> the permissions of the files in data/qi_lb60/files
<aisa> are the person building, rather than root,
<wpwrak> a packet-based approach just avoids the issue by leaving all the "glue" to the thing combining stuff. now, one question would be how to go from rootfs-making to package-making
<aisa> or better, rather than being specified.
<wolfspraul> permissions in git, or permissions in the rootfs?
<aisa> the permissions in the rootfs were the permissions in git.
<aisa> unless I did something wrong, of course.
<wolfspraul> ok (I meant you are talking about problems accessing these files in git)
<aisa> no, I can access them fine.
<wolfspraul> go ahead what about the permissions?
<aisa> but they don't go into rootfs correctly.
<aisa> there does not seem to be any step to say "this file should be mode 775"  this file should be owned by root, etc.
<aisa> they're just copied in as-is.
<wolfspraul> he. ok. I would need to look through the sources, but it sounds like it's a meaningful feature and OpenWrt should have a way to specify owner and permissions in the dest rootfs
<wolfspraul> maybe for now we can add a hook somewhere, some sort of 'rootfs post-processing'?
<wolfspraul> then bring it up on the OpenWrt side?
<aisa> I was thinking we could create a package, like base-files,
<aisa> but call it nanonote-files or something,
<aisa> and move this stuff into there.
<wolfspraul> everytime I see 'nanonote' or 'qi' I cringe :-)
<wolfspraul> just fyi
<wolfspraul> because I'm the one deleting all this stuff 2 years later...
<aisa> i can't call it base-files,
<wolfspraul> sure sure, I just give you a brain dump
<aisa> and I can't add it to the base-files package.
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, regarding jlime, if they make a variant that doesn't have the offending codecs, would that be sufficient for making it safe enough to link to them or would you also need them to have no packages with the offending codecs at all ?
<wolfspraul> you should feel free
<aisa> so you give me a better idea or I'm making your cringe ;-)
<wolfspraul> one time someone patched the joe package and called it 'qijoe' (it's still called like that)
<aisa> oh, right.  I did see that I guess.
<wolfspraul> I imagined a horde of hundreds of qi... packages, all broken and unmaintained of course :-)
<aisa> of course.  :-)
<aisa> oh, that reminds me,
<aisa> there is a testing page on the wiki...
<aisa> like "things to do with a new image."
<wolfspraul> really? we have a testplan?
<aisa> not really, I need to improve it.
<wolfspraul> aisa: what about my proposal of a rootfs post-processing script?
<aisa> I think it duplicates package functionality.
<wolfspraul> like I said I look for ways to be as non-intrusive on the OpenWrt side as possible
<aisa> However, do you remember the problem with including gforth in base?
<aisa> rather than it being a package?
<aisa> the gforth package needs a post-install script to run.
<aisa> so if we went with your idea,
<wolfspraul> I would also ask OpenWrt (you sent a pretty nice mail there, let's see whether someone answers, they first have to get to know you...)
<aisa> it has to accept post-install scripts from other places.
<aisa> That was the result of our conversation yesterday.
<aisa> If we want to push upstream to openwrt,
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: no packages, no instructions
<aisa> I need to develop a relationship with upstream.
<wolfspraul> think from their perspective, then it should be clear. they are targeting a company (infringer).
<wolfspraul> one defense strategy for that company is "it's not us"
<wolfspraul> but there needs to be a legally strong enough boundary between that company and whoever is infringing
<wolfspraul> otherwise the company will not get away with that excuse/explanation
<wolfspraul> when the patent lawyer can make a legally usable link between you and the infringement, you are done
<wolfspraul> so it starts with Tuxbrain
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: yes, my question is about what degree of distance is sufficient
<wolfspraul> of course stuff that tuxbrain sells, and how it behaves out of the box
<wolfspraul> then tuxbrain.com
<wolfspraul> anything hosted there
<wolfspraul> binaries
<wolfspraul> instructions
<wolfspraul> links to other websites (!)
<wolfspraul> yeah well. they say "tuxbrain, you infringe"
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: eventually, it's wget and gcc :)
<wolfspraul> tuxbrain says "no, it's not me. how did you find this?"
<wolfspraul> yes true
<wolfspraul> but that is too cryptic, no judge would follow
<wolfspraul> and 'they' (the patent holders) wouldn't care either
<wolfspraul> they do want to make sure that regular people are out, they are the masses anyway and the reason the big corps are paying
<wolfspraul> some fringe hackers will always make it work, nobody cares
<wolfspraul> that's why I say, before you think about 'packages', think about 'instructions' on a website, and links
<wolfspraul> that's how it starts in their logic
<wolfspraul> then there may be an 'installer'
<wolfspraul> download file, install it
<wolfspraul> not good
<wolfspraul> you link to that?
<wolfspraul> not good
<wolfspraul> if there are sources, and you need a very elaborate 100 steps process with cross-compiler and what not, I think you are safe
<wpwrak> so openwrt has no patent-infringing packages at all ?
<wolfspraul> openwrt.org has
<wolfspraul> so there should be no link from qi-hardware.com to openwrt.org
<wpwrak> but there's no link from qi-hw to openwrt.org ?
<wpwrak> ok
<wolfspraul> should!
<wolfspraul> of course I would think there are
<wpwrak> :)
<wolfspraul> one might even argue using the word 'openwrt' is already too much
<aisa> librewrt :-)
<aisa> well, except they're apparently going to have to change it.
<wolfspraul> I could give you a URL that directly points to mp3 capable opkg files, built upstream...
<wolfspraul> so definitely, any link to openwrt.org is dangerous
<wolfspraul> just a few more clicks and you have the opkg
<wolfspraul> and then a few more clicks (well, we have no good installer right now), and you play an mp3
<wolfspraul> sisvel for example has employed technicians/engineers, who try to come up with a way to demonstrate that someone is infringing
<wpwrak> so jlime could just not build an xburst mp3 package ?
<wolfspraul> the lawyers are waiting for these guys to show them the steps
<wpwrak> traitors
<wolfspraul> then the lawyers decide whether they have a case
<wolfspraul> these tech guys of course try to find the _easiest_ steps for their lawyers
<wolfspraul> keep in mind, for the FreeRunner for example, it was really easy :-)
<wolfspraul> the capability was just present right in the out-of-the-box rootfs
<wolfspraul> on the NanoNote, we have no easily usable installer
<wpwrak> sure. that was bad
<wolfspraul> you have to setup a usb/eth interface
<wpwrak> so that's why you like openwrt :)
<wolfspraul> you have to copy the file with scp
<wolfspraul> oh well, if aisa improves auto-mounting maybe microSD would be easier
<wolfspraul> maybe he even adds good fat32 support, then they could use a Windows host
<aisa> fat32 to uboot?
<wolfspraul> then you need to run 2 commands
<wolfspraul> opkg install, and then some console command to play an mp3
<wolfspraul> not sure whether console alone would be a turn-off nowadays
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: hey, there, u awake?
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: you can never be 100% sure whether you are safe or not
<wolfspraul> the key is for the seller in a patent infected country to not 'infringe'
<wolfspraul> him (!) - he must not infringe
<wolfspraul> others can infringe
<wolfspraul> that's the point
<wolfspraul> if the end user infringes - no problem they will not go after them
<wolfspraul> but the seller (rather importer) must not be shown to infringe, otherwise they will come down on him
<wolfspraul> makes sense?
<wpwrak> but he can't really not be sure that he doesn't infringe either
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: is it normal start SIE witht the ADC program showing ramdon values and then got no display refresh from data in A0 or A1
<wolfspraul> we could make total no-brand devices
<wolfspraul> just all black
<wpwrak> that wouldn't solve the problem
<wpwrak> tuxbrain imports them, apparently for some purpose
<wolfspraul> if the seller does not infringe they have no case
<wpwrak> if a judge is willing to follow that line of reasoning, they still get him
<aisa> wolfspraul: I'm heading out soon.  Thank you so much for your feedback, I appreciate you coaching me very much.
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: all was working fine i just restart the board now i the display is like craxy showing data, with no reflesh iw, if in wire analog inputs to GND..
<wolfspraul> ah, thanks. you also make me think about the best way forward. it's great to have you here!
<wolfspraul> well they will never openly explain to you who they go after or not
<wolfspraul> I'm just explaining that 'infringing' thing
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: hmm but it was responding, and please dont respond me in PM !!!
<wolfspraul> who is infringing? that's the key legal question
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: or you want a PM chatting? :)
<wpwrak> exactly
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: i'll try but it is supposed to be done at startup isnt?
<wolfspraul> so let's bring in the real world
<wolfspraul> our sales numbers are very very small
<wpwrak> as long as any level of indirection is considered as not changing things, there's no way to be safe
<wolfspraul> not 'any level'
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: and it was working just i restarted and is gone
<wolfspraul> I explained it to you.
<wolfspraul> it must be legally strong enough
<wolfspraul> they are lawyers, not engineers
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: fpga isn't configured, make sense, thanks
<wolfspraul> gui installer
<wpwrak> which basically depends on the judge's mood
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: sure you can do public irc chatting with pidgin :)
<wolfspraul> or what the patent holders know will work, will work as 'evidence' for the infringement
<wolfspraul> the steps they are outlining is evidence
<wolfspraul> with screenshots etc.
<wolfspraul> click here, click there, bla bla bla
<wpwrak> yes, there are obvious pitfalls. clear instructions. package part of the "official" set hosted at qi-hw or tuxbrain, whatever
<wolfspraul> correct
<wolfspraul> don't think theoretical, or like an engineer
<wolfspraul> if you want to keep the actual risk low, you need to think about how easy it is with your device to infringe
<wolfspraul> the easier it is, the higher your risk that they will single you out
<wpwrak> it's less clear to me if, say, you have the official repository, sans offending packages, e.g. hosted at qi-hw
<wolfspraul> right now we are pretty safe
<wolfspraul> because the technology is still hard to use
<wpwrak> plus a link giving credit to jlime (jlime top-level page)
<wpwrak> and then jlime have a set of packages as well, including the offending one
<wolfspraul> unfortunately they only look at your device from one perspective: "what is the easiest way to get an mp3 to play here"
<wolfspraul> then they need to link those steps to you
<wpwrak> so by that top-level link, do you assume responsibility for anything jlime does ?
<wolfspraul> so if they use google and download an opkg from a russian server (sorry for our russian friends), they have no case
<wpwrak> unless you document the google instructions
<wolfspraul> because your lawyer would say "that's not us", and their case (that you are infringing) is no case
<wolfspraul> so a wiki or forum is borderline
<wolfspraul> a wiki for example needs to be 'governed/policed' in a reasonable way
<wolfspraul> what that exactly is is a bit hard to define
<wolfspraul> again: risk
<wpwrak> yup. if the complain, you certainly have to remove instrucitons or you're in trouble
<wpwrak> anythig beyond that, gray zone
<wolfspraul> if you have a big fat link on your homepage, the risk is that they will fire up their laser printer, and make a nice printout, and add it to the evidence
<wpwrak> sure. obvious trap
<wolfspraul> oh for sure
<wolfspraul> after they notify you, you definitely have to take it down
<wolfspraul> that would be quite gentleman-like actually
<wpwrak> now, how about my example ? you have a qi-hw repository of "safe" jlime packages. by default, the package installer only goes there
<wolfspraul> they could also just collect evidence and hammer down on you one day
<wolfspraul> yes exactly, that's what we have with openwrt
<wpwrak> but jlime have do whatever they like to do on their side, and you merely provide a proper modern-day reference, i.e., a link to jlime (as jlime, not anywhere inside)
<wpwrak> would that sufficient separation to make you feel safe ?
<wpwrak> or safe enough :)
<wolfspraul> if I would be the importer, I would feel safe as long as there is no <a href> link (let's call it 'active link')
<wolfspraul> I would not worry about the word 'Jlime'
<wolfspraul> or 'OpenWrt'
<wolfspraul> but I am not the importer :-)
<wpwrak> but no link to <a href="http://www.jlime.com/">Jlime</A>
<wolfspraul> I think the moment they go via a search engine, or type a url into the browser, they cannot link the infringement to you anymore
<wolfspraul> I would feel safe without such links, yes.
<wolfspraul> those links carry strong legal value in many Western countries nowadays
<wolfspraul> don't ask me, but hey, they understood the concept of 'link' and they think it's a big thing
<wpwrak> yes, unfortunately
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: public chat ok then?
<juan64bits> ok
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: so i think is a bug what i pointed cause right now ADC is reading
<wpwrak> i'm just not sure how many levels of redirection would be required there
<wolfspraul> juan64bits: yeah! :-) don't be worried
<wolfspraul> it's a chaotic place anyway here. you can even write in Spanish if you like.
<kristianpaul> so something FPGA is not programed
<kristianpaul> si español !
<kristianpaul> :)
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: it's not about 'levels of indirection'
<wolfspraul> turn off your engineering mind for a second
<wolfspraul> for them it's a sequence of steps
<wolfspraul> and they need to show that it's always _YOU_ behind those steps
<wpwrak> well, indirections = steps
<wolfspraul> then they can show that _YOU_ are infringing
<wolfspraul> the moment there is even just one step that is not you, they have no case against you
<wpwrak> i don't think they have to show it's you all the time
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: are you aware of SIE file system generation?
<wpwrak> there's that concept that, by linking somewhere, you're approproating the material there
<wolfspraul> that's the best I know
<wolfspraul> oh sure
<wolfspraul> you set the link!
<wolfspraul> of course that is you
<kristianpaul> any way i just found this and want to tell somebody  i guess near or more SIE's
<wpwrak> even if you're not behind the material or even if it didn't exist when you set the link
<wolfspraul> if you set the link, you become responsible for what is going on on the other side
<wolfspraul> otherwise you need to remove the link
<wolfspraul> similar like wiki, forum
<kristianpaul> now i need wire this MSPS ADC, cause i need or buy an scope 10Mhz or use SIE as one :)
<wpwrak> so if you add a link to google ... :)
<juan64bits> kristianpaul wait me a few minutes....
<wpwrak> or www.yahoo.com ...
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: i can for sure :)
<wolfspraul> first I doubt many sites have a link to google, and if they do, I think the (separate) concept of a search engine is understood by every lawyer and judge
<wpwrak> after all, there are yahoo groups and such. chnces are you can find a path that you can just click though without ever entering any text
<wolfspraul> so then you type 'run mp3 on nanonote'
<wolfspraul> and then you find a link pointing to which server?
<wolfspraul> if it's not your server, again, you are not infringing
<wolfspraul> well
<wolfspraul> let's stay in reality
<wpwrak> but then the link to jlime.com or openwrt.org would be okay as well
<kristianpaul> just tell google dont point to us :)
<wolfspraul> they try to proove that you are infringing
<wolfspraul> and normal people need to understand them/believe them
<wpwrak> as long as they don't put the "bad" instructions right on their front page or such
<wolfspraul> what is the difference between that one link or not
<wolfspraul> in the end, you cannot (in reality) have mp3 functionality
<wolfspraul> that's the point
<wolfspraul> all your normal customers will not be able to play mp3
<wolfspraul> you can dance around the legal definitions of 'links' as long as you like
<wolfspraul> the end result will be:
<juan64bits> I'm back
<wolfspraul> 1. you cannot use mp3 in marketing
<wolfspraul> 2. your normal customers will not be able to play mp3, neither out of the box, nor after some installer easy enough for 99% of people to use
<wolfspraul> 3. people such as those in this channel will always be able to run whatever software they like. to them it also doesn't matter which link is where, or how direct the link is.
<wpwrak> yes, good so far
<kristianpaul> juan64bits so as i said i think there is a bug cause something SIE FPGA is not programed
<wolfspraul> ok that's all I have :-)
<wolfspraul> no mp3 out of the box
<kristianpaul> (talking about the ADC demo that came by default it seems)
<wolfspraul> no mp3 installable in ways that would proove that the importer is behind it/endorsing it/linking to it
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: the other question was, how do you generate the root file system for the board?
<wolfspraul> separate package repository
<juan64bits> yes, maybe , but some times is a problem in the board
<wpwrak> endorsing is tricky
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: are you using openwrt to include in the root ubi image, or just mnanual hacking?
<wpwrak> e.g., what if you paid jlime to make a set of mp3-free packages for you ?
<wpwrak> but in their spare time, they still maintain their "full" repository on their own machines
<juan64bits> the fs is the same of the nanonote, with manual hacking.
<wolfspraul> remove anything that infringes from collaborative forums, wikis, etc. either in advance, or if you like the thrill, after notification
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: also is tooo bored i cant to MSPS measures in SIE and so far i was not able to find a TI MSPS ADC chip compatible pin with to replace the current TLV1548
<juan64bits> also with ubi using the .tar.gz and adding the files compiled for SIE
<wolfspraul> juan64bits: what 'problem in the board' do you mean?
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: the _only_ thing i need from SIE now was and scope, but seems i'll end adding it with and external board, but i guess SIE was not planed to measure Mhz data out of the box ;) so np
<juan64bits> sometimes i have to touch the jtag resistors
<kristianpaul> hmm why?
<wolfspraul> kristianpaul: Adam ran all tests on all boards, so it should work, at least to the degree as provided by the tests we ran.
<kristianpaul> wolfspraul: yes it works, waht i pointed seems more a sofware issue, so dont worry :)
<juan64bits> yeah, Mhz wasn't planed
<kristianpaul> :'(
<wolfspraul> ok, good
<kristianpaul> juan64bits: right now i got  a TLV1562 i hope do the job :=
<kristianpaul> :)
<wolfspraul> (that it's probably a sw issue...)
<wolfspraul> juan64bits: we need someone to push those 'manual changes' into a clean OpenWrt target
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: you wouldn't want them to be able to proove that you are helping someone to infringe
<wolfspraul> helping someone to commit a crime is better than committing the crime yourself, but it will still get you into trouble
<wolfspraul> especially if you have profit motives behind it etc.
<wolfspraul> but I think even in the context of sisvel this kind of case would never be brought forward
<wolfspraul> I want to stay real, not all just in theory.
<wolfspraul> the most aggressive enforcer I know is sisvel (mp3)
<juan64bits> ok, but those "manual changes" maybe just creating new feeds for openwrt
<wolfspraul> juan64bits: we need a clean target
<wolfspraul> even if it's just a 'few' simple steps
<kristianpaul> or documentation in the wiki
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: after that, mpeg la (mpeg4/h.264)
<kristianpaul> (i think)
<wpwrak> alright, so you're saying that you think it would be safe, to, day pay jlime for maintaining the "good" packages and providing them on a qi-hw server
<wolfspraul> after that, I don't even know already. I think the rest are all people going after big money, and then it's all fair game anyway.
<wpwrak> including making sure the package installer doens't by default stray elsewhere
<wpwrak> (big money) yeah, like RIM
<wolfspraul> yes sure that's what we do with OpenWrt
<wolfspraul> I'm pretty sure David/Tuxbrain would accept this.
<juan64bits> i think in the "feeds" beacuse we are using the minimal configuration of NN for get our fs, and then the applications for SIE are added
<wpwrak> alright. even if jlime/openwrt have their own "bad" repository, that then shouldn't be high-risk
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: that's what I would think, yes
<wpwrak> just like you'll probably not get charged for helping a murder if your baker buys a gun with your money and shoots his wife. probably not even if he's been talking about wanting to kill her.
<wpwrak> okay, good
<wolfspraul> although I would remove links there (<a href> links)
<wolfspraul> I cannot imagine that sisvel would bring forward a complicate case that involves the inner operations of big free software projects like OpenWrt or Jlime/OE
<wpwrak> links to openwrt/jlime-the-project, not only links to offending packages/instructions
<wolfspraul> yes all <a href> links
<wolfspraul> if you operate in this way, I think it will be very hard for them to show that you are the infringer
<wolfspraul> at least that's a good 'base' to operate from
<wpwrak> overly constructed cases can also work against the attacker. not only may they lose (which they probably don't care about), but they'll also look weak in public
<wolfspraul> you can never rule out that they come after you anyway, but with my experience I would feel safe in this way, yes
<wpwrak> perfect
<wolfspraul> yes correct
<wolfspraul> no they know that
<wolfspraul> they don't want to stir up a lot of dust
<wpwrak> rafa: did you read all this ? :-)
<wolfspraul> they want to make money
<wolfspraul> and - by the way
<wolfspraul> it's easy to point at the bad sisvel guys
<wolfspraul> afaik it's actually Phillips
<wolfspraul> they just created this no-name outfit so that the bad reputation won't fall on their 'good' brand
<wpwrak> Philips ? the dutch company ?
<wolfspraul> the way it works is that you create a no-name company, Sisvel here
<wolfspraul> then you 'sell' the MP3 rights to that company
<wpwrak> oh, lovely
<wolfspraul> in this case I think for 200-400 million USD
<wpwrak> so no nxp parts :)
<wolfspraul> so Sisvel starts with a huge amount of debt, in their books
<wolfspraul> of course they get a credit line because they are backed by Phillips
<wolfspraul> but legally it's now a separate company, with lots of debt
<wolfspraul> and the poor lawyers have to work down the debt mountain
<wolfspraul> and take the blame :-)
<wolfspraul> meanwhile on Phillips side all is bright & sunny
<wpwrak> something useful to mention in press releases when that sort of lawsuit hits you
<wpwrak> philips are indeed concerned about such things
<wpwrak> (one L, if we're talking about the dutch guys)
<wolfspraul> sure but they would never talk about it
<wolfspraul> and those 'links' (he he) would be very hard to demonstrate
<wolfspraul> you would need to be able to get copies of the sisvel shareholder/founding documents
<wolfspraul> their coporate charter etc.
<wpwrak> it should be easy to prove the origin of the IP
<wpwrak> i mean, that's the first thing you'd challenge
<wolfspraul> I'm not saying the lawyers are all great, but well if a poor little lawyer is employed there and presented with this mountain of debt, what shall he do :-)
<wolfspraul> ah
<wolfspraul> try to even tell them which patents they enforce...
<wolfspraul> sorry typo "try to even get them to tell you..."
<wpwrak> no, i mean when they hit you with a lawsuit. the they can't hide these things anymore
<wolfspraul> and then, whoever filed the patent, what does that proove? the rights could have been sold or licensed many times
<wolfspraul> all those agreements are private
<wolfspraul> true
<wpwrak> so after the pulster incident, you should have all the information
<wolfspraul> but they may slap confidentiality agreements all over you anyway
<wolfspraul> ask Pulster
<wolfspraul> I have seen some small parts.
<wpwrak> hmm, i doubt they could require this if the thing makes it to court
<wpwrak> claiming they don't have the rights to sue you it pretty much standard practice. then they have to put something on the table.
<wolfspraul> maybe Pulster knows more, I don't
<wpwrak> did pulster go to court ? or was it just preliminary injunction and then settled out of court ?
<wolfspraul> I'm just describing what I believe is a safe strategy to avoid patent infringement, in the cases like mp3/mpeg4 etc. where we are at least dealing with someone reasonable/predictable patent holders
<wolfspraul> oh no
<wolfspraul> big big case
<wolfspraul> tens of thousands of EUR cost
<wolfspraul> and so on
<wpwrak> so it did go to court ?
<wolfspraul> yes I think it did
<wpwrak> with a verdict ?
<wolfspraul> forgot
<wolfspraul> Pulster doesn't talk about it much, maybe Harald knows more.
<wolfspraul> he is selling NanoNotes though :-)
<wpwrak> ah, good :)
<wolfspraul> from all I know, the patent problem right now really comes down to sisvel and mpeg la
<wolfspraul> after that there are endless trivial patents, but I think they are enforced not very systematically
<wolfspraul> maybe if you are in a very specialized field
<wolfspraul> like Elphel is very very concerned about bundling stitching software with their panoramic cameras
<wpwrak> seems that rafa isn't around at the moment. well, i think we have a proper delineation between dos and dont's now.
<wolfspraul> there seem to be some specialized 'stitching software' enforcers
<wolfspraul> so Elphel will only sell cameras (even panoramic ones) that 'cannot' do stitching
<wpwrak> luckily most of the trolls only seem to smell blood if you're making millions
<wolfspraul> same kind of chinese wall as I described earlier
<wolfspraul> yes correct
<wolfspraul> the more money you make the bigger the patent problems becomes
<wpwrak> apropos chinese, do you know why the MIPS patent expiration didn't work ?
<wolfspraul> that's why I say to my knowledge only sisvel and mpeg la are systematically enforcing
<wolfspraul> I don't know
<wolfspraul> they must have made a proposal that the other side couldn't refuse
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> if we are lucky, sisvel is history in a few years
<wolfspraul> that would be great
<wpwrak> indeed
<wolfspraul> my feeling is it's a one-time shop setup to milk the mp3 patents to death, work down the debt mountain they were started with etc.
<wolfspraul> but then, you have a functioning organization
<wolfspraul> you could fill new IP into this pot :-)
<wpwrak> go to sisvel.com, click on contacts "SISVEL: AN IDEAL IP PARTNER FOR YOUR ORGANIZATION. CONTACT US TODAY."
<wpwrak> seems that they're already looking for material :)
<wolfspraul> you do find the cruel stuff, don't you?
<kristianpaul> gn8
<wpwrak> "news & events", DVB-T2, UHF RFID, Stereoscopic 3D, LTE, ...
<wolfspraul> in their History they say they got the MP3 patents from Philipps
<wpwrak> yeah, that's all they write about besides autio MPEG. nothing to worry about for now.
<wolfspraul> so who is the bad guy now?
<wolfspraul> what does Philipps think someone else will do after they sell the IP for xxx million USD? :-)
<wolfspraul> but well that's how it works... so Philipps can continue talking about being the 'good guys'
<wolfspraul> maybe sponsor a free software conference?
<wolfspraul> at least they have enough money for free drinks and stuff
<wpwrak> if the philips (one L, one P at a time) patent is used, one could perhaps innocently mention that in press releases :)
<wpwrak> s/the/a/
<wolfspraul> "The company was so successful in managing the Indesit patents that major international players in the consumer electronics industry, such as Philips, France Télécom, TDF, and IRT, turned to SISVEL to license some of their most valuable intellectual property, including their patents relating to the MPEG Audio standard (Layers 1, 2, and 3)."
<wpwrak> yup
<wolfspraul> I think Sisvel paid 200-400 mln USD
<wolfspraul> a lot of money
<wolfspraul> need to make that back first
<wolfspraul> that's their focus
<wolfspraul> they are very very focused from my experience with them
<wpwrak> what do you mean with "very focused' ?
<wolfspraul> money
<wolfspraul> focused on making money
<wolfspraul> of course they don't care how much damage they create on your side
<wolfspraul> they are focused on their money
<wpwrak> ah, that's a relatively popular obsession
<wpwrak> damage is an externality
<wolfspraul> that's why I dont' think they will go after cases that enter grey/questionable legal territory
<wolfspraul> they don't want to bind their resources on such nonsense
<wolfspraul> it's a simple machine, quite clean actually
<wpwrak> yeah, or weaken their attack on worthless targets
<wolfspraul> they show that you are infringing, they bring forward the case
<wolfspraul> of course they know how to use the law to the last little comma
<wolfspraul> which is open to you too, of course, only that you don't have a pool of 100+ full-time lawyers, with tons of prepared templates, prior cases, etc.
<wolfspraul> "SISVEL's management of the MPEG Audio licensing program is a prime example of its role in protecting intellectual property rights and highlights the companys transformation into a global player and leader in the licensing community."
<wolfspraul> ouch, painful
<wolfspraul> maybe we should point them away from our field somehow
<wolfspraul> maybe some patent portfolio in oil & gas exploration?
<wolfspraul> I hear that's a quite cash rich industry as well.
<wpwrak> in illustrative techniques for religious figures ? maybe then some fundamentalist will take care of them for us :)
<rafa> wpwrak: if I read? from where? :)
<wpwrak> rafa: welcome back ! :)
<wpwrak> rafa: i asked wolfgang about how jlime offending packages could be integrated better into qi-hw
<wpwrak> rafa: the bottom line is that the problem packages shouldn't be installed, easy to install, or that there should be instructions on qi-hw for installing them
<wpwrak> rafa: also, if jlime hosts a any of the problems above (package, instructions, etc.), then qi-hw shouldn't have a link to that material or to jlime.com
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: (not to discredit your great summary) I believe rafa already knows this.
<wolfspraul> at least I was under the assumption that he does
<wpwrak> rafa: so if jlime can make a package set and put it on some space at qi-hw, that would solve most of the issues
<wolfspraul> we can create a chinese wall separating infringing and non-infringing technology anywhere we like, it just has to be clear/clean enough
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: i'm not sure all the details are clear
<wolfspraul> the current proposal is to see tuxbrain.com/qi-hardware.com/sharism.cc as one system
<rafa> wpwrak: wolfspraul : yes, I was guessing that.. but deeper.. the jlime/debian image at qi-hw sites.. could those have links to repositories of packages or web sites?..
<wolfspraul> and to have no infringing stuff inside those walls
<rafa> (web sites= links to jlime.com which could have packages with offensive software)
<wpwrak> btw, how about links into jlime.com, to  material unrelated to the problem pakcages ? (e.g., other packages or maybe also instructions)
<wolfspraul> rafa: no, links are not good
<wolfspraul> I walked wpwrak through the entire legal logic before.
<wolfspraul> :-)
<rafa> wolfspraul: yes, I guessed that as well..
<wolfspraul> it starts with the infringer, and the other side trying to proove that it is in fact that person/company who is infringing, or helping someone else infringe.
<wolfspraul> if that person/company can make the point that it is 'not them', the other side has no case
<wolfspraul> so you need to start thinking from tuxbrain's side
<rafa> wolfspraul: so finally we can have something. I guessed this: an jlime image without offensive software, without links to sites explaining the bad things (bad things=for example, how to install mp3 software) and
<wolfspraul> how can tuxbrain claim that he is not infringing?
<wolfspraul> etc.
<rafa> without links to repositorirse packages with that kind of software
<wolfspraul> yes, then I believe Tuxbrain could import or sell such devices and be reasonably safe from an infringement claim from Sisvel
<wpwrak> yes, but there's a big gray zone. e.g., links to the other site. now, if someone has a problem with, say, vi, and there is an answer on the forum at jlime.com, would a link to that answer on qi-hw be okay, or would that still count as an posible infingement ?
<wolfspraul> the less links to sites that host infringing technology the better. but if the link is about a totally separate topic, I wouldn't know how they could use that link in a series of steps to proove infringement.
<wolfspraul> they are trying to proove an infringement of MP3 patents!
<wolfspraul> not come up with a random series of keypresses what will let you play MP3
<wpwrak> good. i would consider this too far-fetched as well. but then, of course, IANAL
<wolfspraul> Sisvel is relatively predictable
<wolfspraul> they just want to tax mp3, done
<wolfspraul> they have no educational mission, or any mission beyond making as much money from the mp3 patents as possible
<wpwrak> i guess it would depend a lot on whether someone somewhere manages to make such a connection stick. in that case, they may want to give it a try
<wolfspraul> I doubt that.
<wolfspraul> FreeRunner had mp3 in nand :-)
<wolfspraul> even with our cryptic installers we should be safe
<wolfspraul> but I wouldn't take that chance
<wpwrak> well, freerunner ran into problems :) qed
<wolfspraul> instructions in the wiki are a gray zone, the question is how many resources you have to devote on policing
<wolfspraul> but you definitely cannot just leave links or instructions there, especially if you know they are there
<wolfspraul> they do understand the concept of 'wiki'
<wpwrak> okay, so links to unrelated material are okay too. just not "top-level" of the offensive material
<wolfspraul> they are not rogue
<wolfspraul> they would not use one of their own people to insert infringing stuff into your wiki, then drag you out, etc.
<wpwrak> hah, who knows :)
<wolfspraul> if it's really unrelated, I wouldn't know how it could be part of proof of infringement, yes
<wolfspraul> no really
<wolfspraul> that's why I say let's stay real
<wolfspraul> Sisvel is real
<wolfspraul> they are aggressive
<wolfspraul> but also professional
<wolfspraul> they will not use dirty tricks
<wolfspraul> that's my judgment
<wpwrak> their whole business model is one big dirty trick
<wolfspraul> well OK, fine, but you understand my point
<wolfspraul> maybe some mafia lawyers will feed data they gather from evidence to the hitmen.
<wolfspraul> in my experience, Sisvel is by far not like that
<wolfspraul> they are using the legal system, which they did not create (although they spend a lot of resouces on lobbying to make sure it stays the way it is, and is modified in their advantage)
<wolfspraul> so back to reality
<wolfspraul> wiki/fora - no obvious infringements!
<wolfspraul> no instructions on how to make mp3 play
<wolfspraul> rafa: what wpwrak outlined above should work, imo
<wolfspraul> this is a decision to be made by tuxbrain anyway
<wolfspraul> if mp3 capability is in nand, that's the #1 way to get caught
<wolfspraul> we learnt that already
<wolfspraul> if it's installable - same, as long as they can proove that they stay within your system
<wolfspraul> if there are instructions on website you operate - same
<wolfspraul> that's enough
<rafa> wolfspraul: what exactly? ("what wpwrak outlined above").. sorry, I am reading the whole buffer because I just came :)
<wolfspraul> he
<rafa> so I was not following completely
<wpwrak> and the same for technical workarounds. and trying to beat them at legal workarounds meet them at their home turf, so not a good idea either
<wolfspraul> Werner is best at short summaries.
<wolfspraul> no no, let's not try that
<wolfspraul> that's a separate battle
<wpwrak> rafa: just the summary i posted after you came back
<rafa> wpwrak: ahh.. okey..
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: btw, my questions for specific technical details are to define clear guidelines that can be used without requiring people even less familiar with all this stuff to make judgement calls for what may be very common tasks
<wpwrak> rafa: lemme write this here :) the known danger areas are mp3, mpeg4, and h.264
<rafa> wolfspraul: yes, i know this.. but thanks a lot for discussing this. We have another good idea.. I think that it could be easy to have a twin image without links or software which can encode decode mp3/mp4
<rafa> wolfspraul: wpwrak : we have that idea (a twin image) because you suggested that :) and I think that I could work on that easily
<wpwrak> rafa: if patent issues pop up somewhere else, one would have to react to that. there's no way of telling. but then, sharism/tuxbrain/etc. wouldn't be a likely target for a new patent attack. they go after big companies.
<wpwrak> rafa: (twin image) perfect. also, please keep in mind that the list of packet repositories the installer uses must not contain the "full" repository you'll probably have at jlime.com
<wolfspraul> twin image?
<wolfspraul> sounds suspicious :-)
<rafa> wpwrak: well, maybe we can provide an image without links to repositories at all.. So that would be really easy to get. At least users could test it.
<rafa> wolfspraul: twin image: I mean,
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: the version to host at qi-hw :)
<rafa> wolfspraul: to provide a jlime image without links, without repositorires set, without software which can encode/decode mp3/mp4/patented codecs. This twin image would be useful to be hosted in other places with risk, like qi-hw servers ;)
<wpwrak> rafa: naw, i think the best would be to build all the packages, have alternative packages for things like the package containing the list of sources, the rootfs, and anything that may incorporate the codecs, and copy this to qihw
<wpwrak> rafa: if you really want to be pedantic, you could of course run two completely separate builds, even if you'd then also have a qi and a non-qi version of sed, vi, emacs, gcc, etc.
<wolfspraul> that's why openwrt introduced the PATENTED flag
<wolfspraul> it's hard to single out packages if they are all tied together with dependencies
<wpwrak> rafa: i think some of the key values of jlime is the large set of packages you can install, so they should be available on qi-hw too
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: your idea about spreading patent knowledge is nice, but hard to execute
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: that's an implementation detail :)
<wolfspraul> because there are so few hard rules in the patent mess
<wolfspraul> it depends on the enforcers
<wpwrak> yup, unfortunately
<wolfspraul> we just know sisvel & mpeg la relatively well
<wolfspraul> but I'm sure there are other sisvels, especially in smaller fields