adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.2 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<_obad_> morning
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<dmbaturin> Hi _obad_!
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<companion_cube> is there a warning for attributes that are left after ppx?
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<Drup> no
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<flux> is it just not done yet or is there some decision behind that?
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<whirm> If I want to cross-compile an eliom app, what's the way to go? I've googled for a while and haven't found anything. (I already have the crosscompiler)
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<nullcat> ocaml type system is like system f omega?
<ggole> I think only prenex polymorphism is supported.
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<octachron> Does polymorphic record ({ f: 'a. 'a -> 'a }) not go further than prenex polymorphism?
<Drup> whirm: cross compile ? to what ?
<whirm> Drup: linux-x86 to linux-arm (I've already have a working ocaml crosscompiler)
<Drup> do you have the dynlink working ?
<whirm> I've only tested a couple of simple programs without external libs. (ocaml newbie here)
<whirm> Drup: if you are interested: https://github.com/whirm/ocaml-arm
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<ggole> octachron: I don't think so
<Drup> whirm: I don't know anything about cross compilation, only about eliom :)
<ggole> It's a bit of a technicality in that you can use such records to do system-fy things
<Drup> but except the fact there are js_of_ocaml stuff, you shouldn't have issues, as long as it supports dynlink
<Drup> (you need camlp4, though)
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<whirm> Drup: I'll read about camlp4 then. I assume I'll have to modify the makefiles to tell eliomopt to use a different ocamlopt & co?
<whirm> hm, it seems like eliomopt compiles stuff by itself?
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<octachron> ggole: isn't "let map2 (o:<f:'a. 'a -> 'a>) (a,b) = o#f a, o#f b" rank 2-polymorph?
<ggole> Depends on whether you consider the type variable part of the type of map2 or not, I guess
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<Drup> whirm: yes
<whirm> Drup: so I'll have to build an eliom crosscompiler too?
<Drup> whirm: eliomopt is just a wrapper around the ocamlopt
<Drup> you should be able to tell it to use another ocamlopt
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<whirm> Drup: I couldn't see any option for that in eliomopt --help
<Drup> whirm: huum, you should take a look at the code, I don't remember how it's done
<whirm> Drup: ok, I'll have a look when I have some spare time. Thanks!
<def`> you can encode system f with what octachron said but not higher kinded types of system f omega
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<whirm> Drup: I see eliombuild does have options to set which compiler to use, do you know where to find documentation about how to use it?
<Drup> huum, not really :x
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<whirm> Drup: meh, not easy for newbies this whole thing :)
<Drup> You are not trying to do something easy
<whirm> Drup: I know, but I want to make sure everything I need works before developing anything serious with it.
<Drup> note that you don't really need a cross compiler anyway. You could compile everything on arm
<Drup> anyway, if you manage to have it running, it will be interesting to have :p
<whirm> Drup: yes, but that would make the whole development flow really slow (I don't have any powerful ARM board)
<Drup> I know
<whirm> Drup: it's a bit weird because there's no mention of this binary on the eliom website AFAICS and the generated Makefile doesn't use it either..
<Drup> which binnary ?
<Drup> eliomopt ?
<whirm> eliombuild
<Drup> ignore that
<whirm> the one that has -ocamlopt, -ocamlc, etc.
<Drup> it's a wrapper around ocamlbuild
<Drup> that's not going to help you
<whirm> ah :(
<whirm> Then I'll have to check the source of eliomopt
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<whirm> Drup: I guess I'll have to put the crosscompilers first on the PATH: https://github.com/ocsigen/eliom/blob/6d4b60346049c6bbdaf3e478ffaa70bccac1e88c/src/tools/eliomc.ml#L388
<Drup> I guess that would work
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<whirm> I'll try later and let you know
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<whirm> Drup: it still uses the normal compiler :(
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<whirm> let ocamlopt = Findlib.command `ocamlopt
<whirm> well, let's see what android-ocamlfind is doing
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<obadz> anyone knows what's the status on modular implicits & multicore? not much noise coming out of ocamllabs
<struktured> obadz: my guess is the latest 4.02.2 release has taken news precedence in the ocaml world lately
<struktured> anyone interested in a subverse at voat.co for ocaml? I am probably going to ween off of reddit
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<obadz> it's just that the timelines in http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/projects/ocamllabs/tasks/compiler.html seem to have expired so I'd be curious to know if the new timelines is 1 more month, 1 more year, or 10 more years..
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<struktured> obadz: hard to say, saw a talk on it by Leo White both about 2 months ago at an ocaml meetup, it seems like they are pretty far along development wise
<struktured> *on both multicore/implicits
<companion_cube> but they are not production ready
<companion_cube> and some people in Inria will ask for soundness proofs before they accept implicits
<struktured> companion_cube: yeah the latter might be the blocker
<obadz> struktured: which city was the meetup?
<struktured> obadz: NYC
<obadz> k
<obadz> Is ocaml still not forkable from inria?
<flux> how do you mean not forkable?
<companion_cube> the license is weird
<flux> iirc the license only tells that you must be able to separate the original from the patch
<flux> with git that can be achieved
<obadz> Yeah it was never clear to me either
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<obadz> What do you guys think of Rust?
<flux> it's interesting.
<companion_cube> +1
<ggole> Lifetimes are a pain
<obadz> Do you guys see some shortcomings in Rust?
<companion_cube> currently, too many things are unstable
<obadz> Unstable as in API changes or as in stuff crashes?
<Hannibal_Smith> obadz, if you don't need what Rust can offer to you (better performance, latency, easy to expose a C api to write libraries...) OCaml and in general languages with a GC are easier to use
<companion_cube> as in, a lot of useful things are flagged unstable
<companion_cube> I think rust and OCaml would combine nicely
<obadz> Hannibal_Smith: interesting.. have been trying to wrap my head around the lack of GC in Rust and its implications in everyday coding.
<Hannibal_Smith> I think obadz that this is the real tradeoff on using Rust
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<Hannibal_Smith> Stability of libraries, additional language features will come with the time
<Hannibal_Smith> But the language is what you see today
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<companion_cube> mostly, yes
<companion_cube> a lot of (small?) things are missing
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<obadz> it has traits :)
<companion_cube> placement new, custom allocators, higher-kinded traits, better inference
<companion_cube> yes, traits are a big thing :D
<obadz> what's placement new?
<companion_cube> allocation of a value at a place decided by the allocator
<companion_cube> for instance, in C++, there is make_shared(foo) (I think), which allocates a new RC pointer and puts foo in it immediately
<companion_cube> rust does it with its builtin Box, but maybe not with other pointers
<companion_cube> another thing that would be interesting to have, is an optional GC
<Hannibal_Smith> companion_cube, no make_shared is not really related to placement new
<companion_cube> isn't it?
<Hannibal_Smith> obadz, plamente new is used to let you to give a pointer to the constructor, instead of let the language acquire one itself
<Hannibal_Smith> companion_cube, a make_shared will use the normal new inside of it
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<Hannibal_Smith> companion_cube, seeing GCC source is uses internally http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/memory/shared_ptr/allocate_shared with the allocator deduced with http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/memory/allocator
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<Hannibal_Smith> So I think I was wrong as in the end, the allocator will make use of placement new
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<Hannibal_Smith> You can see here the use of placement new
<companion_cube> right
<companion_cube> this code is so ugly...
<companion_cube> all the __ everywhere...
<Hannibal_Smith> obadz, it will pass the pointer taken from the allocator, and the language will construtor the requested object with the passed arguments at that specific address
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<Hannibal_Smith> It's a pretty important feature at least for C++
<Hannibal_Smith> Rust have yet to settle how it will handle custom allocators
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<companion_cube> but it will still be an important feature :)
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<Hannibal_Smith> With the hope that it will be simpler to give and write a custom allocator respect to C++ :-P
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<companion_cube> rust has the potential to express many allocation pattenrs safely
<companion_cube> including scoped allocators!
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<_obad_> sorry to barge in. stupid question. I'm starting to convert some code to Bytes, just wondering if there is a syntax e.g. .[] for it. my guess is there is not.
<_obad_> manual is not clear.
<Hannibal_Smith> Regarding Rust and OCaml yesterday on Rust channle
<Hannibal_Smith> <steveklabnik>jane street is sponsoring RustCamp :)
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<companion_cube> _obad_: I don't think there is
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<octachron> _obad_: there is no explicit syntax in 4.02, there should some new syntactic support in 4.03
<obadz> name thief!
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<obadz> I'm the real obadz
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<companion_cube> yes, there will be overridable .{}
<octachron> (and also overridable .[] in fact)
<companion_cube> oh ?
<companion_cube> oh well.
<octachron> if you need/want the .[] syntax there is some (relatively) ugly workaround that works in previous version
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<_obad_> octachron: it's not a big deal, I'll just use .get/.set, but if there is already some established thing I would rather have used that
<_obad_> obadz: you're the real obadZ alright
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<_obad_> companion_cube: cool! bigarrays are the best thing since sliced bread
<companion_cube> well in this case, it's about everything but bigarrays :p
<_obad_> what do you mean? you said overridable .{}
<whirm> Ok, anybody wants to be the first tester of the arm crosscompiler opam repo? :D
<_obad_> oh I see. well you could make something generic that specializes to bigarrays if needed with the same syntax
<companion_cube> no, it's just that .{} becomes a regular operator
<companion_cube> so you can let ({}) f x = ...
<whirm> it's based on vouillon's android repo: https://github.com/whirm/opam-arm-repository
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<_obad_> companion_cube: which means that you can write a functor with a matrix algorithm and instantiate it on bigarrays or something else
<_obad_> with pleasant indexing syntax
<companion_cube> yes, it's about pleasant syntax
<companion_cube> or you can add .{} indexing to your favorite hashtable ;)
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<whirm> Drup: are you still around?
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<Drup> Hannibal_Smith: Rust's performances are not that good right now
<Drup> rust has predictability due to non GC, but performances ... not that fabulous
<Hannibal_Smith> Do you think is a problem of the langauges semantic, or simply because they have yet to provide a good compiler?
<Hannibal_Smith> *language
<Drup> the later
<Drup> (I also find their latest change about Drop very weird)
<Hannibal_Smith> I had some ICE writing some code
<Hannibal_Smith> But I accept that state of things, as it will change with (not so much IMHO) time
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<Hannibal_Smith> Personally I would be more nervous about some language semantic that will force the compiler to do something that maybe is not even possible
<Hannibal_Smith> But I don't know the language to say something about it
<Drup> well, they do have questionable semantic/typing choices
<Drup> (hello turing complete typeclasses)
<MercurialAlchemi> I think they spent a lot of time nailing the semantics down for 1.0
<MercurialAlchemi> not that much on performance
<Drup> I personally think they screw up the Drop semantic in a hurry because of the famous thread safety bug
<Hannibal_Smith> Uhm...when I think about Drop in Rust I think: you can't pattern matching types that implement it, and the language has to zero memory on drop (I can't remember why)
<Hannibal_Smith> Both are really unfortunate things
<Hannibal_Smith> The later I think will be fixed
<Hannibal_Smith> Uhm...maybe I'm making a mistrake about the first
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<tokenrove> one of the good things about rust (and ocaml, for that matter) is that there's a serious community around it, which is something that really hurts a language like ats.
<rgrinberg> tokenrove: and things like cargo end up saving the rust community insane amounts of time
<tokenrove> yeah, and hopefully getting the standard library right the first time ;-)
<companion_cube> so much yes
<companion_cube> since they have had cargo from the start, the stdlib doesn't do that much, but does it well
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<toolslive> is 4.02.2 supposed to be syntactically backward compatible to 4.02.1 ? (I just encountered a glitch)
<companion_cube> it breaks ppx stuff
<toolslive> | Explicit [@name "explicit"] of int32 list
<companion_cube> yes, exactly
<companion_cube> it becomes | Explicit of int32 list [@name "explicit"]
<toolslive> works in 4.02.1 but I need to move the [@ .....] stuff to the end
<toolslive> yes
<companion_cube> (yes, this change is undocumented)
<companion_cube> (pretty annoying)
<toolslive> yes, I first looked at the changes but couldn't find anything
<toolslive> should it be reported as a bug (and ifso, where?)
<companion_cube> I opened one
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<toolslive> great.
<companion_cube> http://caml.inria.fr/mantis/view.php?id=6912 oh wait, I didn't open a full issue, it's just a comment
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<Algebr> I'm passing ocamlopt a .o of compiled c code, I also want to pass special linking arguments via clang, how can I do this? I tried -ccopt but this isn't recognized, it gives me the help prompt
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<Algebr> ah, needed another -ccopt, didn't realize it was needed for each term
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