adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.2 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<Algebr`> How do I add files for an executable in _oasis without necessarily creating a library?
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<Algebr`> Oh nvm, I can get my goal by just doing install:false for a library
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<nullcat> getting confused with https://github.com/samoht and https://github.com/smondet everytime
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<adrien_znc> samoth -> thomas reversed, if that helps
<rks`> close
<nullcat> you win
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<hcarty> Is there an Lwt-friendly way to check if a file exists?
<hcarty> Something that comes out of the box with Lwt that is. I don't see anything that seems to map to Sys.file_exists in Lwt_io, Lwt_sys or Lwt_unix.
<Drup> would it block ?
<flux> it can block
<flux> but I doubt lwt can select for that..
<flux> so to do that you need to use a native thread?
<Drup> it seems a bit heavy
<flux> example of it blocking: a disk needs to be spinned up
<Drup> worse case, just add it to lwt :p
<flux> and all other cases, there's always some random access involved unless it's in the ram (or in SSD and then it doesn't matteR)
<hcarty> Drup: If I come up with something useful I'll submit a patch :-)
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<flux> so have there been plans/work to make Lwt work nicely with ocaml-multicore!
<hcarty> flux: Yes, it looks like Lwt_preemptive.detach (Sys.file_exists path) would work. Heavy as Drup said, but it would work.
<Drup> flux: not until multicore is actually there
<flux> hcarty, do you have a use case that involves doing that a lot/for slow file systems?
<flux> drup, what? I expect to git switch on the d-day and then suddenly everything is faster ;-)
<Drup> I mean, it's not even on alpha right now :D
<hcarty> flux: Probably not enough for preemptive threads to be an issue. It's NFS, so there's definitely chances for slowness.
<hcarty> I recently learned that rename can fail on NFS even if the operation was a success. So I need to work around that.
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<reynir> Interesting. I upgraded from opam 1.2.0 to latest and now I don't need to remove ~all packages to upgrade
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<flux> drup, isn't that a good place to try real-world-apps and maybe affect the future interface it will have ;-)
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<whirm> adrien: are you there?
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<whirm> In case anyone is interested: I adapted ocaml-android recipe to build an x86 to linux-armhf crosscompiler https://github.com/whirm/ocaml-arm
<whirm> I've only tried if to compile a few simple programs, but it seems to work fine.
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<adrien_znc> oh, that's nice :)
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<whirm> I have an opam repo on my TODO list too
<whirm> adrien_znc: thanks for the help :)
<adrien_znc> np :)
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<whirm> any recomendations other than what's in https://opam.ocaml.org/blog/turn-your-editor-into-an-ocaml-ide/ for ocaml devel in emacs?
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<xtrntr1> hi, what makes a language "fast"?
<xtrntr1> my work project will involve a GUI for a high speed industrial robot
<xtrntr1> afaik, the biggest performance bottleneck will be the image processing speed, which would be dependent on the library
<xtrntr1> which will likely be a commercial library written in c anyway
<xtrntr1> so the high level programming language to design the interface, log data, etc
<xtrntr1> wouldn't need to be "fast" per se
<xtrntr1> am i wrong in this aspect?
<xtrntr1> i am desperately looking for a reason not to use .NET in this project
<Drup> not really, no
<Drup> (you are not wrong)
<Drup> (and any .NET framework is not really faster than OCaml anyway)
<xtrntr1> so when i see people talk about language speed, i am a little confused
<destrius_> yeah if you're going to be using .NET, that's not really "fast"
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<xtrntr1> what applications of programming would require fast processing speed other than handling heavy server loads and game programming?
<Drup> xtrntr1: don't worry, almost everyone is confused :D
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<xtrntr1> why do you guys use ocaml? i've heard ocaml touted as being fast. are there other appealing factors?
<xtrntr1> :)
<ggole> Code tends to work when you use the language a certain way
<xtrntr1> oh and i mentioned .NET, because that's what our legacy codebase is in
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<destrius_> very often, how fast your program runs is more of a function of how efficiently it is written, as opposed to what it was written in
<xtrntr1> in that case, why ocaml? why not use java or .NET or c++
<destrius_> in my case, there are features that ocaml has that i find more suitable for the kind of programs i need to write
<xtrntr1> if speed is mostly independent of language choice, then what are the main factors for a language agnostic developer?
<destrius_> it's also a personal preference
<destrius_> it just feels nicer to write in for me
<xtrntr1> might i ask what are these features?
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<destrius_> it's designed for manipulating languages, and i'm writing stuff that analyses programs
<fds> xtrntr1: You might like to read this: https://realworldocaml.org/v1/en/html/prologue.html#why-ocaml
<xtrntr1> fbinfer?
<destrius_> then there's all the usual functional features that are nice
<destrius_> yeah that would be a good thing to read
<fds> The short answer is `the type system'.
<destrius_> of course, that also happens to be the answer to everything ;)
<xtrntr1> i can understand "reduces the runtime errors"
<xtrntr1> but what does this mean?
<xtrntr1> "Static type-checking to increase performance"
<xtrntr1> how does it do that?
<destrius_> by being a well designed language so certain things can be determined at compile time
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<xtrntr1> does it mean compiling speed, or run time speed?
<xtrntr1> these questions sound deliberately obtuse to me, and i can assure you they are not :( im just new
<destrius_> some languages (e.g. python) do runtime type checks. these can make things slow.
<fds> It means extra work is done at compile time to improve run-time speed.
<destrius_> in ML, you do it at compile time, so you don't need to check at run-time, thus making run-time faster
<fds> But yeah, to say something like that scientifically, you have to say what you're comparing to.
<fds> Obviously, the 'fastest' option would be to do no checks at all.
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<fds> But, the point they're trying to make is that OCaml has chosen the route which least affects run-time performance.
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<destrius_> anyway, if you're trying to decide what language to use, i would suggest to use the one you are most comfortable and familiar with, at least to start
<destrius_> assuming that it's feasible
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<destrius_> fast is useless if its wrong, get it right first then worry about speed
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<destrius_> and it's harder to get it right in a language you don't know
<xtrntr1> gotcha :)
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<destrius_> also, full disclosure, when people refer to ocaml as being fast, they generally mean compared to other similar languages which people tend to stereotype as being slow
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<_obad_> what's the easiest solution for a simple web server to display dynamic content (let's say the last few lines from a log file)? lwt preferred. can be behind lighttpd via scgi for example.
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<_obad_> eliom? just ocsigenserver? owebl? wdialog? I just want the thing to be up and running as easily as possible.
<dsheets> _obad_, just cohttp using the example FS-based servers in the repo to crib?
<Drup> what dsheets said
<Drup> ocsigenserver alone is rather pointless, cohttp is nicer. Don't use owebl.
<Drup> (eliom is not "easy")
<Drup> (except if you know it already)
<_obad_> dsheets: that would be cool, I use cohttp as a client already, didn't know it had a server too
<_obad_> thanks
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<Drup> you can use opium too, it's easier
<adrien> well
<adrien> usually people don't say that about opium :)
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<Algebr`> Can I use the type system to enforce the restriction of a type? example type prob = float (* Want to enforce 0.0 <= prob <= 1.0 *)
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<Drup> not like that, no
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<Algebr`> how can I do it then, I don't want to raise exceptions
<Drup> and this kind of conditions are going to be quite hard to enforce by the type system
<Anarchos> Algebr` use the "when " conditions when pattern-matching
<Algebr`> that won't track all cases
<dsheets> Algebr`, make it abstract and only use it with functions in the module of the abstract type
<dsheets> then, write those functions to maintain the invariant
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<dsheets> it's almost like... algebr...
<flux> algebr`, the way to do it: type prob = float private
<flux> algebr`, then your module provides a function float -> prob: let make x = assert (x >= 0 && x <= 1.0); x
<Algebr`> assert is compile time right
<flux> bonus points: provide module Ops = struct let (+) x y = make (x +. y) .. etc
<flux> yes
<flux> how else would it work? you need Coq to do that.
<dmbaturin> Algebr`: The only ways to enforce something like that is formal verification tools or languages like coq (which are, in a sense, formal verification tools for themselves :)
<flux> well, there is Ats
<flux> which is of course a formal verification tool
<flux> but perhaps more approachable than Coq. maybe.
<flux> not sure if it can do that, though
<flux> floats can be tricky afaik :)
<dmbaturin> Ada allows you to define range types, but best it can do on its own (without verification tools) is to raise a ConstraintError if its violated.
<flux> well, there is something more it can do
<flux> it can make this a compile time error: let a : prob = 2.0
<flux> so a bit nicer syntax
<flux> for hiding asserts.. ;-)
<flux> but the moment it gets into evaluating stuff, well, it's not going to do it
<flux> or will it?
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<flux> it is unable to do it for the generic case, and it might be difficult to predict what change in code makes it go from "verified ok" to "needs runtime asserts"
<flux> and that's not a great feature in my book :-o
<flux> difficult to predict for the developer of course
<dsheets> if you use abstract type or private and only provide closed functions and constructors of optional values, you won't have proof but you will have a likely correct module
<flux> oh and one other thing Ada might do: elide redundant asserts
<flux> though technically an optimizing compiler would do that as well
<flux> but they might have more effort in doing that :)
<dmbaturin> Hhm, I wasn't even aware of the "type foo = private something" syntax.
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<flux> irc and learn :)
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* ygrek walks around with "release lwt" placard
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<_obad_> I updated to 4.02.2 and I lost the \i binding in vim for reindenting the whole program... halp!
<_obad_> == works though
<yomimono> gg=G
<_obad_> good start but i lose my position
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<yomimono> out of ideas then :/
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<Drup> ygrek: wip
<_obad_> gg=G<Ctrl-O><Ctrl-O> works but now I can't get it to map to \i
<dmbaturin> ygrek: These days the default thing to do is to create an internet petition.
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<ygrek> Drup, thanks!
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<ygrek> dmbaturin, harassing the maintainers proves to be more effective :)
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<_obad_> is there a bracket syntax for bytes?
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<yomimono> I have a format string that I want to (1) pass to sprintf so I can pass the interpreted string to another library and (2) pass to another library which will eventually call printf on it.
<yomimono> The typechecker disallows me from doing this in the obvious way.
<yomimono> Is there a non-obvious (or obvious to others) way to deal with this?
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<lyxia> Are you looking for format_of_string?
<yomimono> lyxia: sadly no, I still get an error stating that (bytes, out_channel, unit, unit, unit, unit) format6 and (bytes, unit, bytes, bytes, bytes, bytes) format6 can't be unified
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<lyxia> Uhm, can you paste some of your code?
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<yomimono> let me see if I can get a coherent pastebin together; it's deeply embedded in other stuff
<yomimono> basically I want to intercept something on its way to Dolog and pass it to something else that wants bytes
<yomimono> lyxia: actually I think I'll just change this design a bit, thanks for your help
<lyxia> Ok. You're welcome, even though I didn't do much :)
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