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<wpwrak>
ceene: do you know if it's possible to export a layout from altium such that it can be explored in eagle ? i.e., that one can follow traces across the layers and such ?
<amatus>
eagle free can only do 2 layers
<amatus>
it would probably be better to try to import it into kicad
<wpwrak>
joerg seems to like eagle :) but yes, if there's a path to kicad, i'd be more than happy with that
<DocScrutinizer05>
amatus: we have eagle PRO
<DocScrutinizer05>
always did
<DocScrutinizer05>
the project is based on that
<wpwrak>
ceene: and lemme check: you can use eagle-provided schematics to do the layout in altium ? or would the process be to first redraw the schematics in altium, and then do the layout ?
* DocScrutinizer05
afk for finally getting a HDD that doesn't tick
<wpwrak>
hdparm --no-time-bomb :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
ceene: maybe let's start with "would you actually want to get contracted to do proto_v2 layout in a reasonable timespan?"
<amatus>
oh, i thought you were trying to get it in a more open format because this is supposed to be open source hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
no it isn't
<amatus>
wat?
<DocScrutinizer05>
let's start with there's no clear definition of open source hardware at all
<amatus>
agreed
<DocScrutinizer05>
when this project (resp the predecessors it's based on) started, there was only eagle that was faintly up to the task and even allowed a free version to view even 8-layer designs
<DocScrutinizer05>
we're focused on getting a product out, not to do an exercise in open source hardware
<DocScrutinizer05>
we try to be as open as reasonably possible
<DocScrutinizer05>
this doesn't include spending manmonths for porting the project to kicad just to check if it would actually work or if we wasted our time
<DocScrutinizer05>
if anybody else wnat's to tackle this, we're more than happy and will support them any way we can
<DocScrutinizer05>
we will even evaluate the kicad result and check if we can actually use it
<DocScrutinizer05>
but for now our budget doesn't faciliate doing such port ourselves
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<DocScrutinizer05>
teh choice of eagle been done by Nikolaus, before the project even started. And since he is/was our HW house, we need to use the toolchain the HW house says is needed
<amatus>
what software is the schematic in now?
<DocScrutinizer05>
eagel
<DocScrutinizer05>
the whole project is Eagle
<DocScrutinizer05>
plus some proprietary layouter Nikolaus wrote
<DocScrutinizer05>
which we don't have access to and don't know how to operate it even if we had
<DocScrutinizer05>
BBL for good now
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<ceene>
isn't Nikolaus around anymore?
<ceene>
the one who would route, if were that to happen, is ahycka
<ceene>
and yes, it seems that altium is able to import schematics
<ceene>
ahycka has done that
<ceene>
and it seems she would be able to route it
<ahycka>
i could import whole neo900 project in altium: with all nets and library. The problem is that there isn't any software that can import altium xD
<ahycka>
and Altium doesnt export to any free software
<ahycka>
i only try with eagle
<ahycka>
if you gice me a list of free software i can try 1 by 1
<ahycka>
*give
<ceene>
there's kicad, which I think is the most advanced right now
<ceene>
but i don't know if it's even worth trying
<ceene>
fastest way would be without a doubt for ahycka to route it using altium
<ahycka>
At least there is kicad for windows
<ahycka>
no no, the idea it's route in altium and try kicad to import it
<DocScrutinizer05>
ahycka: yes, please check what a routing/layout based on Eagle schematics and existing libraries and layout would take. We need to distribute some components between UPPER and LOWER board, and for now the UPPER board may be A4 (literally) size to simplify routing, after all this is a protoboard
<DocScrutinizer05>
we'll see what we can do regarding export to whatever format Eagle or kicad or any other, but that's not a primary goal right now. Just a nice-to-have, particularly when we could import into eagle to view the layout
<DocScrutinizer05>
checking layout on overhead projector foils is a nightmare ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
if we canmigrate to kicad, all the better
<ceene>
i'm trying to export it to kicad using that tool
<DocScrutinizer05>
if kicad is actually up to the task of doing all the DRC and ERC adn schematics and finally 8 layer layout with in pad vias and decent router and all
* DocScrutinizer05
idly wonders if eagle could inport Gerber or whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
obviously gerber missing all components, right?
<ceene>
not only that, but also isn't very useful...
<ceene>
it's not much more than a photograph of the litography
<ahycka>
yep
<ceene>
you lose all the information about which trace goes where and why
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<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly why, yes
<ceene>
lots of Unhandled Record type within: 29 using altium2kicad
<ceene>
and This is a rounded rectangle. Special support is needed
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<wpwrak>
ahycka: (import) sounds great ! that would be a big pain off the list :)
<ceene>
wpwrak: import to altium has already been done :)
<ceene>
exporting from altium to anything else seems quite hard
<ceene>
we're trying with altium2kicad
<ceene>
but doesn't look promising
<wpwrak>
ceene: i would have expected imports to be tricky, because you tend to use information, or not have information at the source that's needed at the destination. but if it works, i won't complain :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly, worst case we can hire 12 bonobos to copy the altium layout in eagle, manually ;-)
<ceene>
well, i guess it's imperative to compare both schematics to verify that nothing has been lost
<ceene>
yes, that's time consuming but not a difficult job
<DocScrutinizer05>
(compare) use netlists
<DocScrutinizer05>
and diff
<DocScrutinizer05>
also note the schematics are not rwady for primetime yet, need a few tiny fixes
<DocScrutinizer05>
ready*
<wpwrak>
(bonobos) trying to beat IS in terms of cruel and unusual tortures ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, prolly forbidden in the EU
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<DocScrutinizer05>
heck, I even might consider getting an altium license
<wpwrak>
ceene: you're trying to convert a layout to kicad ? or schematics ?
<ceene>
both
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: prolly cheaper than all the bananas for the bonobos
<wpwrak>
and the smell ...
<ceene>
i think altium was around 6.000 euros?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, bananas are cheap
<ceene>
plus 2.000 annually if you want to
<DocScrutinizer05>
1750 annually
<DocScrutinizer05>
iirc
<ceene>
yeah, something like that
<wpwrak>
"pay to play, pay more to win" nice :)
<ahycka>
from altium 2 kicad looks nice
<ceene>
being the kind of software it is, it's quite cheap
<ahycka>
ill try with 1 finish pcb (4 layers), and ill see what happend
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: the annual fees are for SLA
<DocScrutinizer05>
incl all upgrades
<DocScrutinizer05>
first year is free
<wpwrak>
(altium2kicad) description looks nice indeed. this limitation puzzles me, though: "A GND symbol with multiple horizontal lines arranged as a triangle"
<DocScrutinizer05>
how's that sentence a linmitation?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: yes, that's part of the puzzlement ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
"sentence" even
<wpwrak>
it is listed under "Currently known Limitations of KiCad". in kicad, the standard ground symbol is a down-pointing triangle. but you can of course make your own symbols.
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds like part of an enum
<wpwrak>
maybe they mean separate ground types or such.
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe they mean they can't cobvert that into kicad
<wpwrak>
but even that shouldn't be a problem. well, whatever :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually that symbol is PE or generically "Earth" and rarely used in schematics anyway
<ceene>
we've exported one of our company's PCB from altium to kicad
<DocScrutinizer05>
most frequently seen as Protective Earth and on antenna output posts for shortwave antennas
<ceene>
well...
<ceene>
it's lookable at
<ceene>
but it can't be used
<ceene>
there are missing traces
<ceene>
and probably more things that we don't know about
<ceene>
it's not that bad
<ceene>
it seems some polygons haven't been exported
<DocScrutinizer05>
a DRC in kicad *should* reveal those glitches
<ceene>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
DRC/ERC
<ceene>
it's not quite bad, in fact
<DocScrutinizer05>
alas the Eagle schematics are ERC infested to the brim
<DocScrutinizer05>
ERC-errors*
<DocScrutinizer05>
component lib defs are usually missing proper ERC defs
<ceene>
we think that for this particular board we've exported there's only two missing polygons
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I'm not experienced in how to fix this stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
I tried (and 80% managed) to fix ERC stuff for modem by redefining several pin types. But I'd need new classes of pins aiui which I dunno how to define in Eagle
<ceene>
kicad seems a lot more friendly than eagle
<ceene>
this really looks like a routing tool :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g. there are power consumers and power sources, and both also need a "optional" tag
<DocScrutinizer05>
I miss power sources and the optional bit
<ceene>
kicad looks good
<ceene>
ahycka would prefer using altium, as it is what she's used to
<ceene>
export is reasonably good
<ceene>
who's the one that designed the schematics?
<ceene>
she'd need to talk to him/her :)
<ceene>
she's seriously considering it
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, for all that matters this person is me now
<ceene>
cool
<wpwrak>
ceene: i'm a bit appalled by how unwieldy eagle is (coming from kicad)
<ceene>
yes... and ugly too
<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed
<ceene>
ahycka tried to route a single trace and it wasn't even making 45 degrees turns, only 90
<ceene>
so... even if it's configurable looks like a pain in the ass
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, you need to err rightclick? ctrl-click? whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
the main PITA is the extremely unintuitive interface
<wpwrak>
ahycka: are you comparing with kicad's manual routing or the push-router ? :)
<ceene>
ahycka never autoroutes
<wpwrak>
ceene: i wouldn't either. and it's not an autorouter ;-)
<ceene>
she tries once a year, just to look at what happens
<ceene>
ah, what's the push router then?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: toldya ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
toldme what?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: that autorouters suck
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure they do
<ceene>
wpwrak: where're you from?
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least compared to *good* semi-manual routers
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, a funny question
<DocScrutinizer05>
with at least 5 answers
<wpwrak>
ceene: fire up a recent kicad (pcbnew), View > Switch canvas to OpenGL, then doodle a few traces
<DocScrutinizer05>
~wiki werner almesberger
<infobot>
At https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werner_Almesberger (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{Infobox person |name=Werner Almesberger |birth_date={{birth date and age|1967|8|13}} |birth_place = Zurich, Switzerland |occupation=Programmer |known_for=Linux Kernel, GCC |residence = Argentina |nationality = Austria |other_names=wpwrak }} 'Werner Almesberger' (born 13 August 1967) is an Austrian free software computer programmer and an open-source hardware ...
<ceene>
you must be a cool guy
<ceene>
i don't have a wikipage :)
<ceene>
you speak spanish then?
<wpwrak>
(cool) if my wikipedia page says so ;-) (spanish) passably
<ceene>
hola :) nosotros somos españoles
<wpwrak>
hola ! :)
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<ceene>
you're the lilo guy!
<wpwrak>
puede ser util si no queremos que DocScrutinizer05 nos entiende (-:C
<wpwrak>
yup, sins of the youth :)
<ceene>
:D
<ceene>
you're a cool guy in fact!
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you think so ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
ablo on poco
<ceene>
you're missing an H :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
compredo mas
<ceene>
i'm sure you know how to order beer
<MonkeyofDoom>
gimme an N!
<MonkeyofDoom>
:P
<DocScrutinizer05>
even more than one ;-)
<ceene>
great
<ceene>
next neo900con can be in Spain then
<DocScrutinizer05>
Andalucia por favor, sota de la luz
<DocScrutinizer05>
costa*
<ceene>
we live in Madrid, not as beautiful and it lacks beaches
<DocScrutinizer05>
indeed
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess you drive to Los Canos one a year at least, like all Madrilerrr
<DocScrutinizer05>
madrid people
<wpwrak>
better flight connections :)
<ceene>
madrileños
<DocScrutinizer05>
gracias
<ahycka>
to go to Andalucia It's better the train :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh, Jerez
<ceene>
then you can go on motorbike
<DocScrutinizer05>
noce little airport
<DocScrutinizer05>
nice*
<DocScrutinizer05>
or worst case Sevilla
<ahycka>
yeap, but the train its cheaper :P
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod: but I did that once, never again
<ceene>
there's now high speed train
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh
<ceene>
it's still around 3-4 hours
<ahycka>
from Madrid to Cadiz 4:30
<ceene>
uhmm
<ceene>
if we leave NOW we could have dinner at Cádiz
<ahycka>
We need to win lotery first xD
<DocScrutinizer05>
I won't get a flight that fast
<ceene>
i can pay for a train ticket
<ceene>
i can't pay for being fired due to not coming to work this wee, though :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
heck, the L keycap came off again