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<DocScrutinizer05> hellekin: dos1: >>The WiFi chipset (WL1273L) will require a binary-only firmware file to be loaded. An open-source driver (WL12xx) is part of the Linux mainline kernel.<< http://neo900.org/faq#peripherals has references to obsolete wl12xx
<DocScrutinizer05> please fix that
<DocScrutinizer05> the statement stays valid for wl18xx though
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<hellekin> DocScrutinizer05: fix what? replace wl12xx with wl18xx?
<DocScrutinizer05> basically yes :-) it's alink though, please check if we can get an apropriate updated link
<DocScrutinizer05> and hi!
<hellekin> hi... The linuxwireless page is shit. No content and the only link is broken.
<DocScrutinizer05> you're sufficiently into kernel development to spot the drivers?
<DocScrutinizer05> yep
<DocScrutinizer05> err n ope?
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<DocScrutinizer05> looks good here
<DocScrutinizer05> >>Note: All the HW relevant documentation has been moved to ti.com and we are in the middle of migration. <<
<DocScrutinizer05> >>Please refer to: WiLink8 Products Page for hardware related documents. << http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/wireless_connectivity/wilink/products.page
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<DocScrutinizer05> >>WiLink™ 8 Wi-Fi Driver for Linux OS<< http://www.ti.com/tool/wilink8-wifi-nlcp
<hellekin> is http://www.ti.com/tool/wilink8-wifi-nlcp the right link?
<DocScrutinizer05> >>The NLCP package contains the install package, pre-compiled object and source of the TI Linux Open-Source Wi-Fi image to easily upgrade the default LINUX EZSDK release with the TI WiLink™ family NLCP Wi-Fi driver. The software is built with Linaro GCC 4.7 and can be added to Linux SDKs that use similar toolchain on other platforms<<
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, looks decent
<hellekin> ti.com blocks Tor in a way that doesn't indicate they do :P
<DocScrutinizer05> suckers
<DocScrutinizer05> thanks a lot for taking care, I know you're very busy with devuan right now
<hellekin> there are two links: one to wl12xx, and one to the kernel tree. Should I replace the first with the above link and the second with ql18xx?
<hellekin> wl18xx
<DocScrutinizer05> sounds good
<hellekin> DocScrutinizer05: what's the new ref of the card to replace WL1273L?
<DocScrutinizer05> please rephrase
<DocScrutinizer05> also see
<DocScrutinizer05> ~bd
<infobot> somebody said bd was http://neo900.org/stuff/block-diagrams/neo900/neo900.html the very fine and detailled Block Diagram, or http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1445200#post1445200
<hellekin> wl1837mod or WiLink8?
<DocScrutinizer05> wl1837modgi
<hellekin> WL1837MODGI
<DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
<hellekin> and this one still requires a blob?
<DocScrutinizer05> afaik yep
<hellekin> is it OK now?
<DocScrutinizer05> lemme check
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, looks good, thanks a lot
<hellekin> you're welcome.
<hellekin> I'll probably send the invoice on Monday.
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<Luke-Jr> GI?
<DocScrutinizer05> Luke-Jr: don't ask me, it's TI or the module manuf who came up with this
<Luke-Jr> how is it different from the WL1837MOD?
<DocScrutinizer05> I think there's no such thing like WL1837MOD
<DocScrutinizer05> sort of like OMAP3730 chip actually is named DM3730, and TWL4030 chip actuaqlly is named TPS65950
<DocScrutinizer05> the WL1837 is a chip(set) of the WiLink8 TI series, and one specific variant seems to be WL1837MOD sold as WL1837MODGIMOC or sth like that
<Luke-Jr> DocScrutinizer05: think Neo900 and Pyra could pool modem orders to meet the minimums?
<DocScrutinizer05> probably the characters have some meaning in a key system
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, that was originally the plan, but Pyra is going production now, while Neo900 sort of waiting until Pyra frees up resources for Neo900 development
<Luke-Jr> hm
<Luke-Jr> could sit on them a few months? :p
<DocScrutinizer05> no funds
<Luke-Jr> o
<DocScrutinizer05> see "funding for sourcing risk parts" campaign
<DocScrutinizer05> which didn't reach the threshold for a 'break even' of that calculation
<Luke-Jr> :/
<DocScrutinizer05> ("funding for...) https://my.neo900.org/index.php?id_product=1&controller=product&id_lang=1 >>The PARTIAL FUNDING is required for anticipated sourcing of risk components (hard to source chips, etc.), for advance purchase of case parts, and to cover related expenses, such as R&D.<<
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<DocScrutinizer05> this been calculated assuming that we get a partial funding for each/all of the devices we need to build to make the final break-even on expense of producing a Neo900 vs selling it at the announced pricetag
<DocScrutinizer05> taking into account that a certain fraction of the expense to produce a Neo900 is a fixed cost amount independent of the number of devices to build, we can't finish R&D and source all risk parts early, unless we reach the threshold of preorders needed
<DocScrutinizer05> so our current plan is to build the proto_v2 and show it off, to generate more preorders when people see something tangible
<DocScrutinizer05> and possibly even start a kickstarter then, which needs something tangible anyway before you could do
<DocScrutinizer05> it's all a nasty vicious circle
<DocScrutinizer05> which is getting worse from the delays we suffer from external impacts like PayPal mess and Nikolaus being busy with Pyra
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<Luke-Jr> DocScrutinizer05: I feel bad for suggesting this, but have you considered starting over with a Pyra base? :/
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<DocScrutinizer05> hmm?
<DocScrutinizer05> sorry you lost me. I don't think you suggested selling our customers pyras, who already funded the project to get a N900 successor
<DocScrutinizer05> not that this would fly, even when our customers would accept this. Zhe problem stays absolutely the same
<Luke-Jr> no, I meant take the final Pyra stuff, and add the things it's missing to be a N900 successor
<Luke-Jr> maybe I'm wrong, but I get a sense that the OMAP 3 and low system specs is holding Neo900 back
<DocScrutinizer05> aah, things like smaller formfactor (even pyra is crowded), a OMAP3 instead a OMAP5, and so on?
<Luke-Jr> I see no benefits of OMAP 3 over OMAP 5.
<DocScrutinizer05> well, for one it fits into the N900 case. OMAP5 doesn't
<DocScrutinizer05> second it's maemo-compatible
<Luke-Jr> OMAP 5 is larger physically? O.o
<DocScrutinizer05> yes
<DocScrutinizer05> quite a bit
<Luke-Jr> interesting
<DocScrutinizer05> I don't see the benefit anyway of such approach
<DocScrutinizer05> I don't have access to the Pyra design files
<DocScrutinizer05> and even if I had...
<DocScrutinizer05> I still don't see where's the benefit
<Luke-Jr> better specs -> more appeal to possible customers
<DocScrutinizer05> that's next step, aka STEP2
<DocScrutinizer05> if we can't even pull off Neo900, we for sure can't pull off a project redefinition at a 66% to 75% of the way to completion
<DocScrutinizer05> our customers want a N900 successor, not a leete comsole. They get a pyra if they want that
<DocScrutinizer05> we even suggest they do that, instead of asking for better specs in Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05> see our FAQ
<DocScrutinizer05> maemo is OMAP3 based
<DocScrutinizer05> and Neo900 is meant to run maemo software without even a recompile
<Luke-Jr> isn't everything trivially recompiled?
<Luke-Jr> or you mean the old closed stuff?
<DocScrutinizer05> commercial software? 1000s of packages that are not maintained anymore?
<Luke-Jr> well, CSSU Thumb seems to work for everything..
<DocScrutinizer05> been there, done that, it's not easy to build up a new ecosystem
<DocScrutinizer05> CSSU thiumb still is OMAP3 and runs all maemo software
<DocScrutinizer05> it's just *enabling* to run thumb binaries *too*
<DocScrutinizer05> teher are several closed blobs in maemo still, and this is exactly what we don't want to lose, or pay a crew of developers to try and RE it
<DocScrutinizer05> there*
<DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 ismeant to allow a smooth migration to a blob-free neo-fremantle, and when we achieved that, we can go STEP2 which is meant to be OMAP5 based
<DocScrutinizer05> ~step2
<DocScrutinizer05> meh
<Luke-Jr> I see
<DocScrutinizer05> I just wonder where EvilDragon got the money from to pull off Pyra
<DocScrutinizer05> I know the wages Nikolaus charges
<Luke-Jr> well, he doesn't really have any competition IMO
<DocScrutinizer05> no competition doesn't mean you grow money in the palm of your hand
<DocScrutinizer05> if I had a 200 to 500k€ in the kitty, this project would already have been finished
<DocScrutinizer05> and cheaper too
<DocScrutinizer05> we'd already build a 2nd or 3rd batch, prolly 5 figure number of devices that time
<DocScrutinizer05> resp already would finish STEP2
<Luke-Jr> sadly, I lost my spare 500k in MtGox :<
<DocScrutinizer05> hehe, yeah, I wasted mine on hookers and booze
<DocScrutinizer05> well, not entirely true, actually I lost mine when I worked for Maemo and Neo900 during last 5 years, instead of industry which had earned me even more than 500k in that time
<DocScrutinizer05> but who want to make "truckloads of money" in a boring job when you can work for something as exciting and sensible like a decent open phone
<Luke-Jr> would be nice if you could make "truckloads of money" doing the latter ☺
<DocScrutinizer05> indeed
<DocScrutinizer05> alas those dreams vanished, if they ever existed. Or they got postponed at a point in time quite a while after STEP2
<Luke-Jr> hopefully a decade from now things will have changed for the better :x
<DocScrutinizer05> prolly not. The chip industry gets more and more FOSS and hacker / small hw project hostile
<DocScrutinizer05> another reason why something like Neo900 is important to prove that there's a market for chips with open docs and availability in small quantities
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<Psykus> has something like massdrop been considered to get the unit price down once the design is more finalized?
<DocScrutinizer05> we considered really all we could come up with
<DocScrutinizer05> the point is we can't get the design finalized when we don't have enough preorders
<DocScrutinizer05> so dropping price _after_ we finalized is not exactly our main concern right now
<Psykus> works a bit like kickstarter, post that you would sell $product for $$ if x number of people pledged to buy it
<DocScrutinizer05> we're pondering kickstarter or similar platforms after we finished proto_v2 to show off something tangible. Otherwise odds are we will fail epically with any such campaign
<DocScrutinizer05> we'll have a look at massdrop anyway, thanks for bringing it up
<DocScrutinizer05> or, if you want to help us, you could do the evaluation if massdrop is suited and attractive for Neo900, similarly to what werner did in http://neo900.org/stuff/marketing/cf.pdf, and post your findings to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=96311
<DocScrutinizer05> I can't even browse their projects they host, without registering first
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