<charles`>
Thanks so much. I knew I probably wasn't called that. I just didn't know the right terminology
<beach>
Pleasure. Good luck.
<beach>
And it doesn't have to be a child class, they can be completely independent classes as far as the subclass relationship is concerned.
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<charles`>
It does if I want it to inherit methods though right?
<beach>
Sure. For the original methods to be applicable, it would have to be a child class.
<no-defun-allowed>
Although it likely won't make sense, you could create a class with both the old and new classes as superclasses, and CHANGE-CLASS to that class.
<no-defun-allowed>
There is a library called dynamic-mixins which does that for you; as the name suggests, it makes the most sense for mixin classes.
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<beach>
Never heard of that library. What does it do again?
<no-defun-allowed>
It basically does what I described charles could do, "adding" mixins to an instance by creating a superclass of the old class and the mixin class, and calling CHANGE-CLASS.
<beach>
I see.
<no-defun-allowed>
I modeled my connection protocol off Gray streams, so there is one binary-connection class, and another character-connection class. Now I have a connection class which forwards messages to another connection - are its instances binary-connections or character-connections? It depends on the class of the connection I forward to; and I use dynamic-mixins to update the class of the forwarding connection.
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<lotuseater>
it also tought me for defining SETF methods in its lambda list first the new value then the object (and not the other way around as i tought)
<lotuseater>
hm in my first message of course also the past form of "teach" and not "think"
<beach>
Sounds Indian.
<lotuseater>
why indian? o_O
<beach>
They often can't pronounce "th" and pronounce "t" instead.
* beach
does not understand the nature of accents.
<lotuseater>
oh noez it's "taught". too early here for me :D
<lotuseater>
now as i look on the macroexpand in SBCL for (defstruct person name age) there one can also see first new value then object. but it doesn't use DEFMETHOD but SB-C:XDEFUN
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<lotuseater>
but no beach, i never have been to India, wish i could one day or same parts of asia in general
<no-defun-allowed>
We would be looking for a /θ/ sound.
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<beach>
lotuseater: I have never been either, but I hear people from India talk on TV fairly often.
<beach>
And I still don't understand accents.
<lotuseater>
you mean phonetically?
<beach>
I don't understand why people can't pronounce things they way they hear others pronounce those things.
<beach>
the way
<lotuseater>
haha right, same here (but in another context)
<beach>
And it's not just about not being able to make the sound.
<oni-on-ion>
i think the reason is that some brains work in terms of words/spelling/letters, rather than audio or visual. i heard that these same type of people have no "inner monologue/dialogue"
<oni-on-ion>
back in the day we termed it left brain, right brain
<beach>
Many Germans pronounce English `v' as an English `w', like "enwironment", even though there is a perfectly good `v' in German (spelled `w').
<beach>
I just don't get it.
<oni-on-ion>
same with some east indian, tamil i think. "dodge wiper"
<oni-on-ion>
ancient hebrew the letter 'v' was pronounced as our 'w' and 'u', letters have moved around a bit since
<oni-on-ion>
(where then, the lighter 'b' was used as 'v')
<oni-on-ion>
now i wonder, how come Volkswagen has both W and V
<beach>
Sure, but I still don't understand why, when you stand in front of a native speaker of German, you say "enVironment", then that person can go straight ahead and pronounce it "enWironment" a second later.
<beach>
oni-on-ion: They are pronounced differently.
<Nilby>
Habits of the mouth. Wiring lower than cognition.
<lotuseater>
some german words are the same in english, even in spelling, but don't ask me why. Schnitzel, Kindergarten and so on
<oni-on-ion>
yep as Nilby said. it is related to the reasons why a non-native speaker will pronounce it naturally with an accent, strong or weak. however... they can "act" with british or american accent just fine. it is just about habit vs. intentional effort
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<lotuseater>
hearing stuff like talks or films in English helps also a lot. but a native speaker would recognize the difference when hearing me speaking
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<flip214>
lotuseater: Zeitgeist is popular, too ;)
<lotuseater>
hehe
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<beach>
Happy solstice everyone!
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<beach>
(10:01 UTC)
<no-defun-allowed>
Okay, I'm bored with the sun, you can have it back now.
<beach>
THANK YOU, THANK YOU!
<no-defun-allowed>
But it's kinda big, so it'll come back in six months probably.
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<imode>
Happy soltice!
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<Lycurgus>
somebody, maybe neil degrasse, pointed out that the idea that the days get shorter in wintor and longer summer must be false
<Lycurgus>
since winter starts today and the days will only get longer
<beach>
Lycurgus: That's so biased towards the northern hemisphere.
<imode>
days get shorter towards winter and longer towards summer. inverse for the southern hemisphere.
<Lycurgus>
same deal for summer
<beach>
Plus, that's debatable. I consider winter solstice to be the middle of the winter. Not the beginning.
<Lycurgus>
well it's definitely not the middle here, maybe 20% in at most
<flip214>
imode: the southern hemisphere _also_ gets longer days towards _their_ summer....
<imode>
my family parses it as "as soon as the solstice comes, day length starts growing slowly until it hits peak in summer, then swings back towards its trough"
<Lycurgus>
(rougly 43 north)
<Lycurgus>
*roughly
<beach>
As usual, in #lisp, everything has to be debated to death.
<phoe>
beach: disagreed, not everything
<phoe>
and I'm unwilling to change my position, prove me otherwise
<flip214>
agreed, not everything
<beach>
I don't think you should disagree.
<Lycurgus>
everbody is pretty much in lock/goose step on the parens alignment deal
<imode>
I can find someone to die on this hill.
<phoe>
not everything has to be debated to the death, and I'll gladly debate that to the death
<beach>
:)
* phoe
cough cough
<phoe>
I mean ummmmm
<flip214>
well, if "contradiction isn't an argument", would "consent" be one?
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<jmercouris>
I disagree with our stance on parens
<jmercouris>
wait, was our stance on parens again?
<phoe>
they are too round for 2021, therefore we officially replace them with brackets in CLtL5
<flip214>
jmercouris: the more the better, but only the round ones
<phoe>
[defun foo [bar] [* bar bar]]
<flip214>
phoe: well, then go unicode as well
<no-defun-allowed>
<defun foo <bar> <* bar bar>>
<flip214>
«identity t»
<phoe>
yes
<no-defun-allowed>
Because [] looked too round.
<jmercouris>
lol
<phoe>
≤+ 2 2≥ for weak calls maybe? can return 4 or 3 or 5
<jmercouris>
I’m going to use carets from now on
<jmercouris>
<< 3 5> ; t
<imode>
I wouldn't mind [] as brackets tbh.
<phoe>
anyway
<imode>
I use them in my language.
<imode>
less keypresses.
* phoe
hides before beach returns with his debating comment
<no-defun-allowed>
^+ x xv ; you can't use v in names, also it looks like Smalltalk
<phoe>
imode: actually I have [] and () swapped on my keyboard
<imode>
oh nice.
<no-defun-allowed>
Same here.
<imode>
good idea.
<jmercouris>
same, there’s a way to do it in emacs
<phoe>
imode: in shell, setxkbmap -option parens:swap_brackets
<phoe>
I do it globally in my X session
<imode>
yeah but that'll screw with other stuff. :x
<jmercouris>
pjb had a snippet you can find it in my config
<no-defun-allowed>
I know someone who swapped - and / but it's a bit much.
<jmercouris>
don’t swap globally, only in emacs
<phoe>
I actually do swap globally, I like having parens without pressing shift
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<flip214>
phoe: no shift for parens, but then using emacs? nice dichotomy ;)
<phoe>
flip214: what do you mean
<phoe>
I use leader mode for most emacs commands, less shifting for me :D
* flip214
mutters I've got an editor for you that uses modes instead of special keys...
<flip214>
ah, okay
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't jump between commands and text as frequently as I type parens.
<phoe>
somewhat unrelated, but I really enjoy spacemacs with its modal approach to everything
<phoe>
I don't press control or meta or shift as much as I used to!
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<jmercouris>
why can’t I have a method with a different number of arguments as a method of the same name?
<jackdaniel>
you can given you use &rest arguments or &key &allow-other-keys
<jackdaniel>
but to answer the "why": because methods are parts of the same generic functions
<jackdaniel>
you don't expect a single function to have different signatures, do you?
<jackdaniel>
in other words, methods are *not* functions, they are chunks of a fancy function dubbed "generic"
<jmercouris>
aha
<jmercouris>
so the generic function is responsible for dispatch to the methods?
<jmercouris>
we are always invoking the generic function whose job it is to act like a router?
<mfiano>
You can use specialization-store if you want multiple arity and to be able to specialize on &rest/&key/&optional arguments
<jackdaniel>
more or less, yes
<jackdaniel>
(by "or less" I mean, that it is possible, that there is a mechanism "outside" of the generic function that does the dispatch
<jackdaniel>
)
<jmercouris>
I see
<jmercouris>
mfiano: I’ll look into specialization store, thanks
<jackdaniel>
but conceptually generic function is a bag with methods and depending on arguments methods are invoked /in some order/ (or not invoked)
<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: i finally understand, thanks
<jackdaniel>
sure
<mfiano>
(or to also dispatch on _types_)
<jackdaniel>
(satisfies (random-elt t nil))
<mfiano>
specialization-store requires cltl2 environment support though, so may not work the same everywhere.
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<mfiano>
I use it for the constructors in my linear algebra library, for example to be able to construct 4x4 matrices from 16 scalars, 4 column vectors, a single scalar for identity, etc
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<ldbeth>
good evening
<aeth>
Alternatively, the actual generic function in DEFGENERIC can have many, mandatory arguments, but it can be wrapped in another DEFUN, which you actually call, that has the &optional, &key, or &rest that you want
<aeth>
&rest is problematic, but &optional and &key absolutely could've had a class in DEFGENERIC and it's a flaw that they can't have one. I guess the committee couldn't agree on a syntax.
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<mfiano>
Luckily we have things like filtered-functions to write our own dispatchers
<aeth>
The correct syntax, by the way, would be (variable default-value class supplied-p)
<aeth>
Since you'll probably need a default-value anyway.
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<aeth>
Oh, and you probably always want the &allow-other-keys that jackdaniel brought up for these sorts of APIs because you wouldn't want there to be a breaking change if you added a key.
<aeth>
(assuming the key is actually optional, which most, but not all, tend to be)
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<beach>
It would seem add-package-local-nickname is a function, no?
<beach>
Did you check it's signature?
<phoe>
jurov: case
<phoe>
(read-from-string "|pee|::p") will succeed
<beach>
Ah, heh.
<beach>
Good catch.
<phoe>
your nickname is lowercase, upcase it if you want to type pee::p.
<phoe>
also oh god the pun
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<jackdaniel>
when we have two load-time-value's with the value (make-instance 'foo) (read-only-p defaults to nil), and we load the compiled file, should they be eq to each other?
<jackdaniel>
I think that they should be only when the read-only-p is T, but maybe I'm missing something
<phoe>
"If t, the result is a read-only quantity that can, if appropriate to the implementation, be copied into read-only space and/or coalesced with similar constant objects from other programs."
<phoe>
so if read-only-p is true, then it CAN be coalesced
<jackdaniel>
sure, that's clear
<phoe>
"If nil (the default), the result must be neither copied nor coalesced; it must be considered to be potentially modifiable data. "
<phoe>
so if read-only-p is false, then it MUST NOT be coalesced
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<jackdaniel>
that's my understanding, but I'm usually doubting myself when I see sbcl doing something different
<jackdaniel>
(than what I would anticipate)
<phoe>
what does SBCL do?
<jackdaniel>
coalasces them
<phoe>
could you give an example?
<jackdaniel>
hm, I'm confused, I've rerun my example and it worked as expected
<phoe>
a particularly shy bug
<phoe>
disappears upon closer look
<jackdaniel>
hm, nevermind me then, thanks
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<matta>
Puzzle from a noob -- please help me figure how the right way to do this: (deftype coordinate (simple-array fixnum (3)))
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<matta>
I want to be able to use 'coordinate in check-type, (declare (type (coordinate foo))), etc.
<phoe>
you forgot the type lambda list, and you need to quote the return value
<matta>
Ahhh, I had tried quoting but forgot the type lambda list. Thanks!
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<matta>
Learning new languages teaches one to be humble. ;-)
<phoe>
no problem! good luck, and feel free to ask any more questions you may have
<aeth>
matta: do you actually want coordinates to be fixnums?
<aeth>
That means you have no control over the size
<aeth>
you could do e.g. (signed-byte 32) and most implementations will probably support that size
<aeth>
Implementations have to support simple-character, character, and bit arrays. They almost certainly support (unsigned-byte 8) arrays. They also likely support single-float, double-float, and signed/unsigned bytes for 8, 16, and 32
<aeth>
So you have a fair bit of control over which kind of arrays you use
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<phoe>
fixnum is at minimum ub16
<_death>
signed-byte 16
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<phoe>
oops - sorry
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<phoe>
Xach: updated the readme of quicklisp-stats to mention the new cutoff of 1000 projects.
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<varjag>
slyrus: yep, a kind of morphological thinning, among the better ones
<varjag>
i'll tidy up and make a pr
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<jmercouris>
anyone know of a GitHub API wrapper in CL?
<jmercouris>
trying to figure out a way to automate backing-up discussions from GitHub, I see that it is not yet on their API, but I imagine it will come sooner or later
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