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<phoe>
today's funniest SBCL moment: the return value of #<FUNCTION (LAMBDA (&OPTIONAL &REST &KEY &ALLOW-OTHER-KEYS &OPTIONAL)) {52AE0C8B}>
<phoe>
time to go to sleep
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<pfdietz>
(downloads the acm tex template) ELS is not an ACM conference though, right?
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<fe[nl]ix>
pfdietz: it's not
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<pfdietz>
So I wonder what, if anything, goes into those ACM-specific fields in the tex template.
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<charles`>
Has anyone gotten (usocket:socket-server...) to pass the client socket as an argument to the handler function?
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<charles`>
I guess it is kind of irrelevant isn't it
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<phantomics>
Morning beach
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<contrapunctus>
o/
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<beach>
Hello contrapunctus.
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<contrapunctus>
Hey, beach
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<contrapunctus>
I tried building an executable by following the cookbook - it uses `sbcl --load foo.asd ...`, which fails for me. It seems ASDF is not being loaded before the .asd is? It says that `((:file "src/foo.lisp"))` (value of `:components`) is an illegal function call, and that `defsystem` is an undefined function ๐ค
<birdwing>
(defvar *out-streams* '()) (with-output-to-string (srm) (push srm *out-streams*))(format t "~A" out-streams*);==>> CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 41150 tid 41150: Memory fault at 0x7f35 The integrity of this image is possibly compromised. Continuing with fingers crossed. (SB-KERNEL:OUTPUT-UGLY-OBJECT #<BROADCAST-STREAM {100003DC43}> #<error
<birdwing>
printing object>)
<birdwing>
sbcl 2.0.11
<beach>
Sounds bad.
<birdwing>
please forward it to #sbcl , thank you
<beach>
What setting for the SAFETY OPTIMIZE quality do you have.
<beach>
Er, are you asking #lisp participants to do the forwarding?
<birdwing>
in my .sbclrc I have this (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute :load-toplevel) (proclaim '(optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (speed 0) (space 0)))
<rogersm>
works fine in SBCL 2.0.11
<rogersm>
Darwin xxx 19.6.0 Darwin Kernel Version 19.6.0: Mon Aug 31 22:12:52 PDT 2020; root:xnu-6153.141.2~1/RELEASE_X86_64 x86_64
<beach>
birdwing: That does sound bad then.
<rogersm>
yep
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<birdwing>
Archlinux x86_64 ; ros list installed => sbcl-bin/2.0.11
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<rogersm>
taking into account how many binaries have been core dumping in my mac lately, I'm happy to see this is not troubling me
<birdwing>
with sbcl 2.0.10 I get the same bug ; no quicklisp loaded , the only thing in my .sbclrc is (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute :load-toplevel) (proclaim '(optimize (safety 3) (debug 3) (speed 0) (space 0)))
<rogersm>
let me check with your .sbclrc
<rogersm>
yes, I'm able to replicate in a mac
<rogersm>
as a doctor would say: don't do that if you have headaches :D
<birdwing>
phoe, beach: it's code from the ytools package . I like the (out) function , I ve been using it it with *standard-output* until now but it saves the streams in a table and this lead to this undefined behavior when I used it with with-output-to-stream . https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/9a1rj/eliminating_format_from_lisp/ "My problem with out
<birdwing>
is that it is part of YTools and I have not (over the last 3 or 4 attempts) been able to successfully install and use it." here's a working version: https://paste.ofcode.org/mYeZRCLZDNHB2Z39L4swzx
<phoe>
oh, yes - you cannot use it with w-o-t-s. these streams become invalid once the scope of w-o-t-s expires, and this means that you literally have a hole in your memory safety that is about to suck you out through it when you try to refer to that object.
<phoe>
or, in other words - a dangling pointer, which is a big no-no in a memory-safe world of Lisp.
<phoe>
what sort of table does it save to?
<birdwing>
(defvar out-streams* '()) ; a simple assoc list
<phoe>
is ytoola available on github somewhere? where can I find its source code?
<phoe>
that's bad. it treats all streams as having indefinite extent, which is a bug in the library UNLESS the documentation also explicitly mentions that OUT cannot be used with DX streams *WHATSOEVER*, which reduces the usability of the OUT macro because format can be used there just fine.
<birdwing>
the paste.ofcode above is loadable ( I extracted it from http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/dvm/software/ytools.tar.gz , which is not asdf loadable. That's why I shared it here maybe others also like that (out) function and want to use it
<phoe>
that code would enjoy some modernization and possibly have some of its chunks removed - it seems that e.g. yt-install/yt-load has been superseded with ASDF
<birdwing>
yeah
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<beach>
I wonder whether a general write barrier could also catch an attempt to stick an object with dynamic extent in an object with indefinite extent.
<phoe>
hm, as long as you have a way to mark DX'd object in some way
<phoe>
oh wait, you have a way to mark those
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<beach>
The address.
<phoe>
they're allocated on the stack, which is a separate memory region
<beach>
Exactly.
<phoe>
but... that gives you little
<phoe>
(dx-let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (let ((y (list x x x))) ...))
<phoe>
right now we have a DX object inside a non-DX object
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<phoe>
and this is valid Lisp code and we can use both X and Y normally inside of their combined dynamic scope
<beach>
Which one is the non-DX object?
<phoe>
Y
<beach>
It looks DX to me.
<phoe>
DX-LET implicitly does DECLARE DYNAMIC-EXTENT
<phoe>
that was my intent
<phoe>
but there's no such declaration for Y so I assume it gets allocated on the heap.
<beach>
I am not talking about declarations, but about what some escape analysis will determine.
<phoe>
(dx-let ((x (list 1 2 3))) (let ((y (list x x x))) ... y))
<phoe>
if you call CDDDDR on the return value of this, you should be able to get NIL
<beach>
Whether Y gets allocated on the heap or on the stack is not important. The question is the access to Y.
<phoe>
even if it is a list full of dangling pointers, it is still a proper list so it ends with a NIL
<phoe>
so in this last case Y must be heap-allocated
<phoe>
and even if we figure out that sticking X in Y results in a DX object being stuck in a IX object - what's next?
<phoe>
(IX = Indefinite eXtent)
<beach>
But if Y is returned this way, then it is not DX which a simple analysis will tell you.
<phoe>
yes - sorry for the confusion
<phoe>
but may main question is - yes, even if you catch that "attempt", what will you do with it?
<beach>
Since it is undefined behavior, an error could be signaled.
<contrapunctus>
Anyone have an idea about my sbcl executable issue? ๐ค
<beach>
phoe: You may be right that not all cases can be detected. It was just a thought.
<beach>
I haven't thought it through completely.
<birdwing>
contrapunctus: this issue? "I tried building an executable by following the cookbook - it uses `sbcl --load foo.asd ...`, which fails for me. It seems ASDF is not being loaded before the .asd is? It says that `((:file "src/foo.lisp"))` (value of `:components`) is an illegal function call, and that `defsystem` is an undefined function"
<phoe>
but I have no idea if it would rank high on your priority list, all in all.
<phoe>
contrapunctus: hmmmmm, after the require, do (in-package :asdf-user)
<birdwing>
(with-output-to-string (srm) (out (:to srm "Hello"))) I think the crash happens at line 99 https://paste.ofcode.org/mYeZRCLZDNHB2Z39L4swzx how can one check that the pointer is invalid so it should skip checking if it's a valid stream? (streamp invalid_pointer)
<phoe>
birdwing: you don't
<phoe>
OUT is in the wrong here and must be corrected
<birdwing>
yes, I mean in the out sourcecode
<phoe>
I mean not the sourcecode, I mean the architecture
<birdwing>
it does a cleanup of that table with lingering dead streams
<birdwing>
during that cleanup it crashes because it tries to do (streamp dead_stream)
<phoe>
it must *NOT* store all streams inside its inner cache and expect them to be of indefinite extent
<birdwing>
yes, so what's the right architecture that we shall use
<phoe>
you can't call a function on a dangling pointer. you can't even detect if a pointer is dangling or not once it's introduced into the system.
<phoe>
I'd start with removing the OUT's stream cache and/or making it optional
<beach>
phoe: Yes, exactly.
<phoe>
the latter would be useful if you could specify (out (:cache-stream-p nil) ...) so it doesn't cache DX streams
<phoe>
but that would still put the burden on the programmer.
<birdwing>
i don't even know why it would cache it
<phoe>
I know, right?
<phoe>
that's why I suggested the former, too
<beach>
phoe: Even better, migrate the object to the heap.
<phoe>
beach: wait
<phoe>
how do you do that?
<phoe>
(with-output-to-string (x) ...) ;; how do you migrate X to the heap?
<beach>
Garbage collectors migrate objects all the time.
<contrapunctus>
phoe: thanks, finally made my first CL executable ๐
<phoe>
beach: no, I mean, how do you do that from inside portable CL?
<birdwing>
"i don't even know why it would cache it" oh i got it, it caches it to avoid repeated creation of Out-stream for the same stream
<beach>
phoe: Oh, it can't be done portably. I am thinking in terms of system implementation.
<phoe>
birdwing: well then, it needs a way to not cache streams that it should not cache.
<contrapunctus>
phoe: should I make a PR for the cookbook to amend those command lines?
<phoe>
beach: oh. well then, that's a separate discussion.
<phoe>
contrapunctus: you should make an issue detailing your problem - maybe there's a better solution than the one I suggested
<phoe>
birdwing: so if a cache is useful, then OUT needs a way to avoid caching stuff - so my second suggestion
<phoe>
(out (:cache-stream-p nil) ...)
<birdwing>
that would be a way. I think wrapping a block of code with (let (utilz::out-streams* (list))
<birdwing>
would also disable the dangerous caching
<phoe>
sorta
<phoe>
using an internal symbol is sorta iffy.
<phoe>
also, it wouldn't necessarily avoid the issue completely - you're still leaking an object outside its scope, it's just that you drop the invalid reference to it right afterwards.
<phoe>
which is borderline correct.
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<birdwing>
phoe: I made a with-out-to-string macro to be used instead of with-output-to-string when one wants to use (out), so that the programmer doesn't have to manually disable caching on each call to (out)
<phoe>
I assume that WITH-OUT-TO-STRING could expand into such a call
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<birdwing>
ok
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<_death>
in my OUT I do no such caching
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<_death>
ytools OUT does it to maintain indentation state.. I let the user create an indenting stream explicitly.. OUT ops for indentation can then be defined so you can have things like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2208#2208
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<phoe>
I have an issue with my emacs indenting UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE incorrectly - the second argument is indented by 4 instead of by 2.
<phoe>
(trivial-indent:define-indentation uiop:define-package (4 &body)) is not enough to fix it.
<phoe>
how do I begin debugging this?
<phoe>
it seems that emacs indents all sorts of DEFINE-FOO forms in the same way, and this overrides whatever swank is attempting to tell it
* phoe
thinks
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<Nilby>
I'm sorry. I'm sure you know about the emacs debugger. I was sadly noting the other day that emacs still can't indent lisp properly. I've been it using nearly every day since it was written (~40 years). I feel like any regexp base approach will never be 100%. Having a full CL reader and the something like the XP pretty printer, might do it though.
<Nilby>
I wonder if eny emacs ever has done it flawlessly? Zmacs maybe?
<Nilby>
Another fun exmaple is try a paren and the beginning of a line in a docstring.
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<phoe>
yes, \( is required
<Nilby>
But as my boss used to say "You find a bug, you fix it."
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<contrapunctus>
Is there an anaphoric map for CL? (like --map in dash.el) I looked through serapeum and anaphora to no avail ๐ค
<Xach>
What does --map in dash.el do?
<phoe>
_death: yes, I'm figuring out how to run this on spacemacs now
<contrapunctus>
Xach: the argument passed to the function is accessible via `it`, so one can write `(--map (fn foo it) seq)` instead of `(map (lambda (it) (fn foo it)) seq)`
<Xach>
ok
<contrapunctus>
(I suppose I could use a lambda shorthand too.)
<Xach>
I don't know of anything like that offhand, but it's not something I've ever looked for.
<phoe>
_death: (put 'define-package 'common-lisp-indent-function '(4 2)) works well enough
<_death>
phoe: the real question is why define-package uses &rest and not &body
<Nilby>
You can say: (map nil (it (foo it)) seq)
<_death>
phoe: and then, sbcl's defpackage uses &rest too.. weird
<phoe>
_death: same--- yes
<Nilby>
If you first: (defmacro it (&rest e) `(lambda (it) (declare (ignorable it)) ,@e))
<contrapunctus>
Heh, I think I'll use `loop` instead.
<_death>
contrapunctus: or stop worrying about lambda :)
<_death>
pretty-lambdas makes things short anyway
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<contrapunctus>
Is there any easy way to make Emacs indent all CL forms with 2 spaces, i.e. in the defun way?
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<phoe>
wait a second, ALL of them?
<phoe>
why would you do that
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<contrapunctus>
Hate masses of whitespace :\
<phoe>
also, 2 spaces is PROGN; defun has the function name and lambda list indented with 4 spaces instead
<_death>
I don't think we should encourage weird indentations like that
<phoe>
+1
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<contrapunctus>
Q_Q
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<Nilby>
contrapunctus: CL indenting is complex and deep aethetic art, which appears simple on the surfaces, so you're probably not thinking of all the edge cases that these folk have been fixing as we speak
<contrapunctus>
_death: by "pretty-lambdas" do you mean prettify-symbols-mode? ๐ค
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<contrapunctus>
phoe: so not even fixing the logic errors fixed it...this is the script. http://ix.io/2Jql
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<contrapunctus>
All I can tell from the backtrace is that something went awry in the sqlite library, probably FFI.
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<phoe>
oh! you're using a foreign library
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<phoe>
then you'll need a backtrace to figure out what might have went wrong where.
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<contrapunctus>
Or just switch to a different database library? ๐ค
<phoe>
avoiding foreign dependencies is a tactic, yes
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<pfdietz>
And "flet" is pronounced like "flay"
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<birdwing>
contrapunctus: https://codeburst.io/doing-without-databases-in-the-21st-century-6e25cf495373 "manardb is a portable (across Lisps on Linux) memory mapped database for Common Lisp. It frees one from the garbage collector but stays within MOP. According to our benchmarks, when instantiating a object with two slots one million times, manardb is about seven times faster than AllegroCache 2.1.11 on Allegro 8.1, and about fifteen
<birdwing>
times faster than AllegroCache on SBCL 1.0.31. It is more than ten times faster to iterate over the 1M objects created and sum the values of one numeric slot on Allegro Lisp, and about one hundred times faster on SBCL." "7 up to 15 times faster, is a good number" --it saves to disk, it's not an in memory db ; it uses mmap for fast acces -- check: https://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/ruins-of-forgotten-empires-apl-lang
<aeth>
pfdietz: Actually, flet follows French rules, so you don't know how to pronounce it without knowing what follows it. If it's followed by a vowel, you do pronounce the t.
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<phoe>
I have a character denoting a hexadecimal digit. What would be the most performant way of converting it to an (unsigned-byte 4)?
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<phoe>
I could compute its char-code and then use several IF < to figure it out. Or I could try doing a CASE and hope it gets properly transformed.
<Krystof>
(digit-char-p <character> 16)
<TMA>
phoe: there is a standard conforming predicate for digits, where the digit value is the true value
<TMA>
this one
<phoe>
!!!
<phoe>
I knew I forgot about this one
<phoe>
thank you
<Krystof>
the inverse is (digit-char <digit> <base>) in case you need it
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<phoe>
thank you
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<flip214>
is that the most performant way? I can think of a check against #\F and then looking up a table, directly doing a few boundary checks and a subtraction (or LOGAND), a jump table, and perhaps some more
<flip214>
and "the most performant way" - for which architecture resp. which CPU exactly? Perhaps there's an SSE4 opcode or so...
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<phoe>
I'll assume that the implementation knows what it's doing
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<Nilby>
Yes, thanks to Krystof's and others hard work, we can say (digit-char-p #\เญญ) (digit-char-p #\๐) and (digit-char-p #\๏ผ), although sometimes I think (digit-char-p #\ๅ) (digit-char-p #\โ) should also work.
<Nilby>
but maybe (digit-char-p #\ยฝ) => 1/2 would be going too far
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* contrapunctus
tries clsql, and...WARNING: Requested version "2.0" but #<ASDF/SYSTEM:SYSTEM "uffi"> has no version :\
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<phoe>
contrapunctus: where are you getting your uffi from? quicklisp?
<contrapunctus>
phoe: yeah
<phoe>
(asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :uffi)) ;=> "2.0.0" for me
<phoe>
huh
<phoe>
what is (asdf:system-source-directory (asdf:find-system :uffi)) for you?
<contrapunctus>
And NIL here ๐ค
<phoe>
wait a second...
<phoe>
hm
<phoe>
what's your source directory?
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<phoe>
for me it's #P"/home/phoe/.roswell/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/uffi-20180228-git/"
<contrapunctus>
dafawk, why did it put all that in my files ._.
<phoe>
all what in your files
<contrapunctus>
The...local copies of the libraries.
<contrapunctus>
("dists"?)
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<phoe>
what's the last part of the string? uffi-20180228-git?
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<contrapunctus>
software/cffi_0.16.1/uffi-compat/
<phoe>
hmmm
<phoe>
0.16.1 is ancient
<phoe>
(ql:update-all-dists)
<contrapunctus>
But whatever made it install stuff in that directory? ๐ค
<phoe>
quicklisp, most likely
<phoe>
the question is, why are you using an ancient version of CFFI
<contrapunctus>
(asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :uffi)) is still NIL ๐
<phoe>
(ql:update-all-dists) (ql:quickload :uffi)
<contrapunctus>
Yeah, that's what I did
<phoe>
oh wait a second...
<phoe>
(ql:quickload :cffi-uffi-compat) rather
<phoe>
after restarting your image
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<contrapunctus>
phoe: thanks, that got me uffi v2.0.
<phoe>
good
<Nilby>
We're lucky to have phoe's excellent Lisp developer support.
* phoe
blush
<contrapunctus>
However, now if I (ql:quickload :clsql-sqlite) -> UFFI is a nickname for the package CFFI-UFFI-COMPAT ๐ค
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<phoe>
oh
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<phoe>
(ql:quickload :clsql-cffi) before (ql:quickload :clsql-sqlite) could help maybe
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<contrapunctus>
Same error
<phoe>
reload the image and try again!
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<contrapunctus>
Thank heavens \o/
<phoe>
:3
<Alfr_>
So much for image based development some people long for.
<oni-on-ion>
squeak/smalltalk does it a bit better. with ChangeSets, built-in version control and source code in the image. i think that is vital.
<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
Lisp has no package versioning or ability to handle multiple versions of a system
<phoe>
that's what beach's FCGEs attempt to solve in the future
<Nilby>
In old lisps the source was in the image e.g. function-lambda-expression
<contrapunctus>
I figured I might try running the program as a cl-launch script before bailing on cl-sqlite and rewriting it to use clsql.
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<contrapunctus>
I added `#!/usr/bin/cl -s csv -s serapeum -s sqlite -E main` to the top of the file, but I get `Component "csv" not found, required by #<SYSTEM "cl-launch-build-0">`
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<Nilby>
Lisp machines effectively had FCGEs and built-in versioning, but it's reasonable to leave that optional in the base language.
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<lotuseater>
Nilby: what does FCGE stand for?
<contrapunctus>
lotuseater: First Class Global Environments
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<lotuseater>
ah thx :)
<Nilby>
^ yes
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