<moon-child>
no-defun-allowed: true, but their strings are [Char], which has caused endless consternation
<lotuseater>
Bike: but what didn't fit in my head yet is when I do READ-CHAR but also want to jump back how to do it
rumbler3_ has joined #lisp
cosimone has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
cosimone_ is now known as cosimone
<lotuseater>
moon-child: yes it is awful (but can for simple stuff also be useful) newer libs like RIO are better if you don't like that or the hole Prelude
<cl-arthur>
UNREAD-CHAR. PEEK-CHAR is also useful.
<lotuseater>
damn. yes PEEK-CHAR
<cl-arthur>
read-char -> peek-char -> unread-char. now you know the next two chars in the stream XD
<lotuseater>
yeah and you can give peek-char a char, but if it's not found it seems to throw me to the debugger
<lotuseater>
hm sometimes I miss in LOOP stuff like collect but giving a typed vector back
<lotuseater>
ok thx no-defun-allowed. hope it doesn't seem to trivial to you
<no-defun-allowed>
(peek-char peek-type) accepts peek-type = NIL to peek the very next character, = T to peek at the next non-whitespace character, and a character to peek at the next character char= to that one.
<lotuseater>
nice
Jach[m] has joined #lisp
<lotuseater>
there seems also to be STREAM-PEEK-CHAR and others
ape666 has joined #lisp
<no-defun-allowed>
I think that is the generic function you can use with Gray streams to implement PEEK-CHAR.
bilegeek has joined #lisp
<lotuseater>
ah yes, had some errors with graystreams, but don't know enough about it
pve has quit [Quit: leaving]
cosimone has quit [Quit: cosimone]
EvW has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Fare has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
sjl has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Fare has joined #lisp
frodef has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
zcheng3 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
jw4 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
dim has joined #lisp
ljavorsk has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
xrash has joined #lisp
taof has left #lisp ["ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)"]
wglb``` has joined #lisp
rumbler3_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
wglb`` has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
zcheng3 has joined #lisp
isBEKaml has joined #lisp
ape666 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
pankajsg has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
shifty has joined #lisp
amplituhedron has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
amplituhedron has joined #lisp
amplituhedron has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
Josh_2 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Lord_of_Life has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
Lord_of_Life has joined #lisp
Oladon has joined #lisp
rumbler3_ has joined #lisp
surabax has quit [Quit: Leaving]
ape666 has joined #lisp
zcheng3 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
rumbler3_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
JohnnyL has joined #lisp
dvdmuckle has quit [Quit: Bouncer Surgery]
KREYREEN has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
KREYREEN has joined #lisp
dvdmuckle has joined #lisp
JohnnyL has quit [Quit: leaving]
aartaka_d has joined #lisp
aartaka has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
isBEKaml has quit [Quit: leaving]
ape666 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Stanley00 has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
Fare has quit [Quit: Leaving]
ldb has joined #lisp
<ldb>
what is the implementation behind CL's resizable array?
<no-defun-allowed>
One way to implement it is to have a header object, which references a storage vector. Then when you resize the array, you copy the contents of the old storage vector to a new storage vector and swap the old one out.
<ldb>
i know that is the O(n) extra space one
<ldb>
but does any implementation take the O(sqrt n) minimal extra space approch
<Bike>
what approach would that be?
<moon-child>
ldb: if you grow your allocation chunk size exponentially, then the number of times you have to copy goes O(lgn) in the number of items you add
<no-defun-allowed>
SBCL extends a vector with vector-push-extend by 50% of its length, from memory.
xrash has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<ldb>
This paper describles a improvement on the 50% expansion approch, reduces the extra memory usuage to minimal, and still has the same time complexity
Fare has joined #lisp
<no-defun-allowed>
It looks like AREF would be slower, and I don't know of any Lisp systems that use buddy allocation.
dim has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<ldb>
I think the buddy system is for languages with manual memory management, the core data structure is sufficient to be used with GC
<no-defun-allowed>
Right.
dim has joined #lisp
nihil has joined #lisp
mister_m has joined #lisp
zaquest has quit [Quit: Leaving]
nihil has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Aurora_v_kosmose has quit [Quit: later]
zaquest has joined #lisp
rumbler31 has joined #lisp
rumbler31 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Stanley00 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Alfr_ has joined #lisp
Alfr has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
thefunc5 has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
<phantomics>
Morning beach
retropikzel has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
Bike has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
<ebrasca>
Morning beach!
ebrasca has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
shifty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
ldb has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
narimiran has joined #lisp
miasuji has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
miasuji has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
miasuji has joined #lisp
Necktwi has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
miasuji has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
Stanley00 has joined #lisp
miasuji has joined #lisp
orivej has joined #lisp
zcheng3 has joined #lisp
waleee-cl has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
dim has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Lycurgus has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
skapata has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
pankajsg has joined #lisp
skapata has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
Nilby has joined #lisp
skapata has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
dim has joined #lisp
skapata has joined #lisp
shifty has joined #lisp
galex-713 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
vsync has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
treflip has joined #lisp
Nilby has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
galex-713 has joined #lisp
Oladon has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
loli has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
loli has joined #lisp
pfdietz has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
Nilby has joined #lisp
retropikzel has joined #lisp
loli has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
rumbler3_ has joined #lisp
retropikzel has joined #lisp
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
rumbler3_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
treflip has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
treflip has joined #lisp
aartaka has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
aartaka_d has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
aaaaaa has quit [Quit: leaving]
Lycurgus has quit [Quit: Exeunt]
leo_song_ has joined #lisp
leo_song has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
Younder has quit [Quit: Leaving]
andreyorst` has joined #lisp
andreyorst` has quit [Client Quit]
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
andreyorst` has joined #lisp
treflip has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
zcheng3 has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
treflip has joined #lisp
ggole has joined #lisp
treflip has quit [Client Quit]
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
pillton_ has joined #lisp
pillton has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
scymtym has joined #lisp
kir0ul_ has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
toorevitimirp has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
miasuji has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
miasuji has joined #lisp
miasuji has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
hiroaki has joined #lisp
miasuji has joined #lisp
miasuji has quit [Max SendQ exceeded]
miasuji has joined #lisp
random-nick has joined #lisp
aartaka has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
madage has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
madage has joined #lisp
<flip214>
Does someone have a gist to fetch all the COPYING, LICENSE, etc. files from all the loaded QL systems?
Lord_of_Life has joined #lisp
<flip214>
The asdf only has a short license name (in different upper/lowercase versions etc.), and some licenses require the authors' names to be mentioned
retropikzel has joined #lisp
gabbiel has joined #lisp
leo_song has joined #lisp
leo_song_ has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Cymew has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
gabbiel has left #lisp ["ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)"]
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
skapata has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
liberliver has joined #lisp
frost-lab has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
mbomba has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.0]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
Necktwi has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
amb007 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
amb007 has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
* adlai
wonders whether there is any legal precedent regarding the proper labelling of files containing that grade of toxic waste
amb007 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<phoe>
legal, I think not; practical, they're called COPYING or LICENSE or sometimes the license text is spliced into the README
<phoe>
so it's kind of a mess
amb007 has joined #lisp
<adlai>
someone could claim that they only read licenses labelled "COPYING", because they only redistribute code without ever running it.
<adlai>
flip214: my repl history might have something for you.
rumbler3_ has joined #lisp
<adlai>
... nope; and iirc, what I did run earlier, was only treeing the asdf fields
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
<adlai>
there were few enough installed systems that I "only" encountered a singlehandedly-digital number of (complement #'equal) names for identical licenses.
<adlai>
however, it was the kind of garbage-in-garbage-out that made me afk^hrepl for long enough to forget my paranoiae about intellectual property.
rumbler3_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
<Nilby>
About 750 of 4330 systems I have "loaded" have the liscense field blank. Some licenses have interesting names, such as "BSD or Bugroff" and "do whatever the fuck you want".
<flip214>
Nilby: asdf::primary-system-p could help you to remove all the -tests and similar systems.
<flip214>
and QL doesn't distribute a source link (incl. git hash) with the system list, right?
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
<flip214>
well, I guess I'll just make a heuristic that fetches the README.md, .asd, and one of LICENSE|COPYING|similar stuff
<Nilby>
flip214: Thanks. But I think in my case I want those in there.
<Nilby>
flip214: I made a function to look it up in the quicklisp-projects repo.
<flip214>
Nilby: would you share it here? and make a PR for inclusion in QL proper?
<Nilby>
For this to work you need a checked out quicklisp-projects so it probably can't be in quicklisp proper and probably. I have done some work on a quicklisp tool of sorts.
shifty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<flip214>
Nilby: yeah, just found out that I don't have the source.txt files
<flip214>
it would be great if that would just be another (optional) file in each QL dist
<Nilby>
I think Xach has something planned, but if I ever get my thing done, we could have a project metadata extract.
pve has joined #lisp
scymtym has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<flip214>
it would also be great if everything that's needed for distributing would be available in a central QL place... so the license name, authors (if 4-clause bsd), link to license file (github or whereever), etc.
<Nilby>
Yes.
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
scymtym has joined #lisp
<flip214>
what is needed to get trivial-signal working on Windows? I'd like to catch ctrl-c, but the various GCC.EXE I can find just say "sorry, unimplemented: 64bit mode is not included"
iskander has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
hendursa1 has joined #lisp
iskander has joined #lisp
retropikzel has joined #lisp
<Alfr_>
flip214, posix signals implementation in windows.
hendursaga has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<flip214>
Alfr_: mingw/cygwin already emulates so much, so I think it should be possible... it's just that grovelling fails, because I can't find a 64bit mingw gcc for windows
<flip214>
stdint.h is 64bit already
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
<Alfr_>
Never dug into these. I don't know, sorry.
retropikzel has joined #lisp
<flip214>
thanks anyway!
hnOsmium0001 has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
leo_song_ has joined #lisp
<Nilby>
If you're on sbcl I think you can just handle sb-sys:interactive-interrupt.
<Nilby>
trivial-signal should be fine on "cygwin" or WSL but doesn't work on plain "windows".
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
treflip has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.6]
<flip214>
Nilby: well, on linux I also catch another signal to reload the config, and so on.
<flip214>
but thanks!
<Nilby>
sorry for using too many #\quotation_mark
rumbler31 has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
sunwukong has joined #lisp
<flip214>
no problem at all
retropikzel has joined #lisp
toorevitimirp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
toorevitimirp has joined #lisp
frodef has joined #lisp
rumbler31 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
podge has joined #lisp
sunwukong has quit [Quit: ERC (IRC client for Emacs 27.1)]
loli has joined #lisp
srandon111 has joined #lisp
<srandon111>
hello all guys i wanted to start with lisp, i watched the SICP lessons and tried some racket but would like to try some lisp, which dialect do you suggest?
<beach>
srandon111: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp.
<beach>
srandon111: So you won't get an unbiased opinion here.
<srandon111>
beach, which are common options here?
<beach>
srandon111: But perhaps you mean "which implementation of Common Lisp" rather than "which dialect"?
<srandon111>
common lisp is the most common option out there? is it modern or like an old abandoned language
<srandon111>
beach, i was thinking common lisp was an implementation of lisp
<phoe>
it's not
<beach>
srandon111: The common options consist of Common Lisp, as far as this channel is concerned.
<srandon111>
phoe, can you explain please?
<phoe>
Lisp is 1) a family of languages, 2) a short term refering to Common Lisp
<phoe>
in #lisp, we use the second meaning like 100% of the time
<phoe>
Common Lisp is a dialect of its own, like Scheme, Clojure, Racket, Shen, Carp, PicoLisp, and what else
<White_Flame>
common lisp basically was the most commercially used lisp variant (and absorbed all the commercial variants). others are more academic or internal/scripting
<phoe>
and it's definitely not abandoned
<srandon111>
ok phoe which are the more common/modern/used lisps?
<White_Flame>
*in its heyday
<phoe>
Common Lisp is one of them; Racket and Clojure also see some sizeable interest
<phoe>
##lisp might suit you a bit better - it's for discussing the whole family of languages
<phoe>
whereas #lisp is strictly about Common Lisp
<beach>
srandon111: There is no widely accepted definition of "Lisp", so it is hard to answer your question.
<beach>
srandon111: Especially in a channel that is dedicated to Common Lisp.
<White_Flame>
the original lisp implementation was very simple and grew into many branches
ljavorsk has joined #lisp
froggey has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
holger has joined #lisp
holger is now known as Guest69514
Guest69514 has quit [Client Quit]
froggey has joined #lisp
holger1 has joined #lisp
<srandon111>
okok beach i see thanks for all the details
holger1 has quit [Client Quit]
emys has joined #lisp
emys has quit [Client Quit]
<beach>
srandon111: We recommend Common Lisp. It is a modern language with features that no other language has.
emys_ has joined #lisp
<srandon111>
what i was exploring with common lisp, is checking out libraries/modules available... since i use neo4j for other projects... i saw this.. https://github.com/kraison/cl-neo4j
<srandon111>
now my thing is... where is the documentation? or should i be able to read the code? is reading code easier in lisp?
<phoe>
CL has a specification named CLHS
<phoe>
you might want to spend some time reading Practical Common Lisp to get used to the syntax
<beach>
I think srandon111 may be referring to the documentation of cl-neo4j.
<phoe>
and to the various aspects of the language
<phoe>
oh! I see
<phoe>
no idea, I guess that depends on the library in question
<beach>
srandon111: If your question is "What Lisp dialect should I choose so that I can use something like neo4j with it", then that is a very tough and very specific question.
<edgar-rft>
I think neo4j is #java ?
rumbler31 has joined #lisp
<loke[m]>
Wasn't ABCL originally built for an editor?
<phoe>
edgar-rft: it has non-Java external interfaces though
<phoe>
(AFAIR)
mbomba has joined #lisp
<edgar-rft>
ah, yes, from reading the code I see that cl-neo4j uses drakma and a web interface
<adlai>
srandon111: "common lisp" describes implementations that have benefitted most from various overfunded industries, and committees, near the end of the previous century.
rumbler31 has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
<phoe>
adlai: more like language specification rather than implementations, isn't it?
<phoe>
all CL implementations conform to the standard, after all
* adlai
thinks of it as a live thing, consisting of large reptiles, armed amniotes, and ballistic garbage collectors, although you are free to use the term to describe a book instead
* phoe
blinks
<phoe>
ooooookay
<edgar-rft>
srandon111: one of the advantages of using Common Lisp is that the language doesn't change every other year, so you can be pretty sure that your code still will run 10 or 20 years ahead, but because the language hasn't changed in the last 25 years it's sometimes a bit of work to implement newfangled things :-)
imode has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<Posterdati>
hi
<Posterdati>
is anyone using Common Lisp with ROS?
aartaka_d has joined #lisp
<phoe>
Posterdati: me
<phoe>
though I only use ros for installing new SBCL versions
aartaka has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<Posterdati>
phoe: I'd like to install it on a debian 10...
<Posterdati>
phoe: I need to test a PID implementation for a robotic project
<phoe>
Posterdati: grab a deb package from GitHub then
<no-defun-allowed>
You could also install a SBCL of dubious age from the package manager, then use that to bootstrap a new SBCL. Or if there's newer packages, as phoe says...
<Posterdati>
phoe: I installed the one from the debian repository, but cannot make it work
<no-defun-allowed>
What version does Debian 10 ship? Knowing Debian, you could do with a newer version.
<edgar-rft>
sbcl1.4.16 (installed one or two weeks ago)
<phoe>
Posterdati: what's the actual issue?
<phoe>
roswell auto-downloads its own SBCL binaries, it doesn't depend on any systemwide Lisp.
<Nilby>
I'm confused. Are you guys talking about the Robot Operating System, or ros the Roswell commmand.
shka_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rogersm has joined #lisp
<rogersm>
Can string/= return 0?
shifty has joined #lisp
<rogersm>
CL-USER> (string/= "a" "b")
<rogersm>
0
<White_Flame>
string/= returns the index of the mismatch, or nil
<White_Flame>
which still maps to a generalized boolean
rgherdt has joined #lisp
<edgar-rft>
When the mismatch-index argument is true, it is an integer representing the first character position at which the two substrings differ, as an offset from the beginning of string1
<edgar-rft>
...ANSI says
<rogersm>
but according to to hyperspec:
<rogersm>
string/=
<rogersm>
string/= is true if the supplied substrings are different; otherwise it is false.
<White_Flame>
and 0 is true
<edgar-rft>
in Common Lisp everything that is ot NIL is true
<rogersm>
but your right
aartaka has joined #lisp
<White_Flame>
yes, my right ;)
<rogersm>
you're
<edgar-rft>
*not* NIL (somebody stole the n)
<rogersm>
what a mess of function
<White_Flame>
if you think about the implementation, it makes a lot of sense
<White_Flame>
just returns the index of the iterator, or nil
<White_Flame>
and is equally useful as a boolean or numeric
<Nilby>
(defalias string/= mismatch)
<White_Flame>
I wonder why they didn't make string= et al return the index as well
<edgar-rft>
agree, Lisp was *much* better when strings still were handled by symbol-names :-)
<White_Flame>
hmm, no, the index would be false in that case, so n/m
<rogersm>
it makes absolutely no sense... but anyway
<Nilby>
If you computed it, why not return it.
<no-defun-allowed>
rogersm: It is usually a good idea to stop making sense when writing Lisp.
<zge>
Can anyone tell me what SBCL's "could not allocate SB-IMPL::TEST" notes mean? I'm getting it for functions that don't even have :test arguments.
retropikzel has joined #lisp
<no-defun-allowed>
A much stupider no-defun-allowed first gave that advice two years ago, but I still stand by it. Though if they act the same, MISMATCH conveys your intent better if you want the mismatch position.
<no-defun-allowed>
Well, string/= will return false for strings of different lengths (without other start and end positions), so they do not act the same.
frgo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
frgo has joined #lisp
retropikzel has joined #lisp
<phoe>
rogersm: huh
<phoe>
it returns true or false
<phoe>
so non-NIL or NIL
<phoe>
except the true variant also conveys some more information
<adlai>
does the second paragraph of 6.1.7.2 require that the prologue is enclosed by the initial bindings?
aartaka has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<phoe>
yes, I think so - the initial values are already there
* adlai
smells undefined behavior
mbomba has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.0]
<adlai>
e.g., a conforming implementation could have the initially clauses enclosed as `(:with #.(gensym) (progn ,@prologue))
<phoe>
I don't understand
<phoe>
the variables are bound to their initial values, the prologue is executed, and then iteration starts
<phoe>
did I get the order wrong?
* adlai
can't find a requirement that the prologue be executed strictly after the bindings
<phoe>
"...which precedes all loop code except for initial settings supplied by constructs with, for, or as."
<phoe>
these constructs are variable binding constructs
<phoe>
so to utilize their initial settings the variables must be bound
<phoe>
otherwise the whole passage is meaningless
<adlai>
removing the global lispmachine lock around everything in CLHS causes quite a bit of undefined behavior, and I'm wondering whether it's sane to rely on the initial bindings always being available to the prologue.
<adlai>
6.1.2.2 acknowledges that initializations could occur in parallel
<phoe>
where?
<phoe>
also, if prologue is run with the variables unbound, what does "initial settings supplied by constructs with, for, or as" from 6.1.7.2 refer to?
<adlai>
in the end of 6.1.2.2's second paragraph, "initializations can be forced to occur in parallel", and again before one of the examples.
<phoe>
only if you use AND with WITH
<phoe>
and again, this is only about the difference between LET- and LET*-style variable binding
<phoe>
it says nothing about whether the prologue is executed in scope of these bindings, or outside it
<adlai>
6.1.7.2's "initial settings" refer to bindings, and maybe declarations
<phoe>
so if these initial settings are there, then there must be variables to bind them to
<adlai>
this is roughly equivalent to order of argument evaluation, and the issues can probably be ignored together.
<phoe>
you cannot declare stuff on variables that don't exist yet.
<shka_>
i thought that if two slots in a single class have the same :initarg it would designate that instances will initialize both of slots with the same value if said initarg was passed
cosimone has joined #lisp
<shka_>
and a simple test confirms this
<shka_>
eh, i must have bug elsewhere
<Bike>
i didn't actually know you could do that. huh.
amplituhedron has joined #lisp
<lotuseater>
so *maybe* for more safety it could check if some :initargs are the same
<Bike>
what could check?
<lotuseater>
the compiler
<lotuseater>
it doesn't even say anything if you give multiple same initargs in the same slot
<Bike>
having initargs initialize more than one slot is intentional. the standard explicitly mentions it in 7.1.1 and i can imagine it being useful.
<lotuseater>
yes i didn't say it's not useful
<Bike>
the possibility of initargs initializing more than one slot is intentional, i mean
<lotuseater>
but i also haven't been aware of that
pankajsg has quit [Quit: Konversation terminated!]
<adlai>
why is that behavior problematic?
pankajsg has joined #lisp
Fare has joined #lisp
<lotuseater>
it isn't
<adlai>
to be precise, why could it ever be problematic? the keywords, and their corresponding arguments, should get evaluated precisely once each before the call to shared-initialize
<Bike>
well, you could do it by mistake, i guess.
<Bike>
have two slots with the same initarg i mean.
aindilis has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
* adlai
can see this being a warning that people would want, and that others would deliberately ignore.
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
aindilis` has joined #lisp
retropikzel has joined #lisp
<lotuseater>
when exactly is shared-initialize called?
<Bike>
it's called by initialize-instance, reinitialize-instance, and also for class redefinitions and change-class
<Bike>
e.g., the standard method on initialize-instance is essentially (defmethod initialize-instance (i &rest in) (apply #'shared-initialize i t in))
<lotuseater>
yeah much possibilities
<Bike>
and (defmethod reinitialize-instance (i &rest in) (apply #'shared-initialize i nil in))
<Bike>
the other two are more complicated.
shifty has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
leo_song_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
mfiano has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
Stanley00 has joined #lisp
ape666 has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Client Quit]
dhil has joined #lisp
retropikzel has joined #lisp
shifty has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
frost-lab has quit [Quit: Connection closed]
shifty has joined #lisp
Stanley00 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
shifty has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
Fare has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
aindilis` has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
aindilis has joined #lisp
retropikzel has quit [Quit: retropikzel]
retropikzel has joined #lisp
kaftejiman_ has joined #lisp
kaftejiman has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
retropikzel has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
frodef has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
pankajsg has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
Fare has joined #lisp
Fare has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ape666 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
ape666 has joined #lisp
rogersm has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
amplituhedron has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
galex-713 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
amplituhedron has joined #lisp
wsinatra has joined #lisp
kir0ul_ has joined #lisp
jw4 has joined #lisp
galex-713 has joined #lisp
amplituhedron has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
EvW has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
bitmapper has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
amplituhedron has joined #lisp
jprajzne1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
jonatack has quit [Quit: jonatack]
mankaev has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
mankaev_ has joined #lisp
dilated_dinosaur has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
jibanes has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
jibanes has joined #lisp
pankajsg has joined #lisp
galex-713 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
thefunc5 has quit [Quit: CoreIRC for Android - www.coreirc.com]
jw4 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
galex-713 has joined #lisp
mathrick has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
mathrick has joined #lisp
toorevitimirp has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
ape666 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
iskander- has joined #lisp
iskander has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<lotuseater>
Does anybody of you still uses &AUX in function arguments? Isn't it outdated or when is it really useful?
<beach>
It is very useful.
<beach>
See my ELS paper on method combinations.
sjl has joined #lisp
aartaka_d has joined #lisp
<lotuseater>
okay I look it up :) also found interesting article of you "What is wrong with Lisp?" (but transformed it for my eyes to PDF with org and pandoc, hope that is OK)
<beach>
Sure.
aartaka has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<lotuseater>
If you want I can upload it for you.
hendursa1 has quit [Quit: hendursa1]
jprajzne1 has joined #lisp
hendursaga has joined #lisp
<beach>
That's OK. But thanks for the offer.
<lotuseater>
okay
aartaka_d has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
austincummings[m has joined #lisp
dilated_dinosaur has joined #lisp
jprajzne1 has left #lisp [#lisp]
jonatack has joined #lisp
pfdietz has joined #lisp
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jonatack has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
jonatack has joined #lisp
rumbler3_ has joined #lisp
<aeth>
lotuseater: &aux is super niche and every time I think I need it, I wind up not using it... but one place where &aux could be useful is rebinding dynamic variables.
orivej has joined #lisp
jibanes has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<pfdietz>
&aux is useful in struct BOA constructors.
<aeth>
(rebinding dynamic variables in an &aux would make it part of the API of the function, as opposed to doing it at a LET in the body)
<pfdietz>
Admittedly, that is niche.
<lotuseater>
BOA and I thought of the snake :D
<pfdietz>
It's a good pun.
jibanes has joined #lisp
<lotuseater>
but i hope it's still true not to mix &OPTIONALs and &KEYs
<pfdietz>
You get compiler-whine when you do that.
rumbler3_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
andreyorst`_ has quit [Quit: andreyorst`_]
zcheng3 has joined #lisp
andreyorst` has joined #lisp
andreyorst` has quit [Client Quit]
theBlackDragon has quit [Quit: Boom.]
Cymew has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<jeosol>
Good morning all!
<beach>
Hello jeosol.
<jeosol>
ok.
bitmapper has joined #lisp
<jeosol>
I wanted to asked if it's possible to have a running SBCL session launch another creating a swank port in the process and the parent session then using slime-eval performing some computations
<jeosol>
so far, I have done this using docker (problematic, but works) and starting the sessions by hand.
<lotuseater>
morning jeosol. here it is 5:35pm :)
<jeosol>
lotuseater: Morning to you. I have been told (in the past) that the universal greeting here is "Good morning" . I initially defaulted to my local time
<beach>
jeosol: Some people use their own local time, and it is interesting to see roughly where people are.
<beach>
lotuseater: But if everyone then answers with their local time, we will very easily get swamped.
<jeosol>
For the above, my use case, I am trying to do remote or distributed evaluations. Assuming of having images corresponding to two systems that accept x as an argument, think e.g., y=2x, and another z = x3+2x (in the real case, the same x value results in total different result).
<jackdaniel>
and that may be tiring, especially in the evening like now :-)
galex-713 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<beach>
jackdaniel: *sigh* :)
<jeosol>
above, I meant "assuming I have images corresponding to each case"
<Bike>
different images so you can't just use fork or threads, huh
<phoe>
jeosol: this sounds like a use case for swank-crew
<jeosol>
Bike: That's what I am still investigating, I haven't gotten it to work yet, I am looking at uiop:launch-program
<jeosol>
There is a lot of manual starting this, starting that, that i'd like to automate.
<phoe>
you could launch a lisp image and pass it commandline arguments that will have it load up swank and open a swank server, then connect using swank-client or swank-crew from the C&C server
<lotuseater>
jeosol: okay good to know. it's funny having people from all around the world, so morning is anytime
hnOsmium0001 has joined #lisp
<jeosol>
phoe: I haven't used swank-crew but did look at it, I could not get a small case to work because I wasn't sure where the workers are supposed to be running. In my case, they are not simple operations
<phoe>
swank-crew does not automate launching other lisp images though; I assume this is up for your OS framework to do
<lotuseater>
and sorry it wasn't meant like that with the time, won't do it anymore :)
<jeosol>
phoe: I am doing the first part of what you describe, and using some bt-thread and uiop:wait-process, but I don't think I am getting it to work yet, it's exiting. But if I take the command string, paste it into a shell it runs fine
<jeosol>
phoe: yes, I am using the swank-client for the evaluations for the cases where I started the repls myself
<jeosol>
Additionally, I can say, I want to start optimizations with one function case, e.g., F(x) = 2*x, then I will fire up the repl for that, do some computations, then when I am done, I can then send some message to close it
<jeosol>
or stop it
<jeosol>
or if there is some library that does something similar or with bits, I'd like to take a look
jonatack has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<adlai>
... you are trying to have the swank client sbcl optimize code for the server?
jonatack has joined #lisp
<jeosol>
phoe: about swank-crew, I meant I have looked at it for managing and distributing the work but not starting the repls
* adlai
supposes that is sane if both are actually identical compilers, on the same machine; beyond that, "now you have two problems"
<jeosol>
adlai: pardon that I use the word optimization loosely where where many might get confused with "code optimization". I am referring to mathematical optimization F(x) given some x, which each F1(x) and F2(x) corresponding to different images
* adlai
returns pitchfork to A. Grothendieck and retreats into the tomato hedges
rumbler3_ has joined #lisp
KREYREEN has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
KREYREEN has joined #lisp
rumbler3_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
urek has joined #lisp
EvW has joined #lisp
wsinatra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
wsinatra has joined #lisp
terpri has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
Josh_2 has joined #lisp
terpri has joined #lisp
kaftejiman_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
urek has quit [Quit: urek]
pankajsg has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
amplituhedron has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<sjl>
(the actual thing I'm trying to do is not quite as simple as this example, but this illustrates the problem)
dilated_dinosaur has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
<Bike>
ahh. yeah, effective slot initargs
<Bike>
the reason it's not getting the initarg is, iirc, that slot definition machinery gathers initargs from the direct slotds and applies inheritance rules, and it doesn't know about :tick so it just ignores it? something like that
<Bike>
let me refresh my memory of the last time i made custom slots...
aartaka has joined #lisp
<Bike>
i don't think there's any way to customize the evaluation like you want. the defclass macro always quotes extended options. I believe.
<Bike>
it would be tricky to extend the protocol, since you'd presumably want to use the direct slotd class to customize the macro behavior, but the class isn't known yet
lxsameer has joined #lisp
<lxsameer>
hey folks, CL has more rules when it comes to quasiquotation, what does ",." resolves ?
<Bike>
«Anywhere ``,@'' may be used, the syntax ``,.'' may be used instead to indicate that it is permissible to operate destructively on the list structure produced by the form following the ``,.'' (in effect, to use nconc instead of append). »
<lxsameer>
thanks
andreyorst has joined #lisp
<Bike>
sjl: you could define your own defclass replacement macro of course. i know that's not convenient, but ensure-class is pretty easy to use
EvW has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
rogersm has joined #lisp
skapata has joined #lisp
zcheng3 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
amb007 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
amb007 has joined #lisp
aaaaaa has joined #lisp
kaftejiman has joined #lisp
amb007 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
amb007 has joined #lisp
<sjl>
Bike: yeah, that's what I figured. just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. thanks.
codewaffle has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
codewaffle has joined #lisp
imode has joined #lisp
amplituhedron has joined #lisp
xrash has joined #lisp
xrash has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
rogersm has quit [Quit: Leaving...]
emys_ has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.9]
emys_ has joined #lisp
emys_ has quit [Client Quit]
dilated_dinosaur has joined #lisp
EvW has joined #lisp
Jesin has quit [Quit: Leaving]
zacts has joined #lisp
liberliver has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
liberliver has joined #lisp
Lycurgus has joined #lisp
zcheng3 has joined #lisp
Jesin has joined #lisp
<mseddon>
Stupid question- anyone know if I can license some of the fonts from Genera? or is symbolics just a giant dead holding company now?
<Lycurgus>
almost certainly not
<mseddon>
I mean while there's minimal chance of being sued, I'd rather play fair.
<Lycurgus>
there's a likely chain of custody from symbolics or whoever
<mseddon>
yeah. and I'd like to give them $50 to license some fonts :)
benjamin-l has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<mseddon>
although it seems very much quite a dead situation now, looks more like a guy in his basement selling boards for people who have to maintain old machines.
<Lycurgus>
fonts tend to be the original ip of the individual artist
<mseddon>
well. that depends on who has them. there are naturally no copyright notices in the bdfs
<Lycurgus>
who will generally be satisfied with mention/credit/advert
<mseddon>
and it's only for some happy reference. But at the same time... gah.
<Lycurgus>
whatever shark ate up whatever ate up symbolics, not so much
<mseddon>
^ yep. that's my fear.
<mseddon>
I suppose a bunch of them I may be able to yoink from the CADR, since MIT actually respond to emails
<mseddon>
plus I think that's all GPL now
EvW has joined #lisp
<mseddon>
meh. it may be easier and better to do it right and commission them from a font designer to be honest. It'd stand up better anyway.
<Lycurgus>
or do it yourself, there's a plethora of font working tools, foundries, etc
<mseddon>
Lycurgus also possible.
<mseddon>
it's kinda easier these days now that we have high dpi screens and you don't need decent 72dpi font hinting
<Lycurgus>
likely to work better since typography in computing has come a ways since the 80s
<mseddon>
yeah the fonts themselves are useless. They look cute and evoke a particular style, but even Cyrillic is not well supported imo
liberliver has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<Lycurgus>
code pages and the like were embryonic then
<Lycurgus>
i found garnet worked fine but it's not usable for anything new because it looks so stone age
<Lycurgus>
so fine for something that already uses it
cosimone has quit [Quit: cosimone]
<mseddon>
hehe, yeah. but for example garnet (which I recall from the Amiga days) was a great retro font.
<Lycurgus>
i meant the lisp UI thing and yeah looks like the first macs
<mseddon>
yeah the idea is to deliberately capture that visually.
<Lycurgus>
when I said "found" i meant within the last month
EvW has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<Lycurgus>
running in sbcl
<mseddon>
:D the lispm fonts I find are terrible for non-lisp programming
andreyorst has quit [Quit: andreyorst]
andreyorst has joined #lisp
benjamin-l has joined #lisp
Lycurgus has quit [Quit: Exeunt]
euandreh has joined #lisp
EvW has joined #lisp
Stanley00 has joined #lisp
Stanley00 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
andreyorst has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
g0d_shatter has joined #lisp
cosimone has joined #lisp
g0d_shatter has quit [Quit: Leaving]
narimiran has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
rumbler3_ has joined #lisp
rumbler3_ has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
saganman has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
wsinatra has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
wsinatra has joined #lisp
dhil has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
orivej has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
cosimone has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
cosimone has joined #lisp
shifty has joined #lisp
tane has joined #lisp
cosimone_ has joined #lisp
cosimone_ has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
g0d_shatter has joined #lisp
cosimone has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
srandon111 has quit [Quit: leaving]
cosimone has joined #lisp
ljavorsk has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
cosimone has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
dhil has joined #lisp
cosimone has joined #lisp
Fare has joined #lisp
Codaraxis_ has joined #lisp
amb007 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
amb007 has joined #lisp
mfiano has joined #lisp
amb007 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
amb007 has joined #lisp
Codaraxis has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
dyelar has joined #lisp
<arichiardi[m]>
Hi there! I was wondering if anybody know whether CL bindings for LUKS functions (libcryptsetup)? No problem if not, just making sure I am not missing any :D
mbomba has joined #lisp
mbomba has quit [Client Quit]
wsinatra has quit [Quit: WeeChat 3.0]
gioyik has joined #lisp
miasuji has joined #lisp
ebrasca has quit [Read error: No route to host]
ebrasca has joined #lisp
leo_song has joined #lisp
rumbler31 has joined #lisp
cl-arthur has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
amplituhedron has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
amplituhedron has joined #lisp
pve has quit [Quit: leaving]
rumbler31 has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
sjl has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
ebrasca has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<Josh_2>
arichiardi[m]: dont think so but you could always make them :P
cl-arthur has joined #lisp
<arichiardi[m]>
yep I have just noticed there are rust bindings, cool thank you!
greisean has joined #lisp
random-nick has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
cosimone has quit [Quit: cosimone]
frgo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
frgo has joined #lisp
tane has quit [Quit: Leaving]
zacts has quit [Quit: leaving]
thmprover has joined #lisp
miasuji has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<lotuseater>
hehe I tried and it word: #1=(loop :for i :in '#1# :when (keywordp i) :collect i)
<lotuseater>
s/word/worked
<mseddon>
lotuseater: livin' on the edge
rumbler3_ has joined #lisp
<thmprover>
Is there some way to check if a CL project name has been taken, or is currently in use? I have a horrible pun I want to use, but I don't want to steal it if someone else already has it.
<no-defun-allowed>
Best thing you can do is search it.
<lotuseater>
thmprover: i would look on quicklisp
<lotuseater>
mseddon: not good?
<mseddon>
lotuseater: It returned a value, good! :)
<thmprover>
lotuseater: good idea, luckily the name is free.
<thmprover>
Time to poach this egg.
<lotuseater>
yes! and writing LOOP words as real keywords is not only good for syntax highlighting but also something like DESTRUCTURING-BIND
<lotuseater>
thmprover: but for catching bigger area in the Venn diagram of names github would also be useful
rumbler3_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
<no-defun-allowed>
There aren't any other software projects called Netfarm, but there is an Italian open source consultancy named Netfarm.
<thmprover>
Oh, that will make my punny name all the more humorous.
<lotuseater>
this old antic greek again: more things as symbols/names