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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<lotuseater>
good morning beach :)
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<lotuseater>
omg now i got it ...
<lotuseater>
beach: You are Robert Strandh, right? o_O
<beach>
Yes.
<beach>
Why?
<beach>
Oh, you mean the translation of my name?
<lotuseater>
just so.
<beach>
In the past, I also used spiaggia, plage, and Ufer.
<lotuseater>
yes i got it now. there is much stuff around CL from you i already enjoyed
<drmeister>
beach: I'm using the call-history for dispatching as clasp boots up - it works pretty well. It's faster than the cache and mutex that I stole from ECL.
<beach>
lotuseater: Great! Glad you like it.
<beach>
drmeister: Excellent!
<lotuseater>
here are some very heavy experts ._.
<drmeister>
I didn't think an alist would be fast enough - but it was. So an alist updated with CAS is faster than a fancy cache with a mutex.
<beach>
Maybe not that surprising. Most call histories are probably short.
<drmeister>
Yeah - most are.
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<sm2n>
dealing with a bunch of hash tables has broken me on LOOP, I shall now ITERATE
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<phoe>
good morning
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<ck_>
Hello phoe. How did the Webassembly presentation go yesterday?
<no-defun-allowed>
Hello phoe.
<phoe>
hey! seems that it went well
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<ck_>
very good then, looking forward to weblisp
<phoe>
not any soon; still lots of work to be done
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<loke[m]>
Hello phoe.
<loke[m]>
When do you usually do the lisp presentations?
<phoe>
loke[m]: 13:00 CET
<loke[m]>
phoe: but what day?
<phoe>
might move it later or earlier though, depending on preferences
<phoe>
loke[m]: no real set date
<phoe>
like, the day varies
<loke[m]>
I see. But if there's no deadline it'll take a very long time to prepare a presentation :-)
<phoe>
well
<phoe>
if we want to keep up with the meeting-every-three-weeks schedule
<phoe>
then I'd like to organize the next one between 14th and 18th Dec
<phoe>
and I'll need the abstract for sending via mail at least a week before the meeting, and the video at least 24h before streaming
<phoe>
is this deadline enough for you?
<loke[m]>
Oh you don't want it live?
<beach>
The live chat is text only.
<beach>
The presentation is pre-recorded.
<phoe>
not really; I'd like it prerecorded and played back, with live chat in the comments
<phoe>
that's the way that the ELS worked this year, and I've copied this way to the online meetings
<phoe>
because I've noticed that it works pretty well and eliminates many possibilities of technical issues
* adlai
shuffles through the deck of notecards labelled "Things to ask #lisp"
* jackdaniel
shuffles through the deck of notecards labelled "You can't do that because" ;)
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<adlai>
the latest pain point with scalpl has been the state of websocket client libraries. Eitaro's library works, although it appears to be the only one.
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<jackdaniel>
hunchensocket worked for me like a charm
<no-defun-allowed>
lonjil and I have both wanted to create another websocket client, I guess with the three of us complaining it should be done.
<adlai>
does that also have a client-side library?
<no-defun-allowed>
jackdaniel: Note "client".
<jackdaniel>
right, nvm me then. I think that I've used fukamachiware for that too
<no-defun-allowed>
For pun value, it could wrap Drakma somehow.
<adlai>
there's also a partial client implementation that 3b published, although I don't think he made any claims about its usability; just, "here's how far I got, maybe someone else will find the leftovers useful"
<no-defun-allowed>
I used to also have a prototype of that. I'll check tomorrow morning if it's still there, but it wouldn't be so useful.
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<adlai>
the actual problem, for which a websocket client is necessary, is synchronization of exchange order books; I'm unaware of any datastructure library that offers structures specifically for storing such data, although perhaps there's a gaping hole in my so-called education.
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* adlai
has been using a regular cl hash table, keyed on prices, which is good enough for sleepy markets; will almost certainly be a bottleneck for the busier markets.
<no-defun-allowed>
But, to be fair, I can't think of any changes I would make to the design of websocket-driver.
<no-defun-allowed>
adlai: My own concurrent-hash-tables could push back the limits somewhat, but I don't know your usecase well enough to say if it would be a bottleneck.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Well, if you want a faster hash table, but perhaps there's another data structure that fits your queries better.
<no-defun-allowed>
And if you need concurrent access. I saw "synchronisation" and got excited - perhaps you don't need it at all.
<adlai>
concurrent access is almost a hard requirement, in the long term, because market participants should be considering the arbitrage opportunities between multiple trading locations; in the short term, I have specifically limited myself to first operating only within one centralized market at a time, so it is not a requirement yet.
* adlai
is terribly ambitious; the hoped time for scalpl to return to ql:quickload levels of usability is a decade, and the expected - probably closer to three.
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<ldb>
hello
<no-defun-allowed>
Hello ldb.
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<ldb>
i see there's a cl-automaton inside Drei
<adlai>
is the operator of irclog.tymoon.eu here?
<ldb>
could that be used for spell checking?
* adlai
does not want to raise unexpected eyebrows in their log's logs
<ldb>
not curretly online
<adlai>
it seems that the nicest way to heat the universe with flailful searches through #lisp's history is by locally combing through a copy of whitequark's db.
* adlai
is avoiding self-repetition, due to repeated failures at this in the past.
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<d4ryus>
adlai: You can ask Shinmera in #shirakumo about irclog.tymoon.eu.
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<flip214>
has someone cl-yaml working in windows? for me the self-tests crash already (with sbcl 2.0.11)
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<phoe>
crash? how?
<phoe>
why would they only crash on windows?
<Gnuxie[m]>
It uses libyaml so it's likely to be delicate
<phoe>
oh, it's a foreign binding
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<Josh_2>
afternoon
<phoe>
hey hi
<flip214>
I'm taking a look at cl-libyaml
<flip214>
same crash
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<flip214>
cl-yaclyaml seems to be made in CL
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<flip214>
great, that one works out of the box
<phoe>
hah
<phoe>
flip214: what are the FFI crashes?
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<flip214>
phoe: when loading a 1200 byte file it says "invalid octet at 420000000" or something to that effect
<phoe>
flip214: in foreign code?
<flip214>
yeah
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<jmercouris>
why is it called labels and not flet*?
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<beach>
For hysterical raisins.
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<phoe>
jmercouris: the original LISP had a thing called LABEL that was basically a named local function
<jmercouris>
I see, and why did it become flet instead of label?
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<phoe>
flet and label have slightly different semantics
<jmercouris>
you can still use label?
<phoe>
labels were able to refer to one another; flet is just let except in the function namespace
<phoe>
well, no, LABEL is not a part of CL
<jmercouris>
so then, they could have changed the meaning
<jmercouris>
oh well, I guess
<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
they could have
<jmercouris>
maybe I will put a macro for flet* that expands to labels
<phoe>
and chose not to, likely for backwards compatibility
<phoe>
also flet* is not necessarily strictly equal to labels
<jmercouris>
or maybe just a reader macro
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<jmercouris>
in my head it is
<jackdaniel>
flet* would be misleading
<phoe>
an earlier label can refer to a latter label
<jackdaniel>
if expands to labels
<phoe>
an earlier let* binding cannot refer to a latter binding
<jmercouris>
yes, I see the difference
<pfdietz>
I would like generic-flet. But that was removed.
<jmercouris>
then maybe I will make a let-labels
<jmercouris>
where every let can refer to every let
<jackdaniel>
pfdietz: generic-let?
<Bike>
what would you use generic-flet for?
<Bike>
jmercouris: usually called "letrec"
<jackdaniel>
s/let/flet/
<pfdietz>
Pattern matching on trees.
<jmercouris>
Bike: then I will make a fletrec
<jmercouris>
which will expand to labels
<jackdaniel>
why can't use use labels?
<jmercouris>
of course I can, the name is just tilting me
<pfdietz>
I want to expand sets of patterns to methods, but I can't do that in a flet-like way.
<jackdaniel>
every person who looks at your code will wonder what is fletrec and why it was introduced
<jmercouris>
maybe you are right
<jackdaniel>
and the explanation "I don't like the standard operator name" isn't a very convincing argument
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<flip214>
grrr, why does cl-yaclyaml now fail on the same file it worked with 5 minutes ago?
<jmercouris>
the cosmic bits have flipped
<Nilby>
I think most these decisions were argued to death in the 10 or so years of the CL committee, balancing for compatibility and aesthetics. I think one can still read the the old mailing list and the committee notes.
<jmercouris>
I am sure they made the best decision
<jmercouris>
just not necessarily the one I like :-D
<jmercouris>
I also dont have all of the information they had when making their decisions
<Nilby>
There was a lot of diverse prior art.
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<Nilby>
cdr is a crazy name, but in some way cddar etc are magicly terse tree traversal.
<jmercouris>
yeah another one I don't agree with, but can accept
<jmercouris>
they are new concepts, and thus need new names
<jmercouris>
I can't think of better names than car and cdr and cons
<jmercouris>
they are short, unique, and easy to chain
<jmercouris>
however, do I agree with cadddr?
<jmercouris>
... that is another story
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<jackdaniel>
a blog post material certainly ,)
<jmercouris>
are you making a comment about planetlisp?
<flip214>
linux binary works with the same contents
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<jackdaniel>
no, I'm just making a joke regarding "impact" of the discussion whether you like caddddr or not (n.b, using such operations is discouraged in norvig's style guide, and in numerous other places)
<jmercouris>
I see, I agree
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<jmercouris>
(loop for element in (list 1 2 3) collect element finally (print "salmon"))
<jmercouris>
now, can I "finally" collect another thing?
<jmercouris>
(loop for element in (list 1 2 3) collect element finally collect "fish"))
<jmercouris>
doesn't seem possible
<jmercouris>
I want the output to be (1 2 3 "fish")
<jmercouris>
I can of course append to the loop
<jmercouris>
(append (loop for element in (list 1 2 3) collect element) (list "salmon"))
<jmercouris>
or push even
<jmercouris>
if I were to bind it
<jmercouris>
however is there a way to accomplish this within the loop?
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<jackdaniel>
superficially via collect ... into .. and having append in the finally clause
<jmercouris>
hm
<jackdaniel>
however it doesn't buy you much because you need to traverse the list (instead of modifying the last cons)
<jackdaniel>
(indirectly via append)
<jmercouris>
right
<jackdaniel>
with the cmu's collect macro you have the collecting decoupled from loop, so you may collect "anywhere", but that's another story
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<jackdaniel>
(there are multiple derivatives and copycats of this macro in quicklisp, i.e in the cl-collectors library - I think that this was its name)
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<jackdaniel>
uiop:while-collecting has a bug, but I don't remember what it was exactly
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<jackdaniel>
either something with scoping or with multiple collections not working as expected, so I'd rather discourage from using it
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<jmercouris>
OK
<jmercouris>
I will stick with append
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<Nilby>
I don't know what optimizations loop does, but isn't it better just to push and nreverse at some point?
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<phoe>
AFAIK it does that
<jackdaniel>
Nilby: you may always store the last cons
<jackdaniel>
and rplacd with (cons new-element nil)
<pfdietz>
The rplacd approach uses a dummy head cons cell, but that can be stack allocated w. dynamic-extent.
<splittist>
What is the good way to look for (quicklisped) lisp libraries post-Quickdocs?
<phoe>
splittist: quickref
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<splittist>
phoe: thanks. How do I use that to look for, e.g., command line processing libraries?
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<Bike>
pfdietz: the thing with generic-flet is that defining and undefining methods later is less relevant, and that's a lot of the appeal of clos. if your set of methods is static, can't you just use typecase?
<phoe>
splittist: I have no idea, actually. how would you do that with quickdocs? AFAIK it only gave you autogenerated documentation
<phoe>
I assume that you could search for: "quickref.common-lisp.net" command line
<phoe>
I get some decent hits that way
<splittist>
phoe: thanks. (I have you in my headphones talking about control flow, too. Strange feeling.)
<phoe>
splittist: now there is two of me
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<Nilby>
splittist: I got results of (apply-argv cl-cli cli-parser net.didierverna.clon.core command-line-arguments configuration.options-source-commandline hu.dwim.util/command-line com.google.flag ufo unix-options unix-opts utility-arguments) from an older quicklisp dist.
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<splittist>
Nilby: thanks.
<Nilby>
You're welcome :) hope that helps
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<etimmons>
splittist: another one is adopt
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<shka_>
hi all
<shka_>
i am looking for fast binary storage format that i can mmap
<shka_>
i just need tables
<shka_>
hmmmm actually there is manadb
<shka_>
now i have reason to try it!
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<spxy[m]>
hello
<phoe>
heyyyy
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<pyc>
What's the difference between #lisp and ##lisp?
<ck_>
the former is about Common Lisp while the latter isn't
<phoe>
#lisp is about mostly-on-topic Common Lisp discussion, #clschool is about learning Common Lisp, #lispcafe is a mostly-off-topic hangout
<phoe>
there's bunch of other more specific channels, too
<phoe>
related to implementations, projects, personal groups, etc..
<aeth>
"Lisp" can mean "Common Lisp" (e.g. the .lisp extension) or it can mean "the Lisp family of languages"
<aeth>
##lisp uses the latter definition
<aeth>
There aren't really a lot of Lisps that aren't something else more than they're Lisp (e.g. Schemes) so it's not particularly useful to talk about Lisps as a whole.
<aeth>
Common Lisp is called "Common" Lisp because it should be able to run most historic Lisp programs (including Emacs Lisp, which is intentionally archaic, even though it came after Common Lisp) with very little, if any, modification.
<aeth>
Most other Lisps represent a radical break in compatibility, with the possible exception of Scheme, which still renames practically everything.
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<aeth>
For perspective, sometimes people come here with Emacs Lisp questions and it takes a while to find out that it's not in fact a question about Common Lisp code.
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<jmercouris>
any way to do some operation like 'push' but where I can actually individually push all the elements?
<jmercouris>
ah, yes alexandria does have it, I didn't know what the name would be
<jmercouris>
thank you Bike
<Bike>
that is, you'd do (appendf '(3 4 2) x)
<Bike>
np
<jmercouris>
Yes
<Bike>
...er, would that work, or would it try to modify the quoted list? maybe that wouldn't work
<jmercouris>
its not a quoted list
<jmercouris>
that's just an example for this discussion
<Bike>
well, i mean, i think if you did (appendf y x) it would modify y, not x
<jmercouris>
I'll find out soon enough
<jmercouris>
:-D
<Bike>
true...
<jmercouris>
first arg is place
<jmercouris>
I will assume it will modify that
<Bike>
yeah, ok.
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<adlai>
jmercouris: I realize your example for this was only an example; however, I hope that you are aware that all these examples modifying quotes structure are undefined behavior.
<jmercouris>
I am aware, yes
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<Bike>
well they're trying to modify x, which is fine
<_death>
but jmercouris's example indicates that he wants a prependf
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<Bike>
that's a good way to put it
<_death>
or a push-all macro taking the place as the second argument
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<_death>
though that may be a bit ambiguous.. should it be (3 4 2 ...) or (2 4 3 ...) so I'd say (preferf operator 'prependf)
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* adlai
wonders how much downstream technical debt depends upon chanl's current behavior; a quick glance through quicklisp metadata shows that it does have a few dependants
* adlai
has not checked the other package managers yet
<adlai>
amusingly enough, not one of the dependencies are libraries that I'd heard of, before checking.
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<jmercouris>
the order is irrelevant to me
<jmercouris>
which is why I said you could do push or append
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<lotuseater>
hi there, i wanna make a read macro with #\⍳ that reads in stuff like "⍳5" and produces (loop :for i :from 1 :to 5 :collect i). up to now i only made read macros with read-delimited-list
<lotuseater>
maybe also my understanding of peek-char is slightly better
<Bike>
for that it sounds like you should just be able to use read.
<Bike>
or parse-integer, i guess
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<lotuseater>
hm sounds good
<sjl>
I'd just use `read`, then you could make ⍳(1+ foo) read as (loop for somegensym from 1 :to (1+ foo) collect somegensym)
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<sjl>
well, I'd probably make it read as `(alexandria:iota ... :start 1)` instead of a loop form, but you get the idea
<lotuseater>
so (set-macro-character #\⍳ #'read) ?
<lotuseater>
sjl: ah cool i didn't realize that in alexandria yet
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<sjl>
No, you'd need to make your own function that calls read to read in the next form, then returns the form you want
<lotuseater>
if I had a time machine that would be one place to visit
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<lotuseater>
and now I also get where the name serapeum comes from
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* adlai
wonders whether anyone suggested to github that they parse dependency information from .asd files
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<adlai>
whereas once their easy excuse not to, the absence of a package manager, is gone, they could now just blame the lack of standardization on any single one.
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<Josh_2>
but why?
<phoe>
what do you mean, lack of standardization?
<phoe>
ASDF is *THE* de facto system manager for Common Lisp
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<phoe>
there's nothing even close to it in terms of popularity and use nowadays, and most of these other utilities parse .asd files anyway.
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<p_l>
well, it's not exactly system manager
<p_l>
it's a system definition slash build system
<phoe>
it's not exactly not a system manager either
<jasom>
As its name might suggest, it defines systems, it doesn't manage them per-se
<p_l>
it used to be a system manager through extensions like asdf-install (fortunately dead)
<phoe>
it handles the part where you declare dependencies and it ensures that they are loaded; that's the context that GitHub might want to care about in this context
<p_l>
true dat
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* adlai
used the word 'package', in 'package manager', with the connotation it has in the linux world, of locating and installing external libraries; as opposed to the parts that are entirely within ANSI CL
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<adlai>
lol, at one point, wasn't asdf-install doing text searches of cliki to locate tarball urls?
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<adlai>
back in the good old days, before symbolics.com expired
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<lotuseater>
adlai: i learned some time ago it was the first .com domain in 1985 :) and the ones after that also companies with relation to LISP (machines)
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<surabax>
lotuseater: The first web site of the US White House was powered by CL-HTTP and Statice running on a Symbolics Lisp machine, iirc
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<surabax>
*The first version of the web site
<lotuseater>
surabax: awesome <3
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<lotuseater>
thx for this historical detail
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<lotuseater>
did anyone of you hacked on a real lisp machine in the past?
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<cl-arthur>
lotuseater: maybe you'll enjoy https://lisper.in/reader-macros, it's the tutorial someone recommended me when I first had a problem addressable by a reader macro.
<cl-arthur>
OTOH that was three hours ago and I had left the irc far scrolled up. whoops :)
<cl-arthur>
I didn't, so I ended up reading the wikipedia entry and some other website too :)
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<lotuseater>
ok good. it came to my mind again because Arthur was one of the Knights from the legend
<adlai>
Arthur was not just one of the knights, he was King of the Britons
<lotuseater>
ah hm so i messed something up
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<lotuseater>
so to have a readmacro for writing lists (aka vectors) like in Haskell i alter the readtable after going into (set-macro-character #\[ ...) so i can have something like [2,5..100] ?
<lotuseater>
i think some foreign stuff needs some kind of backtracking or continuation
<Bike>
er, what are you asking? you could write a list comprehension reader macro, yes
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<Bike>
i'm not sure what backtracking has to do with it
<lotuseater>
yeah and just for understanding to make more advaned readmacros
<Bike>
i guess that's not really a list comprehension
<lotuseater>
no it isn't
<Bike>
anyway, reader macros get a handle to the stream and can read whatever they want and interpret it however they want
<Bike>
so you can do basically whatever you want
<lotuseater>
listcomp would be something like [ x + y | x <- [1..100], y <- [1..100], x+y == 10]
<lotuseater>
yes it is powerful
<no-defun-allowed>
Haskell lists are Lisp proper lists, FWIW
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<lotuseater>
sorry didn't want to annoy with that stuff ._.