<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, you use return (cl-d2: finish) to lop off an action.
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<no-defun-allowed>
lotuseater: Generally, I've heard monads don't really make sense with mutation or without type maths to decide which implementation of >>= makes sense, and so on. But you can't have uncontrolled mutation in concurrent programs, and I only have one action protocol, so I can get away with it.
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<lotuseater>
good
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<no-defun-allowed>
duuqnd: You don't have to dunk on anyone in the game jam to make your point. (But I find pretend small machines boring, unless it's MY pretend small machine, in which case it's very fun...)
<duuqnd>
I was more thinking of making an entry just so there'd be some Common Lisp representation, even if it'd be a crappy little game by me.
<no-defun-allowed>
(Mostly because I have to decide what "bloat" I want to put in it, and I have slowly been looking at compiling to machine code, so that I can try larger experiments with it.)
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: "late 2022" so there's plenty of time for someone to release first.
<no-defun-allowed>
Who cares?
<aeth>
someone might care
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't think someone will make another Kandria, at least.
<duuqnd>
I was working on a first-person shooter at one point, but then I realized that my engine was garbage and I didn't have the time nor energy to fix it, so I gave up. It didn't help that I'm not very good at game development.
<aeth>
duuqnd: Lower your standards. Can you do Quake? Doom?
<no-defun-allowed>
Those are still well above a 128x96 top down tile thing.
<no-defun-allowed>
That's not to say you can't make a good game with that, and a bad game with a Quake clone, but you don't have to do that much to stand out.
<duuqnd>
I thought I could do a wolfenstein clone to start off with as practice, but it was too much work with my garbage engine. I did make a rather half-decent level editor in McCLIM that I'm semi-proud of though, so it wasn't all bad.
<duuqnd>
I think that project taught me more about CLIM than game development
<duuqnd>
Well, if you're sharing a screenshot I guess it's only fair that I share one too. https://i.imgur.com/49JnHB8.png This is what my game looked like a few months before I stopped working on it.
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<lotuseater>
duuqnd: look at how much people are working on cyberpunk :) and it neither runs bugfree (yet)
<aeth>
duuqnd: that's pretty far along
<aeth>
duuqnd: looks like you're just missing lighting, and maybe collision
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<duuqnd>
Collision was easy since the map is grid based. Lighting was a little tricker, but I did get it working. I'm just a bad environmental artist.
<duuqnd>
I think I have some newer screenshots on my laptop
<aeth>
art's somebody else's role
<duuqnd>
Yeah, I was always planning to get someone else to do that. The main problem was always gameplay, though. There wasn't any. For some reason, I just never got around to adding any gameplay.
<aeth>
that's fine
<duuqnd>
Well, it wasn't a total failure since I learned a lot from it.
<aeth>
there's lots of passable free art out there that you can use for prototyping
<aeth>
(it just has the side effect of making your game look like a mobile game for some strange and totally coincidental reason...)
<duuqnd>
Yeah, art was never something I worried about. It was always that I got distracted by things.
<duuqnd>
https://imgur.com/1GePGT4 I got distracted by adding chromatic abberation to the HUD, for example.
<duuqnd>
(ignore the window name, it was a jokey working title for the game)
<aeth>
I can't say that I haven't seen that effect before in low-poly, low-res indie games... but it's definitely out of place.
<aeth>
you should just focus on the minimum mechanics needed to get a "game". Not a real game, just moving around in a maze like the Windows screensaver
<duuqnd>
That's pretty interesting. I knew that MIT was involved in both, but I didn't know about Steve Russell.
<aeth>
He's still alive and he probably has an active email somewhere, so maybe he'd be interested in a Spacewar clone in Common Lisp if it's good.
<duuqnd>
Well, I certainly won't show him my hastily hacked together one.
<aeth>
The only difference between something that's hastily hacked together and something that's good is time.
<aeth>
There are no bad games, only games released too soon.
<duuqnd>
True, but I didn't have a lot of time for this project since it was for the Lisp game jam and I spent too much time on an idea I couldn't implement.
<duuqnd>
So the result became something functioning but janky
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<duuqnd>
I also spent a lot of time on implementing multiplayer only to realize that it was too impractical for anyone to bother with.
<thmprover>
You could have two AI play against each other.
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<duuqnd>
Well, the AI was complete garbage, so it wouldn't be very interesting. In fact, the only thing that made the game even slightly fun was that the position of everything was modulo'd to be kept inside the play area, making it kind of like a bullet hell game if you shot enough. It's hard to explain.
<duuqnd>
Here's a screenshot of what I think is a slightly early version https://i.imgur.com/FqtB7sk.png (I don't know what the spiky thing is) Basically, using a modulo and rendering multiple copies, it looked like there was an infinite amount of space, but things were always kept inside a small square.
<duuqnd>
I used wireframe because I suck at arm
<duuqnd>
art*
<aeth>
that looks much better than your other art
<aeth>
if you can go with a minimalist style that looks good, that's good
<duuqnd>
I think minimalist is the only style I can do at all, so that's what I'll stick to in the future.
<aeth>
If you look at a video of it, the game rotates around and stuff. It looks cool. It's probably almost entirely programmatic
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<duuqnd>
My internet connection decided to die for a second there.
<lotuseater>
welcome back :)
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<thmprover>
Can I have nested packages?
<thmprover>
I'm trying to store some simple physics data, and I thought I could do something like "data:sun:mass", though I guess "sun:mass" is just as good.
<aeth>
nested packages would be nice
<aeth>
but the ASDF semi-enforced convention is to use a /
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<aeth>
like data/sun:mass
<aeth>
the only disadvantage is that you can't use it with FORMAT since it doesn't look like there's a way to escape a / and FORMAT assigns a special meaning to ~/ to call a function. But nobody uses that feature.
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<aeth>
there are at least two ways to then reexport exports from data/sun also from data (but that's a bad name for a top-level package)
<aeth>
one's in UIOP, the other is... defpackageplus or something like that.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I don't have a teletype to edit LISP on :(
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<Nilby>
aeth: I use that feature.
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<lotuseater>
Nilby: could you give an example for ~/ plz? :)
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<Nilby>
I have a print-string which for strings which contain fonts and colors effects.
<Nilby>
And an output stream that can handle them. So something like:(format *terminal* "~&~23/fancy:print-string/" (ß '(:bg-blue (:fg-cyan "---Fizzy--"))))
<Nilby>
And then you have a thing like: (defun print-string (stream obj colon-p at-sign-p &rest args) which does the work.
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<Nilby>
But I'm not sure it's worth the effort actually.
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<lotuseater>
ehm yes but thx anyway
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<Nilby>
abuse of cl:format was a sport, perhaps like a foxhunt
<aeth>
I go the other direction and mostly avoid FORMAT
<Nilby>
That's quite sensible really.
<aeth>
Depends on whatever's clearest, though. I'll use ~A or ~D or whatever rather than using the print function equivalents.
<aeth>
Just as a one line thing, though.
<aeth>
And if it's multiple lines, then I'll prefer something like (format stream "~D ~D ~D~%" ...) (format stream "~D ~D~%" ...)
<Oladon>
lotuseater: I find it amusing that you decided to put the stress in the same place I did.
<lotuseater>
and "~5%" transforms into five TERPRIs?
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<lotuseater>
Oladon: how do you mean exactly? :)
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<Oladon>
If it sounds like a magical incantation, then that tells me you're pronouncing it cadadaDAdr
<edgar-rft>
five terpri points for lotuseater :-)
<lotuseater>
abra cadadar
<Oladon>
Which is also how I chose to pronounce it.
<no-defun-allowed>
I use the-cost-of-nothing:write-si-unit which is a longer form of ~U.
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<lotuseater>
i learned pronounciation of it from SICP
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<Oladon>
Since we're sharing fun things, here's a quote I _really_ enjoyed from phoe's book: "The function invoke-debugger [...] is the equivalent of a turtle falling on its back and wiggling its limbs hopelessly in the air; the program has exhausted all chances of handling an error gracefully and, therefore, has no choice but to handle it disgracefully."
<phantomics>
Hey, I just learned something really weird
<Oladon>
phantomics: How to pronounce cadadadadr?
<phantomics>
SBCL has problems concurrently assigning elements of arrays when the element size is below 7 bits
<no-defun-allowed>
If I may, maybe it wouldn't be so bad to only specialize above (unsigned-byte 8).
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<phantomics>
sbcl 2.0.2
<phantomics>
That's what I'm thinking, have 8 be the min
<lotuseater>
aeth: you're right, if not too many lines are terminated that way
<no-defun-allowed>
Or forgo concurrent/parallel writing of anything smaller than bytes, if you really want the space savings.
<phantomics>
I need the ability to cast to different types for some purposes, like when writing .png files I need arrays of 8-byte ints
<lotuseater>
i have 2.0.8 (not the newest i know)
<lotuseater>
phantomics: how many workers do you have in your lparallel kernel?
<phantomics>
It seems to work find in CCL though
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<no-defun-allowed>
Does Clozure produce dense arrays?
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<phantomics>
lotuseater: I've tried with different numbers and had similar results, usually I'm using 23 workers for my 24 threads - 1 on my main machine
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<lotuseater>
ah okay
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<phantomics>
Reducing the number of threads or the size of the array seems to reduce the missed elements
<phantomics>
But they show up if you iterate enough
<lotuseater>
i could push more workers and see how it does then
<aeth>
phantomics: 24? so 3900X?
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<phantomics>
Yeah
<aeth>
everyone needs a 3900X
<aeth>
then everything will be threaded...
<no-defun-allowed>
CNR here, but I can believe it.
<Nilby>
If I was writing C or assmebly for that, I would copy wordsize words until the last parts. Lisp is supposed to be better, but...
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<phantomics>
Problem with wordsize words is that in some situations I'm catenating, rotating or reshaping arrays
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<phantomics>
The threading gives me an immense speed boost for these ops, 10-15x the single-threaded
<lotuseater>
aeth: my think pad wouldn't like the AMD Ryzen :D
<phantomics>
Next I want to try it on a Threadripper
<Nilby>
one could do things with displaced arrays and row-major-aref, but it would be of course be nicer if the compiler could generate fast, correct code.
<phantomics>
I already do all array ops with row-major-aref
<phantomics>
You have to for good speed
<lotuseater>
Nilby: what would you use instead?
<phantomics>
My old method was to use a function that recursively descended through dimensions and then passed the coordinates of each element as a list plus the content of the element to a function and did transformations on the coordinates
<Nilby>
derp, I just re-read and noticed the row-major-aref
<phantomics>
It was really elegant code to read, but slow and hard to parallelize
<aeth>
lotuseater: there's a Threadripper laptop. get that.
<lotuseater>
aeth: I'M very sure it's out of my current money scope and will be long :D
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<aeth>
I mean it'd probably just be cheaper and a better experience to get a full threadripper PC and a high-end laptop with any battery life at all.
<phantomics>
That's a small form-factor pc, not a laptop
<no-defun-allowed>
I wouldn't mind a small desktop attached to a screen, keyboard and trackpad. Trouble is powering the thing - someone told me they wouldn't mind carrying a SLA battery in a backpack, but that seems unlikely for most people.
<lotuseater>
yes when then I'll buy a good stand PC with an actual GPU
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<phantomics>
What's the application? What are you going to do with the thing you couldn't do with a regular laptop SSHed to a more powerful machine? Some kind of graphics work in the field where you can't take a bigger computer?
<no-defun-allowed>
In my case, audio processing.
<no-defun-allowed>
This laptop goes considerably slower while charging, and I find I need to charge it while doing that.
<phantomics>
You have one?
<no-defun-allowed>
Not the forementioned TR "laptop", but a laptop.
<phantomics>
RIght
<phantomics>
Ever used Lisp for that? I've done a bit of work with cl-portaudio
<no-defun-allowed>
I expect you would have to take a portable reactor with that "laptop".
<no-defun-allowed>
I wrote a synthesizer with Harmony and cl-alsa (for MIDI input), but it had pretty bad latency with Pulseaudio, and I can't seem to configure ALSA.
<lotuseater>
no-defun-allowed: nuclear fission or fusion?
<phantomics>
Tried with Jack?
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<no-defun-allowed>
That is another option, yes.
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<phantomics>
Say, maybe you know something about this
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<phantomics>
I was using cl-portaudio to implement a spectrum analyzer, I would grab frames of audio and then do an FFT to get the spectrum values
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh, I haven't touched any audio library directly.
<phantomics>
However, I would always see a spike at the high end of the chart
<phantomics>
I see
<phantomics>
When I did this with the python portaudio, the high-frequency spike didn't happen
<no-defun-allowed>
Hm.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I'm not entirely sure, but I read that if you have N samples, everything over N/2 is bogus.
<no-defun-allowed>
...over the N/2th bin in your FFT output.
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<Nilby>
maybe lisp math is too accurate
<no-defun-allowed>
So, for a 44.1kHz input, you can't detect any frequencies over 22.05kHz.
<no-defun-allowed>
I think that is in line with the Nyquist-Shannon theorem.
<lotuseater>
no-defun-allowed: damn i was at typing you about just that :D
<lotuseater>
*at typing to ask
<no-defun-allowed>
I tried using FFT to clean up voice samples, and then blend them to make a text-to-speech system.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I can't say I succeeded, but it was very fun, and we got some interesting noises out of it.
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<momozor>
Is there a way so I can automatically use exported symbols from a library that clashes with existing CL symbols? It's quite tedious to tell SLIME to 'take-new' (using SBCL) every time my system got loaded with the imported library (it's CLIM with (:USE :CL :CLIM :CLIM-USER) by the way)
<phantomics>
Yeah, in my case I was only using the n/2 samples and still seeing that spike
<no-defun-allowed>
I think you either use CLIM-USER or CL, but then there's also CLIM-LISP?
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<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, I think it should be (defpackage <name> (:use :clim-lisp :clim))
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<momozor>
no-defun-allowed: Oh! Now I understand why there are more than one from CLIM. I should've investigate that beforehand. Thanks for pointing that out.
<no-defun-allowed>
I would have to check the general case though.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Well, generally you avoid :USE where possible, because if someone changes a package you use, then weird things can happen.
<momozor>
I would prefer to use :IMPORT-FROM and invoking a symbol directly myself, but it's just for the sake of trying the library in the beginning since I'm still not familiar with it just yet.
<momozor>
but again, thanks!
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<beach>
moon-child: They must not have read the book "Modern Operating Systems" by Tanenbaum and Bos, in which they clearly explain that it is impossible to write an operating system in a language that uses garbage collection.
<beach>
The fact that there were already such operating systems in existence when they wrote the book does not seem to have bothered them.
<no-defun-allowed>
Is this in reference to the bare-metal Scheme implementation video?
<beach>
Yeah.
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<beach>
I just took the opportunity to lament the quality of software books; even those written by highly respected people in the field.
<beach>
Highly qualified experts in algorithms and data structures can't even get binary search right.
<beach>
So, to get back on topic, how can we expect books about programming and software development to treat Common Lisp the way it deserves?
<beach>
"One thing you need in an operating system is access to files" [from the video].
<beach>
So I guess Multics never existed either.
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<no-defun-allowed>
I don't know how well they would handle a larger memory space, if their runtime causes stop-the-world pauses that would drop keys at a reasonable typing speed (by the example of an interrupt you can't wait for).
<beach>
I haven't watched all of it yet. Is that the GC they are using?
<no-defun-allowed>
...while working with a memory space some magnitudes smaller?
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<beach>
froggey says, "just make the GC interruptable"
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<lotuseater>
how does one accomplish that?
<moon-child>
sounds like a limitation of gambit scheme
<no-defun-allowed>
That is another solution, yes.
<moon-child>
lotuseater: have a backup arena, run interrupt code from that
<moon-child>
so you just don't touch the main arena while the gc is running
<lotuseater>
hmm ok
<beach>
The project in the video is cute, but I don't think there is anything publishable in there, since most of the stuff has already been done multiple times.
<no-defun-allowed>
At 12:50, they say "you can't tell the user to stop sending key-presses", but you would hopefully have pauses shorter than the time between keypresses. If I planted my face in the keyboard and rolled it around, I might be able to drop some keys, but it's an odd example.
<beach>
I see.
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<no-defun-allowed>
As a rough estimate, someone typing at 150wpm, which is well above average, with about 4 letters per word, would type 10 letters a second, so you could only hold interrupts for 100ms (assuming the time between presses is even).
<beach>
Sounds right.
<beach>
I designed the SICL nursery collector so that it would take only a few milliseconds which is what is required for applications like sound processing.
<lotuseater>
how does the linux kernel handle this? i have no idea
<no-defun-allowed>
Or, provided you can't leave some spare memory for interrupt handlers, would it be hard to have the interrupt handler not cons? It could just vector-push a character into a buffer, which would be very unlikely to overflow, even with a small buffer.
<moon-child>
lotuseater: the linux kernel doesn't have a gc
<beach>
You beat me to it.
<moon-child>
and yes, most kernels have a fixed-size ring buffer they push events to
<no-defun-allowed>
I recall something about how Linux handles it from a video where someone connected a 5Gbps network card to a Raspberry Pi. Hold on...
<lotuseater>
moon-child: i know that. but i meant the many words typing
<no-defun-allowed>
...handles interrupts the kernel can queue for later.
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<moon-child>
eh, making memory managers is hard
<beach>
If it's not hard, it's not worth doing.
<moon-child>
sure, but you always have to pick something to prioritize
<beach>
I guess so.
<no-defun-allowed>
They mention one Lisp operating system, which has an even worse memory manager (well, I guess it usually reduces pause times, but that's the only thing going for it).
<beach>
no-defun-allowed: Towards the end?
<beach>
I haven't heard anything yet.
<no-defun-allowed>
Towards the start of the paper.
<beach>
They mention Mezzano, and something called ChrysaLisp.
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh, at the end of the paper, they suggest writing the interrupt handling code in a restricted (presumably non-consing) Scheme, and to use the x86 compiler in Gambit to eliminate C code from the system.
<beach>
They mention the first idea in the video as well.
<no-defun-allowed>
Yeah, the latter is not a Common Lisp implementation, and I fear I'll break out in hives if I read any more of the implementation code.
<beach>
Marc Feely, by the way, is the one who pissed all over my work on fast generic function dispatch.
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh dear.
<no-defun-allowed>
To be honest, (the part of) today (when I've been watching the channel) #lisp has been ragging on a few people today. I think you aren't in the wrong to bring Feely's record up, but again I'm far too good at putting out a stream of things I don't like, so I'll end it by mentioning that a Lisp implementor after the 80s has decided to use reference counting, stating "I'm not keen on GC".
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<no-defun-allowed>
"Go out with a bang" and all.
* ck_
.oO( Can't we all just get along ? )
<no-defun-allowed>
I have no intentions of getting along with people who are screwing up my field, whatever that may be.
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<zacts>
can you run quicklisp on abcl?
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<easye>
zacts: certainly. You can install it locally via (require :abcl-contrib)(require :quicklisp-abcl)
<zacts>
nice, thanks
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
What's the status of the december quicklisp dist?
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<nij>
I'm not familiar with UIOP unfortunately, so don't know how to fix. The main complaint seems to be "Can't inherit "TIMESTAMP<" from "LOCAL-TIME", it is inherited from "UIOP/UTILITY"".
<phoe>
package name conflict.
<phoe>
what is your DEFPACKAGE?
<phoe>
you cannot use both LOCAL-TIME and UIOP inside it because they have conflicting symbols.
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<Xach>
fiddlerwoaroof: i have not kept them up to date, sorry.
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<Xach>
i have the infrastructure but have not pushed the "update stats and publish" button in a long time.
<Xach>
(it's more than just one button)
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<phoe>
Xach: how can we help?
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<Xach>
phoe: The main pain point is going from an SQL table to a Blogger post. I run a report, cut and paste, reformat, and paste into blogger. It's not terrible to do once, but to do monthly it's an annoying chore.
<Xach>
phoe: I wouldn't mind publishing the raw data as CSV regularly so someone else could do the work.
<Xach>
it's also not so impossible to automate, but i haven't investigated
<phoe>
Xach: please do! Once I have a stable parametrized URL with CSV data auto-published from you, I can even write a Lisp system that auto-formats this stuff and push it to Quicklisp.
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<phoe>
(ql:quickload :quicklisp-stats) or something.
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<Xach>
strewth
<Xach>
ok, i'll look into it
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<phoe>
okay, (ql:quickload :strewth)
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<Xach>
oh lord, i have probably 50k web log files to import.
<Xach>
the journey of fifty thousand log files begins with a single entry
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<phoe>
welp
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<Xach>
ok, in 15 minutes, it processed 1 week out of about 40. phoe, please remind me to look at it again tomorrow.
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<nij>
#'shell-command sends a string to shell.
<nij>
However, some command wants to interact with me..
<nij>
is there any work around in emacs?
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<nij>
OH no it's the wrong place. I got logged into #lisp automatically again. Sorry..
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<nij>
s/.*//
<lotuseater>
hi nij
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<phoe>
Xach: you are not doing this manually though, are you
<phoe>
I shall remind you tomorrow
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<Xach>
phoe: it's a program that fetches all pending logfiles from cloudfront
<Xach>
it has just processed march 23rd. (it started on january 20)
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<phoe>
I see
<phoe>
it does seem slow though
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<Xach>
I ususally run it a few times per day and it only processes a little at a time. Catching up on 11 months wasn't a design priority.
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<phoe>
ooooh
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<_death>
"There is one currently known bug in the who-calls database code. It arises when a function calls itself, either directly or indirectly, through a chain of other functions [...]"
<_death>
oh, screamer..
<_death>
I think it's more severe actually
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