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<_death>
it seems all tests in prtest.lisp pass here
<Josh_2>
hmmm
<Josh_2>
they don't for me
<Josh_2>
I've already made all of the changes you have in that gist but it still struggles to compile, I also had a problem where some function that expected a symbol was getting a list containing a keyword
<Josh_2>
Well it compiles if I manually compile one function before the others
<Josh_2>
but the tests fail
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<Josh_2>
theres name conflicts as well
<_death>
ah, yes.. I loaded it without compiling
<Josh_2>
I converted it into an asdf system etc
<Josh_2>
I can put on github if you want to look?
<_death>
sure.. maybe tomorrow (it's time to sleep now)
<kilimanjaro>
Specifically, the part within the `time` form
<kilimanjaro>
I am just curious -- the C version seems to be ~4x faster, but I don't really have any sense of why
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<kilimanjaro>
(clang with -O3)
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<aeth>
kilimanjaro: Is the C version identical to what you just wrote? Because that currently returns nothing, and so can be optimized to do nothihng, but won't in SBCL.
<aeth>
*to do nothing
<kilimanjaro>
let's suppose then that I am returning the array C
<kilimanjaro>
the C version is doing that
<kilimanjaro>
(rather, it's just given pointers to A,B,C)
<aeth>
Well, you can do this: (deftype matrix () `(simple-array double-float (,+size+ ,+size+))) ; except in CCL, if you do this portably and want it to run in CCL you'll have to wrap the defconstant in an eval-when
<aeth>
Then you can spin off the relevant part (and return c in the outer DOTIMES), e.g. (defun matmul-optimized (a b c) (declare (type matrix a b c) (optimize (speed 3) (debug 0))) (dotimes (i +size+ c) (dotimes (k +size+) (dotimes (j +size+) (incf (aref C i j) (* (aref A i k) (aref B k j)))))))
<aeth>
And then you can look at the asm in the now smaller function. (disassemble #'matmul-optimized)
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<aeth_>
If you insist on having (safety 0) then you'll probably want to see the full asm in SBCL, i.e. (sb-disassem:disassemble-code-component #'matmul-optimized)
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<aeth>
kilimanjaro: as for the C side, there's a website that does compiler asm output for such things because it's not built into C. You can then see how it differs. I forget the name of the site.
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<aeth>
heh, I think DuckDuckGo was filtering out "C" because it was too short so I searched for C++ instead. It's this. https://godbolt.org/
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<aeth>
So if the shortened version that I wrote has subsantially different generated assembly to what godbolt says for C/C++, that's the performance difference and #sbcl might be interested.
<kilimanjaro>
Thanks
<aeth>
And if you (setf *print-case* :downcase) before you diassemble, you get the asm in lower case, which might help with the readability.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<aeth>
and this keyboard apparently needs cleaning because some keys are no longer pressing all of the way and I dropped some random letters in there
<kilimanjaro>
aeth: I think I see part of what is going on
<kilimanjaro>
SBCL is able to use XMM registers but the generated code is doing 64 bit moves
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<kilimanjaro>
clang has somehow unpacked things into 128 bit moves
<kilimanjaro>
so basically, it rewrote the inner loop
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<lisbeths>
The topic of this channel is not lisp, it is CLHS
<lisbeths>
demonstrate that I am incorrect
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<beach>
The topic of this channel is Common Lisp. The language itself, implementations of it, libraries and applications written in it, etc.
<lisbeths>
Thats incorrect. The topic of this channel is the common lisp hyperspec.
<lisbeths>
The logs will prove that my last statement is correct.
<beach>
OK, good luck with that.
<lisbeths>
#lisp is a supercategory of clhs
<lisbeths>
there is more to what is expressed by the english word lisp than what is expressed in CLHS
<lisbeths>
even if you would like to relegate it to just commmon lisp, there is more that is expressed within the context of the phrase "common lisp" than what is expressed in clhs
<lisbeths>
you, beach, have held back the progress of lisp by 20 years
<beach>
Yeah, sorry about that.
<lisbeths>
newcomers hate this channel because this channel should be named #clhs based on the rules here
<lisbeths>
you have probably turned countless people away by rudely expecting them to be able to read a document only accessable by software engineers
<ldb>
so what's good about lisp that people all wants that
<lisbeths>
You should create a channel named #CLHS or something like that, and transfer the rules of this channel to that one
<lisbeths>
you sohuld not censor people woh want to talk about extending commmon lisp beyond the hyperspec
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<lisbeths>
people may discuss #lisp but people may not discuss #programming-lisp
<lisbeths>
that is basically a crime against humanity
<lisbeths>
and its disgusting
<beach>
lisbeths: I think we get the point. Thank you.
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<lisbeths>
Can you express to me in your own words what my point is do demonstrate that you understand what I've said
<lisbeths>
I am calling you, beach, the bane of lisp in the 2000s and 2010s
<lisbeths>
a person who has held the progress of lisp advocacy back
<lisbeths>
The only reason I dare say this is I am not afraid of being banned anymore
<lisbeths>
honestly you have done bad
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<lisbeths>
you have done wrong to lisp programmers, but you have done it "perfectly", without error
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<lisbeths>
I half believe you are just an artificial intelligence behind that screen. A perfect machine made by the military or something.
<lisbeths>
Whenever I come here you are always awake. An organic can't do that.
<lisbeths>
You respond intantly. You have infinite free time. The logs might show this.
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<ldb>
i'm just a bot cant pass turing test, sad
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<aeth>
the reason there isn't a new spec is because we don't have a budget for one
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<lisbeths>
This has nothing to do with making a new spec. The spec is sufficient.
<beach>
aeth: Please don't encourage this.
<lisbeths>
You are a machine.
<lisbeths>
I do not think you are human I think you are a program.
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<aeth>
beach: OK, I won't try to argue or address the claims.
<lisbeths>
I predict he has little rebuttle.
<lisbeths>
My claims are valid and probably true.
<aeth>
the best thing to do is probably to change the subject to be on topic again
<lisbeths>
I shall not.
<lisbeths>
The topic of this channel is #clhs
<lisbeths>
I will protest htat you should leave to #clhs and do not come back or I will petition in #freenode to have you removed.
<lisbeths>
You do not allow discussion.
* beach
makes use of /ignore
<aeth>
It's Friday in most of the world. Has anyone started/continued any interesting projects this week?
<lisbeths>
When you censor your reality your reality censors you.
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<jasom_>
4 hours ago people were discussing how to get sbcl to generate more optimal machine code, all things clearly mentioned in the clhs
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<ldb>
aeth:not necessarily lisp related, but I heard someone made progress define formal semantics for python
<ldb>
using machine learning
<lisbeths>
If I shall not be banned then I declare a mutiny and the discussion topic is no longer #clhs but #common-lisp
<lisbeths>
and I shall discuss #common-lisp as I pleaes and if you do not like it then ban me.
* ldb
shall partake
<lisbeths>
It is clear to me that #common-lisp is the most superior programming language on the earth, because it is a supercategory of ada because it has syntactic macros.
<lisbeths>
In the 1980s the department of defence made note of ada and common lisp as very nice programming languages which were suitable for its needs.
<lisbeths>
Common lisp is the current best and fastest programming language for a quantum computer, which is the fastest computer on the public record.
<aeth>
ldb: Do you think that would work with CL? I think there's a Well-Specified Common Lisp project. It could be a good starting point.
<lisbeths>
There is more than one project pertaining to common lisp.
<lisbeths>
For example, common lisp emacs is a project pertaining to common lisp.
<lisbeths>
There are many libraries for common lisp which aim to take an implementation of common lisp and apply it to make gtk applications.
<lisbeths>
it is a false statmenet to say that there is *only* one common lisp project, or that there could only be one
<ldb>
aeth: be precisely it is small step operational semantics, so I'd say maybe a particular implementation should be picked
<aeth>
ldb: CL-the-actual-language is just the intersection of how all of the major implementations behave, unless this behavior contradicts the spec
<aeth>
it would be interesting to see some de facto standards
<aeth>
CCL tends to break a lot of assumptions, though.
<ldb>
clarification: I've not read it thoroughly, just heard some comments from others
<lisbeths>
It seems to me that common lisp is the most superior programming language on the planet.
<lisbeths>
It seems to me that if my previous claim is true that it makes sence for the common lisp community to better advocate for lisp.
<lisbeths>
If it were in fact the most superior or best current available language then advocating for it would help humanity.
<lisbeths>
If it were not the best or most superior then advocating for it would reveal that it is not the best or most superior.
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<lisbeths>
It seems to me that if my belief that common-lisp is the most superior langauge is true, then if the industry used common-lisp as a whole then they would not be able to then kick the habit of it, because each time they did so they would benefit negatively.
<lisbeths>
Thus, I predict that if the industry at large were comitted to lisp it would be so comitted indefinitely.
<lisbeths>
Therefore, I consider a good way to advocate for common-lisp should be to convince the industry to use it at large.
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<lisbeths>
It seems to me that a good way to convince the industry to try using common lisp at large is a giant marketing campaign.
<lisbeths>
It seems to me that marketing can be done without any funding.
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<lisbeths>
It seems to way that one of the best way to market for free is with memes.
<lisbeths>
Facebook has a bot that generates memes.
<lisbeths>
We can have a bot written in portable common lisp which accepts data as input, expects that data to be an image macro, and which produces memes.
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<lisbeths>
this bot can be rewarded or punished based on how good the user thinks it's memes are
<lisbeths>
This bot can also be reward or punshed based on the number of google searches for lisp and common lisp
* ldb
uses ignore
<lisbeths>
in addition to bot created memes, humans can create and share memes
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<lisbeths>
common-lisp programmers can additionally make an effort to promote lisp verbally and on thier online blogging platforms
<lisbeths>
Since common-lisp is a prefix language, I declare january to be lisp history month.
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<lisbeths>
The first day of january is lisp week and the first day of that week, whenever january first is, is lisp day.
<lisbeths>
And the first hour is lisp hour and the first minute is lisp minute and the first second is lisp second and so on and so forth.
<lisbeths>
Lisp history will be for: enjoying common-lisp and lisp history, shaing lisp songs, sharing lisp image macros, lisp poems, and of course, writing and sharing and peer reviewing lisp code.
<lisbeths>
During lisp month it is traditional to read other peoples lisp code and rate it on github and comment on it.
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<lisbeths>
Another ritual during lisp month is to completely re-read Practical Common Lisp or Gentle introduction to Symbolic computation (which is a beginner's lisp book)
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<aeth>
to get things back on topic again, for anyone who hadn't ignored lisbeths, I'll repeat what I said earlier.
<aeth>
It's Friday in most of the world. Has anyone started/continued any interesting projects this week?
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<beach>
Sure...
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<beach>
I collaborated with jackdaniel on Clostrum, which is an extraction of SICL first-class global environments to a separate repository.
<aeth>
portable to different implementations?
<beach>
And I am working on an "AST evaluator" that will be the basis of a general-purpose cross compiler.
<beach>
Yes, implementation independent.
<aeth>
interesting
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<beach>
And jackdaniel will create a bunch of macros that are adapted to use Clostrum for ECL.
<aeth>
Will we see it in all of the major implementations, like with package-local-nicknames last year, or are there significant barriers to implementing it?
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<beach>
Then, Clostrum plus those macros, plus Eclector, Cleavir, Trucler, can be used to cross compile ECL code.
<beach>
The main barrier is that macros with compile-time side effects, like DEFUN, DEFGENERIC, DEFVAR, etc. must be adapted to use Clostrum.
<beach>
On the other hand, while I said it can be used as a cross compiler, nothing prevents its use as a native compiler.
<aeth>
ah
<beach>
And then, it would be normal for an implementation to replace its existing macros with Clostrum versions.
<beach>
I myself am doing the same work as jackdaniel, but for SICL, since SICL did not use Clostrum in the past.
<beach>
Is that interesting enough for you?
<beach>
:)
<aeth>
yes
<aeth>
is there a writeup anywhere?
<beach>
There is a Clostrum specification. But nothing for the AST evaluator (yet).
<beach>
And the interesting part about the AST evaluator (if it works, which seems to be the case) is that it translates Cleavir ASTs to host Common Lisp code in a way that the resulting code accesses the Clostrum environment.
<beach>
That way, the host global environment is not involved, but the code can still be compiled by the host compiler, so execution should be fast in most host Common Lisp implementations.
<aeth>
beach: ah, that's why I couldn't find it, thanks
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<ldb>
beach: what is the interface of the AST translator?
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<beach>
ldb: A single generic function TRANSLATE-AST with a method for each type of AST class.
<ldb>
i see
<aeth>
beach: so if SBCL were to adapt to support it, then it would compile code as fast as "normal" SBCL?
<beach>
ldb: You can look in the SICL repository in Code/AST-evaluator/...
<beach>
aeth: A bit slower because it needs to go though generic functions to access the global environment.
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<aeth>
beach: ah, so the dynamic variables would be a bit slower, but the lexical ones (and functions) wouldn't?
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<beach>
Right.
<beach>
Like FDEFINITION and SYMBOL-VALUE will be a bit slower.
<aeth>
sounds like a reasonable sacrifice to me... the only place where there are tons of dynamic variables is the IO streams
<aeth>
at least, afaik.
<aeth>
(dynamic as in dynamically scope... technically "special variables" in CLHS terminology iirc, in case anyone was confused)
<beach>
Maybe so, yes. But the main interesting aspect of this thing is that it could be used for bootstrapping a Common Lisp implementation like ECL.
<beach>
You could potentially compile system code on the cross compiler, say to C, and then build the system that way.
<beach>
Now jackdaniel has told me that he doesn't want that. But it would be a possibility.
<aeth>
beach: Could it be used to provide a global lexical environment for languages that compile to CL that have lexical globals? (Even though CL itself doesn't.)
<beach>
Well, every aspect of every ingredient (Clostrum, Cleavir, Trucler, Eclector, AST evaluator) can be customized, so there is great flexibility for these things.
<beach>
Client code can define new AST classes, and method to handle them.
<beach>
So I don't see any limitations in this respect.
<ldb>
the only limitation is having a CL compiler in prior :）
<beach>
But we do have several of those.
<beach>
Good ones too.
<aeth>
hmm, so if this handles the environment, would it also handle DECLARE?
<beach>
Yes, declarations are part of the environment.
<beach>
What the compiler does with them can be customized.
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<aeth>
hmm, so if this was standard "middleware" of sorts, we could "fix" the underspecified nature of DECLARE, at least to some extent
<aeth>
At the very least, there could be more control. e.g. maybe the user could choose to ignore the (safety 0) ignore of type checking in e.g. SBCL
<aeth>
while on the other hand, implementations that just ignore DECLARE altogether could have this middle layer insert type checks
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<aeth>
and in particular OPTIMIZE is allowed to have extra optimize qualities, so this could insert new ones, perhaps even programmatically by a library!
<beach>
Absolutely.
<aeth>
One thing that's currently lacking is the ability to mandate tail recursion in a DECLARE OPTIMIZE when required for the correctness of the function even when normally disabled e.g. (debug 3)
<aeth>
That small change would allow so many Schemier styles.
<loke>
aeth: But you can't ignore DECLARE.
<ldb>
recently I read the documents of CamlP5 (formally known as CamlP4) and hopes to have such kinds of interface in CL, rather that the ad-hoc treatment of reader-macro
<loke>
(that in itself is a problem with the spec, IMHO)
<loke>
By the way, is SPECIAL the only declaration that can't be ignored?
<beach>
NOTINLINE as well.
<beach>
Well, I guess it could be ignored by an implementation that never inlines.
<loke>
Right.
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<aeth>
s/ignore DECLARE altogether/ignore DECLARE altogether with the exception of SPECIAL/
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<beach>
Now, all this stuff requires a lot of work. It would be good if we could get some help with projects using this suite of libraries (Eclector, Cleavir, CST, Trucler, Clostrum, AST evaluator), at least once it is a bit more mature.
<beach>
We could also use help improving documentation and test suites for those libraries.
<aeth>
I, for one, would be willing to sacrifice a bit of special variable performance in order to "fix" (more like harmonize) the semantics of DECLARE. The only thing that would be a bigger deal afaik would be getting the implementations to agree on the names of conditions returned by certain errors (especially in destructuring-bind) so portable code could handle these.
<aeth>
Those are probably the two main places where implementation differences show up a lot.
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<aeth>
That and maybe Unicode, but that's a much larger mess.
<loke>
aeth: I think the world has pretty much settled on CHARACTER being a Unicode codepoint at this time. Only CLISP is the odd one out, but with it not having had an update in 10 years, I think we can ignore that one.
<loke>
That said, something analogous to SB-UNICODE should be standardised at least in a library. CL-UNICODE is kinda crap.
<aeth>
loke: yeah, sb-unicode needs to be turned into a portable thing that's exposed from implementations through a portable library. Perhaps also including string-to-octets and octet-to-strings (in sb-ext, but also in babel, but really it should be built in, at least for utf8)
<loke>
I think SB-UNICODE is mostly portable CL anyway. It was integrated in SBCL thanks to a Google of code things.
<loke>
I mean google summer of code.
<aeth>
interesting
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<beach>
loke: In what way is CL-UNICODE "crap"? I am not disputing it. But I would like to know. Since I know very little about the subject, I ignorantly decided to use it in SICL, but it sounds like I should use something else instead. If so, what would that be?
<aeth>
beach: e.g. in sb-unicode, to see if something is in a unicode general category I do (eql (sb-unicode:general-category character) category)
<loke>
beach: It's not maintained, for one. So it doespn't support newer Unicode versions (the readme says it's from january 2018)
<aeth>
beach: and in cl-unicode I think the closest equivalent is (eql (nth-value 1 (cl-unicode:general-category character)) (intern (symbol-name category) :cl-unicode-names))
<loke>
Also, it lacks a bunch of things, such as implementation of the the BIDI algorithm, and the word break stuff.
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<aeth>
(although I might've just missed an easier way)
<beach>
I think I understand.
<beach>
So there is no alternative out there, other than implementation-specific stuff?
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<loke>
That's not to say that SB-UNICODE is perfect. For example, SB-UNICODE:GRAPHEMES returns a list of the graphemes. It would be better to have some kind of iterator, or at least return a vector since it causes a lot of consing when working large strings.
<beach>
I see, yes.
<beach>
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds like an excellent candidate for an implementation-independent library.
<loke>
In particular, when using it to do word-wrapping, you usually only want all the graphiemes leading up to the first newline, while the SB-UNICODE implementation will create a list out of all of them before you have a chance to search for a newline.
<loke>
Yeah.
<loke>
I mean, CL-UNICODE is probably a good starting point.
<loke>
Or, the SB-UNCIODE would _also_ be a good starting point :-)
<beach>
Got it.
<ldb>
it could be done with additional interface to string
<aeth>
loke: oh, I see one of the core problems with sb-unicode:graphemes. It doesn't have a start/end, like most sequence/string-processing functions. If it did, you could (position #\Newline string) to get what you wanted.
<aeth>
Perhaps the author assumed you'd SUBSEQ, but that's just now how CL idiomatically does such things
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<beach>
So how big would such an implementation-independent project be?
<beach>
In terms of effort, I mean.
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<loke>
For word-wrapping you need a different algorithm, which SB-UNICODE implements in SB-UNICODE:LINES. This is also something missing from CL-UNICODE.
<ldb>
also a string pattern match library could be attractive to users
<beach>
loke: It's too bad you have a day job. :)
<loke>
But... To dig even deeper. SB-UNICODE:LINES is, again, limited to fixed-width grapheme clusters. For variable width, youy need to be able to provide a custom line width computation which I don't believe is implemented.
<loke>
beach: It's not overly complicated I think.
<aeth>
loke: Personally I'd start with sb-unicode, but I'm not sure which would be better: a portable library or porting sb-unicode to all of the implementations, to then expose in a library. I guess it depends on how sb-unicode works and how large its database is.
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<loke>
aeth: I don't think SB-UNICODE has much paltform-specific stuff at all. I think it's mostly the assumptions of the behaviour of the CHARACTER datatype.
<beach>
loke: Good. I'll thing about ways that this could be done. Not by me, but by someone else.
<loke>
But if your CL implementation doesn't impleemnt CHARACTER as a single Unicode codepoint, a lot of CL libraries is going to fail on you anyway.
<loke>
So I agree, SB-UNICODE is probably th ebest starting point.
<loke>
Also, SBCL has a very lax license, yes?
* beach
needs to vanish for around 2 hours or so, and will read the logs upon returning.
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<aeth>
loke: public domain
<loke>
Isn't is as close to public domain as possible?
<aeth>
SBCL is essentially the universal donor to any other implementation, assuming that it's portable enough
<ldb>
with certain components having export restriction
<ldb>
the PCL part from XEROX
<loke>
Perhaps a good experiment would be to try to get SB-UNICODE to work on Clasp?
<loke>
I need ot have a late lunch. Back later.
<ldb>
see ya
<aeth>
fwiw, I've very recently started doing #+sb-unicode instead of #+sbcl for unicode stuff (with an often-subpar fallback, of course)
<aeth>
code written in this way (instead of #+sbcl) should essentially have all of the sb-unicode extras "for free" for a portable sb-unicode
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<loke>
aeth: Except that I'm not sure it would be called SB-UNICODE, would it?
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<dim>
ah nice it looks like I have managed to create an infinite loop in my esrap grammar for Oracle PL/SQL (including SQL and some of its crazyness)
<dim>
removed a large block of rules and now it's just very slow
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<dim>
mmm, someone good with esrap? how do I express I may have a column-alias that can't be the reserved word "from"? (? column-alias) and then (defrule column-alias (... namestring (not kw-from)) and I don't know how to express that
<phoe>
isn't the literal "from" going to suffice?
<scymtym>
(and (esrap:! kw-from) column-alias)
<phoe>
also, what's the case sensitivity in your use case?
<scymtym>
or more completely (defrule column-alias (and (esrap:! kw-from) proper-column-alias) (:function second))
<dim>
scymtym: yeah that works thanks, seems I missed the esrap ! facility, thanks!
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<thetabit>
Hello all, quick question (maybe not, ha). How do I undefine a function name that is loaded up in a lisp instance. In otherwords, I would like to completely wipe out a reference to a function in the image instead of closing emacs and slime down
<phoe>
fmakunbound
<Inline>
what about (setf (symbol-function ?
<beach>
That won't undefine it.
<Inline>
oh
<thetabit>
hm, fmakunbound worked
<thetabit>
Thanks!
<beach>
And it doesn't work for functions named (setf <mumble>)
<Inline>
ok
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<phoe>
wait a second then
<phoe>
how can one unbind a SETF function then?
<phoe>
oh, via fmakunbound too
<beach>
I was referring to (setf (symbol-function...)
<phoe>
oh! yes, I see
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<beach>
SYMBOL-FUNCTION is basically obsolete.
<phoe>
also, (setf (symbol-function 'foo) nil) doesn't work
<beach>
Indeed.
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<phoe>
neither does SETF FDEFNIITION
<beach>
Right again.
<shka_>
there is also function inside slime for that
<thetabit>
that's good to know! lol I have been using on lisp for a lot of my studies, and symbol-function is used throughout the book
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<phoe>
it will work, just, not everywhere
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<phoe>
SETF functions are its sore spot
<beach>
It is best to always use FDEFINITION.
<beach>
Also the name SYMBOL-FUNCTION gives the impression that there is actually a function slot in the symbol.
<Josh_2>
afternoon
<beach>
Hello Josh_2.
<shka_>
slime-undefine-function to be precise
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<Josh_2>
_death: hows your fork of Parmenides going?
<phoe>
beach: the same way PACKAGE-NAME gives the impression that there is actually a name slot in the package
<beach>
phoe: Indeed.
<phoe>
the storage of both are implementation details.
<beach>
Yep.
* beach
vanishes to have dinner.
<phoe>
I read PACKAGE-NAME as a mapping from a package object to a string of some sort, not as some sort of "this has a slot"
<phoe>
bon appetit
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<Bike>
symbol-function is bad because it implies the function is a property of the symbol and not e.g. an environment
<Bike>
but mostly because fdefinition is beter.
<shka_>
heh, Bike hangs around beach a lot :P
<_death>
Josh_2: I submitted a pull request to your repo.. we can play programmer ping-pong improving it
<_death>
Josh_2: so after you improve it a little, send a pull request back
<phoe>
Bike: what name would be better? FIND-FUNCTION?
<_death>
Josh_2: the point is to have fun, so no pressure
<Bike>
"fdefinition"
<phoe>
I mean, we have FDEFINITION but FIND-CLASS and they have somewhat distinct semantics when unbinding stuff
<phoe>
I guess it's time to change the standardâ„¢
<Josh_2>
okay cool!
<Josh_2>
i'll probs do a little later tonight
<shka_>
phoe: we can push this into the limbo of "we are not talking about that part of the standard" where it can hang out with symbol-plists and progv
<phoe>
hey uh wait progv is actually pretty cool
<Bike>
two hardest things in computer science, etc
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<phoe>
progv is the only real way you can bind arbitrary dynavars at runtime without using the compiler or evaluator
<phoe>
which *sometimes* is useful
<shka_>
yes, it is
<phoe>
(with a stress on "sometimes")
<shka_>
almost never
<phoe>
correct
* White_Flame
has used symbol-plists as well
<phoe>
but the possibility is there
<_death>
Josh_2: cool.. also feel free to discuss things in issues/todo file/pull request comments.. I guess irc too, though that has less value for archival purposes (and we may be busy at times)
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<mseddon>
I wonder, is there a nice way in CL and emacs to do something equivalent to elisp's (declare (indent indent-spec))?