<|jonathan|>
In my last visit, i was provided a link of a good book, i just want to practice that to learn Common Lisp
<|jonathan|>
on Windows
<phoe>
minion: tell |jonathan| about pcl
<minion>
|jonathan|: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<|jonathan|>
phoe: Portacle only I was suggested in my visit here but i don't know if you can remember, Portacle was working properly in windows. You even suggested me to visit its official IRC Channel and even the Developer also couldn't help me with it
<|jonathan|>
many guys helped me solve the issue and i could just trace it back to some unsolved 'issue' on github
<|jonathan|>
*many guys here helped me
<phoe>
oh, I see
<|jonathan|>
I guess I need to install Unix/Linux in Virtual Machine for that.
<|jonathan|>
again i want to repeat that my goal is to learn some language flexible enough to help me solve complex Engineering Problems.
<|jonathan|>
Data Science
<phoe>
I don't know what else to suggest, then; the closest you can get to Portacle is manually setting up your emacs+lisp installation, meaning installing emacs+slime+sbcl+quicklisp+git
<|jonathan|>
I have seen few videos which mention Lisp as Ideal Language for AI and like things
<phoe>
you can use a prebuilt emacs distribution such as Spacemacs - that takes care of emacs+slime
<|jonathan|>
oh, noted.
<|jonathan|>
I guess running Portacle in some GNU Linux in Virtual Machine can solve all problems.
<|jonathan|>
It will get me straight to the learning
<|jonathan|>
am checking spacemacs
<phoe>
I personally use and enjoy spacemacs with its common-lisp layer that includes slime
<phoe>
(and I personally use Linux on all on my machines)
<splittist>
Gnu has emacs binaries for Windows. There are git binaries. There are sbcl binaries. Installing quicklisp is super simple, and using quicklisp slime helper gets you slime. A sometimes tricky thing is that emacs and sbcl disagree about what the user home directory is.
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<|jonathan|>
thanks splittist. I guess one single Portacle seems fine for me. Somehow I feel the things arn't going to work well in windows.
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<splittist>
They've worked fine for me over the years. (:
<|jonathan|>
okay fine. which Windows are you using?
<splittist>
10 currently
<|jonathan|>
Am on Win 7, Home 64.
<|jonathan|>
Just curious, why aren't you using Portable? it budles all in one.
<splittist>
I've used that in the past. (Pre git, though, from memory.)
<|jonathan|>
okay I will give it a try. Thanks.
<|jonathan|>
thanks phoe for your precious time.
<phoe>
no problem, good luck and let us know in case of any issues and/or successes
<splittist>
I'm old enough to have had sufficient bad experiences with all-in-one solutions that I tend to want to do things my way. Or perhaps it's just ignorance and stubbornness (:
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<|jonathan|>
I guess we all learn when we try to do things from scratch.
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<Xach>
many users here have used CL since many years before portacle existed, also
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<phoe>
and Xach is not talking about lispbox and lispstick either
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<jackdaniel>
the only editor I know about is invoked with (ed)
<jackdaniel>
(that's a lie, but it is an appealing lie, isn't it?)
<phoe>
it is
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<Xach>
i hook ed everywhere i can
<_death>
do you have it working with a function name (or other symbol meanings?) as argument?
<Xach>
no, just pathname designators
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<_death>
shouldn't be hard to swank-call slime-edit-definition ;)
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<Xach>
that's the route
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<phoe>
I'm glad that CL:LIST is a class even though it could have been a type
<phoe>
for a moment I was scared that I'd need to specialize on NULL and CONS separately before I remembered the above
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<phoe>
Is there a CL system that implements classes that have value semantics, just like functional data types? I'd like something with meaningful means of comparing and non-destructive editing
<phoe>
I'm asking because I have just noticed that I am slowly inventing such a thing, and I'd like to avoid reinv---
<bitmapper>
it was the predecessor to coalton iirc?
* phoe
inspects
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<phoe>
I am about halfway satisfied
<Bike>
classes with value semantics?
<phoe>
yes, something like that
<bitmapper>
*actual* algebraic data types, which that library sadly doesn't provide
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* phoe
rethinks his desin
<phoe>
design
<bitmapper>
everything is just algebraic data types and pattern matching :v
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<phoe>
I am having a situation in which a player has a set of tiles to play, and each of these tiles belongs to that player
<phoe>
in a normal, mutable OO way I'd solve this with a pair of references
<phoe>
but I'm wondering how I am supposed to work with this in a functional manner
<phoe>
suddenly I want *some* things to have value semantics but I want *other* things to have identity
<phoe>
and I'm wondering what kind of solution would be a good fit
<bitmapper>
phoe: could you expand on a bit on the semantics of the tiles
<phoe>
a tile always belongs to a given player
<bitmapper>
yeah
<phoe>
let's imagine that a player has 100 tiles of 10 kinds, and each of these tiles is marked as belonging to that player
<phoe>
two tiles are value-equivalent if they belong to the same player and they have the same kind.
<bitmapper>
ah
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<phoe>
the kind is the part that has value semantics but the player is the part where, I guess, identity is important
<phoe>
unless I'm still blind to some stuff and my design can be done better
<phoe>
there's a natural circularity in here that I don't know how to resolve
<bitmapper>
in like haskell i'd do `data Tile a = Tile1 a | Tile2 a | Tile3 a | ... deriving (Eq, Show)`
<bitmapper>
where Tile1, Tile2, and Tile3 are the different kinds of tiles
<phoe>
other than making some sort of gensyms and equipping each player with a gensym and each tile with a gensym
<phoe>
and then the tile belongs to that player if they have the same... yeah, I guess that would work and I wouldn't need to dive into object semantics
<bitmapper>
types are just unique identifiers that we enforce based on their associated constraints anyway
<bitmapper>
at least in most systems
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<stylewarning>
You probably don’t want (tile1 tile) unless there’s some leaf
<Josh_2>
evening
<bitmapper>
ahh
<bitmapper>
sorry
<bitmapper>
i meant (tile1 person)
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<alejandrozf>
hi! how are you? Do you know some CL library to use GAN (Generative adaptative networks) ?
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<alejandrozf>
quit
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<markasoftware>
When would there be multiple Store Variables in a setf expansion?
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<_death>
try (get-setf-expansion '(values a b))
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<drmeister>
Hey - does anyone here do C++ programming, specifically C++17 template programming with an understanding of "fold expressions" in their day job? If so - can you ping me?
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<drmeister>
I want to revamp some of the Clasp C++ interop and I've upgraded to C++17 and I think I can simplify the code considerably with some fancy "modern" C++ template programming. I'd like to bounce some ideas off of someone who knows more about it than I do.
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* drmeister
is fully aware that the Venn diagram of people on #lisp and those who have the skills described above has a vanishingly small intersection.
<ecraven>
drmeister: thanks for the pointer, those look interesting (though `int sum(&&... Args)' looks rather strange)
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<drmeister>
All of C++ looks strange. These people need more s-expressions in their lives.
<_death>
in the recent decade my C++ became more like C and less like "modern C++", although I like that there's <thread> and such.. so if I use templates these days, it's only for simple things
<ecraven>
drmeister: well, up until ~ C++14 things seemed ok.. now, stuff got weird fast ;)
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<ecraven>
actually, plain C++ is very much ok, but the stuff they do with templates should just be its own language :P
<drmeister>
Ok - thanks.
<ecraven>
good luck ;)
<drmeister>
I'm trying to replace a lot of generated code that looks like this...
<drmeister>
With a single template class that uses tuples and fold expressions.
<ecraven>
sorry, that is quite above my level of confidence in templates :-/
<jasom>
IF this is for CLASP I would say it's on-topic here; I'll take a look. I was just learning more about C++17 a couple years ago when I got pulled onto a C only project
<drmeister>
This is for clasp.
<drmeister>
I want to add multiple entry points ala Movitz. But if I keep going with generated template code it's going to go bananas. C++17 might offer a way out - but I'm not sure yet.
<drmeister>
I'm gearing up to add 1. multiple entry points; 2. GC code; 3. Image save/load; all with C++ interop.
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<jasom>
drmeister: what's the side effect of the translate::from_object calls?
<jasom>
drmeister: if the indentation isn't wrong, they are statements not expressions
<jasom>
oh nevermind, that's a declaration
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<drmeister>
Yes, I am declaring lexical variables of the type 'translate:from_object<xxx>'
<drmeister>
This is because often C++ functions get around the lack of multiple return values by returning values in argument references.
<drmeister>
The code I pasted can convert the values in those arguments back into Common Lisp values and add them to the multiple-values return.
<drmeister>
The programmer can also specify when pointers are returned this way - the lifetime of the pointed to object can be managed/adopted by Common Lisp - or not adopted by Common Lisp.
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<drmeister>
I went into the ##c++-general irc channel and asked the question.
<drmeister>
Someday - I hope that in Common Lisp that we can have a language feature as powerful and as expressive as C++17's std::apply.
<jasom>
drmeister: how does apply solve this problem?
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<jasom>
That works once you have a tupple of your translate::fromobject<> items, but I thought the confusion was generating a fold expresion that captures the frame->arg(N) initializers?
<jasom>
Which thinking about it you can do with a templated lambda that increments a counter.
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<jasom>
gah templated lambdas aren't until C++20
<jasom>
fine a templated function that takes a reference to a counter and the frame :/
<jasom>
Then just fold the comma operator in std::make_tuple
<jasom>
I suppose the more C++ way would be to use a template method and keep the counter and frame in the class. Whatever.
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<jasom>
drmeister: I commented with my example of how I would probably generate the tuple; from there you can use std::apply to use it.
<drmeister>
Hi - I got pulled away for a few min.
<jasom>
drmeister: note I haven't written any C++ code in 2 years so huge disclaimer on it even compiling out-of-the-box but should give you an idea
<jasom>
s/I commented/I commented on the gist/
<jasom>
it looked like the definition of "frame" was in a macro so I used "FrameType" as a placeholder.
<drmeister>
I have three problems - I think. 1. Create a from_object<xxx> variable for each argument (I think I can do this with tuples). 2. Apply the function to the tuple (std::apply - I think). 3. Evaluate ReturnValueWhen(...) on each argument - (maybe std::apply??)
<jasom>
no apply for ReturnValueWhen
<jasom>
you want to use fold on the "," operator
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<jasom>
I also just noticed that you never use the a0/a1/a2 objects directly, just the ._v member; is there a side-effect of those objects being alive, or can you just put the ._v members directly in the tuple?
<drmeister>
I'm not sure yet. I think I use the a0._v because I can declare the _v field with the type of the argument. The 'a0' part is the from_object<xxx> instance.
<drmeister>
I agree with you about the fold on the comma operator.
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<copec>
drmeister: Coming from someone who hasn't done much C++, and even then it was in the 90's, is your statement about std::apply sarcastic or serious?
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<copec>
It doesn't appear to me there are more modern programming language notions or something, so I'll guess sarcastic
<phoe>
no, he's completely serious - it's not like in CL we have some means of applying arbitrary functions to arbitrary lists of arguments
<phoe>
Let's assume that we have a metaclass, and then several classes defined with that metaclass. What would be the cleanest way to automatically define a method specialized on each such class whenever that class is defined?
<phoe>
In other words, I'd like (defclass foo () () (:metaclass my-class)) to also cause (defmethod frobnicate ((foo-1 foo) (foo-2 foo)) ...)
<phoe>
should I define an :AFTER method on ENSURE-CLASS-USING-CLASS that calls ADD-METHOD?
<phoe>
or should it be MAKE-INSTANCE on the metaclass?
<jasom>
phoe: for class-redefinitions make-instance on the metaclass won't work, right?
<phoe>
correct... huh, shared-initialize specialized on the metaclass?
<jasom>
phoe: that looks right to me, but my MOP-fu is weak
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<drmeister>
copec: Sarcastic.
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<copec>
Every remote now and then there is some nice novel syntax
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<markasoftware>
phoe: maybe make all the metaclass instances inherit from a certain class, in the same way that all standard-class instances inherit from standard-object?