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<bottlecap>
is there an alternative to using `trace` in ABCL?
<bottlecap>
#learninglisp
<bottlecap>
woops
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<bottlecap>
sorry i mean't `step`
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<ldb>
good morning everyone
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<Oladon>
I've created an executable with SBCL's save-lisp-and-die, but am getting an "Internal error" and dropped into ldb as soon as I run it. Could someone help me debug? Error is: Internal error #11 "Object is of the wrong type." at 0x5297650a
<Oladon>
SC: 0, Offset: 7 0x00000061: other immediate 0, no tls value marker: data=0
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<ldb>
Oladon: please provide platform and version, and better ask help in #sbcl
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<Lycurgus>
there's a note on sbcl 2.0.6 that sb-mop and sb-pcl will in future no longer export defined symbols
<Lycurgus>
is that supposed to be inocuous because if you are using the defined functional protocol you don't need access to the symbols?
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<Lycurgus>
nvm, assume it will be explained further if and when
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<Bike>
it says they won't be exported from sb-pcl. presumably they'll still be exported from sb-mop.
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<Lycurgus>
ah, I didn catch that it was an alternation, ty
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<brettgilio>
Hey. I am trying to use M-x slime-load-system, and it is returning me with this issue: Error (MEMORY-FAULT-ERROR) during printing: #<SB-INT:SIMPLE-READER-PACKAGE-ERROR {1003D5DDC3}>
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<beach>
brettgilio: Is that from a fresh SBCL image?
<brettgilio>
beach: SBCL 2.0.5
<beach>
I mean, is this immediately after starting SBCL, or did you load some other stuff first?
<brettgilio>
Its after I start slime and connect to sbcl as the inferior, then require asdf.
<beach>
I see. And does it happen also when you load the system from the REPL, as opposed to going through SLIME?
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<VincentVega>
Good day, all. I am having this really basic problem trying to access a struct field in a tree from the spatial-trees package. Here is a program and all the details, would be glad if someone could help: https://pastebin.com/p5QCCiWD
<beach>
Apparently, you are not supposed to use LEAF-NODE-ENTRY-DATUM, since it is not external.
<beach>
But if you know what you are doing and you want to use it anyway, do SPATIAL-TREES-IMPL::LEAF-NODE-ENTRY-DATUM with two colons.
<beach>
Since the symbol is not exported, it may go away in future releases of the library.
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<beach>
In fact, I am guessing, you should not use the -IMPL package at all.
<beach>
Are you sure there is not the equivalent functionality in the -PROTOCOL package?
<VincentVega>
beach: with two cols I get the error "The value ... is not of type SPATIAL-TREES-IMPL:LEAF-NODE-ENTRY" (strangely enough)
<beach>
That's true, it isn't. I mean CHILDREN suggests a list and not an entry.
<VincentVega>
beach: not sure about the protocol package
<beach>
Yeah, me neither.
<VincentVega>
beach: oh, yeah, the two cols work when i `first` the list
<VincentVega>
thanks
<beach>
Sure.
<VincentVega>
beach: so, I figure, a double column is for non-exported symbols then?
<beach>
"colon", yes.
<VincentVega>
beach: I see, ok : )
<beach>
But you are not supposed to use non-exported symbols, so I am guessing you are not using the system correctly.
<beach>
But since I don't know that system, I am not sure what you should be doing instead.
<VincentVega>
yeah, I think it's not the right way too, maybe I will find some other way
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<phoe>
good morniiiiing
<phoe>
brettgilio: memory fault errors shouldn't happen; which system is it, and does it also happen in newer SBCL versions?
<beach>
Hello phoe.
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<phoe>
hey hi
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<phoe>
it's a .cpp file
<phoe>
it doesn't smell good
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<Josh_2>
I'm starting to get real tired of ningle, just seems so clunky to do anything with the middleware
<mfiano>
u
<mfiano>
oops, sorry
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<phoe>
u2
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<drmeister>
Hey folks - I dunno how many of you do low level debugging with gdb or lldb.
<drmeister>
But if you do - you should check out the "Undo" time traveling debugger.
<drmeister>
I've been using an evaluation copy for the last couple of days and it is amazing.
<drmeister>
It records the state of every instruction from when you connect to the process to a break-point. Then you can backup and examine registers.
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<drmeister>
Here I'm using it to debug a tricky problem in clasp's Common Lisp compiler.
<p_l>
drmeister: yeah, though now I checked mostly in "professional services", so I guess custom patches for clients ;)
<p_l>
nice integration with source listing you have, never seen it work with other debuggers when it comes to lisp
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<drmeister>
Yeah - we've been adding DWARF generation to clasp. We have a bit more work to do with inlined code. We have the inlinedAt chain - but we aren't generating the appropriate DWARF with it yet.
<drmeister>
udb makes it easier to figure out where the holes in the DWARF coverage are.
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<drmeister>
I also wrote a python extension that works with gdb and lldb and lets you examine lisp objects from the outside using the gdb/lldb debugger.
<Fare>
drmeister, using Python is its own punishment.
<Fare>
Why didn't you do it in Lisp?
<drmeister>
Don't I know it.
<Fare>
You don't know Lisp?
<drmeister>
Is there a Common Lisp extension capability for lldb and gdb?
<drmeister>
Anyway - I'm a practical polyglot.
<Fare>
Might be more fun, less time, and less soul-sucking to write one than to use Python.
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<drmeister>
gdb has guile - but that's not Common Lispy enough for me - it would probably damage my programming ability.
<Fare>
I don't think I can ever again use Python in my life.
<Fare>
Guile is acceptable.
<Fare>
Why damage?
<Fare>
Scheme is quite similar to CL.
<Fare>
Though yes, there are enough differences
<drmeister>
Too similar.
<p_l>
drmeister: too many false friends?
<Fare>
You could use it with one of those MEXP syntaxes.
<Fare>
so it would look more different
<drmeister>
Anyway - I have bigger fish to fry. I knocked the Python extension out in a couple of days and made it portable so that it works from lldb and gdb.
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<drmeister>
Aaand with gdb I made it work with Python 3.7 and Python 2.7 (udb uses gdb8 and for some reason they use Python 2.7). Hi ho.
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<akoana>
Fare: may I ask, what are the (main) things you consider soul-sucking in python (just curious, if you like to share)?
<Fare>
oh my
<Fare>
Are you familiar with the concept of "attractive nuisance"?
<Fare>
something that looks nice, but when you try to use it, you can suffer severe harm.
<Fare>
people who deploy them in the wild are civilly liable for e.g. kids who jump in a empty swimming pool not protected by a fence.
<Fare>
People who publish python should be bankrupted and/or sent to jail. That includes Google developers and management who have promoted it.
<Fare>
The entire idea of "there are libraries for everything", but the actual quality of those libraries is appalling, and a maintenance disaster, and security liability.
<Fare>
even the standard library... full of horrors such as `l = [1,2]; m = l ; m += [3]` side-effecting the original
<p_l>
akoana: semantically important token in the form of 4 spaces. tantalizing you with "REPL" yet actually zero support for interactive programming, to the point that C is equally interactive. The libraries can be WTF, especially when you need to deal with deep exception chains, where sometimes your recovery attempts fail because somehow the library deleted the object and thus causing a totally different error....
<stylewarning>
the best thing about python is its dead simple, fun, and easy way of distributing your application to others
<Fare>
Happily, x = 2; y = x ; x +=1 doesn't side-effect all occurrences of the integer constant 2.
<Fare>
it LOOKS dead simple, but its semantics is actually quite horrible. Scoping rules? Oh my.
<Josh_2>
Ima screenshot this and send to my python buddies
<p_l>
stylewarning: I honestly wanted to whack you with a shovel for a moment there, got PTSD from that line
<bitmapper>
stylewarning: solution: use clpython
<Fare>
basically, the syntax looks nice, but everything else is actually good... until it's actually terrible.
<stylewarning>
Fare: what is so difficult about getting a virtualenv and venv and downloading conda 4.6 and getting that to interact with your system pip (which you might as well override with conda's pip (but not the python.org pip)) and point things to the right python interpreter on a per project basis i really don't understand how you could be so confused
<Fare>
The idiot who designed Python had severe Dunning-Kruger and refused to delegate aspects of his languages to people who knew better, even when they were actually trying to help him.
<stylewarning>
Fare: you can make that Super Simple by putting all of that in a 7 GB docker image which you can give to me by making a totally free DockerHub account
<Fare>
venv is horrible
<Fare>
give me ASDF any day in comparison; and I don't love ASDF *that* much in this respect.
<akoana>
Fare: (and all who responded) thank you. I understand, got similar feelings with python after trying to do some serious work with it. Confirming I'm not alone with my thoughts about it:)
<p_l>
Fare: I remember people laying into Ruby for Bundler. Except Python distribution tools make Ruby look like polished gem (pun intended)
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<Fare>
also—the object system is a toy, that was blessed into production
<p_l>
ohhh, the OOP
<Fare>
but what do you expect in a language that doesn't have macros so you could write your own OOP
<Fare>
they *have* to bless a toy, no other option
<p_l>
I honestly had an issue recently trying to figure how to call superclass' __init__
<p_l>
cause I haven't really worked in Python with classes since around beta releases of Py3k
<stylewarning>
i remember trying to write a function to tee a stream in python, like I wanted to do something like s = tee(stdout, logger) and write to s; it turns out you have to go copy paste some random stream class on stack overflow (lol duck typing) hoping it has the needed methods, because they're not clearly documented anywhere
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<stylewarning>
then the final advice i got was "just simply don't tee streams"
<stylewarning>
and i was enlightened
<Fare>
and then the incompetent decisions made while it was a toy are baked into all production software.
<Fare>
right now I'm using my own object system in Gerbil, instead of Gerbil's builtin object system. No problem, thanks to macros.
<paule32>
hello
<Josh_2>
hi paule32
<Fare>
And while it *is* a (nice) toy, there is no pretense and no need to cast it in stone as everyone's only allowed object system for decades to come when using the language.
<Fare>
paule32: what's wrong is you failed to describe your expectations and how the discrepancy between expectations and reality
<paule32>
Josh_2: yes, but nearly on
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<paule32>
; caught ERROR:
<paule32>
; Variable name is not a symbol: (AREF *GRID* X1 YA).
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<drmeister>
Anywho - I get a pass on using Python to write a gdb/lldb extension because I'm developing a Common Lisp implementation to avoid using Python in the rest of my life.
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<p_l>
drmeister: you have my honest condolences that you had to deal with it, and well wishes for your work :)
<Josh_2>
drmeister: that sounds very cool
<drmeister>
I wish I could convince my colleagues though. They think the height of scientific software development is to develop a Python bindings for Fortan code.
<paule32>
Josh_2: ?
<paule32>
can you help
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<drmeister>
paule32: Your code runs fine in clasp (a Common Lisp implementation)