<philweb>
any recommendations/pointers on building a small-ish sbcl image for use on a mobile device? I did some poking around on tree shakers and what little I found didn't seem to favor that approach
<contrapunctus>
philweb: any reason you're using SBCL rather than ECL for that?
<contrapunctus>
jgodbout: lmao
<jgodbout>
?
<jgodbout>
ah i see
<philweb>
only that I'm more familiar with sbcl and know it runs reasonably well on 64-bit arm. I'm open to ecl if you think that would be a better option for this use case
<bhartrihari>
philweb: If you want to make apps for android or iOS then EQL5-Android allows you to do that using ECL. If you just want to run some lisp code on ARM sbcl (though single threaded, IIRC) should be fine. CCL might be preferred here because it has threads if you need them on ARM.
<philweb>
bhartrihari: my app will actually be running on linux (i.e. pinephone for now) and have moderate ffi needs (gtk etc)
<ldb>
i find that a space efficient way to implement property list is let a hash-table of keys with each entry hold a hash-table of value to each objects
<bhartrihari>
I see.
<philweb>
ccl doesn't appear to be an option here due to lack of 64-bit arm support currently
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<ldb>
I have a CLOS question: if I have a class allocation slot with initform that makes a hashtable, will this solt reinitialized when a subclass is created?
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<mfiano>
Not unless you pass a different value with :initform or :default-initargs
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<ldb_>
from some testing with CCL seems re-eval the defclass won't cause the hashtable to be recreated
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<ldb_>
mfiano: thanks
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<easye>
minion: memo for jgodbout: unfortunately that is an outdated piece of documentation, the ABCL User Manual describes is as "evaluates forms specified by arguments and in the initialization file ~/.abclrc, and then exits without starting a REPL".
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell jgodbout when he/she/it next speaks.
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<VincentVega>
Hi all, wondering, is there a convention for naming slot accessors?
<VincentVega>
I am thinking, get-name would name a getter, but not an accessor...
<ldb>
you might just use slot name default to accessor
<VincentVega>
ldb: yeah, but that could conflit with some function already in existence. and in that case, renaming the slot accessor would be inconsistent.
<treflip>
I know that sometimes slots and acessors are named exactly the same, but slots are prefixed with %
<ldb>
VincentVega: if the class name is not long, classname- can be the prefix
<VincentVega>
treflip: I saw somewhere that % is used for low-level dangerous functions... though that gives me an idea to name the accessors @name
<pve>
VincentVega: name-of is another possibility
<VincentVega>
ldb: yeah that's a possibility
<VincentVega>
pve: hmmm yeah looks decent
<VincentVega>
oh, I forgot that @ is not really an option
<VincentVega>
or wait it is though
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<Josh_2>
Afternoon all
<ldb>
Josh_2: hello
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<beach>
VincentVega: The best choice is not to prefix or suffix the accessor with anything in particluar.
<beach>
VincentVega: The convention of prefixing with the class name looks really dumb when you have subclasses, so in CLIM, for instance, you see things like (SHEET-PARENT PANE). It would have been much better to just name it PARENT rather than SHEET-PARENT.
<beach>
VincentVega: And the convention of prefixing with GET- is not used in Common Lisp, other than some names that are there for historical reasons.
<scymtym>
i thought CLIM used the protocol name (which admittedly coincides with the name of the corresponding protocol class)
<beach>
Maybe so. But it still looks strange when applied to an instance of a subclass.
<scymtym>
sure, i would have preferred the {pre,suf}fix-less version as well
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<beach>
We don't have a choice with an existing specification, but we can recommend the *fix-less version for new code.
<beach>
And I personally don't like the -OF convention, but I have no objective argument against it.
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<VincentVega>
beach: Yeah, prefixing a class name looks overly verbose. I am currently considering slot@ which is both short and unlikely to create a clash.
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<ldb>
there's a set of interesting conventions in KEIM that uses + = ~ * for different kinds of names
<ldb>
guess might need a feature to hide a name in current package and refer it with certain prefix
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<VincentVega>
ldb: tnx I'll check it out
<ldb>
VincentVega: i don't recommend to adopt it, because that was based on a customized module system
<VincentVega>
ldb: I see, alright
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<beach>
VincentVega99: Where would you put the @?
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<VincentVega99>
beach: at the end of the slot name I think, like this (slot@ obj)
<beach>
VincentVega99: There is no "clash" with the slot name, so people like Xach use the same name for the slot and the accessor, considering that any use of SLOT-VALUE is a no-no. I myself prefix the slot name with %, which is already used traditionally in Common Lisp to mean "private" or "watch out".
<beach>
VincentVega99: So then, client code who uses SLOT-VALUE would have to type package::%slot-name, where both :: and % indicates that something is off.
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<VincentVega99>
beach: Oh, I don't mean the clash to be a clash with the slot name, but rather with a function defined somewhere else in the package (smth like range, I mean, it's not unimaginable). But, yeah, I see the use of % for the slots which aren't meant to be accessed directly.
<beach>
A slot name cannot class with a function name. They are in different name spaces.
<beach>
VincentVega99: Slots are never meant to be accessed directly.
<beach>
They are implementation details.
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<VincentVega99>
beach: Hmmm yes indeed, that's oop done the right way.
<beach>
Even slots that are used only within a particular module can benefit from being accessed through accessors, because you can then define auxiliary methods on the accessor generic functions.
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<VincentVega99>
beach: auxilary methods is a good point, can't argue with that
<beach>
Another point is that, if you ever want to change from one characteristic being stored to being calculated, or vice versa, then if you use SLOT-VALUE you have to change it everywhere.
<beach>
A simple example would be the CIRCUMFERENCE of a geometric figure. You may very well decide at some point that it should be calculated and then at some later point that it should be stored, or the other way around.
<VincentVega99>
beach: hey, man, I think there's a misunderstanding. I didn't really plan to name the slot any differently, just the accessor. So, like this https://pastebin.com/qTQkv4ju
<beach>
That's a terrible idea.
<beach>
There is no such convention in Common Lisp, and the name of the accessor is what is typically exported.
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<beach>
Now you have client code know whether it is a slot accessor or not.
<beach>
So if you had CIRCUMFERENCE before (calculated) you now have to tell your client to change all his or her code, when you decide to store it, and therefore you now call it CIRCUMFERENCE@.
<beach>
You would not end up in that situation, any more than you would end up wanting the same name for two different ordinary functions in a module. Different purposes imply different names.
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<VincentVega99>
beach: "tell your client to change all his or her code, when you decide to store it" Sorry, but I am failing to see how that's the case if the convention in the package is to call all accessors CIRCUMFERENCE@ from the beginning
<VincentVega99>
beach: "Different purposes imply different names." I agree, maybe I am worried without a good reason about this
<beach>
I am saying that it is not an accessor from the beginning. You write your code like this (defgeneric circumference (object) ;; compute from stored information in the object...
<beach>
Then you change your mind, and store the circumference to avoid computing it each time, so now you have a slot (circumference :accessor circumference@). Now your client must change his or her code.
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<beach>
Look, you wanted to know the conventions, and you asked for advice. You got it. But I have the impression you just wanted to have your initial idea OK-d by #lisp.
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<VincentVega99>
beach: I am not complaining, that's what I came here for (both for advice and for the idea to be OK'd) : ) And yes, now I see what you mean.
<beach>
Good.
<VincentVega99>
beach: thanks!
<beach>
Pleasure.
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<VincentVega99>
contrapunctus: thanks for the links, it's about time I read up on clos a bit more thoroughly than a few examples
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<philweb>
anyone familiar with floating point exception handling in ECL? I'm having problems disabling either within ECL or from the command line and not sure if my issue is that the docs are outdated/incorrect documentation or if I'm just misunderstanding them
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<philweb>
phoe: it looks like the same thing I've tried: (si::trap-fpe :divide-by-zero nil) but then I still get an error with (/ 1 0). I also tried setting it to t rather than nil thinking I had it backwards... no change
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<jackdaniel>
1 0 division is not fp operation though
<jackdaniel>
try 1.0 0.0
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<flip214>
has someone succeeded in using sbcl on android? so that some fasl file gets loaded as an app?
<flip214>
I just remembered that I have an ARM32 pre-build binary floating around, that might just work
<phoe>
philweb: #'/ on rationals will not output a float, but a rational, which is why, as jackdaniel said, there's no float division and therefore no float exceptions to mask
<philweb>
jackdaniel: doh! right you are. thanks... so it looks like a combination of outdated docs (the docs indicate division-by-zero rather than divide-by-zero) and then me screwing up testing it
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<jackdaniel>
I'll update the manual, thank you
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<mseddon>
weird question- there are obviously legal copies of the CLHS and ClTl2 online, but are they hosted by particular copyright holders, or can I use e.g. their function definitions etc to create my own reference documentation?
<mseddon>
(obviously I would cite the original source)
<mseddon>
I know, for example I can install them into emacs, but I wonder does it just pull them down to bypass that?
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<mseddon>
So e.g. it seems CLHS is owned by LispWorks.
<aeth>
CLHS itself is, but there are other versions based on a draft of the spec
<aeth>
You could also independently document it, but then it's not authoritative.
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<gendl>
Hi, if i put a (break) in my program, which lands me in the slime debugger, how can I get a repl with local variables set as in a chosen item from the backtrace ?
<gendl>
if I open the item 0 in the backtrace i'm seeing "Locals:" with the relevant local variables reported, so now i'd like a repl to be able to evaluate expressions in that environment
<gendl>
sorry if this is slime debugger basics which i should be rtfm for...
<gendl>
looks like e command is what I want (eval in frame)
<phoe>
gendl: I wish there was a fully featured REPL-in-frame
<phoe>
but it seems that all we have is eval-in-frame
<gendl>
phoe: got it. well, eval-in-frame one expression at a time is enough for me for now. at least i can see the exact expression the error is coming from so i can dive into its code.
<jmercouris>
it is a useful project, but different
<fwoaroof[m]>
So, the idea I had is that you have a generic function called "main"
<fwoaroof[m]>
A system implements this generic function specialized on the uppercase version of the program name (argv[0])
<philweb>
when building an application using asdf:make-build in ECL, what information is being used to determine which packages need to be included in the resulting image? I see that it's pulling in a lot, but not everything needed.
<fwoaroof[m]>
Then, when the system starts up it loads the system corresponding to argv[0] and runs MAIN with the command line arguments
<jmercouris>
fwoaroof[m]: how do you know WHAT the arguments are without parsing all of the forms?
<phoe>
philweb: which ASDF version are you using?
<fwoaroof[m]>
So, your implementation of MAIN is expected to parse the arguments
<phoe>
I'm asking because there's been some recent bugs on ASDF that sound similar to what you describe
<fwoaroof[m]>
It's probably a bit more barebones than fire-hpp
<jmercouris>
I know there is some way to determine the arguments associated with a function object, but I was told it was non portable if I remember
<philweb>
I was afraid you'd say that ;-) (the downside to running stable)... ugh, it's the same version in testing. Is there no maintainer for it on Debian?
<jmercouris>
I also remember trivial arguments
<philweb>
guess I'll fork the repo and build locally
<fwoaroof[m]>
iirc the first value is the ordinary arguments, the second is optional as triples and the third is keys in some shape :)
<phoe>
or (documentation 'alexandria:parse-ordinary-lambda-list 'function)
<jmercouris>
Aha!
<fwoaroof[m]>
alexandria is usually pretty-well documented
<jmercouris>
well well well!
<jmercouris>
this could be le ticket
<jmercouris>
I think this is le ticket
<jmercouris>
this is great
<jmercouris>
why does this even exist
<jmercouris>
how many people could possibly need this function
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<phoe>
everyone who writes custom DEFUNs and needs to do something with argument lists
<jmercouris>
are there a lot of people doing that?
<jmercouris>
I mean, alexandria is typically pretty conservative
<jmercouris>
I am surprised they would put something in it that seems to niche to me
<phoe>
many enough to warrant the includion of PARSE-BODY and PARSE-ORDINARY-LAMBDA-LIST
<jmercouris>
s/to/so
<phoe>
otherwise people would reinvent those functions, poorly
<jmercouris>
anyone have experience doing genetic programming in CL by directly recombining sexps and bodies together?
<jmercouris>
I am just thinking about since you mentioned parse-body and parse-ordinary-lambda-list
<jmercouris>
no? not many people involed in AI in this channel?
<aeth>
Xach: This might sound like a stupid question, but is Quicklisp just for Common Lisp? I can think of two edge cases where CL libraries might be of limited utility to the broader CL community: (1) add-ons for a CL application (e.g. Nyxt Browser) or (2) libraries for a language integrated with and written in CL but not CL
<jmercouris>
I am planning on leveraging quicklisp for addons to Nyxt
<jmercouris>
I've seen how to make a quicklisp dist, and that's basically what I will do, use Zach's tools to hopefully have a dist for it
<aeth>
Yes, #1 relates to my game engine (Zombie Raptor) and #2 relates to my Scheme-in-CL, Airship Scheme.
<jmercouris>
I also looked at ultralisp to see if it would be simpler to set-up, but it seems no
<aeth>
For #2 in particular, I'm not sure if it belongs in a separate dist or as part of CL, especially since quite a lot of the Scheme should be callable from and usable in CL. You'd have to go out of your way for that not to happen
<jmercouris>
I remember borodust having some tool to make things simpler
<aeth>
(I haven't placed my thoughts on #1 in the ZR issue tracker yet.)
<jmercouris>
with regard to creating a quicklisp dist
<aeth>
jmercouris: I want to fork Ultralisp for Airship Scheme not because I find it useful but because it's git-enriched, and thus it can be called Git-Rich Quickscheme.
<jmercouris>
lol, that's great :-D
<aeth>
Yes, I will have won the Internet at that point.
<aeth>
But Quickscheme comes before Ultralisp's Git-Rich Quickscheme.
<aeth>
jmercouris: re opening up libraries for usage... to be fair, someone has been implementing Scheme SRFIs in Common Lisp and that might be more directly useful for Common Lispers. https://github.com/g000001/srfi-47
<jmercouris>
what is a SRFI?
<aeth>
hmm... so weird seeing a different define-function that's not my gigantic zr-utils:define-function macro.
<phoe>
CDRs, except in Scheme
<jeosol>
aeth: just read the info on airship scheme, very lofty project. Congratulations.
<jeosol>
The git-rich quick-scheme name would be nice ...
<aeth>
jeosol: SRFI is a mix between CDRs (specifications of things to implement, sort of like bordeaux-threads but at the implementation level, more like if sb-unicode was a formal library implemented in more than one place)
<jeosol>
I like the path of being able to use libraries from scheme. When I use to go to comp.lang.lisp, some quotes srfi- and a number, that I 'll find a function, I wondered how they remembered the numbers after the srfi
<aeth>
jeosol: thanks
<jeosol>
They seemed arbitrary to me,but i am sure there is some pattern
<aeth>
Oh, it's just in order of specification
<aeth>
A bunch are being integrated to R7RS-large and being renamed as part of the process, though
<jmercouris>
so, not exactly arbitrary, but close enough
<aeth>
That list might not be 100% accurate, it's hard to put together this information
<aeth>
But I think the thing about SRFIs is that they're like https://oeis.org/
<aeth>
It gives an objective name to refer to something
<phoe>
minion: what does SRFI mean?
<minion>
Stellerine Roomage Friarhood Iambically
<jmercouris>
???
<jmercouris>
what does that mean
<aeth>
e.g. for Fibonacci you can just call them A000045 and not everything is important enough to have a name like "Fibonacci" https://oeis.org/A000045
<jmercouris>
minion: tell me a joke
<minion>
jmercouris: does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you?
<jmercouris>
lol
<jmercouris>
close enough :-D
<jeosol>
haha.
<jeosol>
meaning of SRFI above. I don't remember the name, but one contributor over comp.lang that offered scheme answers seemed to have a good handle on the numbering. Good to see list as compiled.
<aeth>
it would be nice to number the core CL libraries. bt, uiop, alexandria, etc.
<aeth>
(1) portable versions of an implementation's libraries like (chibi test), which would be the equivalent of e.g. making sb-unicode into a library (which would be *really* nice, if anyone needs any ideas)
<jeosol>
As one of the goals is to be able to run both scheme and CL, what is the space of intersection of libraries like?
<jeosol>
I haven't used scheme at all, and I remember in a previous discussion with Fare, he said he was using (I think) gerbil scheme
<aeth>
jeosol: Ideally, every public Scheme procedure will be automatically exposed as a CL function, which will also serve as an entry point into the Airship Scheme runtime (to handle tail recursion and continuations).
<aeth>
jeosol: Going the other direction, it's not as simple because of the ambiguity between nil-as-false and nil-as-empty-list in CL. (It's easy to turn both nil and #f into CL:NIL, but not easy to determine whether CL:NIL should be nil or #f)
<jeosol>
aeth: That's a nice feature when I read it from your gitlab project page. Very nice
<aeth>
Stuff that heavily uses macros or reader macros (or SRFI-specified syntax extensions in the case of Scheme) or continuations will complicate things
<aeth>
Perhaps Scheme macros could automatically make CL macros as well, since I control this, but the other way around is just... probably not going to work.
<phoe>
aeth: if a piece of Scheme code is loadable and useful from CL then I see no reason why it shouldn't be in Quicklisp; look at all the foreign code that is written in C and is loadable and useful from CL
<aeth>
phoe: Yes, but what if I wrote a library that solely deals with continuations, which are emulated in Scheme via continuation passing style?
<phoe>
uh, you mean something like cl-cont?
<aeth>
phoe: more like a library that's designed to be used by users of cl-cont, I guess.
<phoe>
why not?
<phoe>
I mean, sure, why not?
<aeth>
Cool, now I can't wait to wrap lots of useful libraries in cl-
<aeth>
*cl-brainfuck
<aeth>
:-p
<aeth>
Hopefully I can get a left-pad situation going where nearly every CL project depends on some Brainfuck :-p
<jeosol>
phoe: not to digress to much, how is the process with clcs. I have been out for a while
<phoe>
jeosol: the book is still in production. I'll notify everyone on GitHub when we have something to look at.
<jeosol>
phoe: no worries. I am just checking. It seems things are grinding along well.
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<aeth>
jeosol, phoe: I will probably go above and beyond what's required to just get Scheme running on CL to try to get the interop working better, e.g. I'll try to use trivial-extensible-sequences (if they work!) for the sequences available in Scheme but not in CL (lazy lists? maybe a few others).
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<aeth>
I'm also considering writing a reader macro that blends Scheme and CL (since the readers are slightly incompatible with each other) by extending CL to support some Scheme syntax (like "foo\n" to end a string with a newline)
<fwoaroof[m]>
jmercouris: if you have ideas about extending my protocol to handle your use case, I'd be interested, BTW
<fwoaroof[m]>
minione: memo for jmercouris: if you have ideas about extending my protocol to handle your use case, I'd be interested, BTW
<fwoaroof[m]>
minion: memo for jmercouris: if you have ideas about extending my protocol to handle your use case, I'd be interested, BTW
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
<fwoaroof[m]>
sorry, can't type :)
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<fwoaroof[m]>
I've been thinking of integrating clon, because I like how it handles command line arguments alot
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<philweb>
I've installed ECL 20.4.24 and attempted asdf:make-build again. Now it's complaining about a couple of UIOP packages referenced in compiled file nil