<minion>
i don't agree - message for josh_2 effective slot definition isn't a virtual class and should not be directly instantiated see httpsstackoverflow comquestions21986977additional properties to slot definition
<minion>
i don't agree - message for josh_2 effective slot definition isn't a virtual class and should not be directly instantiated see httpsstackoverflow comquestions21986977additional properties to slot definition
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell Josh_2 when he/she/it next speaks.
<mrcom>
minion: memo for Josh_2: Other notes: looks like you're trying to set up a circular dependency with VALIDATE-SUPERCLASS. "`',slot-names-lock-alist" isn't... what you want. The INITFUNCTION is the proper way to do it, completely overriding :INITFORM and :INITARG.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell Josh_2 when he/she/it next speaks.
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<mrcom>
minion: memo for Josh_2: And I suspect your end goal is automatically thread-safe slots. This is a common thought, but kind of a dead-end. The primary issue with thread-safety isn't reading or updating a single slot. It's the higher-level cross-slot operations (e.g. changing STREET-ADDRESS and CITY), cross-object (updating object's address and the ADDRESS-HASH-TABLE that points to it), and global (making sure there's only one obje
<mrcom>
ct with user ID FOO-BAX).
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell Josh_2 when he/she/it next speaks.
<mrcom>
minion: memo for Josh_2: You'll probably find you need a single mutex per object, and one or more global mutexes. Most importantly, you'll need to define atomic functions/generic functions, and these will be completely aware of the mutexes.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell Josh_2 when he/she/it next speaks.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell Josh_2 when he/she/it next speaks.
<mrcom>
minion: memo for Josh_2: In other words, you aren't going to need a broad superclass which invisibly adds lock slots.
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<varun_>
hi
<beach>
Hello varun_.
<varun_>
another lisp channel?
<beach>
This is the Common Lisp channel. There is ##lisp for other "Lisps".
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<varun_>
there is one #lispgames too
<beach>
Indeed.
<varun_>
whats that for
<varun_>
and whats this for
<varun_>
and yes
<varun_>
whats the others for?
<beach>
This one is for discussions about the language, implementations of the language, and implementations of applications written in Common Lisp.
<beach>
#clschool is for newbies who want to learn Common Lisp.
<beach>
#lispgames I suppose is for game developers. I don't hang out there.
<varun_>
y
<varun_>
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<tourjin>
quicklisp install fails on (quicksisp-quickstart:install) with error of Condition of type: idxu INVALID-ARGUMENT-ERROR Socket error in "socket": EINVAL (Invalid argument)
<jdz>
tourjin: I think ECL comes with (probably modified) Quicklisp.
<tourjin>
then i don't need to install quicklisp?
<jdz>
tourjin: Instead of downloading Quicklisp, just do (require 'ecl-quicklisp).
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<jdz>
Not sure where this is described, though.
<phoe>
hello everyone
<contrapunctus>
hello phoe
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<tourjin>
in ecl (require 'ecl-quicklisp) returns loading #p"/data/blhablha/ecl-20.4.24/ecl-quicklisp.fas, ecl-curl.fas, sockets.fas"
<tourjin>
unable to load / install quicklisp. error message follows:
<tourjin>
socket error in "socket": EINVAL (Invalid argument)
<tourjin>
still there is something wrong with socket.
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<jdz>
tourjin: This might be a good time to ask in #ecl.
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<tourjin>
ok thanks
<tourjin>
join #ec
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<shidima>
j/quit
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<sm2n>
good morning
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<Josh_2>
morning all
<minion>
Josh_2, memo from mrcom: You'll probably find you need a single mutex per object, and one or more global mutexes. Most importantly, you'll need to define atomic functions/generic functions, and these will be completely aware of the mutexes.
<minion>
Josh_2, memo from mrcom: And I suspect your end goal is automatically thread-safe slots. This is a common thought, but kind of a dead-end. The primary issue with thread-safety isn't reading or updating a single slot. It's the higher-level cross-slot operations (e.g. changing STREET-ADDRESS and CITY), cross-object (updating object's address and the ADDRESS-HASH-TABLE that points to it), and global (making sure there's only one obje
<minion>
Josh_2, memo from mrcom: Other notes: looks like you're trying to set up a circular dependency with VALIDATE-SUPERCLASS. "`',slot-names-lock-alist" isn't... what you want. The INITFUNCTION is the proper way to do it, completely overriding :INITFORM and :INITARG.
<minion>
Josh_2, memo from mrcom: In other words, you aren't going to need a broad superclass which invisibly adds lock slots.
<Josh_2>
oof
<sm2n>
heh
<Josh_2>
mrcom: I can get slot-value to grab a mutex using an :around on slot-value-using-class. I guess this could just be one aspect of a library I could create to aid with making parallel systems, because handling locks is such a pita
<Josh_2>
it seems like something the MOP is perfect for
<Josh_2>
I'm also not trying to add additional properties to my slot definition, i simply want to append an extra slot
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<luqqy>
good day all!
<luqqy>
anyone know if there's smth like with-slots for structures?
<phoe>
there's two options
<phoe>
1) you can use with-accessors or wrap a macro on top of that to emulate the behavior
<phoe>
2) you can use with-slots based on the fact that, even though it's undefined by the standard, the last time I checked *ALL* implementations defined SLOT-VALUE on structures in a meaningful way, the same that you could expect from standard objects.
<luqqy>
oh, this is great
<phoe>
and suggesting option 2) is going to get me a real good scolding from beach in a few moments
<phoe>
that's one of the things that *really* needs a CDR of sorts.
<luqqy>
thanks man, both look pretty good
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<jackdaniel>
I think that it is a pretty bold omission to not even mention the structure-class metaclass in mop
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<phoe>
jackdaniel: oh! I didn't think of it
<phoe>
...how does STRUCTURE-CLASS help with WITH-SLOTS though?
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<jackdaniel>
with-slots-using-class
<jackdaniel>
is a suggested way of implementing with-slots
<jackdaniel>
s/with-slots/slot-value/
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<Josh_2>
hnnng
<Josh_2>
only suggested? so It's not guaranteed to work in all implementations?
<Josh_2>
it works in sbcl
<jackdaniel>
slot-value-using-class is not part of the common lisp standard
<jackdaniel>
(however it is part of mop)
<Josh_2>
hmm
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<Josh_2>
I added a method for my metaclass and it worked just as expected, when I call slot-value slot-value-using-class was called (in sbcl)
<Josh_2>
can I rely on that behaviour in major implementations like CCL?
<Josh_2>
Any distribution that uses the MOP I assume
<jackdaniel>
"Although no implementation is required to do so, implementors are strongly encouraged to implement the function slot-value using the function slot-value-using-class described in the Metaobject Protocol. "
<jackdaniel>
I'd say yes, unless the documentation of your implementation states otherwise
<Josh_2>
okay thanks
<Josh_2>
where did you find that?
<jackdaniel>
under "Notes" section in slot-value specification
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<Josh_2>
in clhs?
<jackdaniel>
also, slot-value may be globally proclaimed inline
<jackdaniel>
yes, in common lisp standard
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<Josh_2>
okay
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<Josh_2>
the MOP is quite annoying
<Josh_2>
well, my failure to understand
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<tourjin>
clang-10: error: linker commnad failed with exit code 1 ( use -v to see invocation)
<tourjin>
what does this mean?
<phoe>
wait
<phoe>
how did you end up posting clang errors on #lisp
<jackdaniel>
probably he uses clang as a C backend for ecl
<phoe>
is this still ecl errors?
<phoe>
oh, yes
<phoe>
is this on termux/android?
<mrcom>
Josh_2: Yep, you're approaching the problem from bottom-up. You'll learn a lot about MOP in the process. Just warning you that you'll discover locking individual slots doesn't buy you much.
<tourjin>
yes I'm trying compile sbcl with ecl on android termux\
<jackdaniel>
that means that clang failed to link some objects after compiling them, this error doesn't allow to infere more from that
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<jackdaniel>
s/this error/this error message/
<tourjin>
phoe then should I try different lisp to compile sbcl from source ?
<phoe>
Josh_2: (defun frobnicate (object x y) (setf (slot-value object 'foo) x (slot-value object 'bar) y))
<jackdaniel>
ECL acronym standa for - Eeee-that-lisp-to-compile-sbCL-on-android-p
<jackdaniel>
stands*
<phoe>
even if both slots are synchronized you still can get race conditions from two simultaneous calls to FROBNICATE
<tourjin>
document says sbcl can be compiled with ecl. so I tryed all day but only failed with several warnings and clang-10 error
<mrcom>
Josh_2: In fact, you're probably already getting atomic updates of slots.
<_death>
maybe check out software transactional memory (e.g., the common lisp library stmx)
<_death>
I think it's currently broken and needs an update
<mrcom>
Josh_2: On 64-bit X86, 64-bit-aligned updates are atomic. Implementations are going to align CONS cells on words.
<mrcom>
Josh_2: Setting a slot value boils down to updating the CAR of the slot, which will be an atomic 64-operation. One instant the slot will point to the old value, and then the next to the new.
<mrcom>
s/CAR of the slot/CAR or array element/
<flip214>
jackdaniel: any plans to get ECL in f-droid?
<jackdaniel>
afair the problem with getting cl-repl there were problems of f-droid maintainers to build the thing, but that was 2y ago or so
<flip214>
only thing between ecl and world domination... at least by number of devices
<eta>
is there a way to do CHECK-TYPE on a function?
<eta>
i.e. something similar to the (DECLARE (FTYPE ... )) declaration, but for runtime lambda values
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<phoe>
not really
<phoe>
nothing portable at least
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<ldb>
good evening
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<ldb>
eta: what is the reason for check function's type?
<eta>
ldb, I want to validate that a callback passed into my function takes the right arguments
<jackdaniel>
arguments are evaluated from the left, not right! \j
* ldb
jackdaniel: no puns
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<jackdaniel>
don't pun-ish me
<luqqy>
just reflecting here, but one thing that sort of bugs me about common lisp is that functions aren't truly first class citizens
<ldb>
eta: you may require the client function to by a structure with the function and an validating object
<ldb>
luqqy: wut do u mean?
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<jackdaniel>
luqqy: that's a feature. if you want first-class objects, you may subclass a funcallabe-standard-class and setf it to (fdefinition 'symbol)
<ldb>
well so they are just not more equal then other objects (Animal Farm pun)
<phoe>
if you want FTYPE declarations that you can try to then take apart to validate arglists against, then you can use trivial-cltl2:function-information
<phoe>
and its third return value
<beach>
In what way are functions not first-class citizens?
<beach>
luqqy: ↑
<luqqy>
ldb, beach: lisp 2 for once, the problem eta voiced for two. ok, maybe i am being too brisk about this. there also was a pun in my complaint btw
<eta>
phoe, that sounds like what I want!
<phoe>
eta: figure out how FUNCTION-INFORMATION behaves when there's multiple FTYPE declarations, then, and write something that validates your arguments against each FTYPE declaration it finds there
<luqqy>
ldb, beach: composition, currying
<beach>
luqqy: You must have a very different definition of "first-class citizen".
<phoe>
luqqy: oh, you mean ALEXANDRIA:COMPOSE, ALEXANDRIA:CURRY, ALEXANDRIA:RCURRY?
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<beach>
luqqy: You are pretty new here, it seems. Maybe you need to ask question rather than affirming false statements.
<eta>
phoe, I mean, to be honest, it's probably more idiomatic to make the thing into a promise returning some CLOS class instead of doing it the callback-ey way
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<luqqy>
beach: you are right, i was a bit too quick to judge
<phoe>
eta: that's a more troublesome question because it requires some context about what you're doing
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<phoe>
but if you need to dive into low-level declaration stuff like this, then there's some mechanisms for that
<eta>
phoe, I'm writing a whatsapp library -- you make some request, like "upload a file", and get back some information asynchronously about where to put the file
<eta>
the issue is "how do I return these 4 pieces of information asynchronously in the most idiomatic way?"
<mrcom>
Josh_2: It will also teach you a lot about parallelism. Take what I said as foreshadowing; it *may* be enlightening in the future.
<jackdaniel>
because it is fun is a spoiled hacker reason :)
<Inline>
but anyway, when i start it i get a connection, but soon after the connection dies the server vanishes, and the stale connection gets tried to be replace forever....
<mrcom>
jackdaniel: Tell that to a farmer :)
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<Inline>
hmmmm
<Inline>
ok the install-image succeeds but cl-jupyter:install just fails, because then there's no reference to the quicklisp package obviously
<Inline>
lright thank you
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<mrcom>
Josh_2: You're doing fine. MOP is pretty recursive mentally.
<mrcom>
Josh_2: Points that might help: *1* Don't even think about _changing_ the standard classes. You're extending them into new child meta classes, which will be explicitly instantiated.
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<mrcom>
Josh_2: *2* Think of the MOP as "macros for classes". A good way of developing macros is to first manually write some of the DEFUNs you want to wind up with. Same thing for classes.
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<mrcom>
Josh_2: So, manually create some classes with the slot mutexes, and redefine the accessors with DEFMETHODs.
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<Josh_2>
I get that
<Josh_2>
thanks for the advice mrcom
<Josh_2>
but I'm still stuck haha
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<mrcom>
Josh_2: OK, have you created a class that does a bit of what you want?
<mrcom>
Josh_2: Are you ready to automate the creation of that class?
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<Josh_2>
I am stuck at the automating part :P
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<Josh_2>
trying to append a new slot onto the slots defined in defclass
<mrcom>
Good. Start with adding the extra slots you'll need. Keep your manual redefinitions of the accessors, for now.
<mrcom>
Did you look at the stackoverflow link?
<ebrasca>
Does some CL implementation compile in parallel?
<Josh_2>
mrcom: yes and I've read about that in AMOP
<jackdaniel>
specify what do you mean by parallel compilation
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<Josh_2>
in "Extending the language"
<mrcom>
ebrasca: SBCL. They just had a note in #sbcl.
<jackdaniel>
I'm sure that you can do (dotimes (f files) (bt:make-thread (lambda () (compile-file f))))
<jackdaniel>
on numerous implementations
<ebrasca>
jackdaniel: compiling multiple functions/parts in parallel.
<jackdaniel>
but sometimes compiler locks itself so only one thread does things
<mrcom>
Josh_2: OK, you're trying to extend standard-effective-slot-definition now, not instantiate effective-slot-definition?
<Josh_2>
no
<Josh_2>
I'm not trying to extend standard-effective...
<ebrasca>
In Mezzano you can enable parallel compilation.
<mrcom>
That's the first thing to do. Cut-n-paste the stackoverflow example.
<ebrasca>
Don't know how it works.
<Josh_2>
one sec you can see what I'm trying to do by seeing my compute-slots
<mrcom>
"This class is an abstract class and is not intended to be instantiated. The results are undefined if an attempt is made to make an instance of this class with make-instance."
<Josh_2>
but I'm not doing that
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<Josh_2>
I'm making an instance of direct-slot.. in that code and I have tried effective-slot as well
<Josh_2>
just like they do in the book
<Bike>
it looks like you're making a direct-slot-definition, not a standard-direct-slot-definition?
<mrcom>
Ah. You're trying to put the slot locks in the _metaclass_. They can go directly in the class, or in the _superclass_.
<mrcom>
_Metaclasses_ are the macros; they tell how to create the _classes_, not the instances.
<jackdaniel>
calling metaclasses macros is quite a stretch
<jackdaniel>
metaclasses are classes
<mrcom>
Yes, and macros are functions.
<jackdaniel>
which implement a specified protocol
<mrcom>
The point is, both tell how to create something that creates something.
<Josh_2>
mrcom: Hmm I thought I was trying to append the alist (of locks) onto any class whose metaclass is 'metalock'
<jackdaniel>
you can describe everything in terms of metaphysical input-output, but I think that this metaphore is not very useful
<mrcom>
Josh_2: You are. But the locks don't live in the metaclass.
<phoe>
a Lisp macro is a transform from source to source
<mrcom>
phoe: Yes, that's more accurate.
<phoe>
don't think this applies well to classes and metaclasses
<mrcom>
And that's the way you should think of a metaclass. It transforms a class definition.
<Josh_2>
yes I understand
<jackdaniel>
this way of thinking is plain wrong
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<mrcom>
jackdaniel: The point I'm trying to correct is that anything specific to an instance resides in a metaclass. It doesn't. You can put the equivalent of _class variables_ in a metaclass, but that's not where he's at.
<mrcom>
To possibly beat a dead horse: Metaclasses are only used when creating a _class_. Once the classes have been created you could, pretty much, delete the metaclasses.
<jackdaniel>
custom metaclass may be i.e. used to hold all this class instances in a weak hash table, and that's a very valid use of the metaclass protocol
<jackdaniel>
s/metaclass/metaobject/
<mrcom>
jackdaniel: Yep, but that's an even more advanced topic. Josh has been trying to wrap his head around plain old instance slots. (Which, BTW, is a very common sticking point when dealing with metaclasses.)
<jackdaniel>
I think that comparing metaclasses to macros, and saying that metaclass "transforms" the class is harmful for understanding what they are because it builds a wrong intuition
<jackdaniel>
I think I don't have much more to say on this topic, so I'll put my keyboard to rest
<mrcom>
OK, fire away :)
<Josh_2>
mrcom: on page 88 of AMOP where they show their example of compute-slots
<Josh_2>
they are appending a new slot just like I am
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<jackdaniel>
appending slots to instances is also a valid use of metaobject protocol
<jackdaniel>
as well as adding custom initargs to slots (i.e :required t, or :encrypted t) etc
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<jackdaniel>
fact that mop is so versatile is unfortunate at times, especially for compilation time optimizations
<Josh_2>
jackdaniel: that's what I'm tryna do
<Josh_2>
I'm basically just copying half the example from the book as I only want to add an extra slot
<jackdaniel>
if you ping me tomorrow maybe I'll be able to help
<jackdaniel>
for now I'm taking my toys and going to rest :)
<mrcom>
Hmm, and I may be been dealing with a red herring.
<mrcom>
The LOCKS slot in METALOCK isn't used, but that's what I was keying on.
<Josh_2>
yes I noticed that as well
<Josh_2>
that was my mistake, sorry about that
<Josh_2>
I have deleted it now
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<mrcom>
Nor is the second VALIDATE-SUPERCLASS defmethod (STANDARD-CLASS is not s subclass of METALOCK)
<VincentVega>
Guys, how do you deal with this problem? When I do eval-defun on (loop) in emacs, I seem to be able to do nothing to interrupt it's execution. If I executed (loop) in REPL, I can do sly-interrupt, but that trick doesn't work with sly-eval-defun. Help please?
<Josh_2>
mrcom: Okay deleted!
<Josh_2>
That was me clutching at straws again
<mrcom>
Josh_2: The SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS doesn't do anything, either. It's locking around the metaclass's slots, not the instance's.
<Josh_2>
it was working before I messed with compute-slots
<nirved>
VincentVega: M-x slime-interrupt
<nirved>
VincentVega: there should be a binding for it as well
<nirved>
(keyboard binding)
<mrcom>
Josh_2: Don't... think so. You were probably seeing the lock messages, but that was while the class was being created.
<mrcom>
s/the class/METALOCK class/
<VincentVega>
nirved: that's the thing, sly-interrupt doesn't work in this situation (btw I am using sly but it's based on slime)
<nirved>
well, slime works
<Josh_2>
mrcom: well I guess thats just another issue
<Josh_2>
right now I can't even make instances of my cool new class :(
<mrcom>
Don't think you need the EFFECTIVE-SLOT-DEFINITION-CLASS or DIRECT-SLOT-DEFINITION-CLASS method redefintions either, since they should already return the standard classes.
<mrcom>
Josh_2: Yeah, I'm just running down the code eliminating stuff that _isn't_ the problem.
<_death>
VincentVega: when you evaluate it in a lisp buffer, a thread is created to evaluate the form.. you need to interrupt the right thread
<VincentVega>
nirved: oh, crap, I was trying to interrupt in the repl window, while I had to call it from the buffer window, so yes it works!
<VincentVega>
_death: I see now!
<VincentVega>
wasn't aware of this
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<Josh_2>
oh
<Josh_2>
mrcom: well I got rid of that and now it worked
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<Josh_2>
It's not exactly what I expected though..
<mrcom>
Looking up the docs for those methods...
<Josh_2>
oh wait I fixed it
<Josh_2>
Yes it works!!
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<mrcom>
Hooray!
<Josh_2>
it works with just c2mop as well!
<Josh_2>
for portability haha
<mrcom>
And I think it was a problem because EFFECTIVE-SLOT-DEFINITION class returns STANDARD-effective-slot-definition, not effective-slot-definition (again, a virtual class which isn't supposed to be instantiated.)
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<mrcom>
OK, I'm surprised C2MOP works here.
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<mrcom>
Oh, no I'm not. It's CLOSER-MOP. Duh.
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<mrcom>
Yes, you are correct, using closer-mop is portable. It resolves to the SB-MOP calls on SBCL.
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<Josh_2>
mrcom: I really appreciate all your help!!
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<mrcom>
Josh_2: Why thank you! Enjoyed it, and learned a bit myself.
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<Josh_2>
Now I need to create a special slot to contain my lock list
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<mrcom>
Josh_2: All hail Josh_2!
* Duuqnd
bows down to the MOP master
<Duuqnd>
s/to/for
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<Josh_2>
xD
<Josh_2>
Perhaps I could develop my toy into something actually useful for developing parallel applications
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<mrcom>
Josh_2: Here's a challenge for you: Given an instance X of FOO, a METALOCK class, and (SETF (FOO-SLOT1 X) 42 (FOO-SLOT2 X) 99)
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<mrcom>
Josh_2: In another thread, make (CONS (FOO-SLOT1 X) (FOO-SLOT2 X)) always return either (42 . 99) or the pre-SETF values.
<Alfr_>
mrcom, and when he's done with that you could just add a slot for a similarly interesting problem, repeat. I think, the underlying problem is that individual atomic operations just don't compose well.
<Alfr_>
s/compose/concatenate/
<mrcom>
Ah, spoilers!
<Alfr_>
Sorry.
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<mrcom>
I was just being facetious. It won't really dawn on him until he's worked it out himself.
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<Josh_2>
mrcom: I'm aware of the issue
<Josh_2>
pjb has already been through this with me when I have talked about making this kinda metaclass before
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<sveit>
hello. does the maintainer/anyone familiar with the internals of the series package hang out here?
<sveit>
i have found several bugs that i would appreciate advice on how to begin attacking (as well i would love to discuss the package in general). i have also "fixed" a bug that seemed too trivial/actively introduced to have as simple a fix (deleting a line) as it did, and would like to know if i made an oversight before submitting.
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<fe[nl]ix>
sveit: I believe Series has been abandoned for a couple of decades
<Josh_2>
sveit: sounds like you are the new maintainer ;)
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<sveit>
well thanks for the update :) i am surprised, imo it is a great idea, and a great demonstration of something that could really only be done in lisp
<sveit>
if people have free time, writing non-trivial code and looking at the series macroexpansions/optimizations is pretty remarkable. except for the bugs :)
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<sveit>
anyway, if anyone has looked at it before or knows of similar code and has general wisdom i'd like to hear it, since series is written in a somewhat haphazard way.
<sveit>
actually if it is abandoned i assume people have alternative libraries that they use to accomplish similar things?
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<jasom>
sveit: loop? :P
<fwoaroof[m]>
I usually end up using LOOP for this sort of thing
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<fwoaroof[m]>
I've also implemented clojure-style transducers for a kind of explicit stream-fusion approach
<fwoaroof[m]>
I like this better than series-style stream fusion, because it's not as dependent on "magic" compile-time transformations
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<sveit>
the problem with loop is "reusability" and "composition"; it is kind of tricky/impossible to have some independent looping constructs that can be combined in a generator style. the idea of series is (imo) to provide this while having loop-style performance when the computation is actually built up