<drmeister>
Do you mean low pause times? Ravenbrook has done work to guarantee that any pause time is less than a user defined time limit.
<fwoaroof[m]>
(I had some significant performance/stability improvements switching to Shenandoah in a JVM application I work on)
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<fwoaroof[m]>
Yeah
<fwoaroof[m]>
Ideally "pauseless"
<drmeister>
No - I don't think it's that. I don't have a lot of experience running it. I have a great deal of experience programming with it and debugging it.
<drmeister>
I look forward to spending more time running it. (sigh)
<fwoaroof[m]>
As far as startup time goes, isn't the party line "who stops their repl?"
* drmeister
never gets invited to those kind of parties.
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<drmeister>
(snort)
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<drmeister>
dim: Don't be surprised though that clasp is slower than sbcl.
<drmeister>
We just added type inference and we are making progress in improving performance - but sbcl still beats us.
<drmeister>
Some sbcl developer sold their soul to the devil - I'm sure.
<drmeister>
What I mean is that sbcl has an extremely impressive compiler - it's fast and generates fast code. But we all know that.
<edgar-rft>
I'm not so sure that the devil will *pay* something for sbcl develper's souls.
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<p_l>
edgar-rft: he does during the regular poker game?
* p_l
ducks
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<edgar-rft>
p_l: I'm not entirely sure but I think the GPL says that the devil gets your sould for free.
<emacsomancer>
GPL says that the devil is free to copy and share your soul
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<p_l>
so long as he accepts the brand
<p_l>
on any change to the soul he does
<p_l>
edgar-rft: at least you don't need to sell your soul to the devil to make a clean from source compile of SBCL
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<p_l>
as far as I know, that's not the case for its progenitor
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<sm2n>
good night ;)
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<iissaacc>
howdy
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<beach>
Hello iissaacc.
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<edgar-rft>
where's jacob?
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<jdz>
dim: My guess would be that SBCL has a fixed heap size, but CCL will dig into RAM until it is exhausted.
<jdz>
But I also like memory behavior of CCL better than SBCL, although having software with no upper bound to memory consumption is questionable.
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<aeth>
Doesn't SBCL have a fixed default, like 1 GB or something (the manpage says it's platform-dependent)? Depending on what you're doing, you might prefer if it sets the starting heap based on total RAM instead, even though you can't adjust it later. There might be a way. "--dynamic-space-size <megabytes>" if that's launched from a shell script, there's probably something you can put inside of a $() to come up with a reasonable value.
<aeth>
Of course, if that's already done, then something else is up.
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<luis>
aeth: somewhat surprisingly, the GC will automatically use more space proportionally to the dynamic space size, so you're not just increasing the upper bound but also the lower bound (average bound? something like that)
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<p_l>
SBCL on amd64 has default dynamic space size of 8GB. CCL on the same platform uses default dynamic space of 512GB
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<phoe>
2009 was two years ago
<luis>
time flies
<beach>
Time flies like an arrow.
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<pve>
Good morning! As part of a dogfooding exercise, I've made a simple linked list class, and now I'm looking at the output from sb-sprof and I'm wondering if someone could help me interpret it.
<pve>
is it so that the top 7 are related to method dispatch?
<beach>
I am not an expert, but it looks that way to me. SBCL generic dispatch is apparently not that great.
<pve>
beach: thank you
<pve>
and ouch
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<beach>
SBCL uses PCL which was designed at a time when a memory access had roughly the same cost as a register operation, so table-driven techniques seemed appropriate at the time.
<jdz>
To me it seems the offending one is number 15, and the next number 8.
<jdz>
Although on a second look I think I'm wrong.
<beach>
Isn't the "Total" every sample that had this thing on the stack?
<beach>
I looked into this recently.
<beach>
I think I made the same mistake you did.
<pve>
jdz: yes, it's a merge sort I'm profiling, so I would expect that to be high
<jdz>
beach: Right, that seems to be the case for me, as well. Not profiling my code often enough.
<beach>
I know what you mean.
<jdz>
(On the bright side - the code is fast enough most of the time.)
<jdz>
pve: Also do two consecutive profiling runs show the same picture?
<jdz>
In the same image, of course.
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<pve>
jdz: hmm, yeah looks pretty similar
<jdz>
That's good, then, meaning effective methods have been computed.
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<pve>
CL:SORT on a list is about a 100x faster :)
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<pve>
beach: are table-driven techniques not appropriate anymore?
<pve>
or rather, what are the alternatives?
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<beach>
pve: That's correct, they are no longer appropriate. SICL generic dispatch compares a register to small constants, so the entire dispatch remains inside the processor.
<beach>
Great! If you have any questions, feel free to ask. #sicl might be more appropriate depending on the level of detail.
<pve>
will do
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<dim>
jdz: typical memory usage of pgloader using CCL is ~400MB during a whole load, whereas it would exhaust a 4GB heap on SBCL with the same operation
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<ldb>
good evening
<beach>
Hello ldb.
<ldb>
beach: I'm reading the generic-dispatch paper. Does "immediate object" indicates that it is limited to certain data can be fit into a register?
<beach>
If you give me the page reference, I'll tell you.
<phoe>
beach: beginning of chapter 3
<ldb>
beach: it's on page 3, section 3's first line
<phoe>
"A SICL object is either an immediate object or a heap object."
<beach>
Yes, correct.
<phoe>
so if I read this correctly, this means fixnums, #+64bit single-floats, characters, and such
<beach>
In SICL, only fixnums, characters, and single-floats are immediate objects.
<phoe>
oh, okay
<ldb>
ok, thank you for explaination
<beach>
Pleasure.
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<pve>
beach: I've also read the paper, very interesting.. at some point I may want to think about how the dispatch is done in this little language I'm working on
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<beach>
pve: Glad you liked it.
<pve>
it's a bit simpler, in that methods "belong to classes" like in smalltalk, and they only specialize on the recipient of the message (i.e. "self")
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<phoe>
one option is to defer dispatch to the host CLOS and wait for that host CLOS to become good/fast enough
<pve>
so every method is like (defmethod foo ((self myclass) a b c) ...)
<beach>
pve: I see. That's known as "single dispatch"
<pve>
phoe: that's how it's done now
<pve>
beach: yes
<beach>
So, I have a theory that C++ dispatch could be made faster if it used my technique. Currently, they try very hard to use a table-driven approach using so-called VTABLEs.
<beach>
And I think when they have multiple inheritance, the tables must be nested, so that should result in several memory accesses.
<beach>
But I don't know how deep into the standard this VTABLE business goes.
<beach>
... and I'm not about to find out. :)
<dlowe>
the vtables aren't nested because they're static
<dlowe>
all the resolution for the type is done at compile type
<dlowe>
*time
<beach>
That would be very sad for so-called virtual methods.
<jackdaniel>
it is. this approach makes writing c++ class extensions as dynamically loaded libraries not feasible at all
<beach>
"it is", i.e., "sad"?
<jackdaniel>
yes
<dlowe>
they're "v"tables only to support so-called virtual methods. Non-virtual methods are resolved according to declared type, ignoring the type of the object
<ldb>
few languages make use of runtime dyanamic loading/linking
<dlowe>
anyway, it's a sad state.
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<jackdaniel>
ldb: but C and C++ make use of it, and they are fairly popular. only dispatch in C++ is crooked with this regard
<fwoaroof[m]>
If you declare a method virtual in C++, it's dynamically resolved, right?
<fwoaroof[m]>
(It's been a long time, and I see C++ developers complain about virtual methods all the time these days)
<beach>
What are the complaints based on?
<fwoaroof[m]>
I think it's a combination of dynamic dispatch being slow and dynamic dispatch makes control flow confusing
<fwoaroof[m]>
But, I don't really follow the C++ community all that much :)
<beach>
Yeah, me neither. But given the table-driven dispatch, it might be slow in the eyes of a C++ programmer.
<beach>
But it was my impression that virtual methods and dynamic dispatch (which some people here say doesn't exist anymore) was one of the mechanisms required for the OO style that C++ recommends.
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<dra>
beach: Who says dynamic dispatch doesn't exist anymore?
<beach>
<dlowe> all the resolution for the type is done at compile time.
<beach>
I don't believe it, but this is not the right forum to discuss C++ and its implementations, so I did not protest too much.
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<jackdaniel>
"Since C++ does not support late binding, the virtual table in a C++ object cannot be modified at run-time, which limits the potential set of dispatch targets to a finite set chosen at compile time. "
<jackdaniel>
that's a relevant part of the description of a dynamic dispatch in c++
<dra>
Regardless, dynamic dispatch would go through the table indirection.
<dra>
Or through branches, i.e. "switchpatching".
<beach>
Limiting it to a finite set sounds different from "all resolution is done at compile time"
<dra>
So it's instruction cache vs. branch prediction. Not that it generally matters much anyway.
<fwoaroof[m]>
Sorry, I was talking about style guides discouraging virtual methods
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<dra>
But you're right, this is #lisp, and
<beach>
But I am not going to participate any further in this discussion. It is off topic, and I need to go start dinner anyway.
<jackdaniel>
uhm, at least this "finite set" is what I've meant when I said that it is indeed sad and that you can't extend it by loading .so libraries
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<dra>
... I'll just do a (typecase ..). ;)
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<Josh_2>
Hi
<sjl_>
This should work and return (1 nil 2 nil) right? (loop :with (a b) = '(1) :for (c d) = '(2) :do (return (list a b c d)))
<sjl_>
> During loop expansion, each variable in the variable list is matched with the values in the values list. If there are more variables in the variable list than there are values in the values list, the remaining variables are given a value of nil.
<fwoaroof[m]>
I think so
<sjl_>
It works like I expect in SBCL and CCL, but signals an error in ECL and ABCL. Am I misreading the spec?
<fwoaroof[m]>
It works that way in LispWorks too
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<sjl_>
It works as I expect in clisp too.
<easye>
Apparently a bug in ABCL.
* jackdaniel
pretends that he does not see the discussion
* fwoaroof[m]
looks at jackdaniel
<sjl_>
lol
* jackdaniel
looks at fwoaroof[m]
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<scymtym>
jackdaniel: quick, check SICL loop. maybe it behaves like ECL and ABCL. you can still get a majority
<scymtym>
oh, lispworks. only a tie then
<fwoaroof[m]>
I think it's 4 work like sbcl and 2 not?
<fwoaroof[m]>
clisp too
* scymtym
goes back to something that does not involve counting
<sjl_>
I don't have allegro or clasp on this machine to check those
<easye>
sjl_: According to the CLHS paragraph you quoted, the references should clearly by NIL.
<jackdaniel>
;)
<sjl_>
jackdaniel: thanks, sorry to give you more work, hah
* jackdaniel
walks away while pretending that he does not hurry to be faster than easye with the fix
<sjl_>
easye: yeah that was my reading. But two unrelated implementations having the same behavior made me second guess myself
<easye>
Don'y worry, anybody would be faster than me.
<jackdaniel>
well, using destructuring-bind is the most obvious choice for destructuring
<easye>
Maybe we should just use SICL's LOOP to get around these issues.
<sjl_>
It would be convenient if it destructured like destructuring-bind, but that would complicate the (loop for (a b c) of-type (integer integer float) in ...) type declaration syntax I guess
<sjl_>
so it's not as full-featured as full d-b
<jackdaniel>
easye: "just" using sicl's loop is buying into a strategy, where you bootstrap from fully-features common lisp - that is a fine strategy, but not something automatically agreeable. I think that sicl's loop implementation requires working loop implementation
<jackdaniel>
s/fully-features/fully-featured/
<easye>
jackdaniel: Aw.
<jackdaniel>
you may always replace abcl's loop /after/ everything is built, so you have your old loop for building abcl, and this new loop for users
<jackdaniel>
adopting first class global environments will allow even switching loop implementation by the user without breaking the implementation internals
<jackdaniel>
but still doing all that is not the most obvious thing to do where it comes to fixing a bug ;)
<sjl_>
jackdaniel: for 100% clarity, in the issue you linked, it should work for both WITH and FOR
<sjl_>
not just WITH
<jackdaniel>
right, I'll better add that to not forget to check
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<sjl_>
No idea if with/for are implemented by the same code or not, so might be worth checking both.
<jackdaniel>
true, I'll also add both checks to ansi-tests
<sjl_>
(This also isn't super important to me, I can easily work around it.)
<jackdaniel>
I understand, that makes that even more commendable that you've reported it ,-)
<fwoaroof[m]>
I tend to care about this sort of issue, because it's the sort of thing that prevents me from using the libraries I like in LispWorks
<jackdaniel>
I have non-computer thigns to do now, so see you o/
<fwoaroof[m]>
(i.e. non-conforming assumptions)
<fwoaroof[m]>
s/assumptions/implementations/
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<ferada>
hiya, anyone worked with commonqt/qtools/... and possibly has an example of subclassing/delegates usage (e.g. for custom listview elements)?
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<fwoaroof[m]>
Shinmera has some examples in their github account
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<ferada>
fwoaroof[m]: would you know which package?
<fwoaroof[m]>
The other options are all built around OpenGL GUI libraries
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<fwoaroof[m]>
Or, if you can afford it/are willing to pay, CAPI
<fwoaroof[m]>
https://gitlab.com/eql/EQL5 maybe too, it's embedding strategy seems more stable to me than attempts to FFI
<fwoaroof[m]>
The sad truth is, not many people care about native GUIs anymore
<fwoaroof[m]>
90% of new GUI tools are web applications embedded in Electron or similar
<ferada>
true enough
<fwoaroof[m]>
And that's if they don't just make you go to a web app in a browser
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<fwoaroof[m]>
There's some valiant efforts to maintain GUI toolkits in the various programming language communities, but there's little money or thanks in that effort
<ferada>
sad that it's so inefficient
<fwoaroof[m]>
And the big toolkits that do exist (Cocoa, Gtk, QT, Flutter) are actively hostile to using non-approved languages
<ferada>
well i'd wish to have more resources to dedicate to native ui, but time's limited isn't it
<ferada>
they're hostile to users too ...
<ferada>
anyway, thanks for the links
<fwoaroof[m]>
(I believe the Gtk developers, for example, explicitly have said something like "we don't care about non-Gnome use cases"
<ferada>
certainly time better spent than more ffi wrangling
<jackdaniel>
there is #clim channel
<jackdaniel>
if you have questions
<jackdaniel>
or suggestions of course
<ferada>
will do will do
<fwoaroof[m]>
I like CLIM, I wish it worked nicely on macs :(
<luna_is_here>
Yeah... It is the decline of the desktop application. 10 years ago every language had bindings to all major GUI toolkits.
<luna_is_here>
The good news is: People are now used to Web-Apps and do not care soooo much about native apps anymore.
<jackdaniel>
it is not good news that you need a program bigger than your operating system (resource-wise) to run an hello world application
<luna_is_here>
Well...
<jackdaniel>
s/an/a/
<jackdaniel>
and by "that" program I mean a web browser
<luna_is_here>
It means that people are used to things that behave like web-apps.
<luna_is_here>
Hence... All you need is a good theme for your app.
<luna_is_here>
It does not have to be native.
<luna_is_here>
It just have to look "modern" to be acceptable.
<fwoaroof[m]>
Mostly, people don't know how nice their computing experience could be
<fwoaroof[m]>
Everyone's used to bloated, un-integrated web apps these days
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<luna_is_here>
Thus, having a modern theme for McCLIM might get you 95% of the way of a modern GUI in lisp, IMHO.
<luna_is_here>
jackdaniel: I am also not a fan of Electron bloatware...
<jackdaniel>
it is not about electron, I'm more concerned that my computer which is many times faster than my computer in 2000 feels actually slower ^_^
<fwoaroof[m]>
I got a lot of compliments about a CAPI app I wrote on the side for some stuff at work
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<fwoaroof[m]>
Out of the box, native apps on a Mac look good and work mostly as users expect them too
<luna_is_here>
Depends on the expectations... I usually find MacOS apps quite ill-behaving. But, that is a matter of taste, I guess.
<fwoaroof[m]>
The point is they work like each other
<fwoaroof[m]>
If you don't like that, use something else :)
<luna_is_here>
I know. But there is also a certain consistency between web-apps and people these days are used to that.
<luna_is_here>
Anyways, I know what you mean. I also prefer applications that are well integrated into my desktop.
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<luna_is_here>
The question, however, is. Is it worth the extra effort, for example, for a language community to maintain bindings to all native GUIs and maybe a cross-platfrom toolkit on top.
<luna_is_here>
Especially, when most people, these days, do not care.
<fwoaroof[m]>
Programmers pretty clearly care, though
<fwoaroof[m]>
Especially programmers that are interested in niche languages
<fwoaroof[m]>
"What GUI toolkit should I use" is a very common question in Lisp/Haskell/Rust
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<luna_is_here>
That they ask for any GUI toolkit does not mean that they care for a native one.
<luna_is_here>
I have not said nobody cares about making GUI apps anymore.
<luna_is_here>
And that this question pops up so frequently, probably means that there is currently no satisfying answer in all of these languages.
<fwoaroof[m]>
Depends on what you mean by "native", but they often explicitly don't want a web frontend
<luna_is_here>
A am not arguing for using a web frontend.
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<jasom>
11:05:07 luna_is_here | The good news is: People are now used to Web-Apps and do not care soooo much about native apps anymore.
<luna_is_here>
I have explained what I mean by that in my messages after that one.
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<luna_is_here>
With non-native, I do not mean web apps.
<jasom>
The problem is most non-native toolkits look more like win95 than like web-apps.
<luna_is_here>
[19:58:55] <luna_is_here> Thus, having a modern theme for McCLIM might get you 95% of the way of a modern GUI in lisp, IMHO.
<luna_is_here>
jasom: That is my point.
<jasom>
you also need it to work on something other than X11 though; last I checked McCLIM didn't have a great story there.
<fwoaroof[m]>
I believe there's some support for windows now
<luna_is_here>
jasom: What do you mean by "it"?
<jasom>
luna_is_here: McCLIM
<Xach>
anyway, i stumbled across that because P.T. Withington worked for Laszlo Systems, and they had a GUI system designed around declarative constraints that I always found very interesting, but it petered out in the market.
<Xach>
and i can remember "P.T. Withington" but not "OpenLaszlo" the product, so looking it up is always an adventure...
<luna_is_here>
jasom: I see.
<fwoaroof[m]>
My dad spoke highly of Laszlo
<fwoaroof[m]>
It was always too tied to flash for me to get excited
<Xach>
the final versions were targeted at html5
<Xach>
too little, too late perhaps
<Xach>
but P.T. also worked in the lisp world for a long time before that
<luna_is_here>
Does this GTK+ server thing still exist?
<luna_is_here>
I have experienced it to break often for that reason.
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<luna_is_here>
Or look quite ugly.
<fwoaroof[m]>
I want my GUIs to fit in, mostly
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<fwoaroof[m]>
The macOS demo there is what a GUI application should look like on a mac
<luna_is_here>
The arrangement of a set of native widgets might look good on one platform, while the same arrangement can look terribel on another.
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<luna_is_here>
*terrible
<fwoaroof[m]>
Yeah, that's hard to avoid, though: you basically just have to separate view/logic and pick the view based on the platform
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<luna_is_here>
So, you just write the GUI n times.
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<jasom>
separating view from logic can become complicated what happens when you hit the "up" arrow on a spinner that has a logical maximum value? Is the maximum value told to the view by the logic, or does the logic intercept the "up" event and decline to increment? Different GUI toolkits may prefer one way over the other
<jasom>
oops; missed some punctuation after "complicated"
<fwoaroof[m]>
yeah
<fwoaroof[m]>
The other option is to pick a platform and limit your audience
<jasom>
or implement a thin-client in N toolkits (and then usually ~N languages)
<luna_is_here>
Now it depends on your audience, whether the audience cares for a native app. ;)
<fwoaroof[m]>
But, there isn't really a good option here: electron/OpenGL GUIs just look wrong and often break OS features, multiple frontends is a maintenance burden and picking a platform restricts your audience
<fwoaroof[m]>
Me, I pay for LispWorks and just write Mac apps :)
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<fwoaroof[m]>
But, I'd pay LispWorks for access to a CI environment for building my apps for distribution on Linux/Windows
<Xach>
that seems like a sensible option
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<luna_is_here>
Does LispWorks has an Android GUI?
<jasom>
I don't currently own a mac, but when I did, ltk made "not terrible" apps and tk was pre-installed on macs. Not sure if either/both of those are true anymore. Now that multiplatform implies at least iOS, I'm not certain there is any CL solution for GUIs anymore.
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<luna_is_here>
Btw. TK has native widgets, too.
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<Xach>
there's a dangerous uncanny valley of native
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<aeth>
Time freezes when you join here, so 2009 was 3 years ago, not 2.
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<dlowe>
Is mocl still active? That supported iOS, IIRC
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<jasom>
dlowe: last I heard someone tried to contac the devs with no answer
<fwoaroof[m]>
Xach: no, only a mobile runtime
<fwoaroof[m]>
Sorry, that was for luna_is_here
<fwoaroof[m]>
It's the most annoying bit: CAPI supports desktop well, mobile not at all
<luna_is_here>
I see.
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<markasoftware>
Is it possible for multiple classes to have the same symbol as a name?
<markasoftware>
my intuition says no
<Bike>
markasoftware: they can have the same name, but the symbol in the environment can only refer to one class, i.e. find-class returns only one thing.