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<esthlos>
heya, I want to make an array containing a bunch of bit vectors which are not eq (different memory locations). how can I do this without much pain?
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<Bike>
just... make an array and put the bit vectors in
<Bike>
i don't know what eqness has to do with it
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<esthlos>
Bike: if I change a bit in one of the vectors with setf, I don't want it to change in every vector
<Bike>
sure
<Bike>
no problem
<Bike>
let me guess: you're doing something like (make-array n :initial-element (make-array m :element-type 'bit ...))?
<esthlos>
oh, I see what you're saying
<esthlos>
yes
<Bike>
make-array is just a normal function, so it's arguments are evaluated normally
<esthlos>
I was hoping there was a way to have :initial-element call every time
<Bike>
it doesn't reevaluate the initial-element argument for each entry
<esthlos>
gotcha
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<esthlos>
thanks
<Bike>
no problemo
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<Xach>
map-into is handy there
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<esthlos>
Bike: is there a way, then, to get around make-array warning that the type is incorrect when calling make-array?
<esthlos>
sbcl is initializing the elements to 0
<Bike>
what's your sbcl version?
<Bike>
(lisp-implementation-version)
<esthlos>
1.4.4
<equwal>
OLD
<esthlos>
aw shit
<equwal>
Get 1.4.9
<Bike>
yeah i think that's a bug they fixed
<Bike>
or something
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<esthlos>
Xach: map-into also helpful, thx
<esthlos>
Bike: btw, are you lispm.de guy?
<esthlos>
(or maybe his bike?)
<Xach>
esthlos: lispm does not visit here.
<Bike>
i don't know what that is and i'm not german
<Bike>
so probably not
<Xach>
rainer "lispm" joswig
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<esthlos>
Xach: i owe you some monies for your website
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<equwal>
Don't we all.
<Xach>
so many picodollars
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<Bike>
new sbcl still has the warning
<Bike>
annoying
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<equwal>
You can always do the muffle warnings thing.
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<equwal>
nevermind
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<equwal>
Foobar_ hi?
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<LdBeth[m]>
esthlos: use a loop to setf each slots?
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<iqubic>
Has anyone tried the NEXT browser that jmercouris is working on?
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<equwal>
I have it cloned, been thinking about starting it up.
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<equwal>
Looks pretty neat, definitely better than w3m which I use for most of my non-firefox browing.
<iqubic>
DO you run Linux? I run linux and I'm not sure I want to go through the pain of getting it to work.
<equwal>
I'll just start it up and review it now I guess, I'm used to compiling stuff from source at this point.
<iqubic>
I run linux and I'm not sure how to build this properly.
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<equwal>
Have you read the readme?
<iqubic>
not yet.
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<equwal>
Probably do that first lol.
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<figurelisp>
why do people call javascript same as lisp? in what sense they are talking about and is that true?
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<equwal>
potential troll?
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<equwal>
Anyway I couldn't get it working, looks a bit out of date for my SBCL 1.4.9.
<mange>
I don't think anyone would say that Javascript is the same as Lisp, but people often want to claim that it's very "Scheme-y". I think the biggest thing that lets people claim that is first-class functions.
<brettgilio>
equwal: What distro are you on? My sbcl is only 1.4.8
<equwal>
Well I compiled from source the latest.
<brettgilio>
oh good, nvm. Arch has it marked out of date
<brettgilio>
1.4.9 is in testing
<drewc>
figurelisp: because people from C++ and Java think Lisp is functional, and think ECMAscript is as well.
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<equwal>
brettgilio: Arch probably has 1.4.9 pre-compiled in their testing repo, and if so you shouldn't use that repo on stable. You will eventually break stuff doing that. Instead, you compile from source.
<beach>
figurelisp: Lots of people would like to think that their language is some Lisp dialect. But since "Lisp" is not well defined (as opposed to Common Lisp), it is meaningless and can't be checked or refuted. Luckily, this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so we don't have debates like that.
<equwal>
But it so obviously isn't a lisp that I just assumed he was trolling.
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<beach>
equwal: Like I said, Lisp is not well defined, so it is not obvious to some people. But since this channel is about Common Lisp, we don't have to decide one way or the other.
<figurelisp>
ok got it.
<brettgilio>
equwal: Yes, I said that before you mentioned it ;)
<figurelisp>
oh you called me a troll? I thought you were calling those people troll equwal
<beach>
Good morning everyone! by the way.
<equwal>
If it was a genuine question then the answer is no, it isn't a lisp, but it does have some vaguely functional things like lambdas.
<figurelisp>
understood :)
<equwal>
I love it when people say good morning to me at 20:34.
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<drewc>
figurelisp: from that link: 'JavaScript also isn’t Lisp as people who write Lisp use the word. Agree or disagree, the “Lisp Community” has coalesced around Common Lisp. Anything that doesn’t harken back to MacLisp is considered not-Lisp by experts. You know, Scheme looks a lot like a Lisp-1 to everyone else, but hard-core Lispers will tell you that Scheme isn’t Lisp and that the only thing it has in common with Lisp is CONS'
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<equwal>
Can we find any specific source who claims that Scheme isn't a lisp? At the very least, its inventors definitely considered it a lisp.
<drewc>
FWIW, I now write primarily in a scheme dialect, and I do not call it Lisp, it's scheme! :)
<beach>
equwal: Can you please stop it!
<beach>
equwal: What part of "Lisp is not well defined" is not clear?
<equwal>
Sorry I upset you.
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<equwal>
Time to go. Good morning!
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<LdBeth[m]>
figurelisp: ECMAScript is officially declared as Lisp inspired language.
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<beach>
LdBeth[m]: Are you doing this on purpose?
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<aeth>
*The* point of Lisp is that you use macros on top of s-expressions. Common Lisp is the common Lisp, replacing all of the historic Lisps except Emacs Lisp. Any new approach (including Scheme, which changed a lot in r4rs, r5rs, etc.) has its own channel, and Emacs Lisp has its own channel. The only useful thing to talk about here is practical Common Lisp problems. Very few people want to talk about language families.
<aeth>
There is a ##lisp for the Lisp family. It's a pretty dead channel. Even #scheme is pretty quiet and mostly used by people implementing Schemes, doing academic Scheme exercises, or trying to write portable Scheme libraries.
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<aeth>
Common Lisp is the subject here not for deep philosophical reasons but because Common Lisp is a useful thing to talk about and much more useful than "is X a Lisp?", which probably belongs in ##lisp or #lispcafe
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<JuanDaugherty>
that seems to imply some kind of questionable altruism as opposed to that common lisp just needs a dedicated channel
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<aeth>
JuanDaugherty: What I mean is: Does Common Lisp deserve "#lisp"? It does because it's far more active than Lisp-family discussions would be on an IRC channel.
<JuanDaugherty>
well it's effectively squatted it aggressively so it's a moot discussion at this point. The most you can do is try to fluff up ##lisp or go to another network
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<JuanDaugherty>
or kill the CL monoglots
<JuanDaugherty>
i just discovered cl-containers surprised I haven't heard of it before
<JuanDaugherty>
(if in fact I haven't)
<JuanDaugherty>
gotta be something wrong with something that looks so useful
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<JuanDaugherty>
CL is slightly older than irc, so I imagine it was an initial condition
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<shka1>
really?
<JuanDaugherty>
and freenode is only about 20
<shka1>
i thought that irc is from 80s
<JuanDaugherty>
if you date CL from 89 or so
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<shka1>
i date CL from publication of ANSI standard
<JuanDaugherty>
although i remember hearing of it before that
<JuanDaugherty>
yeah that's what I mean Cltl I
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<JuanDaugherty>
it was already a thing, if not that much of one, when I learned smalltalk in '85
<shka1>
ok
<shka1>
i was not even born back then :-)
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<JuanDaugherty>
first I heard of irc was c. '95/6 but i think it was not new then
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<JuanDaugherty>
yeah wiki says 88 for irc, i'm pretty sure golden hill was selling something they called CL before that
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<JuanDaugherty>
surprised because you'd think that much functionality in one box (cl-containers) would get more play
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<JuanDaugherty>
s/surprised/suspicious/
<shka1>
JuanDaugherty: i seen cl-containers before
<JuanDaugherty>
did you use it?
<JuanDaugherty>
(other than ql'ing)
<shka1>
i don't like the API
<JuanDaugherty>
ah
<shka1>
LIL is better
<shka1>
but poorly documented
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<shka1>
and very complex in places
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<JuanDaugherty>
it's MOP heavy
<shka1>
yup
<shka1>
anyway, i just made my own container library
<shka1>
it is not all that feature rich, but since i made it myself i find it conceptually optimal
<shka1>
at the very least it includes D style ranges
<shka1>
so you can actually write portable algorithms
<shka1>
I also added improvised generator that constructs a range
<JuanDaugherty>
i see the virtue of it, LIL is just containers, cl-containers has stuff, the stuff I thought was useful
<shka1>
probably the best thing i ever done in lisp :P
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<shka1>
oh, it is useful
<JuanDaugherty>
stuff in the containers
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<shka1>
cl-containers has OK code, it's just it does not feel like it belongs to the XXI century
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<shka1>
but that's just my opinion
<JuanDaugherty>
and that's bad?
<JuanDaugherty>
in lisp?
<shka1>
it is a matter of opinion
<shka1>
and it is just my impression of it
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<JuanDaugherty>
i can't think of any computing culture where old stuff is more useful, accepted, tolerated, etc, than common lisp
<JuanDaugherty>
fortran I guess
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<shka1>
oh, i accept it alright
<JuanDaugherty>
and congrats on being born before me, now see if you can survive me
<shka1>
it is just i don't like it that much :D
<shka1>
it is useful, if you need it, use it
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<shka1>
JuanDaugherty: challenge accepted? :D
<JuanDaugherty>
:)
<shka1>
anyway, what I really want to do with my project is to construct set of reasonable interfaces that can act as bridge
<shka1>
so it is only natural that i find LIL more interesting
<shka1>
even though it is a little bit to complex and lacks some elements
<JuanDaugherty>
a bridget to what?
<JuanDaugherty>
*bridge
<shka1>
between data and algorithms in a essence
<JuanDaugherty>
ah
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<shka1>
for instance, between training neural network and data stored on disk
<shka1>
also, being able to write pseudo-sql with group-by is quite nice option
<JuanDaugherty>
i do see why now, other reasons occurred and the main thing I wanted to know, that it works you answered, ty
<shka1>
sure
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<ym>
Is there a way to IPC with firefox?
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<beach>
ym: Is that a Common Lisp question?
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<ym>
I hope so.
<ym>
But reading some mail-lists makes me doubt.
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<beach>
What's the relation? I mean Firefox is not a Common Lisp program as far as I know, and I suppose IPC means inter-process communication, and that's quite general.
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<ym>
I want to get current page URL and some meta-data from firefox without StumpWM kludges, but seems like the most convenient way is to get hands dirty with JS or to use Emacs's w3, so never mind.
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<ym>
Wow. Just found Common Lisp WebKit-based web browser!
<ym>
Just what I need.
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<shka>
ym: :-)
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<phoe>
Hey hi
<phoe>
and good morning
<shka>
phoe: good morning to you
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<dim>
thanks Norvig for PAIP now being available on GitHub, it makes linking to references from the book much easier ;-)
<dim>
(today reference: the data-driven programming technique)
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<shka>
cool
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<zigpaw>
I wonder if there is a library that would allow easy pattern matching for function parameters in CL based on some of the parameters properties? like fnc1 (arg1 is list with length 1) <body1> ; fnc (arg1 is list with length 2) <body2>, etc...
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<TMA>
zigpaw: DESTRUCTURING-BIND might be a basis for your own library, if you don't find one to your liking
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<shka>
zigpaw: optima?
<shka>
not lambda lists, but mix of MOP, compiler macros and optima should allow you to do everything in this area
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<shka>
it is probabbly two day project
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<dim>
zigpaw: have a look at how Erlang or Ocaml or others do it first?
<jmercouris>
what is the opinion of the lisp community on nesting defuns?
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<jmercouris>
e.g. (defun fish () (defun salmon () (print "I'm a salmon")) (funcall #'salmon))
<jmercouris>
frowned upon? okay practice?
<splittist>
jmercouris: there is no lisp community, but it discourages them.
<splittist>
jmercouris: there are other things for local functions: flet and labels
<jmercouris>
splittist: some reasons why?
<splittist>
defun is for globals
<jmercouris>
Aha
<jmercouris>
I just understood what flet stands for
<jmercouris>
"function let", right?
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<jmercouris>
and these functions defined in an flet, do they share the lexical context of the enclosing defun, for example?
<splittist>
If I understand what you mean, yes. flet and labels differ in terms of recursivity, in the way let and let* do
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<jmercouris>
why isn't it flet, and flet*?
<jmercouris>
what is a label exactly?
<splittist>
my guess is for hysterical raisins.
<splittist>
"labels is equivalent to flet except that the scope of the defined function names for labels encompasses the function definitions themselves as well as the body."
<jmercouris>
hysterical raisins? is that an expression?
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<beach>
jmercouris: Let me also add that nesting DEFUNs probably doesn't mean what you think it might.
<jmercouris>
beach: what do you mean?
<beach>
It doesn't mean that the inner function is local to the outer.
<beach>
And it means that you redefine the inner function in the global environment every time you call the outer function.
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<beach>
jmercouris: Consider the following exercise: start with doing (defun foo (x) (defun bar (y) (+ x y))) at the REPL.
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<jmercouris>
Ok
<beach>
Then try #'bar at the REPL.
<beach>
Notice that it is not defined.
<jmercouris>
shows up as a closure
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<jmercouris>
rather than as a function
<beach>
It should have been undefined, unless you called FOO.
<jmercouris>
I did invoke foo
<beach>
Oh well, too bad.
<jmercouris>
ah, because defun is a macro!
<beach>
No, nothing to do with it.
<jmercouris>
and it doesn't have to eval its arguments
<beach>
Let's do it again...
<jmercouris>
ok I'll restart the repl
<beach>
OK.
<jmercouris>
indeed, undefined
<jmercouris>
but is what I said, also not true?
<jmercouris>
the form within foo doesn't need to be eval'd
<beach>
It is true, but not important in this context.
<beach>
Now try (foo 10) for instance.
<jmercouris>
It returns BAR
<jmercouris>
which makes sense
<beach>
Yes.
<beach>
Now try #'bar.
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<shka>
beach: i think that jmercouris meant to say that defun does not evaluate it's arguments, including &body
<beach>
It is now defined to be a closure,.
<jmercouris>
Indeed, it says closure
<beach>
OK, now the nice thing:...
<shka>
therefore nested defun will be evaluated only after calling outer function
<beach>
jmercouris: Do (defparameter *x* #'bar)
<jmercouris>
shka: that's what I was trying to say
<jmercouris>
Ok, I've done that
<beach>
*x* should be that closure.
<jmercouris>
Indeed it is *x* evals to that
<beach>
Now try (foo 30) for instance.
<jmercouris>
Aha, it has now redfined bar
<beach>
Finally try (eq *x* #'bar)
<jmercouris>
they are not equal
<jmercouris>
so *x* must be the older closure
<beach>
so every time to invoke FOO, you redefine BAR in the global environment.
<beach>
Yes, it is.
<jmercouris>
ah, I can see now, why you wouldn't want to do that
<beach>
Exactly.
<beach>
But the reason for this behavior has nothing to do with the fact that DEFUN is a macro.
<jmercouris>
Right, I was just commenting on the non-existence of bar before invoking foo
<beach>
It has to do with the fact that the DEFUN form has side effects in the global environment, so when it is executed in the body of another DEFUN, those side effects happen each time the outer DEFUN is invoked.
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<beach>
Sure, that part is right.
<jmercouris>
I understand
<jmercouris>
thanks for the explanation
<beach>
Sure.
<jmercouris>
I guess it makes sense that DEFUN has side effects, it is convenient
<jmercouris>
otherwise we'd have to wrap a form within a form to define a global function
<jmercouris>
"global" function, I mean function defined within a package
<beach>
OK, now you are confused again. Packages are no longer involved after READ has done its job.
<jmercouris>
that I did not know
<jmercouris>
okay, I will refrain from assuming until I learn more
<shka>
jmercouris: didn't i link you idiots guide to packages?
<beach>
But DEFUN expands to something like (setf (fdefinition <name>) (lambda ...))
<jmercouris>
shka: I don't believe so
<jmercouris>
(macroexpand-1 '(defun fish (x y) (print x) (print y)))
<beach>
It's a bit more complicated because of what the Common Lisp HyperSpec has to say about top-level forms and the file compiler.
<shka>
worth reading
<shka>
it is good to know how lisp packages work
<shka>
as early as possible
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<jmercouris>
shka: I'll make it my next reading
<shka>
good
<jmercouris>
beach: yes, the expanded form had a few more things in it in sbcl
<beach>
jmercouris: The name FOO is turned into a symbol by READ, and that symbol has a package as reported by SYMBOL-PACKAGE. But all DEFUN does is to define a function in the global environment that has that symbol as its name.
<jmercouris>
I see
<beach>
Packages do not contain functions or variables or anything other than symbols. A package is a slightly complex mapping from names of symbols (i.e. strings) to symbols.
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<beach>
OK, changing the topic here. I realize that not everyone is a compiler expert here, so that I can't ask for help with Cleavir.
<beach>
But, we need to visualize intermediate code (HIR) which is a huge graph even for very modest-size functions. So it would be great if someone would write such a tool using (say) McCLIM. We need to be able so hide parts of the graph, select levels of detail, etc. Any takers?
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<shka>
visulize graphs?
<shka>
or trees?
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<beach>
Arbitrary control and data flow graphs.
<beach>
Yes, we are currently using GraphViz, but it is not interactive and can't be programmed to hide or expose detail.
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<beach>
Plus, it is not written in Common Lisp of course.
<shka>
so basicly interactive graphviz would be fine?
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<beach>
It must be programmable so that it understands the contents of nodes and so that the level of detail can be chosen for each node.
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<beach>
The GraphViz layout algorithm is published work, and it is not too bad for modest-size graphs. And if part of the HIR graph is hidden, that algorithm would work fine I think.
<shka>
so interactive graphviz with set of protocol generic functions that can control the visible structure
<beach>
Sounds right.
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<lieven>
beach: doesn't CLIM come with a graph formatter? I seem to recall the Lispworks version did.
* shka
thinks if he has personal use case for such tool
<jmercouris>
beach: I would suggest using a graph database like neo4j
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<beach>
lieven: It does. But the one we have in McCLIM is very primitive.
<jmercouris>
You can dynamically add and remove nodes, add properties to the nodes etc
<jmercouris>
that way, you don't have to do any of the graph programming yourself, or any of the myriad of graph operations, just add and remove nodes
<jmercouris>
neo4j comes with very good visualization suites, and it would be useful to have a graph database driver for neo4j in CL anyway
<jmercouris>
neo4j also comes with a very nice query language called cypher
<beach>
jmercouris: Yes, I see. I'll look into it.
<jmercouris>
if you are interested in this approach, and in neo4j, I am extremely experienced with it
<beach>
That could come in handy. Thanks for the offer.
<jmercouris>
I would have suggested a different tool, but since you said it has to be dynamic, that is the best I can think of
<jmercouris>
if you are willing to sacrifice dynamically adding and removing nodes, Gephi is pretty nice
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<beach>
Yeah, the graphs can be pretty big and they have both control flow and data flow information, so they can be quite messy. And it is impossible to choose a priori what part of the graph to look at. Hence the interactivity.
<jmercouris>
Oh I see, you don't mean dynamically adding or removing nodes from the graph, but dynamically querying the graph
<jmercouris>
in this case, it is extremely easy to accomplish what you want to do
<beach>
Right, I don't need to modify the graph. Just modify the visibility of groups of nodes and individual nodes.
<jmercouris>
you can query the graph, and modify the visiblity, sort in different ways etc
<jmercouris>
GML is a very easy to use format, and you can have any number of data types within it
<jmercouris>
as in, a node can have many properties, in many different types
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<beach>
I can very easily generate any such syntax.
<jmercouris>
Then it should be no problem!
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<beach>
So the main thing seems to be choosing one of those many programs.
<jmercouris>
Well, Gephi is a good one
<beach>
Well, there is the issue of choosing "data types" for different aspects of the graph of course, but that should not be too hard.
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<jmercouris>
after you've generated the GML file, you can open it up any program anyway
<Bike>
clasp has a hir gml thing already, so that could just be cleaned up and incorporated
<beach>
Bike: Oh. Good.
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<beach>
Bike: What are you using to view the graphs?
<Bike>
i just use graphviz. drmeister has used cytoscape, which i'm unfamiliar with.
<beach>
OK.
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<beach>
Watching a Cytoscape tutorial, I see that it allows the user to modify the graph interactively, including the layout. That doesn't look like stuff we want.
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<Bike>
it's nothing we particularly need, sure
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<beach>
It makes me tired just to think about going through the documentation and tutorials of all those applications.
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<beach>
jmercouris: Our graphs will contain nested functions represented by one ENTER node and one or more RETURN nodes. One thing that I would like to do is to turn such functions into a single blob and examine the details of one at a time. What Gephi functionality allows that?
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<Bike>
doing that with basic blocks would be nice too. of course i imagine we'd have to annotate subgraphs ourselves, but that's no problem
<jmercouris>
beach: I don't understand the question
<beach>
Bike: Sure, yes.
<jmercouris>
you would like to turn multiple nodes into a single blob?
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<jmercouris>
is that correct?
<beach>
Yes, but only for the purpose of viewing.
<beach>
Not modifying the graph.
<jmercouris>
You may cluster them based on some property
<jmercouris>
so if you tag each of those blobs with some Identifier that is the same, you may have their gravity increase and they will overlap each other
<beach>
I would like to click on the enter node and have the nested function turn into a single blob.
<Bike>
shrinking down a subgraph to be a node.
<Bike>
and then unshrinking.
<beach>
Exactly.
<jmercouris>
There must be a way to do it in the UI
<jmercouris>
I'm not looking at the program right now
<beach>
Like Bike says, we can easily stick different "labels" in the nodes, so that each nested function has nodes with different "labels".
<jmercouris>
I can't think of a way to do it in a single click
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<jmercouris>
but I can think of a way to do it in a couple clicks
<schweers>
I have a quick question on CALL-NEXT-METHOD. If I have a method which calls a helper function several times (the helper function is called from several methods, but never from anywhere else). Is this helper function allowed to use CALL-NEXT-METHOD?
<beach>
jmercouris: Two or more clicks would be fine. I just don't want to manually select the nodes to collapse.
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<beach>
schweers: CALL-NEXT-METHOD will be lexically defined, so you need to pass it as an argument to your helper function, as in (helper ... #'call-next-method).
<schweers>
okay, but then I’m good?
<beach>
I don't see why not.
<jmercouris>
beach: I need to think about this a little bit more, because I assume you also want to view data from all of these nodes at once, right?
<schweers>
now that I think of it, I can just pass in a short lambda instead.
<schweers>
still, thanks!
<jmercouris>
I can think of how to hide them, but not how to join their data
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<beach>
jmercouris: I see. Well, most of the time, the data will be used locally, so it should be hidden as well. But there are cases when data will be shared, as when a nested function refers to a variable in its parent function.
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<jmercouris>
Okay, so the goal is just to view the data right?
<jmercouris>
You could most definitely write a quick query in the data lab to do this
<jmercouris>
based on some node ide
<jmercouris>
s/ide/id
<beach>
Hmm. OK.
<jmercouris>
you could grab the ID or whatever unique attribute for the node by clicking on it, and then write a query to fetch the data from that node, and the nearby nodes in the data laboratory
<beach>
The term "data laboratory" is new to me.
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<beach>
I guess I'll try to find it in the manual.
<jmercouris>
beach: Just download the Gephi program
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<beach>
I think I need to read the manual first.
<jmercouris>
As you wish :)
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<beach>
I see several tutorials and videos, but no reference manual.
<jmercouris>
I take that back, clicking manual just takes you back to the tutorials page..
<beach>
Don't worry about it.
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<v0|d>
wow sb-c::*source-paths* rulz. no idea how to make the code portable though =:.
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<shka>
v0|d: what it does?
<beach>
Must be some FFI stuff.
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<v0|d>
i was trying to mimic compiler notes/errors
<v0|d>
to hilight stuff in slime/swank.
<v0|d>
during compilation and it was easier than i expected.
<scymtym_>
v0|d: if this is about getting more precise source locations for errors signaled from [compiler-] macro functions, use SB-EXT:WITH-CURRENT-SOURCE-FORM instead
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<shka>
v0|d: uiop?
<v0|d>
scymtym_: interesting.
<v0|d>
shka: it has style-warning but does it make source locations portable?
<shka>
v0|d: either uiop or asdf has something like that
<v0|d>
scymtym_: ah nice to debug macros, thnx.
<shka>
i can check it if you want
<shka>
(uiop:current-lisp-file-pathname)
<shka>
v0|d: try this function call
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<scymtym_>
v0|d: sure. don't forget the #+sbcl to keep the code portable
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<v0|d>
scymtym_: t
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<jeosol>
sie
<jeosol>
morning guys
<beach>
Hello jeosol.
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<shka1>
jeosol: hello
<jeosol>
hey, hello beach and shka1
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<jeosol>
Is there some kind of design pattern resource somewhere for CL. Recently, I was having issues with some crazy piece of code because of completed logic, eventually used defmethods to clean it out and specialize on some parameter (eql :name) to clean it up
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<housel>
jeosol: Common Lisp Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach by Edmund Weitz
<jeosol>
ok, thanks housel. Most of my early info where from Keene and The CLOS Perspective books. Good reads.
<beach>
jeosol: I didn't "get" CLOS protocol design until I read the CLIM II specification.
<jeosol>
Oh really, that should be a good read then.
<beach>
I had read Keene's books before and it kind of made sense, but CLIM II takes it much further.
<jeosol>
that would be useful then. I did Keene, the CLOS perspective (old book, but got a new copy) and latter compares CL with C++, smalltalk and others
<jeosol>
I guess I have to look at the CLIM II spec then. My code base can use some cleaning. It is heavy on inheritance and layering of objects.
<jeosol>
beach: thanks again for the link. It's a large application and so I'll learn a few things
<beach>
Sure. Good luck.
<jeosol>
one question, this does not link all the codes. I did quick check and a see a few code snippets. Not like I want to go over everything,
<beach>
For the code, look at the McCLIM repository.
<jeosol>
but just to see better ways of doing things. When I finally understand macros, I was able to get application to get my code to generate many convenience functions.
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<jasom>
beach: IIRC Franz has a graph visualization tool, but I do'nt know if it works without allegrograph (which has a free edition, but not sure what the limitations are)
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