<makomo>
kenster: yeah, i get it. a mapping between class names in lisp and C/C++
<makomo>
the problem here was that the macros themselves were using a different *c-class-struct* symbol though
<makomo>
it was interned in another package, but used the same name
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<makomo>
kenster: expand it once, bit by bit. it should fail at the defcun macro
<makomo>
kenster: also, C-c C-m
<makomo>
now expand the cffi-defun macro
<makomo>
C-_ to undo the macroexpansion :-)
<makomo>
hmm, maybe your keybindings are different, oh well
<makomo>
i don't remember what the CFFI assertion said. something about the name of the symbol
<makomo>
expand the decfun macro now
<makomo>
you should get the error
<makomo>
you're welcome :-)
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<makomo>
kenster: at this point it looks like you're using defcfun in the wrong way, but i don't know much about cffi to help you with that
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<no-defun-allowed>
what format string should i use to pad a number out to always look like 12.34? that is, two places before and after the decimal point
<no-defun-allowed>
never mind, got it
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<Xach>
no-defun-allowed: i use ~$ for that
<Xach>
i guess that's not quite the same
<makomo>
kenster: see the comment above DEFCFUN. i don't think 2 strings are allowed. the things in the list must be a string and a symbol
<makomo>
kenster: check the expansion manually again -- get used to doing that :D
<makomo>
kenster: c-method-name within defcmethod is (string (gensym))
<no-defun-allowed>
Xach: PCL had ~2,2$ so i used that
<makomo>
kenster: cffi-method-name*
<makomo>
i'm not sure if that's by design or what, just saying
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<makomo>
kenster: what is even the point of cffi-defun? why make it into a separate macro anyway?
<makomo>
kenster: you might want cAdr, since you're working with a list, not a cons cell
<makomo>
cdr is giving you back a list
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<makomo>
kenster: SECOND :-)
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<makomo>
kenster: i see, but is a separate macro really needed for that? you could do the job in defcmethod as well
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<makomo>
kenster: in the end it depends on how you'll want to organize things in the future i guess, just a suggestion
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<kenster>
makomo_: you wouldn't happen to know what to do if gensym won't generate a unique symbol?
<kenster>
it keeps saying duplicate definitions for symbol "G0", yet I macroexpanded my defcmethod calls and each one has a different symbol
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<kenster>
" Duplicate definition for G0 found in one file."
<Bike>
that would indicate a deeply broken implementation of gensym. it is more likely that the problem is elsewhere.
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<kenster>
hmmmmmmmmmm
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<White_Flame>
even if you reset the gensym counter such that two calls to GENSYM both returned #:G123, those two #:G123's would be different instances, as they're uninterned, and wouldn't complain about duplication
<White_Flame>
so you're taking the return value from a single GENSYM call and using it in two places
<kenster>
that's weird
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<kenster>
they are completely different calls to the macro
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<kenster>
it isn't my only error though, so I'll see after fixing the others
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<kenster>
hiya
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<caltelt>
good evening :D
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<no-defun-allowed>
hi beach
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<equwal>
How can I set something like
<equwal>
(defun x (y) (declare ((integer 0 +max-const+) y)))
<equwal>
I'
<equwal>
without everything breaking because the type-spec doesn't get evaluated?
<equwal>
I'd like some kind of a reader modification I think.
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<beach>
(integer 0 #.+max-const+)
<equwal>
Wow I feel stupid for asking, thanks for the help.
<beach>
And you need a TYPE in there I think.
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<equwal>
Yes.
<beach>
Of course, I would not put in the type declaration in the first place. But that's perhaps just me. What do you expect from it?
<equwal>
I am using (defconstant +max64+ 18446744073709551615) where that big number is 2^64-1
<equwal>
The idea is get more efficiency, but still being sure that it is definitely not a 32 bit machine or whatever.
<beach>
And you know for a fact that this function is a bottleneck when it comes to the performance of your code?
<beach>
My experience is that bottlenecks come and go during development.
<equwal>
No, I am porting some stuff from C by hand and I know that the code won't overflow for that reason.
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<beach>
That was not my point though. My point was about performance.
<beach>
When you write it like that, most people here will think about some dialect from the 1960s.
<equwal>
Yeah I had to think for a second before deciding not to go and rub it out in favor of 'Common Lisp.'
<equwal>
Anyway it doesn't make a lot of sense not to use those types if I am merely transcribing to CL without any real modifications.
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<vtomole_>
Any way to get the number of arguments a procedure takes? "(defun square (x) (* x x)) (num-proc #'square) -> 1"
<vsync>
if there are 2 variants of a thing (message), one generic but with all the info, and another specialized for a recipient with IDs mapped to recipient system, what would you call them?
<vsync>
I feel like I know some term used in CLOS/MOP object creation/instantiation but can't remember and don't know if apropos
<Zhivago>
vsync: Rather than what they are, consider how they are used.
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<vsync>
well the first is used to produce the second... the point of the first is a generic notification of something that is then dispatched and particularized... the second is one that can be transmitted to the target system
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<Zhivago>
vsync: Ok, so the first is not a message -- it is a notice. The second is a message that can be sent.
<vsync>
not quite
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<vsync>
the first is a message precursor or a proto-message... everything to be filled in is mechanical it's just not bundled yet, so you say "send this to them" and it makes the latter out of the former and hands it off to given recipient
<vsync>
hmm, like a form letter
<vsync>
but template conveys there is no data in there, where in this case there is, just only the common data and per-recipient remains to be merged
<beach>
vtomole_: Try FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION. It is not guaranteed to work, though.
<beach>
vsync: Your description is way to general for me to have any idea what you are talking about. That could just be me of course.
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<beach>
vsync: Are these "things" ("messages") just data?
<beach>
And what does it mean for a "thing" to be "specialized"? Is that a subclass?
<beach>
And, if so, how can a datum be used to produce another datum? Usually, it takes some code to produce anything at all.
<vtomole_>
beach: Wow! That will do. I say this a lot- the standard library is so huge :)
<mfiano>
I'm having trouble. How would I write a macro with once-only which expands to a (declare (ignorable ...)) directly below the gensym'd let expansion from once-only?
<beach>
vtomole_: It is not guaranteed to return something useful, for the simple reason that, if it were, you could get the code for the proprietary compiler in one of the commercial implementations.
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<beach>
mfiano: You want the entire expansion to be the declaration?
<beach>
jackdaniel: McCLIM excels for stuff like that.
<trittweiler>
mfiano: Don't use once-only but write the let yourself. :)
<jackdaniel>
looks messy, but given amount of data it would be hard to show it clearly. nice!
<jackdaniel>
line antialiassing would improve the look
<mfiano>
trittweiler: Yeah I did just that, or well with-gensyms
<beach>
jackdaniel: Oh, yes, it's messy. But a lot less so than with GraphViz.
<jackdaniel>
but I figure it is more convenient than going through graphviz
<beach>
jackdaniel: Yes, loke would agree.
<jackdaniel>
I have something ~similar for ECL (but it is buried somewhere, don't remember where) - for examining environments
<shka1>
beach: so you wrote it already?
<shka1>
that was fast
<beach>
shka1: Sort of. It's McCLIM so it is easy to do things like this.
<shka1>
… ok
<shka1>
it does not look easy
<beach>
jackdaniel: It is still work in progress, but yes, I can define some gestures to improve the experience, which I can not do with a dumb image file.
<jackdaniel>
sure
<shka1>
beach: can i look at the source code?
<jackdaniel>
could that be implemented as a clouseau's method specialization? I think that it is extensible that way
<trittweiler>
mfiano: Personally, I don't like macros silently introducing bindings. Wouldn't an inline function (mat-ref <thing> 0 1) which does the right aref be nicer?
<beach>
... so you can see why it does not take much time to write.
<jackdaniel>
if someone is in need for a fine Lispy folk music, I can recommend Karolina Cicha's albums – lispy in a sense that she digs into traditional forgotten melodies ;-)
<trittweiler>
vsync, I am working on something similar. In my case, I have a class `packet` which is addressable and which contains a `payload`, and `message` is a subclass of `payload`
<mfiano>
trittweiler: That's not really anything to do with the question, and this macro is exclusively for being able to write linear algebra similar to how it is presented in a math text, so introducing bindings is purposeful.
<trittweiler>
Sure, just brain-storming.
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<vsync>
trittweiler: already using payload for the generic argument name :-)
<vsync>
okay, figured out a little more what I'm going for.... there is an event or so, that we create some communication from a given perspective, not for a given recipient but for a class of recipients; then we create a message from that thing (suitable for sending to a recipient); then a specific document with everything inlined
<vsync>
what is that thing, that initial proto-communication
<vsync>
designated for a class of recipients sharing a perspective
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<trittweiler>
vsync: announcement?
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<vsync>
yeah maybe, occurred to me
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<pjb>
vtomole: Usually, (length (third (function-lambda-expression #'square))) doesn't work after compiling.
<pjb>
or file-compiling.
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<pjb>
vtomole: the reliable and conforming way to have this (if you need it in your program, and not just for debugging), is to define your own define function macro that will do the book-marking. See an example in ibcl.
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<beach>
shka: They can be large, but they are not very "wide", so I think it will be fine.
<shka>
ok
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<beach>
Plus, this is for displaying the graph, so I can wait a few milliseconds for the layout engine to finish.
<shka>
you can wait longer then a few miliseconds actually
<shka>
so it is not bad
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<beach>
Yeah, that was a bit of a joke.
<shka>
oh, ok :-)
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<jackdaniel>
just prove that P=NP and move along ;-)
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<beach>
Oh, good plan! :)
<beach>
I'll just tell drmeister and Bike that they have to wait for the HIR visualizer for a while. :)
<jackdaniel>
beach: I've asked previously if you considered doing it as a clouseau specialization, you might have missed that question (regarding visualizer)
<shka>
"I am going for a side quest!"
<beach>
jackdaniel: Oh, I totally missed it.
<beach>
That's an interesting idea.
<jackdaniel>
when I finish the infinite amount of tasks I have on my stack I plan to work on clouseau too (mostly tutorials if everything is fine in it)
<beach>
OK.
<shka>
I like this idea
<shka>
I may try doing
<shka>
because such tool could be seriously useful
<beach>
Collectively, we have plenty of ideas for very nice tools, but I think we need more people involved if we are ever going to make significant progress.
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<shka>
I may start by refactoring graph display thingy into separate project
<shka>
then i think it shouldn't be THAT hard to plug it into mr inspector
<jackdaniel>
shka: format-graph-from-roots is already in CLIM
<shka>
ooooh, ok
<jackdaniel>
you may provide your own specialized presentation method for that
<shka>
i see
<shka>
ok then
<jackdaniel>
as of clouseau in McCLIM documentation it is described how to specialize on some object types
<shka>
yeah
<shka>
ok
<shka>
actually i would like to display graph of objects in inspector
<shka>
just in general case
<jackdaniel>
I think that there is no "clever" algorithm to place graph nodes in format-graph-from-roots, so you may take that into account
<jackdaniel>
I think graphviz has its algorithms described, so you could implement that in CL
<shka>
it is even published
<shka>
so yes
<LdBeth>
How’s the progress on cario backend for McCLIM
<shka>
beach: are you ok with such feature in clouseau?
<jackdaniel>
you mean cairo? there is no progress, we have no plans for having gtk backend atm
<jackdaniel>
shka: clouseau is extensible, that means you don't have to modify the inspector in order to add functionality to it
<shka>
jackdaniel: even better!
<beach>
shka: Oh, that's hard to say from such a short description. But you can customize it as you please, then we can see if the code is general enough and good enough to be included in the distribution.
<shka>
ok, I will try to hack something on the weekend
<jackdaniel>
that and jmercouris's portable gadgetset and we'll conquer the world ;) or at least find a few more contributors
<beach>
shka: This stuff is written with heavy use of generic functions, so it is designed to be adapted.
<jackdaniel>
lunch time; bbl
<jmercouris>
of course :D
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<shka>
what is portable gadgetset?
<jmercouris>
basically, from my very limited understanding, it is a set of platform independent McCLIM gadgets that you can use
<beach>
Indeed.
<jmercouris>
so McCLIM allows you to use gadgets from the native widget toolkit where possible, but you could also use these lisp only gadgets
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<beach>
jmercouris: In practice that feature (using native gadgets) is very hard to accomplish, and we are not even sure it can be done with McCLIM right now.
<beach>
jmercouris: I would much rather see one or more sets of gadgets, where each set has a consistent look and feel.
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<jmercouris>
I see
<beach>
My preference is for obvious reasons. I would much prefer a solution with as much Common Lisp code as possible.
<shka>
that sounds useful
<shka>
having comprehensive set of built widgets helps to get application out ready quickly
<beach>
jmercouris: The CLIM II specification contains a description of all the gadgets that CLIM implementations must have, but we have nothing against extensions. For example, there have been several attempts at a gadget for displaying hierarchies like a directory of files.
<jmercouris>
Several attempts? What makes such a task so difficult? Isn't it just a tree widget?
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<beach>
jmercouris: It doesn't sound difficult and I don't know why they were never finished. Perhaps there is one now. I haven't looked lately.
<jmercouris>
beach: links?
<beach>
jmercouris: No, I can't remember. It is all from memory.
<jmercouris>
I see
<beach>
jmercouris: I have been working on McCLIM since the year 2000.
<jmercouris>
Wow
<jmercouris>
That is quite dedication to a project
<beach>
Off and on of course.
<jmercouris>
Ah okay, well, that makes it a little different, but still
<jmercouris>
I think the longest I've worked on a project has been about 3 years
<beach>
shka: We have that, of course. But the people who wrote the code are not graphics designers, so people who are complain that they are ugly, not modern enough, inconsistent, etc.
<beach>
jmercouris: Bah, it took me decades to get the editor-buffer implementation right. :)
<jmercouris>
Hard for me to imagine things on that time scale
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<pjb>
jmercouris: did you try: SHELL=/usr/bin/clisp in your Makefile?
<jmercouris>
pjb: I can't say I did, why would I do that?
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<pjb>
jmercouris: otherwise, just write a generate.lisp and load it from the Makefile generate:; sbcl --load generate.lisp
<jmercouris>
Oh I see
<pjb>
jmercouris: to be able to write common lisp expressions instead of bash commands in the Makefile rules.
<jmercouris>
yeah, maybe I'll change it down the road
<shka>
beach: i don't care if it is ugly, i just want tool to view my data structures
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<beach>
shka: Then you should be fine.
<shka>
i think so :-)
<shka>
also, i really liked flamegraphs
<beach>
Yeah, they seem useful.
<shka>
it didn't work perfectly but it was major improvement over raw sbcl output
<beach>
For the profiler?
<beach>
Sure.
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<Guest88787>
I'm newbie to lisp
<shka>
Guest88787: hello
<Guest88787>
I want to do web development in common lisp.
<shka>
that's good
<Guest88787>
hi shka
<Guest88787>
Where should I start.?
<shka>
pick something with good tutorial
<Guest88787>
I have read ANSI CL by Paul Graham.
<shka>
radiance is pretty ok
<shka>
and try to use it
<Guest88787>
Now I'm reading onlisp. It's very hard book.
<shka>
eeeh let's say i am not a huge fan of grahams writing
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<Guest88787>
Bht Why shka?
<shka>
i find his style to be heavy
<shka>
it is difficult to follow and undestand, at least for me
<shka>
guy steele for instance is much better writer imho
<Guest88787>
CLtL2?
<shka>
yup
<Guest88787>
Isn't that reference book?
<shka>
i would dare to say so :-)
<jackdaniel>
I really liked ANSI CL book, especially the excercises
<jackdaniel>
shka: cltl2 is a reference manual, ANSI CL book is something what aims at teaching you something
<jackdaniel>
about programming etc
<shka>
well, yes
<Guest88787>
yeah it's good book.
<jackdaniel>
Guest88787: if you want more CLOS-centric approach at learning Common Lisp you may read PCL
<jackdaniel>
minion: tell Guest88787 about pcl
<minion>
Guest88787: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<jackdaniel>
and if you want to have something fun to read, read PAIP (recently published online)
<jsjolen>
I dreamt about a hack to add monomorphically typed tuples to CL
<jsjolen>
Now I just have to code it
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<jackdaniel>
Guest88787: as of web development, I don't know any book which concentrates on that. common advice is to write backend in CL and frontend in react (or something similar)
<jsjolen>
jackdaniel: There's a book called WebTales or something. It's self-published and so on
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<beach>
Oh, this will be gorgeous. I implemented a simple algorithm for finding the longest path. It is definitely fast enough for our HIR graphs and the layout of the instructions will be fantastic with it.
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<OwenBarfield>
Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
<OwenBarfield>
or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
<dlowe>
the attack is on the networks, not on individuals in channels
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<asarch>
"There is more to Lisp than this, but the ability to bend Lisp to one’s will is a large part of what distinguishes a Lisp expert from a novice."
<asarch>
And "Experienced Lisp programmers build the language up toward their programs."
<asarch>
Wow! So powerful!
<asarch>
Paul Graham, On Lisp
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<daedreth>
jo?
<daedreth>
O . o
<dlowe>
despite his unofficial designation as "spokesman for lisp", pg's opinions on lisp are not that common.
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<heisig>
One could also say "The wisdom not to bend Lisp to one's will on every occasion is a large part of what distinguishes a Lisp expert from a novice." :)
<dlowe>
and he has an idiosyncratic style
<daedreth>
I have a question. I'm working right now through Paul Grahams book.
<daedreth>
Why does (apply #'list 1 nil) evaluate to (1) and (funcall #'list 1 nil) to (1 nil)
<daedreth>
?
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<heisig>
daedreth: The last argument to apply supplies a list of arguments (in this case, none) to the function, while the last argument to funcall is just another argument.
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<heisig>
So for apply, LIST receives just one argument, 1. For FUNCALL, LIST receives two arguments, 1 and NIL.
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<daedreth>
I think I got it, thanks. Recursion is still wrecking my brain a bit though. :D
<Bike>
s easy, you do a thing, and that thing does the thing which is the same thing as the thing you did
<daedreth>
> . < you are mean!
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<daedreth>
Q ~ Q My brain stack is not big enough.
<dlowe>
specifically, you break down a problem into smaller problems of exactly the same type until it can't be broken down any more.
<Bike>
i am mean
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<dlowe>
think about how you would hit all the files in a directory tree. You scan through a directory, hitting all the files, but when you get to another directory, you want to do exactly the same thing to that one.
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<daedreth>
I got that one. I guess it's just getting some experience. Fibonacci and in order tree traversel are alright.
<Bike>
well that's basically it.
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<Bike>
is there some specific example you're not understanding?
<xificurC>
recursion is when you open a box and find 5 boxes
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<daedreth>
excercise 5b) of the second chapter in the PGs Ansi Common lisp book.
<daedreth>
page 29
<vtomole>
fwiw, I didn't understand recursion until I read The Little Schemer.
<Bike>
i don't have the book, so not much i can do for you there
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<daedreth>
then let my type it out. (if I can figure out how to get line breaks in IRC. :D
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<vtomole>
Use Github gist or Paste.org
<random-nick>
IRC doesn't allow line breaks in messages
<daedreth>
Yeah, what does the code. I'm really sure.
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<daedreth>
y is supposed to be a list that gets parsed or something.
<beach>
daedreth: It seems to return the position in the list of the value of X, or NIL if no such value exists.
<beach>
... the position of the FIRST OCCURRENCE.
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<daedreth>
Now that I think about it. I could've just typed it into the repl and tested it.
<daedreth>
lel
<Bike>
yeah, but there's still stuff to see form the code even if you don't get the whole thing
<Bike>
for example, y has NULL, CAR,and CDR called on it, so it's probably supposed to be a list
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<LdBeth>
It isn’t tail recursive, does it?
<daedreth>
The think that's melting my brain is the else clause of the second if expression.
<beach>
Nope.
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<beach>
daedreth: Do you know anything about proof by induction from math?
<beach>
daedreth: It's the same stuff.
<daedreth>
yes
<daedreth>
should I proof it for u, sensei?
<beach>
daedreth: Let's say you want to find the position of the first occurrence of X in the list Y...
<beach>
daedreth: Base case, the list Y is empty.
<pjb>
So it was ((bat (((((((mario))))))))).
<beach>
daedreth: Then there is no occurrence of X, so you return NIL (meaning no occurrence).
<daedreth>
I got the base case, but the else clause...
<daedreth>
and the "and" inside the "let"
<beach>
daedreth: Then, if the first element of the list is X, then you found the first occurrence and its position is 0, so you return that.
<beach>
daedreth: If not, you find the first occurrence of X is the rest of the list (cdr y).
<pjb>
daedreth: sprunge.us was nicer, but it seems it doesn't work anymore.
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<daedreth>
beach: got that
<beach>
daedreth: If the result of that recursive call is nil, then there is no occurrence, so you return NIL again (that's what (and NIL ...) does.
<daedreth>
so the "and" is to make sure, that everything up the stack evaluates to nil.
<beach>
daedreth: Finally, if the result of the recursive call is not NIL then by induction it is the position of the first occurrence of X in the rest of the list (cdr y).
<beach>
So you return 1 + that position, because the list is one element longer.
<beach>
daedreth: He should not have written it that way. It is not good style.
<beach>
daedreth: He should have written (if (null z) nil (1+ z))
<daedreth>
(+ 1 z) :p
<daedreth>
ok, I let me think about this a minute.
<beach>
(+ <mumble> 1) is better written (1+ <mumble>)
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<pjb>
(1+ x) is not (+ 1 x) but (+ x 1)!
<pjb>
(1- x) is not (- 1 x) but (- x 1)!
<pjb>
think successor, and predecessor.
<pjb>
succ(x) and pred(x) in Pascal.
<LdBeth>
Emm, he could definitely write a loop
<pjb>
but writing loops would involve more variables, therefore more naming.
<beach>
daedreth: So you see, a recursive program has the same structure as a proof by induction.
<beach>
... or rather, it should, in order to be understandable.
<shka>
:D
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<daedreth>
ok, I got it. If you find x at position 3 for example, it will return (+ 3 1) at the end of the 3rd recursive call, because that's the last thing, that get's evaluated int the "and".
<daedreth>
right?
<pjb>
right.
<pjb>
(macroexpand-1 '(and x (+ 1 l))) #| --> (if x (and (+ 1 l))) ; t |#
<Corvus`_>
This message was brought to you by Private Internet Access
<daedreth>
(ಥ╭͜ʖ╮ಥ)
<beach>
pjb: Are you showing various unacceptable solutions?
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<pjb>
I find it acceptable.
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<shka>
damn spammers
<daedreth>
"– American Patriot and known Pedo Positive Timothy James McVeigh"
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<pjb>
But the thing is that often the data flow is more complex, so you cannot use this kind of concise form.
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<daedreth>
I thought I could just casually read through "ANSI Common LISP", but those excercises won't let me pass if I'm unworthy. It's fun though. ^^
<shka>
this spammer seems to be rather... unstable
<beach>
daedreth: You will get it eventually.
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<daedreth>
The ultimate goal is to be able to use all my knowledge to create the ultimate goal of every programmer. The perfect Emacs configuration.
<beach>
daedreth: Also, just like a proof by induction, you will always see the base case first. If not, you will leave the poor person reading your code in suspense.
<daedreth>
^agreed
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* LdBeth
would finally find out Emacs sucks and the ultimate goal switched to making a new wheel
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<daedreth>
Hah! Jokes on you. I'm not a native english speaker, so I didn't got the joke.
<daedreth>
xD
<daedreth>
didn't get*
<daedreth>
ahem
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<Asorailahd16>
or maybe this blog by freenode staff member Matthew 'mst' Trout https://MattSTrout.com/
<Asorailahd16>
Hey, I thought you guys might be interested in this blog by freenode staff member Bryan 'kloeri' Ostergaard https://bryanostergaard.com/
<daedreth>
I would have to polish my almost non existent italian.
<beach>
I am betting they speak English.
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<daedreth>
I haven't been on any meetup yet. But it would probably be a nice experience though.
<beach>
There are usually nearly 100 people attending.
<beach>
daedreth: Some of us also sometimes meet on other occasions.
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<daedreth>
I'm a poor student though. ^ - ^
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<LdBeth>
╮(￣▽￣"")╭me too
<daedreth>
living each day as if it were my last and scraping up leftovers from trash cans in order to able to save up some money for the electricity which is needed for my beloved computer in order to learn LISP.
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<Zhivago>
You don't need electricity for that -- you can always scratch s-exps in the dirt and resolve them manually.
<aindilis>
hi daedreth
<daedreth>
jo
<aindilis>
I used to scrape out of trashcans
<aindilis>
and I have been working on the perfect emacs configuration
<daedreth>
aindlilis: Wanna be best friends for ever?
<aindilis>
sure!
<daedreth>
nice!
<aindilis>
so tell me more
<daedreth>
uhhh...hm...
<beach>
Let's stick to the topic please.
<daedreth>
^
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<daedreth>
(agreementp (agree (+ 0 1)) --> T
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<beach>
There is #lispcafe for discussions that don't belong here.
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<jmercouris>
I have a design in my program that already works, you have commands, and command-completions
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<jmercouris>
a command is function that you can invoke
<jmercouris>
a command completion is a function that you can invoke with a string representing a function call, and it helps you complete it
<jmercouris>
as you can see, there is a (define-command) and (define-command-completion) macro
<jmercouris>
I don't like the way that these are coupled together, as defined-command-completion depends upon define-command
<jmercouris>
sometimes, in my image, it seems that a command completion will not be correctly associated with a command
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<jmercouris>
any suggestions ideas are appreciated
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<jmercouris>
s/suggestions ideas/suggestions or ideas
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<LdBeth>
Do you want completions to be inherited?
<jmercouris>
LdBeth: what do you mean by inherited?
<jmercouris>
I want a completion function to somehow be associated with a command
<beach>
jmercouris: Perhaps at this point you are ready to see how it works in CLIM. There is the concept of commands, but also of presentations types.
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<jmercouris>
beach: presentation types?
<beach>
Yes, the very essence of CLIM.
<beach>
Brilliant stuff. Makes the applications way more modular.
<jmercouris>
Okay, let me go ahead and clone the repository
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<beach>
Essentially, when you draw some figure in a window, you can assign a presentation type to it.
<beach>
Then if you have a command that accepts arguments of a certain presentation type, instead of typing those arguments, all figures of that presentation type become clickable.
<beach>
Or, you can use completion.
<jmercouris>
interesting
<jmercouris>
I assume commands are objects and presentation types are classes?
<beach>
Sort of.
<beach>
Presentation types have a few more features than classes do.
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<jmercouris>
Is there some example in the codebase I can look at?
<jmercouris>
in the examples dir?
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<beach>
Sure, there is always the typical address-book demo.
<beach>
It shows the essence.
<jmercouris>
A classic demo
<beach>
Yes.
<jmercouris>
why do they wrap (make-instance 'address) in a function (make-address)? is this a thing I should be doing?
<beach>
Opinions differ.
<beach>
Sonja Keene favors such explicit "constructors".
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<trittweiler>
Can we set +r as the channel mode? This will prevent unregistered users from joining. I assume those spammers are not actually identified.
<trittweiler>
that would be /mode #lisp +r
<trittweiler>
I'm not seeing them in #emacs which does have +r
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<Bike>
i suppose it will be hard to use the channel today otherwise
<Bike>
any objection?
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<jackdaniel>
I suppose none
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<Inline>
nope
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<Inline>
no problem
<jackdaniel>
I'll lift it tomorrow (given I won't forget)
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<vtomole>
stylewarning: Hi
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<kenster>
Hey so if I use defmethod inside of a macro, and the macro is in a separate package, how do I export that method?
<dlowe>
put an EXPORT form in your macro expansion
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<brettgilio>
I've been working with Scheme for about two months. I know this group may have a bias, but should I stick to learning Scheme, or should I learn Common Lisp instead? I'd also like to know why you think so.
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<Bike>
if you learn one it'll take you like an hour to get going with the other.
<brettgilio>
ty Bike
<kenster>
dlowe: I tried that and it still says the function is an alien function
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<housel>
brettgilio: of course, depends on what sort of programs you want to write, and which language's community is developing libraries in areas that you're interested in, etc.
<kenster>
the thing is the method name used in defmethod is provided by the caller of the function
<kenster>
so it does defmethod FILEBUCKET::NEW in this case
<kenster>
but exporting it to the package of cffi-utils does nothing
<kenster>
so do I have to have a parameter with the caller's package name? seems kind of weird
<dlowe>
kenster: packages don't have anything to do with alien-ness of functions
<kenster>
The alien function "new" is undefined.
<kenster>
ah ok
<kenster>
nevermind
<kenster>
I know the issue
<kenster>
so if i have a (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (...)) form that defines a parameter for usage in a macro
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<kenster>
do I have to export it after I do defparameter, no in the (:export ) form of defpackage?
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<Bike>
it's very preferable to export in defpackage
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<kenster>
oddly when I do (gethash class *c-class-structs*) it clearly isn't getting a result, with *c-class-structs* not being nil, and class being 'upload-session which I setf in c-structs.lisp
<kenster>
err with (gethash 'upload-session *c-class-structs*) being a string
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<kenster>
the defparameter is defined with the setf forms inside (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (...))
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<pjb>
kenster: don't export automatically: let the user pass the name of the generic function as an explicit parameter to the macro, and let the user export or not export that symbol as he wishes.
<kenster>
that's what I do, yeah
<kenster>
the alien function is a different error with CFFI
<kenster>
and the reason why is because it's not looking up the C struct name in *c-class-structs*
<kenster>
so my macro expands to the non-struct prefix version
<pjb>
If you call gethash in the macro, at macro-expansion time, ie. in the compilation environment, you must ensure that the hash-table is filled in the compilation environment.
<kenster>
it should be FileUploadingSession_new
<kenster>
yes, so I put the defparameter with the setf forms inside (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (...))
<pjb>
And vice-versa, if you call gethash in the expansion of the macro, so it's executed at run-time, you must ensure that the hash-table is filled at run-time, in the execution environment.
<kenster>
but that eval-when is in a separate package
<kenster>
I think the hash-table is defined, because otherwise gethash would have given me an error
<pjb>
(eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) …) can help but mostly, it works only if it's toplevel. Sometimes you have to fill those hash-table twice, explicitely at macro-expansion time and explicitely in the expansion, at run-time.
<pjb>
The question is how you fill it.
<kenster>
that's weird that the defparameter would execute then and not the setf forms following it
<kenster>
because the hash table is defined, but the hash table isn't populated I guess
<pjb>
One point to note is that not all lisp objects are writable to the fasl file. For some lisp custom lisp objects, you can provide a make-load-form method, but some other objects have to be re-created at load-time to be available at run-time.
<pjb>
So in a way, CL is outside of the Eden.
<kenster>
hmmm
<shka1>
pjb: poetic
<kenster>
so how would the parameter be defined but not the hash values within the value?
<kenster>
it worked before when the eval-when was in the same file
<pjb>
If you make it work at compilation time with a surrounding eval-when, it will still re-initialize the binding with a new hash-table at run-time.
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<pjb>
You have to be careful, because usually when developping, the compilation environment is the same as the execution environment. But once you compile the fasl and load them at run-time in a new image, you only have the execution environment. Or when you boot a fresh image, and asdf load the compiled file and save an executable image.
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<kenster>
oops I forgot the package definitions for them
<kenster>
well, each of the lisp files have package definitions, just assume that, lol
<pjb>
kenster: I get The value "G45281" is not of the expected type list. when compiling that.
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<kenster>
I didn't include the other packages with the dependencies
<kenster>
so that may be why
<shka1>
does not sound like it
<kenster>
it works here so I don't know :/
<kenster>
just not the part with gethash
<kenster>
I have :cffi :alexandria in my :use
<kenster>
it could be that he is getting to the correct expanded form, and it is just incorrectly evaluated
<kenster>
which would make sense because he probably has the eval-when in the same file
<kenster>
so I have to fix that, but that doesn't solve the issue of the separate file not being able to export a compile time hash
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<aeth>
This will work for most standard-classes/structure-classes: (defmacro define-simple-slot-saving-for-class (class) `(defmethod make-load-form ((object ,class) &optional environment) (make-load-form-saving-slots object :environment environment)))
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<aeth>
It works on so many I sort of wonder why this wasn't the default behavior of defclass and defstruct, where you would only overwrite that when you have an issue with that.
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<klltkr_>
Yo
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<stylewarning>
vtomole: hi
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<vtomole>
stylewarning: Sent a pull request your way:https://github.com/tarballs-are-good/cl-forest/pull/3. I think i'm the only one who uses this as it's been like this for a while :). Would love a review.
<Bike>
aeth: because if it doesn't work it will do so subtly