<edgar-rft>
ebrasca, what's your specific problem with cl:read-byte? (just curious)
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<ebrasca>
edgar-rft: Thinking how to make my FAT32 work wich other CLs.
<ebrasca>
edgar-rft: I need some method to add FAT32 read-byte.
<edgar-rft>
in other words: you need to read 32-bit bytes?
<ebrasca>
I need to make my custom read-byte.
<Bike>
i thought read-byte already did that.
<ebrasca>
In mezzano there is generic read-byte and then it specializes.
<Bike>
on what, the stream?
<ebrasca>
Yes
<Bike>
because that's exactly what gray streams provides, and most implementations support the extension.
<ebrasca>
Mezzano have someting called sys.gray .
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<ebrasca>
I think it uses flexi-streams and trivial-gray-streams stream libraries.
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<Bike>
trivial-gray-streams is just a portability wrapper over the gray streams extension.
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<ebrasca>
Is metamorphosis = complexity ?
<Bike>
what?
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<Bike>
is "metamorphosis" the name of a library or are you referring to butterfly development or what
<ebrasca>
I am thinking about change of forms.
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<ebrasca>
How butterfly development apply to programing?
<Bike>
no idea mate
<ebrasca>
I think they can chenge they form to some point.
<ebrasca>
And CL can change form like one butterfly.
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<ebrasca>
But butterfly in his transformation lose some mass.
<ebrasca>
Is there someting like this in CL?
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<edgar-rft>
one can perfectly morph in 1 dimension, so methamorphosis must not necessarily be complex
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<caltelt>
Is there anything similar to clojure's edn for cl? A way to read in a safe subset of the language that can be used for data transfer, conf files, etc?
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<edgar-rft>
there's read-line returning one line as a string plus a parser for safe tokens, to be written by *you*
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<caltelt>
so...glorious json it is then...
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<HighMemoryDaemon>
Why isn't this returning true?
<HighMemoryDaemon>
(setf emp1 '(:gender 'male))
<HighMemoryDaemon>
(eq (getf emp1 :gender) 'male)
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<HighMemoryDaemon>
solved it. It's because I declared the entire list as a symbol
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<Bike>
that doesn't mean anything. it's not returning true because (getf emp1 :gender) will be the list (QUOTE MALE).
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<blep-on-external>
hi beach
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<_death>
trivial-gray-streams should also export CLOSE since it's part of the Gray proposal
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<mrcom>
I really hate CLHS hell...
<makomo_>
edgar-rft: regarding your comment about feedback paths -- yes, it's possible to model those as well since pins can be used as input, output or both
<mrcom>
How do you declare a type def for a function with keywords?
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<mrcom>
e.g., given (defun foo (a &key b)) (declare (type fixnum a) (type list b)) ...)
<mrcom>
What's the type declaration for (defun baz (f) (declare (type <<??? something that accepts foo>> f))) ?
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<mrcom>
And I'm not looking for (declare (type function f)) :)
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<trittweiler>
mrcom: (declare (type function f))
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<mrcom>
That's what I wound up doing :/ But the better really, really hates losing to the good.
<trittweiler>
I'd be surprised if there's a compiler that does anything more with that specification in praxis that it wouldn't do with (declare (type function f))
<mrcom>
I'm looking more for type checking than optimizing. SBCL definitely checks when it compiles apply or funcall.
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<trittweiler>
When you declare a parameter to be a function, and you funcall that parameter, the compiler doesn't need to go through an implicit call to fdefinition. (As symbols and lists of form '(setf foo) are also callable)
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<flip214>
trittweiler: with SBCL and (optimize speed) the disassembly with the different declare statements is quite different...
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<random-nick>
why is define-condition not called defcondition?
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<beach>
random-nick: There is usually no point in asking "why" in such situations. This is true both for programming languages and natural languages. At some point, there was a mysterious consensus that one was better than the other. That's all there is to it usually.
<beach>
random-nick: Why is it called "tooth brush" but "dental floss" in English? Why not "dental brush" and "tooth floss"?
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<beach>
random-nick: You also have define-compiler-macro, define-method-combination, define-modify-macro, define-setf-expander, define-symbol-macro.
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<random-nick>
but those already have multiple words
<beach>
You are searching for logic and consistency where none is to be had.
<jackdaniel>
random-nick: one (made up) reason could be, that defun and defmacro were heritage from older lisps, while "modern" way for naming macros when CL was standarized was using define-* and the were to add conditions to the language
<jackdaniel>
s/and the/and they/
<random-nick>
jackdaniel: but what about defsetf?
<random-nick>
or defgeneric
<beach>
random-nick: So why is it called DEFGENERIC rather than DEFINE-GENERIC-FUNCTION?
<beach>
random-nick: Get over it. There is no logic reason for it.
<jackdaniel>
random-nick: I've given you a made up excuse, there could be others. I wouldn't bother with figuring that out
<beach>
random-nick: jackdaniel said "made up".
<jackdaniel>
there are more annoying inconsistencies in CL, like argument order in aref and gethash for that instance
<random-nick>
okay
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<jmercouris>
hence CL21
<jackdaniel>
I haven't seen even one project which would use CL21; I've only seen people praising or ignoring it ;-)
<jmercouris>
I've never used it, simply because the problems it addresses don't bother me enough
<Bike>
hopefully cl21 doesn't focus on john wilkins crap
<jmercouris>
if there were enough people using CL21, I had have no problem using it
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<jmercouris>
I'd have*
<jmercouris>
but since nobody is using it, I'm not about to write inconsistent code
<jackdaniel>
how inconsistent?
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<pjb>
there's nothing inconsistent in a CL program to (:use "CL21") instead of (:use "CL").
<pjb>
clim applications (:use "CLIM") instead of (:use "CL"); they're not inconsistent!
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<jackdaniel>
CLIM-LISP actually
<jackdaniel>
but yes, putting aside this details that's correct
<jmercouris>
jackdaniel: code inconsistent with the rest of the community
<pjb>
jmercouris: using dependencies doesn't make the code inconsistent.
<jackdaniel>
how inconsistent? is code using alexandria inconsistent with anything?
<pjb>
This is not a criteria.
<pjb>
The only criteria, is whether your code is conforming or not.
<jackdaniel>
or if I use named-readtables and I have #f as lambda dispatch - is it inconsistent?
<pjb>
(and there is unfortunately a lot of code that is not conforming: that is dependent on specificities of eg. sbcl).
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<JuanDaugherty>
by CLIM i take it people mean mcclim these days, is it production ready now?
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<jackdaniel>
define production ready
<jackdaniel>
it is something what may be used to write applications
<JuanDaugherty>
usable for an app that can be distributed for use by others
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<jackdaniel>
sure, why not
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<JuanDaugherty>
without expecting them to debug or develop around shortcomings/lack of completion in CLIM
<JuanDaugherty>
the why not is because some years ago it was not in that state, at least as far as use with sbcl
<jackdaniel>
usually writing complete applications requires some debugging and developing around shortcomings of used libraries. if that's your definition then it is not production ready ;)
<JuanDaugherty>
"them" referred to end users of the distribution
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<jackdaniel>
well, that depends then solely on the programmer. if he exposes interfaces which allow corruping application from the end-user point of view, then they will be able to corrupt it. but I truly don't think it is any library-specific problem, just a matter of testing and programming / qa effort
<JuanDaugherty>
ty, and that's based on use of it?
<JuanDaugherty>
(i.e. the current thing)
<jackdaniel>
what's based on use of it? I've stated an opinion about all software above, not CLIM particularily
<JuanDaugherty>
ah, y that was my question
<JuanDaugherty>
i wrote my first program in 1974, jackdaniel
<jackdaniel>
biggest shortcomming one could find is that McCLIM depends on X server running currently to have something displayed on the screen
<jackdaniel>
good for you, JuanDaugherty
<jackdaniel>
I wasn't born then, so I can't tell how impressive that is
<JuanDaugherty>
i'm good with that i'm not a fan of wayland or whatever
<jackdaniel>
limitation is more painful when you consider distribution for Windows or OSX - that requires installing X-server by hand
<JuanDaugherty>
no, i'm not interested in those platforms for this
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<JuanDaugherty>
my default gui is smalltalk, so squeak can handle them
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<JuanDaugherty>
('this' being a number cl packages with generic windowing interfaces)
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<jmercouris>
pjb: well, writing code with dependencies in mind
<jmercouris>
and consider also the fact that cl21 has changes to the way you deal with hashes, etc
<jmercouris>
this WILL be inconsistent to how others deal with them
<jmercouris>
and this will cause friction
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<_death>
CL is a product of a variety of traditions, languages, people.. it is not a theoretical ideal of a single mind, so inconsistencies are expected. that "CL21" thing is one person's (abandoned?) take on how things should be, with its own inconsistencies and oddities.. its name was not well chosen
<jmercouris>
_death: Not sure if it is abandoned, maybe
<jmercouris>
it is public domain, and a long time since no updates
<jmercouris>
but, I don't want to get into the "what is abandoned" debate
<jmercouris>
also agreed, the name is terrible
<_death>
so if you flip "CL21" in your mind to "SOMEGUYSLISP" you'll see that there's no real reason to even mention it
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<jmercouris>
interesting thought experiment
<JuanDaugherty>
it's not abandonded if cl21.org being up means that
<flip214>
beach: Congratulations!
<flip214>
though, TBH, Croatia is much nearer to us ;)
* JuanDaugherty
took a bbc quiz to find 'your secret nationality' and it came out Romanian
<JuanDaugherty>
*secret nationality
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<JuanDaugherty>
oh had personality types in mind thought I'd said that
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<JuanDaugherty>
my impression is that caveats aside, if you are reasonably conscientious about explicitly invoking gc in sbcl it's not really a performance hit
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* JuanDaugherty
wonders what the diff between ql clim and mcclim is
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* JuanDaugherty
now, having tried the demo, understands what was meant about X being at issue
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<JuanDaugherty>
fwiw, jackdaniel 1974 was a lot like 2018 with appropriate substitutions, e.g. 'nixon' for 'trump'
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<asarch>
"The following restarts are available: SKIP :R1 skip (IN-PACKAGE ASDF-USER), RETRY :R2 retry (IN-PACKAGE ASDF-USER), ..., Break 1 ASDF0[5]>"
<asarch>
How can I give an answer to clisp?
<Bike>
probably type ":r1" or whatever and hit enter
<asarch>
D'oh!
<asarch>
Thank you!
<asarch>
I was pressing A-C-R-:-1 :-P
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<beach>
flip214: I'll forward the congrats to my (admittedly small) family. She is a French citizen.
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<beach>
flip214: Unless, of course, you meant to congratulate me for having a near-complete version of the specification if the SICL garbage collectors of course.
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<Xach>
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<jackdaniel>
JuanDaugherty: clim system is just one of subsystems of McCLIM
<jackdaniel>
loading only CLIM won't give you a working GUI library
<jackdaniel>
perhaps we should change the system name to avoid such confusion
<jackdaniel>
or, even better, provide one system for core McCLIM system and a few other for extensions / applications / demos
<jackdaniel>
right now core system is split into at least 6 systems afaik
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<JuanDaugherty>
i did mcclim.
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<JuanDaugherty>
when I went to run the demo hit the X rendering extension thing
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<JuanDaugherty>
as far the confusion, it was only at the point of looking at what ql offerred in re "CLIM" and by intuition I made the right choice
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<jeosol>
morning guys
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<JuanDaugherty>
moin jeosol
<jeosol>
what is the better way to run a lisp code remotely?. I will be away soon, but I can ssh to the linux box. I don't have executables created right now. I am aware of nohup but then I need to create some script? non?
<jeosol>
or executable
<jeosol>
morning JuanDuagherty.
<JuanDaugherty>
there are a variety of solutions
<JuanDaugherty>
right now I just run in tmux and detach
<jeosol>
I wanted to see if you guys do something special, or the old, normal linux way is okay
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<jeosol>
I did some search I saw "screen ..." and nohup
<JuanDaugherty>
in the past I used detachtty
<JuanDaugherty>
and there are lisp implementation pkgs that handle
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<JuanDaugherty>
i think ur supposed to just be able to use shebang in sbcl but I've never tried it
<jeosol>
ok, thanks. did a quick read up on tmux, and other options.
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<jeosol>
ok, I need to give this some thought since I'm still testing. for now, I just create new functions (to test new options) and just run it after loading.
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<jmercouris>
jeosol: you can run slime still on a remote machine
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<White_Flame>
jeosol: you can also just ssh -X into your remote box and launch emacs, to bring up a remote environment on your screen
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<White_Flame>
while it's simple, it can hurt though if you drop your connection at an inopportune time
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<equwal>
I used to do remote lisp programming to keep logs of IRC. TRAMP works really well once you get it setup and move past the learning cure: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/TrampMode. Also, there is no input lag, and no risk of data loss.
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<equwal>
The basic idea is it seamlessly sets up your buffers to download, be edited, and upload when you do normal file-open and save commands in emacs.