<sabrac>
PuercoPop: It also has transaction and isolation level enhancements that look useful. Will ping the author.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<equwal>
Good morning!
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<no-defun-allowed>
hi beach
<beach>
no-defun-allowed: New nick?
<no-defun-allowed>
hm, matrix updated i guess
<no-defun-allowed>
it used to say theemacsshibe[m]
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<SaganMan>
Morning beach
<SaganMan>
lol no-defun-allowed
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<no-defun-allowed>
:^)
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<no-defun-allowed>
(expt (exp 1.0d0) (* pi (sqrt -1))) is actually pretty accurate
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<samla>
I'm on my bus to work and I just wondered: can deftypes contain arbitrary code? That is, is it like defmacro but must only return a valid type form?
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<LdBeth>
samla: yes
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<samla>
Nice haha :-)
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<beach>
xificurC: But it's best to set it back before you start interacting again.
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<_death>
(setf *print-case* :downcase)
<beach>
Yeah, that's better.
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<shka>
good day
<beach>
Hello shka.
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<xificurC>
_death: thanks, that's safer than twiddling with readtable-case :)
<beach>
Still not perfect.
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<xificurC>
beach: in which way, might be enough for my simple use case
<beach>
Well, you haven't told us the details about your use case. But this one: (let ((*print-case* :downcase)) (print '|aB|)) won't print the B in lower case.
<beach>
And you didn't tell us whether only entirely upper-case symbols were concerned.
<xificurC>
I just have a bunch of well behaved symbols and keywords and want to print them lowercased. No mixed cases on the symbols, everything was read in with default settings, no bars
<beach>
Good.
<shka>
it sound suspecious
<shka>
*sounds
<xificurC>
:)
<xificurC>
shka: the use case?
<shka>
yup
<shka>
why lowercase specificly?
<xificurC>
ah that. taste
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<shka>
riiiiiiiight
<xificurC>
?
<shka>
in that case i think it is not worth it
<shka>
i mean, do only things you must do
<shka>
why forcing language out of its design
<shka>
?
<xificurC>
I was told to do it. I could only go back and argue. If it's this simple to get it done, then that's the path of least resistance
<shka>
well, i guess...
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<shka>
it does not make idea good anyway
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<xificurC>
it doesn't pose any issues for now either way
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<xificurC>
hehe, *print-case* doesn't seem to work with keywords
<trittweiler>
xificurC, You may also want to have a look at the ~( FORMAT directive
<beach>
xificurC: Oh?
<xificurC>
trittweiler: I know ~( , unfortunately it doesn't fit this task.
<xificurC>
beach: scratch that
<xificurC>
works
<beach>
Whew!
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<dadabidet>
hello, any website available when I can exercise myself with lisp?
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<shka>
dadabidet: practical common lisp is largely avaialable for free, and so is PAIP
<beach>
dadabidet: Some books are available on the web. Are you looking for something more sophisticated?
<shka>
both excelent for various reasons
<dadabidet>
Im just a beginner and I learn by practice
<dadabidet>
I already know python, C, etc
<dadabidet>
I like to use functional programming when I can
<beach>
dadabidet: So what are you looking for in a website that would support your way of learning?
<shka>
dadabidet: i think that you should pick a book
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<xificurC>
I think he wants koans
<beach>
dadabidet: Ah, you know Common Lisp in that a particularly "functional" programming language in that sense, though it supports a functional style among others.
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<shka>
land of lisp advocates for functional style in common lisp
<beach>
I am sorry to hear that.
<shka>
why?
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<beach>
I am just partly joking. I think it would be sad not to take advantage of the excellent object system.
<shka>
oh, obviously
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<shka>
but you can mix the two
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<beach>
That's different.
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<shka>
or you can simply provide protocols with inmutable objects
<beach>
I take "advocate a functional style" to mean not to use mutation.
<shka>
that's what it means nowdays
<dadabidet>
Im more interested in a code challenge than a long, boring book about lisp
<dadabidet>
I want to write code
<shka>
land of lisp is not boring
<shka>
:P
<xificurC>
it often gets relaxed not to use visible mutations
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<beach>
dadabidet: You can get exercises from some of those books without reading the text, if that's what you want to do.
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<dadabidet>
I want to learn it quickly, I don't want to read long explanations. I want something that explains this == that and it does this used like this
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<beach>
xificurC: So how do the koans work? Do you have to type your code as input to a REPL or something?
<dadabidet>
not some long novel about how to use lisp and why and how blablabla
<beach>
dadabidet: You can get exercises from some of those books without reading the text, if that's what you want to do.
<beach>
dadabidet: Your learning style is very risky though. If you know anything about programming already, you know that its main purpose is communication with other humans. Just because your program "works", does not mean it is suitable for such communication.
<dadabidet>
then call me an autist I guess
<beach>
dadabidet: And that's fine as long as you don't need to ask for help. Because then, the people you ask might require you to use widely accepted conventions.
<dadabidet>
conventions are for psycho rigid people and normative slaves
<beach>
dadabidet: But if you just want to fix your own code, not ask for help, then sure, any exercise will do. The koans, the exercises in PAIP, etc.
<beach>
dadabidet: Yes, I see where this is going.
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<dadabidet>
Ill get by, thanks for the book suggestions
<beach>
Good luck.
<dadabidet>
:)
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<dadabidet>
is scheme easier to learn than lisp?
<pjb>
xificurC: *print-case* works perfectly with keywords: (let ((*print-case* :downcase)) (prin1-to-string :foo)) #| --> ":foo" |#
<antoszka>
dadabidet: It's a smaller language, not making it necessarily easier to learn, as you still need to get things done in the end.
<beach>
dadabidet: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, so you won't get a straight answer.
<pjb>
dadabidet: for example, one big problem I had trying to learn lisp with scheme, is that each time I came back to it the language or idiom was different. It went from r3rs to r5rs, and depending on the computer to various scheme implementations each with different variants and extensions. It was very confusing.
<pjb>
dadabidet: I only took off when I encountered Common Lisp, since then the language was the same both in time and space.
<pjb>
dadabidet: now, about ease of learning, I would say that's a consideration only for your first programming language. So for children, I would say, learn scheme first. And then you will learn real ("industrial strength") programming languages.
<beach>
pjb: I don't think dadabidet is interested in idioms or industrial programming.
<schweers>
If we count Common Lisp as an industrial language, then it seems large parts of industry don’t like industrial languages ;-P
<schweers>
at least not all of them
<pjb>
The industry of math theorem production…
<beach>
schweers: They probably don't respect conventions either.
<schweers>
hmm … I guess it depends on which conventions. It seems to me that every company has their own „coding conventions“, so I guess they don’t respect them.
<pjb>
Convention and style are to be broken, but only with better conventions and better style. (and as always, "better" and "best" have a local definitiokn).
<pjb>
Imagine the convention police coming to Church and telling them that with his lambda-calculus he wasn't following the conventions and style of Turing Machine programming!
<xificurC>
pjb: yes, I wrote a couple lines after that I misspoke
<pjb>
Oh, it referenced that. Ok.
<beach>
schweers: That's a bad sign according to my experience. It usually means that someone with power has his or her own ideas and is ready and willing to impose them on others.
<pjb>
It's how it works, indeed.
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<schweers>
I have seen one company, where – if I recall correctly – they mandated where to put curly braces for C# and C++ code. Which I guess is the most important thing in a programming project.
<xificurC>
beach: I think I did the koans a very, very long time ago, but not sure anymore, might have been a dream :) The README shows the simplest use is to run `sh meditate.sh` to see immediate feedback on file changes. So one is expected to fill in a blank in a file, save it and see the result in the terminal
<beach>
schweers: I wouldn't necessarily frown upon such stuff. They could very well have tools that use regular expressions to parse code, and such tools might require more rigor than what the compiler requires.
<pjb>
schweers: the point is that when one convention is followed, it allows for automatic detection of problems, and to ignore these low level considerations.
<xificurC>
so no REPL in default setup, although noone is forcing you to not use one
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<beach>
xificurC: I guess I'll have to see for myself sometime.
<schweers>
As far as I know they did not. But I can’t help but wonder that such discussion only befalls languages with „syntax“. I.e. not the lisp family.
<pjb>
schweers: of course, this works only if your convention aim at making invisible unimportant things like parentheses or braces, not if it put one of them per line…
<schweers>
beach: also: wouldn’t you frown upon using regexps to parse code?
<beach>
schweers: Heh, I guess so. :)
<beach>
schweers: It is less necessary in Common Lisp than in other languages.
<pjb>
To have fun, I would write a C compiler using only regexps, that's able to compile most of the C code out there…
<schweers>
beach: I know, which is my point
<xificurC>
replicating a parser to get an AST for some languages is really complicated though :) See shellcheck for a good example
<pjb>
Notice that no actual program has an infinite level of embedded expressions.
<beach>
schweers: To get a somewhat maintainable code base, GNU Emacs has some interesting use of the combination of C macros and Unix tools.
<schweers>
I know, I tried to understand it at one point.
<pjb>
clisp, similarly.
<pjb>
and actually, any sizeable C program.
<beach>
Yeah.
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<xificurC>
also solving the longest running debate of spaces or tabs
<beach>
That looks just awful to me.
<beach>
Am I missing something?
<xificurC>
an /s probably
<xificurC>
it is awful. Offtopic, sorry
<LdBeth>
I’m allergic to none descriptive symbols
<xificurC>
you mean like F2(jtdeal){A h,y,z;I at,d,*hv,i,i1,j,k,m,n,p,q,*v,wt,*yv,*zv;UI c,s,t,x=jt->rngM[jt->rng]; ?
<LdBeth>
Exactly
<LdBeth>
In my opinion good source code should be self descriptive.
<schweers>
some people seem to seriously claim that long names take longer to type
<schweers>
my only complaint with discriptive (i.e. long) names is that they take up screen real estate. But that’s a tradeoff I am mostly willing to make.
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<xificurC>
I'm not sure if I would agree, although you haven't given all the details. Of course this example was far over any limit
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<xificurC>
sbcl script starts a subprocess with uiop:run-program. Hitting Ctrl-C stops sbcl but not the subprocess. Is this expected?
<shka>
xificurC: yes
<xificurC>
shka: so the parent process doesn't forward the sigterm? Can I tell it to?
<shka>
first of, it is not sigterm
<xificurC>
sigint, sorry
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<shka>
anyway, run-program simply waits for program
<shka>
but that's one way street
<xificurC>
signals are complicated.. I'm reading a SIGINT is sent to a process group, does that mean run-program doesn't make the forked process belong to the same process group?
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<xificurC>
also, why does it have to be a 1way street? When the parent receives the SIGINT it could forward the signal to all children
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<jackdaniel>
xificurC: one way of doing that is using sb-sys package (which is not part of SBCL's API I think) and provide your own sigint-handler with sb-ext:enable-interrupt
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<jackdaniel>
as of terminating process group, sb-ext:process-kill has optional third argument whom, which allows sending a signal to a process group
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<jackdaniel>
regarding "waiting for program", that's what :wait argument is for, by default it waits synchronously for process execution, but if it is fed with NIL, then normal execution may happen concurrently (without spawning a new thread)
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<malice`>
Hi! I'm looking for way to reduce verbosity of log4cl. Tried documentation but it's not precise (or I'm not smart enough). I want to turn off logging of log4cl:info
<jackdaniel>
xificurC: example how to replace SBCL's sigint handler (and other implementations) may be find in slime sources (swank/sbcl.lisp)
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<xificurC>
jackdaniel: the almighty internet claims pressing Ctrl-C already sends SIGINT to every process within the foreground process group. I'm contemplating why is this different than what a shell script does - unless you force a process into the background it does terminate the subprocess when receiving a SIGINT. I've come to think of this as sane
<malice`>
Is there a simple way to do that? There are log levels defined, I hoped there would be some global log-level
<jackdaniel>
malice`: type (log:config :warn)
<malice`>
jackdaniel: thanks
<pjb>
xificurC: because the shell manages process groups!
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<xificurC>
you're saying "like a shell", but when you're running 1 process and waiting for it synchronously to finish, do you see any reason why hitting Ctrl-C shouldn't kill that subprocess? :)
<pjb>
run-program doesn't do that. So either you re-implement it using fork exec etc, or you wrap your command in another command that would setpgid for you.
<malice`>
jackdaniel: Thanks. I found the log-config function now, although the documentation on the quickdocks was weirdly formatted which discouraged me from reading it. I believe it might be outdated since it does not mention any exported symbols from log package. Thanks anyway!
<pjb>
Then of course you would also have to manage foreground/background, because run-process would fork a background process, abd sbcl would stay foreground (connected to the terminal), so typing C-c in the terminal would still send SIGINT to sbcl, not to the background process.
<jackdaniel>
I'm recommending going to the library intself and read the documentation. I'm highly suspicious about documentation scrappers quality whatsoever
<pjb>
xificurC: it may be instructive to study the sources of bash (or a simplier shell).
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<jackdaniel>
itself*
<xificurC>
ugh
<xificurC>
thanks for the pointers jackdaniel and pjb
<jackdaniel>
sure
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<pjb>
xificurC: of course, you can also handle SIGINT in sbcl, and call kill on the subprocess if that's what you want to do.
<xificurC>
one more thing on what you wrote jackdaniel, you wrote I can use sb-ext:process-kill to kill a process group, but pjb said cl doesn't manage process groups at all
<xificurC>
so if I were to manage process groups Ctrl-C would actually suffice
<jackdaniel>
CL as standard doesn't have notion of process at all and run-program is an extension
<jackdaniel>
just type C-. on sb-ext:process-kill
<pjb>
to kill a process group you use killpg(2) instead of kill(2). check the sources of sb-ext:process-kill
<xificurC>
ok, thanks
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<Xach>
jackdaniel: what does C-. do?
<jackdaniel>
Xach: my bad, I meant M-. (mistake)
<Xach>
ah bummer i thought i would learn a cool new key today!
<jackdaniel>
C-. is unocuppied on my session, so if you have similar setting you may bind to it arbitrarily cool thing! ;-)
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<beach>
jmercouris: I am now convinced that I need domain-specific functionality in the HIR viewer, like collapsing or expanding basic blocks, collapsing or expanding nested functions (without having to identify every node explicitly), etc.
<beach>
Since I am not up to writing plug-ins in C++ for existing graph viewers, I think I need for it to be a CLIM application.
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<phoe>
How can I reliably contact Dave Cooper? Is the @genworks.com mail good enough?
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<Xach>
phoe: he is here on irc also.
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<phoe>
Xach: gasp. Where?
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<phoe>
So many months on #lisp and I have not noticed that
<Xach>
gendl is the nickname
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<phoe>
Xach: thanks!
<phoe>
gendl: so, well, hey
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<jfrancis_>
Is there any way to make slime *not* barf when a returned string contains a UTF-8 character? I'd be perfectly fine with almost anything except the exception (munge the string, show me in hex, show me gibberish ASCII - anything but failing).
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<jfrancis_>
sorry, when a return string contains a NON-UTF-8 character
<jfrancis_>
I'm sure I could hack slime to strip non-ASCII before displaying, but I was hoping there's a knob I could tweak, instead, and not have to maintain a local patch.
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<jfrancis_>
(bleeding-edge sbcl and slime on both Mac and Linux, if it matters)
<Bike>
i've never had it barf. did you build emacs in some unicode negative environment or something?
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<trittweiler>
jfrancis_, In what way does it barf? Is this an error signaled in Common Lisp? In that case, find the source and that place should perhaps offer a restart to replace the character? Would still need to modify the right places where stuff is being evaluated to invoke that restart automatically.
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<jfrancis_>
Naturally, I can't reproduce it at this exact second. We use HipChat at my company. I'm using the HipChat REST API to write a 'bot to do "work stuff". It's working quite well, unless I display a string back to slime that contains an emoticon. At that point, slime barfs with a "non-UTF-8" error. Let me see if I can get it to happen again so I can quote it exactly.
<Josh_2>
jfrancis_: are you trying to automate your job?
<dlowe>
aren't we all?
<dlowe>
and if not, why not?
<jfrancis_>
Hah! Don't I wish. I work from home, so I have considered outsourcing it, paying somebody half my salary, and sitting on the beach drinking mai tais with the difference.
<Josh_2>
xD it's like the story of the macro
<optikalmouse>
jfrancis_: that's clever; does the HipChat REST API require any special permissions?
<optikalmouse>
as in, do I need to bug my tech support department? or can I just proceed to automate my job?
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<phoe>
jfrancis_: huh? why would an emoticon be non-UTF-8 though?
<phoe>
Could you get it to store the response in some kind of byte string so we can analyze if it actually is UTF-8 or not?
<Bike>
perhaps it's a new emote that something in the decoding isn't aware of.
<flip214>
the emoticon is so sad that the library crashes as well
<jfrancis_>
About to get in the car. Let me capture the problem when I get to the other end with access to the chat system that's causing the problem.
<jfrancis_>
It also pukes when users send strings containing non-ASCII chars in their names (like umlauts, etc).
<Bike>
unusual.
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<phoe>
Weird. Very weird.
<flip214>
perhaps it's an UCS16 problem really, with the emoticons being outside that range
<flip214>
or data comes back as latin1 or so
<flip214>
jfrancis_: if you can, capture the slime network traffic, so that we can see which bytes get transmitted really
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<jfrancis_>
I can do that. Will likely be a few hours. Sigh. Was hoping this was a "just (setf ...) and the problem goes away kind of thing". :D
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<flip214>
jfrancis_: yeah, but a 64bit CPU has so much addressable memory that it'll take some time to find out _which_ byte to SETF ;)
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<jfrancis_>
I'll just set them all. That'll show 'em.
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<jfrancis_>
Then the next problem is to find a working mqtt library for CL. There really doesn't seem to be one (that's been touched in ten years).
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<gendl>
phoe: Hi, thanks for your inquiry about CLF.
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<gendl>
We've been moving kind of slowly in the summer but the ASDF fundraiser is planned to launch in September.
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<gendl>
The meetings are supposed to be monthly but the July one didn't really happen.
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<gendl>
We also got a volunteer who completely revamped common-lisp.net, which should be launched by September as well.
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<gendl>
There are other bits of news but maybe here isn't the best place to spew them randomly. I'm hoping the new common-lisp.net will start doing a much better job of tracking CLF activity. It will also merge the pretty much defunct cl-foundation.org site - the plan is that site will start redirecting to a section of common-lisp.net which gives information about the CLF.
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<phoe>
gendl: awesome! Thanks for the heads-up, and if you need any help, please poke me.
<malice`>
Can I anyhow get the behaviour of :after method on initialize-instance for conditions? I have a base condition that I wanted to extend through "inheritance", but initialize-instance is not supported as conditions are not required to be CLOS objects
<malice`>
Okay, workaround: custom function that is used to throw the error and does what constructor does...
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<ebrasca>
Hi
<phoe>
hey ebrasca
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<tfb>
malice`: you can also just make the report function be a generic function and just use call-next-method in it
<ebrasca>
phoe: Is waveflow someting like org mode?
<phoe>
ebrasca: nope, not at all
<phoe>
it's not meant for text documents
<phoe>
and it's not yet finished
<phoe>
I'll write a blogpost detailing the why and the how once I finish writing, documenting and testing it.
<malice`>
tfb: right
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<ebrasca>
phoe: But in org mode you can manage tasks over time.
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<phoe>
ebrasca: Yes, but you cannot* do it programmatically.
<phoe>
*of course you can, it's emacs, but it defeats the point
<ebrasca>
phoe: mmm org mode ++ for tasking in repl.
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<ebrasca>
phoe: How are you?
<phoe>
ebrasca: I'm okay, thinking of setting up a Lisp CI&buildfarm on Linux, Windows and macOS.
<beach>
minion: Please tell malice` about CLOS-object.
<minion>
malice`: CLOS-object: There is no definition of the term "CLOS object" in the Common Lisp HyperSpec. If there were, it would probably be "any Common Lisp datum", because every Common Lisp datum is an instance of a class. Perhaps when you say "CLOS object" you really mean "standard object", i.e. the kind of object you usually get when you instantiate a class defined by DEFCLASS
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<malice`>
right
<malice`>
sorry for being incorrect
<ebrasca>
phoe: wow buildfarm sound good, what is CI?
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<ebrasca>
phoe: Have fun.
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<phoe>
ebrasca: you too!
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<jasom>
CI used to mean continuous integration. Now it seems to just mean "we run a few tests automatically on each commit"
<aeth>
exactly
<jasom>
though to be fair, most small shops do continuous integration by default thanks to cvs/svn/git/hg becoming ubiquitous
<aeth>
thanks to git branches being confusing.
<aeth>
If I'm reading the article correct, the way you do CI is to merge into a mainline (master in git, trunk in SVN) multiple times a day.
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<jasom>
aeth: the main thing is that everyone is developing based off of the mainline and the mainline us updated more often than once per day.
<aeth>
At least of the git repos that are FOSS, for branches there's master, past and current stable versions (if the project is still versioned traditionally, which is increasingly rare), and maybe a few experimental feature branches.
<jasom>
CI was taking "nightly integration" to the extreme
<aeth>
CI replaces "current stable version(s)" with master, afaik
<jasom>
no it has nothing to do with "current stable versions" if your mainline is super buggy, but it's what developers are basing their changes off of it's still CI
<jasom>
an alpha version of non FOSS could be integrated nightly or continoussly, for example
<jasom>
anyway, gtg
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<aeth>
I thought CI meant (in part) that you deploy from master.
<aeth>
I guess not
<aeth>
Ah, CI/CD is a thing separate from CI.
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<ebrasca>
Some tips with git branches and cl?
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<phoe>
ebrasca: these concepts are orthogonal to each other.
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<klltkr>
Yo
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<phoe>
heyy
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