sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<victorSN>
Is there a live production system using elements and Confidential Transactions?
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<maaku>
victorSN: there are some live production systems using elements, although the ones I know of have closed membership under commercial agreements
<maaku>
you might want to take your questions to #sidechains-dev
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<victorSN>
Will do, the channel seemed a bit dead :)
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<eck>
b pr
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<waxwing>
so is it fair to say that schnorr will be very complementary to MAST given that you can imagine typical applications may still require many sigs, so combining them will be important to achieve good scale/privacy win for larger contracts(branches)?
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<sipa>
waxwing: i'd say so
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<maaku>
waxwing: yes. the privacy benefit is especially true.
<maaku>
waxwing: nearly every smart contract, including lightning-like things, can be resolved by "all parties are online, agree, and sign their consent". key aggregation (different from signature aggregation!) plus MAST allows every single one to be "One EC signature, or <hash>" in the optimistic case
<maaku>
Even things we don't normally think of as smart contracts, like 2-of-3 2FA wallet signers (GreenAddress, BitGo Instant), could use key aggregation and MAST such that normal bitcoin payments from a single person to a single person look like "One EC signature, or <hash>"
<maaku>
So makes use of smart contracts undistinguishable from regular payments in the expected, optimistic everyone-online-to-sign-and-agrees scenario.
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<maaku>
It also is effective at hiding signing policy. Use the key tree idea to break up an arbitrary monotonic boolean function of signing keys into all possible minimal satisficing sets, do key aggregation, and reveal just that single key.
<a87ry5>
adiabat: regarding your discreet log paper, it occurred to me novation might be possible without requiring all signers to be online if covenants are used. would require triple the number of transactions to be pregenerated, however. have to think about it some more, however.
<maaku>
Which tells you, at best, that there were other possible spending conditions, and maybe infer a little about how likely this condition was based on its depth in the tree, but that's it.
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<esotericnonsense>
hm. do we consider LN 'short-term' bitcoin development? :)
<esotericnonsense>
i'm rereading the whitepaper because I've been informed of a possibly erroneous conclusion I somehow drew before
<sipa>
no
<esotericnonsense>
if A and B have a channel with say, 1 BTC routable in the A->B direction, and B and C have a channel with 0.2 BTC routable B->C
<esotericnonsense>
(and C has no other channels, this is the entire network) is it at all possible for > 0.2 BTC to be routed between A and C offchain
<esotericnonsense>
I can't see a way to make it work
<gmaxwell>
esotericnonsense: only by using other channels
<gmaxwell>
you can't route more than the max-flow between you and the destination without setting up new channels.
<esotericnonsense>
right, so if C has a number of open channels for which the sum of the other' parties direct allocation is Y
<esotericnonsense>
Y is the maximum they can ever receive without opening new channels
<esotericnonsense>
(or rather that they can have as a final balance, they could transact a total of more than that)
<esotericnonsense>
hm.
<gmaxwell>
Right. The maximum they can get from any given other party can be lower still due to interior bottlenecks.
<esotericnonsense>
yes of course. I think the maximum flow is intuitively obvious to me, I spent a while today trying to come up with a way of transferring a balance from a channel to another channel and it didn't seem possible because anything directly involving three parties seems possible for two to cheat if offchain.
<gmaxwell>
there actually is a design for a multipaty channel, but they need to use economic incentives to avoid cheating.
<esotericnonsense>
e.g. getting from a state in which A + B is 200 and B + C is 100 to a state in which A + B is 100 and B + C is 200 does not seem possible because A and B can cooperatively change their allocations to whatever they want from the original
<esotericnonsense>
yes
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<esotericnonsense>
(I don't think my previous comment is very explanatory, in fact it's not that well fleshed out in my mind, basically the ability to somehow add a third participant to an existing channel seems impossible)
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<esotericnonsense>
pre-emptive channel opens are not as useful as I (ignorantly) thought, then.
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<maaku>
esotericnonsense: I consider payment channels to be near-term, yes.
<maaku>
compared to say, things that actually require consensus changes