sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<ecurrencyhodler>
Hi. So I know this is about theoretical ideas about crypto, but I was wondering if someone could help understand what a core wallet can or can't do if I don't port foward and initialize bitcoind
<ecurrencyhodler>
Bitcoin irc is a bit crowded and I can't seem to get someones attention
<esotericnonsense>
ecurrencyhodler: replied in #bitcoin.
<ecurrencyhodler>
ty
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<maaku>
coded and working, but needs to be updated to the latest spec
<JackH>
I missed the topics on the last two links, thanks maaku
<maaku>
will have bip numbers assigned soon, and begin the process of formally proposing to Bitcoin Core in the next month
<arubi>
wait, generalized mast?
<kanzure>
maaku: maybe wait to see what the script 2.0 people are going to be saying
<arubi>
/reading
<maaku>
arubi: the last link is the intuitive explanation
<maaku>
kanzure: "script 2.0 people" ?
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<JackH>
there is a script 2.0 coming? Is that the activation of all the opcodes you refer to kanzure ?
<kanzure>
script 2.0 *proposals*
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<maaku>
JackH: no, there's not, but there's lots of people working on new script-like things or various improvements
<maaku>
kanzure: are you talking about something specific?
<kanzure>
just an upcoming presentation
<arubi>
is that the script in bip114?
<maaku>
so there is another MAST proposal, bip114, and the largest delay to activating MAST will probably be gathering consensus about which approach to take first
<arubi>
I've been following bip114 closely, the new vault bip (seems to be replacing it the old one) is amazing imo
<maaku>
I'm obviously strongly biased towards my own approach, but objectively I think the incremental, small, compartmentalized changes are more likely to be accepted by the conservative dev team than bip114's comprehensive overhaul
<maaku>
my proposal is for two very small changes, both just a few lines of code, which gives us MAST (and other things too!)
<maaku>
bip114 is a massive patch set to the consensus code on the other hand
<JackH>
what is the actual difference feature wise between the two?
<arubi>
it is, but it's also a huge upgrade to bitcoin script, which is what I like about it the most
<arubi>
and p2wpkv0 with scriptwitcodes and sig \ pubkey aggregation :)
<arubi>
but I'll go back to reading yours now
<JackH>
there is also the fact that, seeing how hard it is to get patches through right now, anything we can deploy is welcome
<arubi>
the proposal was pretty big. stuff like checksigfromstack, pushtxdata, new treatment for cltv \ csv, signatures at constant length
<arubi>
that's not even mentioning the mast part
<maaku>
arubi: an omnibus proposal will never, and should never make it into bitcoin core.
<arubi>
I played with it around locally, it's really great. the new opcodes and new sighash enables covenants
<maaku>
that's not how bitcoin development works. too dangerous
<maaku>
There are good reasons to upgrade script. It is an interesting research area. It is actually what I work on most of the time in my dayjob right now.
<arubi>
I see what you're saying. it was divided to many bips fwiw
<maaku>
The tail-call MAST proposal came from working on a script upgrade, where I realized these two simple tricks were deployable and got bang for the buck
<arubi>
well, we're not short of segwit script versions yet
<maaku>
i think if you want to get something in bitcoin core, work on making it incremental and easily reviewable
<arubi>
maaku, bip114 is exactly that, it's divided to many bips, I was able to follow it easily and use it successfully
<maaku>
-or-, make it modular with a single entry point if you really must replace the whole thing, but that's a many-year effort to roll out
<arubi>
I'll read through the two posts. I don't have an intuition to what tail call means yet
<maaku>
arubi: I'm not talking about the description in the bip. I mean the code. It makes changes to so many parts of the consensus code -- script, witness, signature validation. it adds consensus criticality to data that wasn't there before. it adds multi-mode behavior to functions that use to have one purpose, etc.
<arubi>
yes, I agree maaku. it can't possibly go in in a "single sweep"
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<maaku>
MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY on the other hand is a single "case" statement in the script evaluator, entirely self-contained, and tail-call eval is a 3-4 line change with clear semantics to the bottom of one function
<JackH>
maaku, since you sit with this a lot, do you have some higher level overview of what you can do with the MAST features?
<arubi>
so is it that the final value on stack is treated as a script in itself?
<arubi>
well, I shouldn't guess. just read
<maaku>
you can separate those, look at them in isolation and show their correctness (maybe even prove their correctness to the C++ standard)
<maaku>
that's the bar we should have for consensus code, and bip114 is too complex to achieve that
<maaku>
JackH: you read the second email?
<maaku>
that's the most I've written down about it so far
<JackH>
reading now
<JackH>
you have this running locally?
<arubi>
I'm a bit biased maaku, I've been following bip114 since v0.13.1 and implemented a bunch of it. I have a lot of fun using it. sure that's not proper review, but I didn't find inconsistencies yet, and I do run the regtest network with other versions :)
<maaku>
arubi: essentially, yes, the final item is treated as a script (if there is more than one item remaining, aka non-CLEANSTACK)
<maaku>
arubi: oh sorry I didn't know you worked on it or I would have expressed that a little bit more carefully ;) at least you got my honest opinion
<arubi>
oh not worked on it at all, just independently!
<arubi>
I did do two PRs to the current repo with a simple tx example for tests and the bip, but no response yet :)
<maaku>
JackH: this was part of the elements network that we ran at BC-2 workshop in Japan over the summer. it works and has been used for things.
<arubi>
independently in my own bitcoin toy thing, tried to interface with it and it went very well
<maaku>
actually the BC-2 version had full recursion, not just single-recursion, which meant it was Turing complete. You could do loops, etc.
<maaku>
I'm obviously not proposing that to bitcoin core (...yet. it would be a soft-fork to add later)
<JackH>
i see you lightly touch the gas issue
<maaku>
The problem with gas (meaning just accounting for resource usage) isn't that you have to do it, but that naive ways of doing it are not good and dangerous
<maaku>
I think it's a solveable problem.
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<maaku>
But there's no reason to bite off that problem now when we can do single-recursion and just leave the door open to soft-forking multi-recursion in the future
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