<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: can you point me to one sample code inside the kernel for me to take a look and learn from there if you can ...the one that is in the userspace..
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<wpwrak_>
sample code of a closed driver ? that would be tricky ;-) i'm not even sure we have such "stubs" in the regular kernel. we shouldn't.
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: no ..not closed driver..the part that you mention the kernel code of the closed driver :)
<wpwrak_>
maybe look at the sites of nvidia or amd-ati. dunno where this sort of stuff lives. i try to give it a very very wide berth ;-)
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<kristianpaul>
No 'ISE' nor 'WebPack' feature version 2013.03 was available
<kristianpaul>
for part 'xc6slx45'.
<kristianpaul>
WAT?
<kristianpaul>
ahh
<kristianpaul>
let see if just was re-request it because newver ise version
<kristianpaul>
yeap
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<nicksydney>
yes i've ben using that pad array also for my power (+) and (-) )
<nicksydney>
:)
<wpwrak_>
i wish someone would resurrect the command-line options of kicad (and in this case especially eeschema). then we could have an up to date "bible" for components as well ...
<nicksydney>
(+) and (-) looks like navel to me...man too long in front of computer i suppose :)
<nicksydney>
love TI datasheet they have sample setup for their product..make it easy for mere mortal like myself :)
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* wpwrak_
wonders where my little parcel from digi-key may be. one entry from memphis just around the time a plane left for south america. then a few hours later another one. did it fall of the plane ? is it almost here ? what does schroedinger say ?
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<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: from my intuition calculation it will reach tomorrow morning :)
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<rjeffries>
an ARM based SOC from RockChip Electronics Ltd opens up to some extent
<rjeffries>
MIWA PlayKey SDK has been authorized for Open Source distribution and development by Rockchip Electronics Ltd.
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<wpwrak_>
(sdk) depends on what is in it. i've seen closed-source libraries with an "open" API called "open" ...
<wpwrak_>
but rockchip is interesting. a source of inexpensive yet potent arms.
<nicksydney>
Allwinner and Rockchip are 2 SoC that are coming out strong from China...Tom Cubie have been releasing few dev boards from both vendors and the linux community around these 2 are not huge but they are making rapid progress
<nicksydney>
hopefully they will open up now...Allwinner has been receptive for the last few months now let's see how Rockchip will follow their step
<rjeffries>
Rockchip has shipped 50 million chips or so I am told
<nicksydney>
rjeffries: more than that i believe
<rjeffries>
wow
<nicksydney>
i don't like they keep on throwing the word 'sdk' it's soo wrong :)...but hey that's my personal opinion :)
<rjeffries>
leveraging china is the way forward I am convinced
<nicksydney>
the dev boards schematics and the whole lot from Tom is open sourced
<rjeffries>
how is his project doing? he is indeed good people
<rjeffries>
but isn't he doing a semi-niche rather high-end system...
<nicksydney>
well i'm sure wpwrak_ can comment on that :)
<rjeffries>
ya
<rjeffries>
<grin>But... is it fully Richard Stallman approved?
<nicksydney>
hahah...no idea
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<wpwrak_>
so far i'm fine with "off the shelf" laptops. no need for crazy one-of-a-kind type critters. besides, i like the things i have to lug around to be tiny. i kinda doubt that's one of his design goals :)
<wpwrak_>
nicksydney: hmm, seems that your intuition was wrong. fedex just scanned the parcel again ... in memphis. things are really slow this time. one day delay at digi-key, one day delay in memphis.
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: yes his design goals was not tiny but open pretty much everything
<wpwrak_>
so it'll hit BUE friday morning. i guess by the evening i'll know whether fedex are up to date with their "gifts" to deserving customs officials ...
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: well i can't fight mother nature :)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: it's the bad weather in US...read that it's like worst in 20yrs
<wpwrak_>
bah, that's nothing. we had the hottest week in 100+ years. and did any shipment of advanced electronic components from argentina get delayed because of this ? no, not one !
<wpwrak_>
(of course, a medieval society like the one the unfortunately still current government tries to establish doesn't export electronics, but ...)
<nicksydney>
how hot was it ? over here the hottest it went was close to 50C
<wpwrak_>
38-39 C something like 7-8 days in a row
<wpwrak_>
(real temperature, not "felt" temperature)
<nicksydney>
that's hot !
<wpwrak_>
it can get hotter here as well, but that's usually for 1-2 days
<nicksydney>
on avg over here summer time is between 35-39C consider as "normal"
<wpwrak_>
seems pretty high. i've been to sydney a couple of times and it didn't feel that hot. well, maybe humidity was low.
<nicksydney>
things have changed last few years and it's been super hot nowadays
<nicksydney>
my area is not far from mountain which makes it even worse
<wpwrak_>
ah, can't get enough of that global warning, can't you guys ? :)
<nicksydney>
nah...we are into global warmings.. :)
<nicksydney>
hahaha
<nicksydney>
btw did you ordered more parts for anelok though digi ?
* nicksydney
everyday looked at anelok can't wait to solder it :)
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<wpwrak_>
yeah, more parts. for the changes i described on the list
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<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: components/switch.lib: add SW-SPDT-S4 (on-on switch with four shell pads) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/66f316b
<whitequark>
ifixit has a glimpse of that cable in top right corner
<whitequark>
blue plastic with black bars on it
<larsc>
never seen that before
<whitequark>
same here
* whitequark
really doesn't want to shell out $100 more for a keyboard+case assembly
<wpwrak_>
grey + black sounds like silver
<whitequark>
silver?
<wpwrak_>
silver oxide is black
<whitequark>
and it conducts rather well, right
<wpwrak_>
yup, similar to copper
<wpwrak_>
not sure why you'd prefer is over copper, though
<whitequark>
well, membrane keyboards always use that silvery metal for contacts, and it appears like the flex cable coming out of the keyboard isn't just the cable
<whitequark>
it's the continuation of the actual membranes it uses for detecting keypresses
<whitequark>
so I guess they could cover Al contacts with Ag2O to keep oxide layer conductive... still weird
<wpwrak_>
in any case, if an FPC that previously worked fails, it's either a hairline crack in the cable or a connector coming apart. you can sometimes find hairline cracks by sending test signals through the cable and twisting it to see if you can make the crack open. but such a process could of course just create a defect :)
<wpwrak_>
if the crack is permanent / exists in a stable configuration, then you can use a continuity tester and a needle to search for the problem spot.
<whitequark>
if the crack is inside the keyboard itself I'm fucked though
<whitequark>
it's clamped together
<wpwrak_>
well, as they say, bad sex is better than no sex at all ;-)
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<whitequark>
I sure don't want to know what that poor mouse feels. continuously feeling like you're drowning and yet neither actually drowning nor losing consciousness
<DocScrutinizer05>
A further special property of perfluoropolyethers is their excellent solution power for oxygen and carbon dioxide. They can therefore be used as an oxygen carrier in heart-lung machines or directly as a blood substitute.
<whitequark>
it's in fact significantly more efficient than actual blood at transferring gasses
<whitequark>
it's a pity the organism completely excretes the compound after ~48 hours
<DocScrutinizer05>
a pity that evolution sucks
<whitequark>
being able to hold your breath for ~15 minutes is cool
<DocScrutinizer05>
inventing such weird stuff like red blood cells and missin out on perflourpolyether
<whitequark>
lol
<larsc>
now that we have the technology we can change that ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<whitequark>
by the way, genetic code kinda looks like a software codebase maintained by a lot of very amateur programmers
<whitequark>
absolutely dominated by copy&paste
<larsc>
and lots of dead code
<whitequark>
yeah!
<DocScrutinizer05>
with a lot of cargo cult, eh?
<whitequark>
and don't forget about retrotransposons
<whitequark>
I swear I've seen retrotransposons in software as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
I knew it: life sucks, where's the source?
<whitequark>
heh
<dos1>
where's the compiler?
<whitequark>
why, we know about both cp and cc
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, pop pop pop --- could somebody please find a few anx7805 for me?
<DocScrutinizer05>
incl datasheet
<larsc>
there are certain genes which do nothing but increase the likelyhood that they are choosen over there allele when reproducing
<DocScrutinizer05>
_not_ that 3 pages pamphlet
<larsc>
s/there/their/
<qi-bot>
larsc meant: "their are certain genes which do nothing but increase the likelyhood that they are choosen over their allele when reproducing"
<whitequark>
larsc: I take it you like Dawkins? :]
<larsc>
I read his book
<DocScrutinizer05>
a few == ~1000 maybe
<whitequark>
I didn't actually, but the reference was obvious enough...
<DocScrutinizer05>
for the datasheet, one set is enough
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: no, I'd send you a tar with a thousand pdfs, of course
<wpwrak_>
larsc: i wouldn;t
<whitequark>
not gzipped, that would be cheating
<wpwrak_>
but so quick about saying something in the DNA does "nothing". people have been wrong about that quite a number of times by now ;-)
* DocScrutinizer05
always thought that attack should rrather get run against manufacturers that advertise components and then refuse to sell them
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak_: indeed
<DocScrutinizer05>
buzzword epigenetics
<larsc>
wpwrak_: no, but there is something called junk DNA
<larsc>
which seems to do nothing
<whitequark>
there's stuff like ALU repeats. the only thing they (used to) do is to reinsert themselves into the DNA
<larsc>
but as it turns out some of this junk DNA increases the likelyhood of its own reproduction
<whitequark>
which is because there's such a lot of them
<whitequark>
it's somewhat like a virus, except it only reproduces within a single cell
<whitequark>
iirc about 60% of your genome consists of retrotransposons (of which ALU is one kind)
<larsc>
40
<larsc>
says the wikipedia page
<larsc>
42 actually
<whitequark>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
I still bet kicking all of them out would cause the complete system fail epically
<whitequark>
fortunately that's easy to check
<whitequark>
well, relatively :p
<whitequark>
actually let me check pubmed, I swear someone thought of it already
<wpwrak_>
larsc: still, that doesn't say that it does nothing. it just means that it's "cheating" a bit at evolution
<larsc>
wpwrak_: well you never know if it does nothing
<whitequark>
wpwrak_: but evolution doesn't have a direction. therefore you cannot cheat on it by definition
<DocScrutinizer05>
who knows, maybe they serve as shock absorbers for ionizing rays impacting the molecule, or whatever
<larsc>
wpwrak_: lets say it like this, nobody has observed it doing anything
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: this is actually one hypothesis. they just increase the volume of DNA.
<DocScrutinizer05>
hah, I'm good, no?=
<whitequark>
:p
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: well, i'd call "increasing the chance of reproduction without any external interaction" as sort of cheating :)
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: of course, it's just basically a second-order effect of the same evolutionary mechanisms
<wpwrak_>
larsc: do you think there's life anywhere in the universe outside of earth ? if yes, have you observed it ? ;-)
<whitequark>
it's really not a directional process. it's not designed to select for fitness, it just happens to, in most cases
<larsc>
the organism is just a vehicle for the gene
<larsc>
to drop more dawkins
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, the organism is just a vehicle for my crazy mind
<whitequark>
hmpf, I can't seem to find the right keywords for pubmed
<wpwrak_>
quite a lot of science is of the sort that you watch something very very complex and your experiment setup extracts a very narrow bit of information while being totally oblivious to anything else happening, no matter the magnitude
<DocScrutinizer05>
eventuylly I hope to find a better one ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
(vehicle, that is)
<whitequark>
I'd ask my biologist friends
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: the thought of being able to copy a mind creeps me out
<larsc>
whitequark: iirc venter removed stuff from bacteria and see if it still works
<whitequark>
now if DocScrutinizer06 sleeps with your wife, is that cheating?
<wpwrak_>
so not seeing something do something may simply mean that you haven't looked for specifically that item to do exactly that specific thing under the right circumstances and for the right number of times
<DocScrutinizer06>
wpwrak_: exactly
<whitequark>
wpwrak_: it's a rather philosophical view. by the same logic, we don't actually know whether laws of physics work, we just have a degree of certainty
<wpwrak_>
every once in a while you read in some biochemical research that they recently noticed something that looks utterly trivial and you ask yourself "how could they possibly not have seen this before" ?
<whitequark>
and there's nothing that prevents gravity from stopping working *right now*
<larsc>
whitequark: exactly my though
<whitequark>
philosophically that is
<whitequark>
doesn't mean those laws are useless :p
<larsc>
whitequark: or how do you know that gravity works five meters from where you are standing?
<DocScrutinizer06>
whitequark: incorrect, since those laws are beased on observing effects, not the absense of any effect
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer06: some of them are based on absence of any effect
<DocScrutinizer06>
rarely ever
DocScrutinizer06 is now known as DocScrutinizer05
<whitequark>
for example stability of particles. proton, various nuclei, etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
protons are not stable
<whitequark>
decay of proton has never been observed
<larsc>
it's always a number game, does the math match the observations
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, it takes a while
<whitequark>
how do you know it's not stable?
<DocScrutinizer05>
some 10^30 years or such
<larsc>
he knows ;)
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: i think the "degree of certainty" is exactly what we have even in physics. consider newton vs. einstein. consider "dark matter", "dark energy".
<whitequark>
that's the *lower* limit based on current observations
<whitequark>
standard model says proton doesn't decay. we never seen it either. so it's a hypothesis
<whitequark>
similar case: bismuth. for a long time it was thought that bismuth is stable. afaik we still haven't observe bismuth to decay yet, but it's now considered radioactive, with an incredibly long half-life
<whitequark>
based on some wacky quantum mechanical preductions
<DocScrutinizer05>
6.6×10^33 to 1.29×10^34 years ;-P
<whitequark>
hm?
<DocScrutinizer05>
proton half life
<whitequark>
that's the range for the lower limit
<whitequark>
not lower and upper limit
<whitequark>
are you even reading same article as me? :p
<whitequark>
"To date, all attempts to observe these events have failed. Recent experiments at the Super-Kamiokande water Cherenkov radiation detector in Japan gave lower limits for proton half-life, at 90% confidence level, of 6.6×1033 years via antimuon decay and 8.2×1033 years via positron decay.[3] Newer, preliminary results estimate a half-life of no less than 1.29×1034 years via positron decay.[4]"
<whitequark>
*no less*
<DocScrutinizer05>
oops, ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
this one dot in the exponent, meh!
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, I'm afraid it will take even longer to source anx7805
<whitequark>
hahaha
<wpwrak_>
hurry, before the protons in the chips decay ;-)
<whitequark>
I recall reading a physics encyclopedia as a child (yeah, like you'd read a book... from start to finish) and it talked about LEP and LHC being the bright future projects
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw 286 devices
<whitequark>
to think they're completed now. boggles mind
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: congrats!
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: I did worse: read brockhaus
<DocScrutinizer05>
nights long
<larsc>
boring!
<DocScrutinizer05>
with 9 years old it wasn't
<wpwrak_>
DocScrutinizer05: congratulations. your civilization has discovered "protected mode" now ;-)
* wpwrak_
suddenly feels unexpectedly sane :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
err, you lost me
<wpwrak_>
i think the intel 286 introduced "protected mode"
<wpwrak_>
and i made a pun of how you "discover" things in games like civilization
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: hmm, familiar name
<DocScrutinizer05>
err, I think when I did that, germanium transistors were the newest shit
<whitequark>
ah right, my grandmother used it all the time
<larsc>
whitequark: the wikipedia of the old days ;)
<nicksydney>
morning lads
<larsc>
"When I was a child I'd read the Internet (yeah, like you'd read a book... from start to finish)" ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it been in the left far end corner of my data crystal
<DocScrutinizer05>
next to TV (whatever that means)
<wpwrak_>
starting at 0.0.0.0, all the way to 255.255.255.255 ;-)
<wpwrak_>
luckily, they didn't have ipv6 back then :)
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<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: a very newbies question about neo900 ... in terms of the radio (GSM) the code is not open sourced ? it's from vendor right ?
* nicksydney
learning the difference which part can be open sourced which part cannot :)
<whitequark>
nicksydney: the radio firmware is closed-source of course. I think it's not legally possible to open-source it even if you wanted
<whitequark>
but, what happens in vegas^Wradio stays in radio, and the neo900 component definitely can be OSS
<nicksydney>
whitequark: huh ? vegas ?
<whitequark>
that was a joke
<nicksydney>
whitequark: ahh sorry :)
<nicksydney>
i was reading DocScrutinizer05 post and this post http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1369348&postcount=5 catch my eye as i have the similar question yesterday and wpwrak_ helped me to understand that ... that post mentioned "It's as open and free as you can get - only 3D acceleration needs binary blob" ... now just need to find the code in the kernel that "talk" to this blob to understand how the interaction works.
<nicksydney>
..search through nvidia site but lots and lots of info :)
<dos1>
nicksydney: anything running on main CPU can be free
<dos1>
nicksydney: anything running on modem's internal CPU cannot
<nicksydney>
uhh...it mentioned that it can work without 3D acceleration so there is a software library that can be used ?
<dos1>
long story short :)
<dos1>
ah, yeah, 3d accel is not free
<dos1>
but it's not necessary anyway
<dos1>
the device works without it
<whitequark>
there's ongoing RE projects for all major accelerators
<nicksydney>
so what it means is that inside the kernel (or one of the library) there is a fallback mechanism to run graphics without 3D acceleration from the vendor is this right ?
<dos1>
yup, and there's one for PowerVR as well, but it's kinda stalled...
<whitequark>
ugh, powervr. such a horrendous pile of crap
<nicksydney>
dos1: can you point me to a link that i can read up on please
<dos1>
nicksydney: nah, if you don't want 3D accel, you just don't install nor use it
<dos1>
it's like 3d accel on nvidia gpu before nouveau
<dos1>
framebuffer, 2d accel etc. is all there even in upstream kernel
<nicksydney>
is OpenGL the "library" that linux app mostly use ? or am i thinking the wrong way ?
<dos1>
and if you want 3d, then you install blob from vendor
<nicksydney>
so my thinking is linux app --> opengl --> binary blob
<dos1>
it's OpenGL ES
<whitequark>
opengl is blob
<nicksydney>
OpenGL is blob but OpenGL ES not ?
<whitequark>
opengl es is
<whitequark>
on desktops, regular opengl works in the same way
<dos1>
vendors provide their opengl/opengl es implementations for their hardware as blobs
<whitequark>
you have libGL.so/libGLES.so provided by vendors
<dos1>
opengl (es) itself is an api
<whitequark>
and usually there's an open-source kernel component
<nicksydney>
so for binary blob it's using OpenGL ES but without binary blob it's using 2D accel ... right ?
<whitequark>
it's using framebuffer. it's not necessarily accelerated
<dos1>
nicksydney: if you're launching opengl application without binary blob, it fallbacks to standard mesa software rasterizer
<dos1>
and when you're not launching any 3D stuff, then you usually don't care about opengl at all
<whitequark>
opengl is used to great extent on android to make smooth 2D effects. scrolling and such.
<dos1>
(it's a bit simplified, as there are various techniques to accelerate 2d graphics using opengl)
<nicksydney>
whitequark: (opengl is used to great extent on android to make smooth 2D effects.) --> this is what always gets me all this while i thought that because it is using OpenGL it is doing 3D ...but looks like i was wrong *IT IS* doing 2D but accelerated using opengl
<nicksydney>
dos1: (and when you're not launching any 3D stuff) most UI interfaces (windowing, fonts, etc) are 2D right ?
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<whitequark>
you can use opengl to accelerate 2D or 3D. you can also accelerate 2D without opengl. you can also have a regular non-accelerated framebuffer (just an array of pixels).
<whitequark>
what is available on your platform... depends
<whitequark>
nicksydney: again it depends. android would want to use GL for UI.
<larsc>
nicksydney: 3d looks 2d if you use the right projection
<dos1>
nicksydney: sure. some window managers use opengl for fancy compositing effects
<dos1>
so without it you probably won't launch gnome shell or something like that which doesn't have proper fallback
<whitequark>
it's not just that. you can render fonts from textures, scroll widgets, and so on
<whitequark>
it's generally a good idea *if you have GL*
<dos1>
kwin however works great with compositing disabled
<whitequark>
you'd probably not want to run kwin on neo900 :]
<dos1>
why not? :) I've seen it running on gta01 :D
<whitequark>
i didn't say 'not be able' i said 'not want'
<dos1>
it depends on what you want to achieve ;)
<whitequark>
some of us are trying to use phones as phones, not undersized and overpriced PCs
<dos1>
anyway, there are all those fancy plasma active things
<dos1>
which may be pretty usable on neo900
<nicksydney>
whitequark: (and usually there's an open-source kernel component) .. do you know of any code in the upstream kernel that i can take a look for this part ?
<dos1>
nicksydney: such components generally don't go upstream afaik
<whitequark>
upstream? no idea. i think samsung has successfully upstreamed something.
<whitequark>
the code is usually horrendous
<dos1>
those are mostly just thin-wrappers to make driver GPL compliant and nothing more
<nicksydney>
dos1: so it's just a wrapper that calls the functions in the blob
<dos1>
usually, yes
<dos1>
what's exactly there of course depends on particular vendor
<nicksydney>
whitequark: if i have to dig through upstream which directory is the best bet i could find it ?
<whitequark>
nicksydney: try to look it up in kconfig
<nicksydney>
dos1: yeah i'm just curious want to look at the code and piece things together for my sanity sake :)
<whitequark>
then it's usually straightforward, and you can grep
<nicksydney>
whitequark: in kconfig any particular word i look for ?
<whitequark>
the video section
<dos1>
nicksydney: you can see what nvidia does with their drivers for x86 example, or see some n900 kernel for powervr driver as arm example
<nicksydney>
dos1: n900 = Neo900 ?
<dos1>
Nokia N900
<nicksydney>
whitequark: gotcha..will look it up
<nicksydney>
dos1: n900 kernel available ? any link you know
<dos1>
on neo900 it will look the same or similar if you install 3D blob