Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<wolfspraul>
blist
<wolfspraul>
oops :-)
<wpwrak>
ah, so not everyone is on vacation :)
<kristianpaul>
;-)
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<larsc>
what's vacation?
<wpwrak>
it's a metaphysical phenomenon that explains sometimes long response times of others
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<kristianpaul>
a lied holliday :)
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<qwebirc19053>
help
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<whitequark>
vacation?
<whitequark>
what
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<tickrate>
oops. sorry about 'help'. wrong screen.
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<whitequark>
the raspberry pi is the new arduino.
<whitequark>
even more computing power to waste mindlessly
<whitequark>
I just wish to see how a gaping vulnerability gets discovered which will make every single (factory-flashed) instance of rpi exploitable.
<kristianpaul>
whitequark: at least run Linus now, more friendly no? :)
<viric>
:)
<kristianpaul>
LinuX
<whitequark>
kristianpaul: that's exactly what is wrong.
<whitequark>
controlling a lightbulb with an arduino is barely acceptable already
<viric>
I don't like that pi thing either. I don't see much good in all that big marketing
<whitequark>
controlling it with a fucking ARM11 with fucking linux is NOT acceptable
<rz2k>
lol
<kristianpaul>
a bulb? ;)
<kristianpaul>
light*
<kristianpaul>
nah..
<rz2k>
lets control a bulb with ARM11-Core on Virtex
<whitequark>
oh, 90% of rpi projects will turn out to be lightbulb controllers
<whitequark>
just like 90% of arduino projects did
<whitequark>
but at least arduino forces you to think at least a little.
<kristianpaul>
thats exagerate a bit, even with arduino (wich is widelly used by artits on not that simple implementations actually)
<whitequark>
even attaching a lightbulb teaches you something new. that's useful.
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<whitequark>
kristianpaul: arduino for _artists_ is perfectly fine
<viric>
maybe the kernel people come up with a generic lightbuilb user-kernel interface
<whitequark>
that's what arduino was created for, with all those shields
<kristianpaul>
yeap
<whitequark>
and I have nothing against it
<whitequark>
but arduino is an awful platform to teach electronics/uC programming in every aspect
<whitequark>
it's expensive (compared to a bare chip plus a $4 USB-serial), it's too common, which means that arduino programmers will arise, and it's pretty basic
<whitequark>
it's not a platform for teaching, it's a product. let it stay a product.
<wpwrak>
whitequark: what's wrong with using an ARM and Linux to control your lightbulb ? Linux lets you do a lot of fun things directly on the same chip, without having to first send them out over some serial port to a real machine
<rz2k>
more arduino guys = less good engineers = more work for us!
<wpwrak>
(-:C
<whitequark>
wpwrak: because controlling a lightbulb--I meant that literally--does not require linux, and linux, being a very complicated piece of software, adds like 1k% points of failure.
<viric>
and *updates*
<whitequark>
e.g. what will happen if that fancy ARM11 will get an EMI or a 0.5V spike? a dead ARM11?
<viric>
"do you run the latest linux in your pi?"
<whitequark>
and AVRs at least can perfectly run at 2x rated voltage. they're just way less complex
<whitequark>
you shouldn't kill a pigeon with a cannon.
<whitequark>
you'll end up destroying everything around and an alive pigeon.
<viric>
whitequark: I bet some people will fight to reduce the linux boot time in the pi :)
<whitequark>
viric: just smile and then place a glowing tritium keyring on that thing.
<wpwrak>
whitequark: hmm. would you use an arduino in applications that need industry-grade reliability ? ;-)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: depends. I could accept prototyping on arduino and then using an industry-grade version of same AVR chip in production
<whitequark>
but frankly, it's just so easier to get a breadboard
<whitequark>
and it's hundred times cheaper.
<whitequark>
of course, using their pseudo-C or third-party code is not acceptable.
<kristianpaul>
i see it like an easy way to embed apps on a box
<kristianpaul>
a more common sreap of single platform (linux)
<kristianpaul>
spread*
<whitequark>
linux is already the most abundant OS on earth
<wpwrak>
whitequark: regarding the cannon, i use the ben nanonote with UBB as my little "arduino". for small interface tasks, such as in-circuit programming. works great. and having linux on the machine makes things a LOT easier.
<kristianpaul>
we need more !! ;-)
<kristianpaul>
if the code that control the lightbulb is a bash script i dont have nothing again is :)
<kristianpaul>
or make
<kristianpaul>
make lightbulb on =)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: well, in these cases using a product (i.e. arduino or ben) saves you some construction and testing. perfectly fine for one-off tasks.
<kristianpaul>
against*
<whitequark>
but if you will, for example, suggest building a home automation systems built on Ben's (not the Ben's board, or CPU, or whatever--plain Bens), I'd say you are crazy
<whitequark>
s,systems,system,
<whitequark>
and that's what arduino and rpi folks do.
<wpwrak>
(protoyping) i rarely find it convenient to use something fairly alien. most of the time, the MCU itself isn't the part of the system that has most of the question marks, so i find it a lot more useful to make prototypes what are already close to the final system. that way, i can test a lot more things.
<whitequark>
wpwrak: (prototyping) yeah, looks like we agree on this. I don't possibly see how using shields makes prototyping easier.
<whitequark>
it's just like Lego. yeah, it's a really good toy, but it's a toy. you cannot take a whole lot of Lego bricks and build a real house.
<whitequark>
leave toys to their domain, and bricks and concrete to theirs.
<wpwrak>
(home automation) i'd consider the ben for a control / user interface device :) for the modules actually switching power and such, you need something optimized anyway. no point in making craters in your walls to fit an arduino sandwich
<wpwrak>
(lego house) say this a few more times and perhaps someone will take that challenge ;-)
<whitequark>
as a _challenge_, it's fine, again.
<whitequark>
but if you'll try to start a company building a lego brick houses...
<wpwrak>
lego may actually work reasonably well. there's a lot of nice embedded isolating air in there. and it's certainly water-proof. maybe you need some UV paint :)
<wpwrak>
maybe that could bring the price of lego bricks down quite a bit ;-))
<whitequark>
well, unless you consider how much force they can stand, and the fact that trying to stand on the floor will probably destroy it
<whitequark>
(and you in the process)
<pang>
James May built a house out of Legos
<wpwrak>
ther are some more advanced lego components that let you build reasonably strong structures
<whitequark>
I never doubt someone will be crazy enough to do that
<whitequark>
not even mentioning that rpi has a Broadcom chip in it.
<whitequark>
fucking broadcom where you don't even have FOSS kernel modules for all of the peripherals.
<whitequark>
AFAIK at least GPU and networking modules are proprietary.
<whitequark>
oh, and that vicious idea of clustering simple machines.
<whitequark>
having 8 arduinos mean that instead having 8x computing power, you'll have 6x communication overhead.
<whitequark>
and similar ones with "a bucket of rpis."
<whitequark>
oh, also: home automation devices should be _really_ cheap. pi is intended to be mass-produced, and yet it is $35. that's nothing like "cheap".
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<whitequark>
I want to add a hundred of devices to every place I have something controllable or measurable. $3k5? no way.
<pang>
last i checked the $35 version had several USB ports and ethernet
<pang>
if you just want to control or measure something it'd probably be better to use the $25 version
<whitequark>
that's fundamentally the same.
<pang>
or an Atmega32U4 with an RF12B
<whitequark>
why use a complex, faulty $25 appliance where a $5 one would serve its job better?
<whitequark>
pang: I'm for STM32W's, but that series is very young yet
<wpwrak>
more like $1-2 ;-) after all, the critter gives you little more than the CPU. all the rest is custom-made anyway.
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I meant the whole device, not only the MCU
<whitequark>
pang: STM32s are actually more efficient than Atmel processors, both in regards of power and programmer efficiency.
<whitequark>
working with USB in a 8-bit MCU is painful
<whitequark>
STM's have DMA and 32-bit stuff and nice ARM ISA, and they're actually cheaper, faster and use less watts/MIPS.
<wpwrak>
the NXP LPC1xxx don't look half bad when it comes to competing with AVRs. about the same price point. a LOT more MHz. Cortex.
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<whitequark>
wpwrak: NXP, esp. the LPC series has a longstanding trait of having _incredibly_ big and annoying errata
<whitequark>
i.e. "Boot from SD is not working from rev. A to rev. E. There is no workaround."
<pang>
the Atmels are designed in my home town so i've gotta support them :P
<pang>
the alternative would be the Nordic chips
<whitequark>
hmmm, what can you say about Nordic? I'm curious
<whitequark>
I like nRF24L01+ a lot
<pang>
they're known for their rf chips
<whitequark>
I have a friend who worked with these chips, and he says they're ages ahead TI's hardware/software solution
<whitequark>
haven't actually used them in real projects yet, but I studied the docs and available products on the market
<whitequark>
they have a proprietary air protocol, but apart from that it's a really really nice little chip
<whitequark>
no external components (apass from bypass cap & two more to pass FCC)
<whitequark>
and it has a nice packet engine inside
<whitequark>
s,apass,apart
<pang>
the third alternative would have to be Energy Micro
<pang>
that company is not from my home town, but i know a lot of the guys there
<wpwrak>
"they have a proprietary air protocol, but apart from that it's a really really nice little chip" is like saying "he slowly tortured everyone in the village to death, then poisoned the well. but besides, he's a great guy." ;-)
<pang>
i'm pretty sure the Energy Micro Cortex will match your STs when it comes to power efficiency
<wpwrak>
s/besides/besides that
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: ""they have a proprietary air protocol, but apart from that it's a really really nice little chip" is like saying "he slowly tortured everyone in the village to death, then poisoned the well. but besides that, he's a great guy." ;-)"
<whitequark>
wpwrak: *shrug* they work, and they're cheap. I'm fine with that for one-off projects.
<whitequark>
for something more sustainable, 802.15.4 is the way to go.
<whitequark>
pang: yeah, I see, EM MCUs look very similar to ST ones
<whitequark>
have you used them?
<pang>
no, i have no hands on experience
<whitequark>
ohh, they have radios too
<pang>
but i know some of the guys designing them, and they're pretty hard core
<whitequark>
or they will have them in Q3 2013
<pang>
so i'm pretty sure the stuff must be good :P
<whitequark>
well, when they'll begin selling them, I'm in
<whitequark>
because this stuff really seems to be comprehensive and competitive
<wpwrak>
Q3 2013. let's talk about them in 2015 ;-)
<whitequark>
exactly
<whitequark>
and that's sad
<wpwrak>
the specs don't look too exciting compared things you can buy from NXP today
<whitequark>
like what?
<wpwrak>
the LPC1xxx series. seem pretty similar.
<wpwrak>
power consumption is a bit lower. deepest sleep mode is some 11x better (20 nA vs. 220 nA). in the other modes, they're comparable. and NXP update their LPC series quite often when they've figured out some new power-saving trick.
<whitequark>
mhm
<whitequark>
what about wireless stuff from nxp?
<wpwrak>
dunno. atmel is a bit of a kludge but at least it's properly documented and easy to use. it's a separate chip anyway.
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