<DocScrutinizer05>
as soon as there's VoLTE they MUST offer transport wuthout voice service
<ds2>
afaict, you cannot buy a plan w/o voice. plans are referenced with PHONE numbers
<ds2>
but then this is the US
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh, US
<ds2>
no speakers or mics on your USB stick? we don't care. You still get a phone number
<DocScrutinizer05>
the paradise for companies to rape customers
<ds2>
this did start with FCC
<ds2>
hence the US centric complaints
<DocScrutinizer05>
here you can get prepaid SIM cards that only offer data, even now for UMTS
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<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: really? how? the airport seems to sell only voice/data packages
<ds2>
one of them even provides 'free data' but voice cost $$
<DocScrutinizer05>
please check the market, I'm not a salesman
<ds2>
how as in - speciality stores or is it buried in one of the vending machine options
<ds2>
not asking for names
<DocScrutinizer05>
I dunno, no vending machines for sure. We got prolly 50 dozen SIM resellers here, each with their own plans
<ds2>
ah okay
<ds2>
my exposure to european services is limited to the machines at the airport
<DocScrutinizer05>
unlike US, here every SIM works every corner of whole country
<ds2>
``country'' hehehehe I like that term
<DocScrutinizer05>
so you can choose from a plethora of providers
<ds2>
UK sims from the same provider didn't work in FR (at least purchased from the UK airport)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and when the provider doesn't need to allocate a phone number for you since your SIM only does data, it may be a 2 bucks cheaper
<DocScrutinizer05>
roaming between different EU countries isn't warranted to work with all SIMs
<DocScrutinizer05>
better than USA where roaming from one citiy to next may leave you disconn
<ds2>
donno if that is better
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can tell you it _is_
<DocScrutinizer05>
we also have SIM that work in whole EU, actually most do
<DocScrutinizer05>
but any cheesy SIM is warranted to work anywhere in the country where it been sold, from Felnsburg to Munich and Hamburg to Frankfurt/Oder
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless you got poor signal
<DocScrutinizer05>
which is pretty much identical for anywhere on this globe
<DocScrutinizer05>
IOW we only got 4 networks, technically
<ds2>
except country in the EU is comparable to a "state" in the US in terms of geographic area
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I know of many providers in USA that don't even cover a state
<ds2>
given the size of a "state", that is not unexpected
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's why I say EU telecommnications is way more advanced than USA
<DocScrutinizer05>
honestly, this leads nowhere
<DocScrutinizer05>
please take it elswhere
<ds2>
fair
<ds2>
like I said, we were getting way OT
<ds2>
DocScrutinizer05: between different parts of the team needing to do other things; when is layout expected to finish on the Neo900?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm still stuck on layout
<ds2>
still with Eagle?
<DocScrutinizer05>
not that it's particularly difficult, just it nuked all our planning we had so far
<ds2>
*nod* I am just curious how a big project like this works in eagle (or doesn't)
<DocScrutinizer05>
(Eagle) not yet decided since... not yet decided
<DocScrutinizer05>
eagle technically could handle the size of the project, just the router is sub-par supposedly (actually)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and since layout is all about routing... :-/
<ds2>
lack of impedence tracking is a PITA
<DocScrutinizer05>
technically I could do literally 4m^2 of 16layer PCB
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I think a limited form of impedance routing exists too#
<DocScrutinizer05>
just no propagation delay autorouting
<ds2>
okay, I'll pester you to see if you found it
<DocScrutinizer05>
luckily we don't need that, only in the 200MHz range of signals, if at all
<ds2>
just did a large BGA myself and impedence control/constrainting...
<ds2>
ULPI
<DocScrutinizer05>
eagle can calculate and route impedance matched lines afaik
<DocScrutinizer05>
ULPI is not really that hard
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have very short dimensions of board
<ds2>
more interested to hear stores afterwards
<DocScrutinizer05>
andparticularly distance from SoC to companion chip with PHY is just millimeters
<ds2>
how far is socket from the PHY?
<DocScrutinizer05>
USB socket?
<ds2>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's a tad, but only a differential pair
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe max 50mm
<DocScrutinizer05>
more likely 20
<DocScrutinizer05>
and look at USB cables, they are meters long ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
our traces on PCB are as good, or better than, those cables, for sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure the socket is a discontinuity that may introduce some ringing
<DocScrutinizer05>
we'll see
<ds2>
if it works...
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what we build prototsypes for, and we got GTA04 which works
<DocScrutinizer05>
we also got good ole' BeagleBoard-xM
<DocScrutinizer05>
and of course N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
so it seems it must be feasible :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
(Eagle)... can't do in-pad vias
<DocScrutinizer05>
>:-(
<DocScrutinizer05>
only manually, very tricky and annoying. Might write a User Language Program for that, to at least simplify manual routing of the BGAs
<DocScrutinizer05>
((stores afterwards)) you lost me on that one, please rephrase
<ds2>
sorry, "stories"
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<Luke-Jr>
[23:29:38] <DocScrutinizer05> non-free 3D graphics drivers[12] http://neo900.org/faq#gfx <-- incomplete hardware support doesn't count.
<Luke-Jr>
[23:32:46] <DocScrutinizer05> >>Android compatibility: dualboot<< + (replicant)? <-- replicant as in the free Android fork? officially supported or works today?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Luke-Jr: sorry?
<DocScrutinizer05>
replicant supposed to be official supporter of Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
(doesn't count.) so how could I help you out? that's what it is
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's even leaked code for the PowerVR drivers iirc
<DocScrutinizer05>
whatever, this is what it is and we try to describe it as accurate as possible
<Luke-Jr>
yes
<Oksana>
100% free operating system... As long as you do not try to use 3D acceleration, do not wish to use cellular, and do not use built-in WiFi. Does it about-cover proprietary blobs?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the situation is *very* identical to Pandora, except we also got maemo closed drivers
<Luke-Jr>
right. that's why Pandora's column is identical
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh? you can use cellular all you like, the OS is totally open in thta regard
<DocScrutinizer05>
also the WiFi is 100% FOSS drivers, just need **firmware* upload on power-up
<Luke-Jr>
ok? neither of those are mentioned on the page
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: do you consider your linux non-open OS when you connect a USB printer that needs some initialization data to get uploaded?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
most linux distros even ship with the WiFi firmware
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<DocScrutinizer05>
well, some do, can't make quantitative statements
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<DocScrutinizer05>
let me put it this way: when you really really feel annoyed by the firmware blob in your harddisk that needs to get uploaded to the WiFi once, we prolly can move that task to uBoot so you don't see one single bit of it in linux
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<DocScrutinizer05>
and you absolutely lost me on cellular. what's your problem with cellular?
<DocScrutinizer05>
echo ATi >/dev/ttyUSB0
<DocScrutinizer05>
cat /dev/ttyUSB0 --> "Cinerion PLS8 modem version 2.01"
<Luke-Jr>
there is no problem.
<Oksana>
Linux, no, but printer is not soldered into the device. But your argument is valid, yes, that it is person's choice to use or not use the wifi, and other parts of the system do not suffer from being near
<DocScrutinizer05>
in http://neo900.org/faq#gfx we *clearly* explain that there are no FOSS *THREE-DEE* gfx drivers for the PowerVR
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I know computer designs that actually have printer "soldered"
<DocScrutinizer05>
is a requirement now solder-free connection?
<DocScrutinizer05>
removabel, if yes with which tools?
<DocScrutinizer05>
same case? if yes, made of which material and how large, open or closed?
<DocScrutinizer05>
when I mount PC and printer into same rack, does that count as integrated then?
* Luke-Jr
agrees with DocScrutinizer05, and therefore assumes these comments are directed to Oksana. ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
I tend to agree that closed blobs for WLAN firmware are annoying, but at leastthey are better than a flashed firmware with no upgrade path that turns out to be buggy, later on
<DocScrutinizer05>
been there, suffered that
<DocScrutinizer05>
I also seen those closed firmware blobs getting hacked and RE'ed several times
* DocScrutinizer05
feels again like in FSF RYF hell
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry no, we _do_ _not_ agree on FSF's approach that immutable firmware is better than closed blobs
<Luke-Jr>
^ +1
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<DocScrutinizer05>
FOSS firmware is best, right on place #2 comes a blob
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<DocScrutinizer05>
#3 is updatebale flash in peripheral, and the last by several lightyears distance is the FSF approach which just helps them keep their blinkers on
<DocScrutinizer05>
"as long as you can't change it, it's no software" MEH!!!
<pigeons>
re: bad actors not wanting to stick out with a neo900, canadian border guard spent quite a while trying to believe the n900 is a phone until a "welcome to canada" roaming text came in
<DocScrutinizer05>
ROTFL, youmade my day :-)
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* DocScrutinizer05
idly wonders if RYF says *anything* about blobs in bootloader. If not, the idea to firmware-upload all the blobs in uBoot is actually pretty tempting. You wouldn't notice the peripheral needs a firmware blob after power cycle, until you would do a power-down/power-up, and we coulkd define such powercycling not acceptable and still we stay RYF conforming
<Luke-Jr>
RYF?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Respects Your Freedom, that FSF cert thing for hw
<DocScrutinizer05>
Luke-Jr: need links?
<Luke-Jr>
nah, don't care what FSF says that much
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<Luke-Jr>
I find it ironic they approve of a non-free license though.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, it starts to get boring to have this debate every other week, since felt 10 years now
<DocScrutinizer05>
was just not long enough to even have a nap, between >>[2016-04-19 Tue 00:34:46] <DocScrutinizer05> (landline) pro: 'but the phone is only connected via 2 wires to the exchange'; contra: 'our modem also is connected only with two wires' / pro: 'but your 2 wires are USB'; contra: 'the landline is ISDN' / pro: 'but your landline phone can't update the excange via that wire'; contra: 'how would you prove that?'<< and >>[2016-04-19 Tue 05:45:
<DocScrutinizer05>
51] * DocScrutinizer05 feels again like in FSF RYF hell<<
<Luke-Jr>
lol
<Luke-Jr>
I bet at some point it was possible :P
<DocScrutinizer05>
I actually know it was possible
<DocScrutinizer05>
at pre-internet times
<DocScrutinizer05>
or rather, pre-DSL times
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you actually connected with a terminal and (ISDN)-modem to the exchange
<DocScrutinizer05>
my point is: FSF failed to define the borders of their own domain of responsibility, and now they have to deal with the inevitable fallout that requires tricks like "when you can't modify it then it's no software, so not relevant for FSF which is otherwise claiming responsibility for *all* software on this globe"
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<Oksana>
Nice... Anyway, with FSF-RYF being slowly-moving, where else can a list (or database) be found of manufactured or going-to-be-manufactured pocket-fitting Linux (not Android, there are too many Androids around already, with their own dedicated websites and databases) devices?
<freemangordon1>
yeah, you need to spend extra on a razor though :)
<freemangordon1>
hmm, xxx1?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
???
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<freemangordon>
my nick
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh
* DocScrutinizer05
feels tempted to +v freemangordon as the lead devel of neo-fremantle
<freemangordon>
+v?
* freemangordon
knows nothing about irc :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
voice, just a tag thing basically
<freemangordon>
aah
<freemangordon>
well, who cares
<DocScrutinizer05>
allows posting if channel would be moderated
<DocScrutinizer05>
it isn't
<freemangordon>
keep it that way :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<freemangordon>
btw, what has happened with that n900-serial?
<freemangordon>
no hurry, just asking
<DocScrutinizer05>
still in a paralyzed state so it sits in front of me and waiting to get shipped since 2 days
<freemangordon>
:)
<DocScrutinizer05>
today I slept away the complete day :-/
<freemangordon>
hmm, it is not you that is paralyzed?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I should be able to package it this night so it can ship tomorrow morning
<DocScrutinizer05>
it _is_ me
<freemangordon>
ouch. overtired?
<DocScrutinizer05>
burnout, since at least 4 months
<DocScrutinizer05>
so yes, overtired is one of the symptoms
<freemangordon>
take rest then, that device is not that important, I can cotinue doing what I am doing for some more time
<freemangordon>
*continue
<DocScrutinizer05>
sending your nice debug-serial dev is no stress
<freemangordon>
well, ok, it is up to you
<DocScrutinizer05>
would you need battery?
<freemangordon>
yes, unless it brings problems with the delivery
<DocScrutinizer05>
prolly not, so I will pack a few of questionable status plus one seemingly good one
<freemangordon>
I remember there was some bureaucracy, so you'd better don't send battery, I have a couple of old ones here and anyway I have to buy new polarcells
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's always the little details... ;-)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
CHIP _would_ be nice for a cheap MP3 player, *IF* you could plug the memstick with your MP3s and the headphones concurrently
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<MonkeyofDoom>
seems like an mp3 player should be a lot smaller than that board
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe smaller, but cheaper? with USB for attaching memstick?
<DocScrutinizer05>
with a sort of capability to playback video media?
<MonkeyofDoom>
video media puts it in an entirely different class of device imo
<DocScrutinizer05>
(prolly only SDTV original resolution)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I.E 640*480
<DocScrutinizer05>
resp 720x576 PAL
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a nice gadget and you wonder how they make a buck with it, but it has its problems
<DocScrutinizer05>
dunno if allwinner acts as sponsor to promote their SoCs
<DocScrutinizer05>
like - I suspect - TI did with beagleboard
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least initially
<Defiant>
TI did at least with the Pandaboard
<Defiant>
and they help with the beagle x15
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod: what I thought
<DocScrutinizer05>
SoC manufs either only sell to the "big 5" or they want to gain share of the "DIY market" and sponsor such small devel boards to make their SoCs popular
<DocScrutinizer05>
for SoC manufs everything < N millions of chips is "DIY"
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<DocScrutinizer05>
supporting your chip in just onemainstream smartphone sells you dozens of millions of your SoC, DIY OTOH is a tedious business
<DocScrutinizer05>
to make DIY a commercial success, such little gadgets need to go really really strong, like RPi
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<Oksanaa>
about switching between video-out and mic-in : why not solder a 3-legged switch to the pads, to be able to switch manually without re-soldering every time?
<Oksanaa>
to be fair, stable 3-legged switch might need holes in the board, not just pads?
<Oksanaa>
And, you have to choose thin USB sticks then. I have one USB stick which is so thick that when it's put into a USB port, it obstracts neighbouring USB ports
<Oksanaa>
/s/you/chip user/
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksanaa: I was too lazy to suggest it :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and there should be SMT switches that fit
* Oksanaa
wonders if their design of board is final, or if I can ask them for holes, at least: not sure they would go and add SMT switch
<DocScrutinizer05>
holes would be great not only for switch but also for posts for jumper
<DocScrutinizer05>
if pitch 0.050" (1.27mm) doesn't fit - those are available in quite a number of different pitches
<DocScrutinizer05>
though 0.05 and 0.1 are most common
<Arch-TK>
DocScrutinizer05: there's a board design?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for that CHIP? dunno
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems it's open source hw, so should
<Arch-TK>
oh no, I hear talk of jumpers and switches and mic-in / video out
<Arch-TK>
I was trying to find schematics for a laptop motherboard earlier
<Arch-TK>
That's impossible to find apparently
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, and AHJ
<Arch-TK>
Who knows why companies hate letting people fix things
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think I know
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<Arch-TK>
Is it because then they can't force you to buy another one?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it started in the 1920s when a few incandescent bulb factory bosses came together in Geneva and agreed on they lamps not lasting longer than 1000h
<Arch-TK>
I was never sure if that was a myth or not
<Arch-TK>
It didn't sound particularly far fetched
<DocScrutinizer05>
commonly known as "planned obsolescence" and more generally as consumer society model
<Arch-TK>
But last I checked the wikipedia page on that light bulb thing lacked any references last I checked
<Arch-TK>
s/last I checked//
<DocScrutinizer05>
there seem to have been even papers documetning the whole story, in GDR's OSARM factory
<DocScrutinizer05>
OSRAM
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's sort of confirmed
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<Arch-TK>
I see
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<DocScrutinizer05>
apart from that there are very special intricacies with publishing industry design documentation, no matter if schematics or datasheets or layout
<DocScrutinizer05>
patent trolls only being one of those
<DocScrutinizer05>
(incandescant bulbs) you actually can get extended lifetime shockproof bulbs, e.g. for traffic signs
<DocScrutinizer05>
not very popular anymore, since LED
<Arch-TK>
OSRAM is such an unfortunate name when read in polish
<DocScrutinizer05>
is it?
<Arch-TK>
It effectively translates as "I will shit on <something>" (I will being implicit)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I find tungsram a very silly brand name, since OSRAM meant OSmium and wolfRAM (Tungsten)
<DocScrutinizer05>
tungsram is a tautology
<Arch-TK>
In fact, the sram part is the part which actually means "I am shitting" so tungsram still sounds funny.
<DocScrutinizer05>
so I'm happy nowadays DRAM is more poplular than SRAM
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<Arch-TK>
From what I remember, RAM DIMMs are usually DRAM (I'm sure that's still the case) and CPU Cache is usually SRAM ?
<Arch-TK>
and they're more or less a size / speed compromise?