<Kabouik_>
Excuse my stupid question from a naive and not experienced geek: the Neo900 is supposed to work with both Maemo (NeoFremantle) and Debian, right? Will it be shipped with them preinstalled as dual boot? And will we be able to use the modem when in Debian (or any other distribution)?
<Kabouik_>
Also, any idea on how to connect a keyboard *while* charging the Neo900?
<Kabouik_>
Bluetooth is the only option I guess?
<MonkeyofDoom>
wait I think I sent that to the wrong channel
<MonkeyofDoom>
Kabouik_: the modem should work using ofono on a "Real Linux" distro, yes
<Kabouik_>
So we should even be able to do phone calls? Battery life would be the main problem for using the real Linux distro all the time I guess, as well as user-friendliness on the small screen of course
<Kabouik_>
Basically, we should expect the same experience as the Pyra, but with lower performance (and smaller screen) but phone capability? Here's a recent video of the Pyra by the way: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4t9Ys8wI6k
<MonkeyofDoom>
I ran Arch on my N900 for quite some time (before I had a telecom that supported it)
<Kabouik_>
MonkeyofDoom ^
<MonkeyofDoom>
battery life was about a day still
<Kabouik_>
Oh, good
<Kabouik_>
I just remember running EasyDebian on mine but it was long ago
<MonkeyofDoom>
*theoretically* ofono should have worked on the original N900 as well, but I was never able to make that actually happen
<MonkeyofDoom>
right now I can't get any kernel later than 4.1rc2 to boot on it (using Pali's branch and rx51-defconfig)
<Kabouik_>
Yes, I hope NeoFremantle will not get stuck on too many of these things that "should work" and require just a little bit of community work, but in the end are still not working years after :(
<MonkeyofDoom>
when I get a chance I'll have to debug that but earlyprintk on an N900 is a pain
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<xman>
What are the realistic chance to change the usb to usb-c form, but regular usb2 features?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
Kabouik: Neo900 doesn't ship with any OS preinstalled, we support community projects that create OS for Neo900 and we will probably ship an installer "wizard" that allows easy installation of any OS we are aware of supporting Neo900. Our primary recommendation is neofremantle, but the board support package (minimal OS with device drivers, to check functionality of platform subsystems) that we will ship with the device is supposedly based
<DocScrutinizer05>
on Devuan
<DocScrutinizer05>
Kabouik_: (kbd while charging) use a USB Y-cable, just like with N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
I dunno if I was the first to invent that, but anyway I suggested Y-cable even for OM Freerunner back when
<Wizzup>
(I can confirm that this works well on n900)
<Wizzup>
In fact, this is what I want to try soon on mainline @ n900
<DocScrutinizer05>
(aiui a few years later) the USB consortium even added hostmode while charging to their charging ammendments
<DocScrutinizer05>
so charging while hostmode is officially specified and, not that it matters but, I think I invented it ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, it's so obvious I dunno if anybody could claim to have invented it. It's like saying "I invented drinking when thirsty"
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's one catch with N900 and with Neo900 though: both depend on charger identifying itself via the D+/D- lines of USB, and that's obviously out of consideration for hostmode which needs D+/- for data. So you need to enable charging in software since the device has no decent means to autodetect presence of a charger on a Y-cable
<DocScrutinizer05>
device can detect +5V on VBUS which are not provided by the device inself, but that doesn't tell if that's fit for charging or just some weak power source just sufficiebt for powering the attached USB gadget
<DocScrutinizer05>
so automatic 'charging' with maybe 50mA might be OKish in that case, but that's not really helpful - hit the "charging hostmode" button! :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
xman: change the usb?
<DocScrutinizer05>
don't even think about it!
<DocScrutinizer05>
use an adapter
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<DocScrutinizer05>
we took special care to make sure the micro-USB receptacle *never* comes off the PCB, like it's notorious for N900 ;-)
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<drathir>
DocScrutinizer05: all for sure appreciated including /me... 13:07 <+DocScrutinizer05> we took special care to make sure the micro-USB receptacle *never* comes off the PCB, like it's notorious for N900 ;-)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<drathir>
that i guess the nr1 n900 biggest problem which almost sure occur earlier or later...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
btw USB coming off isn't more frequently seen on N900 than on any other arbitrary smartphone, it seems. Just users of other (mainstreem) smartphones are _used_to_ diposal of their device and get a new one, at least every 12 months
<DocScrutinizer05>
mainstream even
<drathir>
DocScrutinizer05: yea personally no get idea change phone bc of new android out its insane for me...
* drathir
still not saw alternative to n900/neo900 honestly...
<drathir>
DocScrutinizer05: also neo900 will have overvoltage somekind protection at usb port?
<drathir>
thats should handle most of bad usb hubs i guess... even if charging multiple from 2 separate sources...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
however watch out for D+/-, it's specified ABSMAX 7V!
<DocScrutinizer05>
harly anything we can do about that, since USB2.0 Data lines have tough requirements on what may (not) get connected to those lines, regarding capacitive load etc. So a decent OVP is not possible
<DocScrutinizer05>
I.E I can't have series resistors there to form a Overvoltage Protection togehter with a Zener diode or whatever
<drathir>
but in theory if happen the board will be worth to fix or even possible to fix?
<DocScrutinizer05>
err yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least as long as we don't damage - or can replace - the TWL4030 chip with the USB PHY
<DocScrutinizer05>
if you're lucky the chip that protects USB from ESD will just fail on shortcircuit and thus is all that needs replacement, which is easy
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway note that no overvoltage is supposed to be seen on D+/-, unless you use a charger with voltage dividers on D+/- for signaling, and the voltage is higher than 7V even after the divider, which means >10V on VBUS of the charger
<drathir>
thats nice to hear, bc with a little bigger power for sure more ppl will like to use device for more extreeme tasks...
<DocScrutinizer05>
and even then, it's a voltage resistive divider which can't provide enough current to fry / overload the existing OVP on D+/-, I guess
<DocScrutinizer05>
so I'd say yes, the USB is protected against overvoltage quite decently
<DocScrutinizer05>
unlike Neo Freerunner which emitted magic blue smoke at voltages as low as ~7V
<DocScrutinizer05>
I heard of at least 3 devices Neo Freerunner getting fried by a cheap or defective car charger
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 should be more immune to that
<DocScrutinizer05>
for sure more immune than even N900
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<DocScrutinizer05>
((Neo Freerunner)) my colleague Andy Green was very upset and adverse when I said "we need better OVP on USB, the ABSMAX of 6.5V is pretty poor spec"
<DocScrutinizer05>
(that was for VBUS!)
<drathir>
come to perfection sadly sometimes a lot of devices needed to sacrife owns lifes...
<DocScrutinizer05>
he argued "show me a defect from overvoltage and the voltage that caused that, then we might consider", while ABSMAX specs clearly stated >>Stresses beyond those listed under absolute maximum ratings may cause permanent damage to the device.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
very special case of "we don't need that" syndrome
<drathir>
yea somtimes better consider alittle more safe spec limits zone if the price is no big difference than changing spec after some times to that better one and minds thats was not worth of stress etc...
<DocScrutinizer05>
ha, yes exactly
<Kabouik_>
Thanks for your answers DocScrutinizer05. I hope community projects for making OS functional on Neo900 will succeed, and not too long after the Neo900 are shipped. As for the Y-USB, do you know of any user-ready to buy anywhere? I'm not skilled either for working on the OS of the Neo900 or on the HW of a simple USB connection. :>
<DocScrutinizer05>
any Y-cable will do, they ship with lots of USB-HDD
<Kabouik_>
Oh, these. Perfect. You first picture made me think it was more complicated than that.
<drathir>
Kabouik_: n900 fan(atics) are everywhere and i wishes not desapear so soon...
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<Kabouik_>
Sure drathir but unfortunately DocScrutinizer05 will not sell millions of units, and there are a few useless users like me in those that'll buy a Neo900. :D
<Kabouik_>
So we can only count on a few heroes to develop the OS
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<DocScrutinizer05>
seems maemo is already almost perfectly running on new kernel, so "porting" to Neo900 is just a matter of recompiling it. All that lacks is a dialer but you can use an "external" dialer (e.g. from SHR OS) as long as there's no genuine maemo Neo900 dialer yet
<Kabouik_>
Also, I know it may sound like a dumb question (and it surely is), but what would be the extra cost for more powerful CPU and or more ram? If I understood correctly, the major money sink is to make the GTA04 boards. Since we will already reach very high price tag, I wonder what would be needed to have a more 2012-2013ish device instead of a 2011 one. Maybe it's twice the price, or maybe the parts are already sourced, I don't know.
<Kabouik_>
DocScrutinizer05 + features to support the extra functions like IR receiver/modem monitoring/dual-sim and so on, right?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for more RAM and/or more CPU power we need to go from OMAP3 to a 'higher' SoC, e.g OMAP5 - which is basically what pyra is doing
<drathir>
Kabouik_: takin on mind the whole idea and thats isnt a big company behind a device im still really amazed, even more there in my personal opinion dont se any alternative to n900/neo900 atm, and who knows maybe neo900 after out and test reviv on the net can uprise even more...
<Kabouik_>
Absolutely drathir, just wondering about my own personal use of the Neo900 as an everyday device, since I'm not capable of developping anything for it by myself
<DocScrutinizer05>
drathir: yes, we hope for that, though the idea is to continue with STEP2 then, which would actually allow us to go to OMAP5
<Kabouik_>
How far are we from it?
<DocScrutinizer05>
STEP2? unpredictable
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe 1 year, maybe will never happen
<Kabouik_>
I meant in terms of preorders
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, minimum is 18 months I guess
<Kabouik_>
Maybe I'm confusing things, thought step 2 was dependent on the number of preorders
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, STEP2 is a new design
<Kabouik_>
Will it be revolutionary, Steve? :>
<DocScrutinizer05>
our plans for the far future of the company, since without such perspectives a company is already at zombie state and a lame duck
<drathir>
Kabouik_: little sad for me that n900 isnt powered at arch eg, bc should be even lighter than debian... but still is hard to fully move out from nokia staff in os... the big thing is the arch + xfce4 workin really nice from sd card which is really impressive for me and still prove not needed 4+ cores to device workin nicely...
<Kabouik_>
Ah, so STEP2 would walk away from the goood ol' N900!
<Kabouik_>
Sure drathir. I admit I just asked these questions about the specs since I charged my N900 again a few days ago, and still love it as on the first day, but cannot help but be in pain when I see its low performance compared to a more modern device (or even a N9, or a Jolla with its average specs)
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<Kabouik_>
These are completely different devices of course, just speaking about the impression it gives when you go back to a slower (by today's standars) device
<DocScrutinizer05>
Kabouik_: Neo900 specs are pretty much identical in CPU and RAM to the N9
<DocScrutinizer05>
N9-64GB
<Kabouik_>
We can expect similar battery life if the CPU is similar too, right?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
roughly
<Kabouik_>
+ the hotswap capability, neat
<DocScrutinizer05>
N9 has different modem (more greedy), different display (less greedy), and last not least different battery though
<Kabouik_>
I noticed that my 4 N900 batteries have died badly though. Only one of them still works, and gives like 30 min of activity before dying. They really don't age well. I know this was stated already, and that Neo900 should have better ones.
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, the hotswap is sort of obsolete since we can do suspend to disk now, which allows 'warm swap' which takes 10s longer to resume but you can take all the time you want for swapping the battery
<Kabouik_>
!
<Kabouik_>
Didn't know that, excellent news
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<drathir>
Kabouik_: yes i also agree its weaker in compare to present devices... but good to not forget there is greatly improved security and privacy in compare to modern devices and what is a little funny for me itshow clearly how weak is android as os takin on mind its need all the time new devices to workin that small paradox or fa*e force consumer to buy new devices bc new os out... personally im more preffer not jumping with devices bc of os ...
<drathir>
... requiments...
<Kabouik_>
Sure. No doubt about the qualities of the Neo900 compared to other devices.
<DocScrutinizer05>
bbl
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<drathir>
Kabouik_: and ofc a lot of things nice to neo900 include like hw aes support dual active sim ir etc...
<DocScrutinizer05>
hellekin: ^^^ (50 posts) - we need a updated specs page
<Kabouik_>
But smoothness is a feature readily noticeable, and easy to get familiar with. Fremantle with ~N9 CPU and RAM should be smooth though. I'm a bit more concerned about obsolete applications (browser) or non-existant commercial applications. I always was glad not to see commercial apps in N900 and then N9 and Jolla, but sometimes you just need one, just one, and you can't, and you're not a dev. That's frustrating. :p
<drathir>
Kabouik_: yea and about battery take a look on charger the weak ones what i saw possible to "die" so fast... and battery looks like broken...
* DocScrutinizer05
wonders how hard it would be to run sailfish incl that aliendalvik, or whatever they use, in a VM under neofremantle maemo5
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<drathir>
some chargers even notice charging slowly discharge the battery ;p
* Kabouik_
wishes DocScrutinizer05 could come up with a solution to run it.
<Kabouik_>
Yes drathir, I have to use an external charger, but still, only one battery manages to be enough for the N900 to boot.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not a one man software development secret task force
<Kabouik_>
Sure. ;)
<drathir>
with noname better not goin down 1A if You wish load n900... im fine on 850mA rim one charger eg...
<DocScrutinizer05>
UG could sponsor or even contract the development
<Kabouik_>
Problem is SF porters manage to make SF work on other device (although not 100%), and Aliendalvik is always the missing part unless an official partnership is agreed
<DocScrutinizer05>
you only need the VM
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
l8rs anyway, o/
* drathir
was some time ago run missed in maemo programs from chroot into alarm on sdcard ;p and console apps worked as fast as running in native mode...
<DocScrutinizer05>
people even ran windows and macOS in a vm on N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, pretty slow
<drathir>
some new cpu-s even have hw acceleration for vm-s but ofc that more for x86...
<drathir>
ofc not mention and consider the prices bc probably will not looks friendly so fast...
<Kabouik_>
Speaking of SF DocScrutinizer05, an encouraging point is we already know that SF is smooth on a N9.
<Kabouik_>
Or smooth enough at least, since a N950 was used at some point for demos
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* enyc
spots the OMAP5 discussion
<enyc>
this may be sensible, though some will tend to shout 'feature creep' a lot at this stage
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<xman>
Posted this in irc the other day, thought I'd ask again. What are the realistic chance to change the usb to usb-c form, but regular usb2 features?
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<MonkeyofDoom>
xman: <DocScrutinizer05> xman: change the usb? <DocScrutinizer05> don't even think about it! <DocScrutinizer05> use an adapter <DocScrutinizer05> we took special care to make sure the micro-USB receptacle *never* comes off the PCB, like it's notorious for N900 ;-)
<MonkeyofDoom>
sounds unlikely
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<wpwrak>
"never" may be exaggerated. i mean, there's little that can stop a determined man with a sledgehammer
* enyc
=)
<xman>
MonkeyofDoom: Your formatting is confusing me :D. So not sure if you speaking for DocScrutinizer05. But it was just a conversationally question about more future proofing.
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<XDS2010>
can anyone here spare 50 cents? im having a issue
<amatus>
do you have change for a dollar?
<XDS2010>
amatus: i can send you a dollar
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