<Oksana>
Huh... Tiny question: would Neo900 be able to handle 5V battery, and how much jumping through the hoops would be required for that? Just taking a look at http://powerjapanplus.com/
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<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry that website makes me puke, takes 20s to load a dunno flash file or whatever, even has a percentage counter
<DocScrutinizer05>
is there a lynx compatible version of that stuff?
<Oksana>
Not sure. I have disabled all plugins, images, and colours, so I do not see this stuff /even if it loads; I am trying to learn to use uMatrix/
<Oksana>
They have their info in text format, not sure why they even included huge files in here
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway: main battery supply voltage: max 4.5V
<Oksana>
Once their home page /with sci-fi quote/ loads, there is Entry button above the quote /took me a minute to figure it out/ and then the navigation is fairly intuitive
<DocScrutinizer05>
ABS MAX RATINGS TWL4030
<DocScrutinizer05>
this is ABS MAX
<Oksana>
As in, would it make sense to use 4.2V battery all-the-time?
<Oksana>
ABS MAX: is it short-term max, or long-term max?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
"ABS MAX" is a defined term as in "any operating conditions exceeding those described in ABS MAX could permanently damage the component"
<Oksana>
Okay, so 4.5V is long-duration :-) Nice to know, will be asking powerjapanplus.com if they are interested in mobile-phone-batteries
<DocScrutinizer05>
what you're asking for are probably "recommended operating conditions"
<Oksana>
Yes, something like "long-term operating conditions which will not damage component(s)"
<Oksana>
2.7V-to-4.5V as recommended battery supply voltage... Nice :-) Oookay... -40 to 85 Celsius is generous temperature range, I am sure there are other chips inside which do not have such "recommended operating conditions"
<DocScrutinizer05>
we try to have all chips on that range
<DocScrutinizer05>
battery however is ABS MAX temp of 60°C iirc
<Oksana>
Great :-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
most chips even have higher max temp allowed, like 140°C. However some chips are not specified down to -40°C
<Oksana>
On that note, would N900 chip have such nice recommended operating conditions?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nfc, since even one type of chip comes with different (particularly temp range) ratings
<DocScrutinizer05>
so not even my hires scans will help you answer that question
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<Oksana>
Okay, so if such hypothetical 4.2V suitably shaped battery comes into existence, N900 would work with it, too /hopefully/
<DocScrutinizer05>
huh? 4.2V are standard
<DocScrutinizer05>
4.2V max, 3.7V nominal, 3.5V min
<DocScrutinizer05>
== BL-5J
<DocScrutinizer05>
what gets nasty is trying to operate the TWL4030 from a 3 Alkaline batteries which have a max voltage of 1.6V
<DocScrutinizer05>
2 are too low a voltage, 3 are possibly too high
* Oksana
winces... Alkaline are non-rechargeable, NiMH would have been my choice if going this difficult-to-shape route
<DocScrutinizer05>
solution: connect them to USB-VBUS
<DocScrutinizer05>
NiMH are 1.2V, so *3 = 3.6V, sounds fine
<DocScrutinizer05>
haven't checked the modem though
<Oksana>
Ah, I never tried to multimeter LiIon batteries yet. But despite 4.2V max, they are usually 3.7V or around, yes? I am wondering about "4.2V nominal", but it is of course important to keep it "4.5V max"
<DocScrutinizer05>
some manufs label their batteries weirdly
<DocScrutinizer05>
LiIon standard chemistry nominal vltage is 3.7V
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think it's a pretty nice charger chip
<DocScrutinizer05>
it even allows system bootup without battery inserted
<EndZ>
this i indeed quite nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
GSM is a tad on the fence
<DocScrutinizer05>
current bursts of GSM modem during TX *might* exceed the max available power in that mode
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly when same time the system is drawing full power for backlight, CPU, whatnot else
<EndZ>
shouldn't it be possible cutting down some power $foo when starting TX?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Isys_max 3.5A
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure it is
<DocScrutinizer05>
you need to do that in software however
<EndZ>
mh
<EndZ>
else it is #yolo? :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I *think* you even can reduce max TX output of modem via AT command
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's #yolo?
<EndZ>
you only live once
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah
<DocScrutinizer05>
the system will shut down hard, aka reset
<Oksana>
Then battery chip, when noticing no-battery, could ask software to reduce max TX output of modem via AT command?
<EndZ>
mh
<DocScrutinizer05>
Oksana: yep, absolutely
<EndZ>
randomly resets sound not so good
<EndZ>
but better than a fried chip
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, the charger chip will prolly go into overcurrent cutout mode and the effect is like removing battery
<DocScrutinizer05>
on a system that's battery powered
<DocScrutinizer05>
no fried chips on my designs ;-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
would just be too embarrassing, I'm a decent EE
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm aware of the abuse you see on devices out in the field. So I insist in my designs to survive all but the most nasty ones
<DocScrutinizer05>
USB ABS MAX volts = 16V is around the minimum I'd be willing to accept
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, the modem is supposed to draw max bursts of 2A iirc, the chip can deliver 3.5A
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup >> VBATT+ never drops below 3.3V on the PHS8-E board, not even in a transmit burst where current consumption can rise to typical peaks of 2A.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
1.5A for the system is a dang lot
<DocScrutinizer05>
so the whole worries about reset on TX is mostly hypothetical
<EndZ>
i will try getting it :P
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless we have to implement a hardwired current limit lower than 3.5A, to protect the battery during charging
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: note to schematics team: connect [power on switch] to BQ24297 QON (active high)
<DocScrutinizer05>
rationale: we want to use the BQ24297 feature to disconnect battery from VBatt even of TWL4030
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually on BQ it's calles SYS, not Vbat
<DocScrutinizer05>
called*
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>To extend battery life and minimize power when system is powered off during system idle, shipping, or storage, the device can turn off BATFET so that the system voltage is zero to minimize the leakage.<<
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: actually I think with BQ24297's "shipping mode" we don't need an additional FET switch for the VBatt rail (VBATT_SWITCHED)
<DocScrutinizer05>
so we save a FET, and HB VBATT_SWITCHED = BQ24297 pin SYS, while HB VBATT = BQ24297 BAT
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, modulo the fuses
<DocScrutinizer05>
proper power-down in (usual) battery powered mode is done via the FET in BQ then, and nothing except modem (and BQ) will be connected to battery anymore
<DocScrutinizer05>
comments?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm aware that this doesn't warrant complete system down state while charger attached, but... we don't have such state anyway at least for Maemo ;-). Maemo always boots up (to linux ACT_DEAD mode init level) as soon as a charger gets attached. And we still have the individual controls in peripherals to power them down one by one
<DocScrutinizer05>
impact from risk of high quiescent current like expected by me for the backlight converter is negligible when attached to USB charger
<svetlana>
_especially_ interesting for electric cars and, imo, also mobiles
<DocScrutinizer05>
nanotube anodes, yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
ohmy, laymen at journalism: >>Because that battery has a capacity of 24 kWh, a back-of-the-envelope extrapolation would give us a charging time of 42 minutes for the 85 kWh battery of a top of the line Tesla Model S.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
why would a larger bbattery charge slower? it only needs more charging power to charge at exactly same speed - in exactly same time - as a tiny one
<DocScrutinizer05>
I however think the adavntages for phones are not that remarkable, since >>Power Japan also claims that their battery has energy density comparable to state of the art lithium-ion, with manufacturing costs that are equal or lower<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
the only advantage so far is fast charging
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>3,000 charge/discharge cycles << is good
<DocScrutinizer05>
this sounds unfortunate: >>And it would be more powerful than other batteries, operating at over four volts.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
svetlana: I'm on my workstation (DocScrutinizer05)
<svetlana>
ok
<svetlana>
why unfortunate?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it sounds a tad like "incompatible with normal LiIon"
<svetlana>
what voltage do normal batteries have?
<DocScrutinizer05>
4.2V at max charge, 3.2V at end of discharge
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually dubbed "nominal voltage: 3.7V"
<DocScrutinizer05>
some call it 3.6V, some call it 4.2V
<DocScrutinizer05>
some few cells claim 4.3V or even 4.4V max voltage
<Oksana>
As long as their batteries max voltage is lower than 4.5V, should be fine. Their words are variable (4V,5V, and so on), so I can only assume that they can create batteries of different voltages, and (probably) energy density is higher for high-voltage-cases
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 charger can handle up to 4.4V
<Oksana>
Also, their batteries do not overheat, do not catch on fire, do not explode. Tiny advantage, but useful one
<Oksana>
Okay, 4.4V then
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, no thermal runaway is a huge advantage on secondary properties
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<wpwrak>
notorious ? "known widely and usually unfavorably; [syn: {ill-famed}, {infamous}]"
<wpwrak>
i'd use "ubiquitous" :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, I actually meant _exactly_ that :-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I have a record of using "notorious" in an incorrect way, but I learned and here it's exactly the right word
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: you've seen my reasoning above about BQ24297?
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm
<DocScrutinizer05>
~dict notorious
<infobot>
Dictionary 'notorious' (1 of 3): \No*to"ri*ous\, a. [L. notorius pointing out, making known, fr. noscere, notum, to known: cf. F. notoire. See {Know}.] Generally known and talked of by the public; universally believed to be true; manifest to the world; evident; -- usually in an unfavorable sense; as, a notorious thief; a notorious crime or vice. [1913 Webster] Your goodness, Since you provoke me, shall be most notorious. --Shak. [1913 Webster] Syn: ...
<wpwrak>
(notorious) ah, so you don't like coin cells :)
<wpwrak>
(bq) at a first glance, it looks reasonable, yes. and less FET is always healthier :)
<Oksana>
Well, when coin cell is soldered to the device, and sometimes becomes hopelessly discharged...
<wpwrak>
ah, soldering them is one thing i definitely wouldn't try to do :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: EEEK, I'm a fool. What about RTC alarms then?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: backup battery ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
will not suffice to switch on the system or just the BQ, right?
<wpwrak>
hmm, guess what would depend on whether there are suitable outputs ... and inputs
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless TWL4030 has a dedicated ALARM pin
<wpwrak>
of course, is RTC-based system-on something we actually need to support ? for this kind of system, power-down doesn't look all that attractive
<DocScrutinizer05>
please rephrase the second part
<DocScrutinizer05>
N900 supports power-up from RTC alarm
<DocScrutinizer05>
it actually works great
<Oksana>
Alarms on even when phone is off, is an important feature. Minimising power drain during power-off would be nice, all the same, despite the complications of being-able-to-wake-up-for-alarm-during-total-power-off
<svetlana>
i read as 'n900 students' and was EXCITED :D :D :D :D
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<DocScrutinizer05>
also our bup'bat' has only power for a few minutes or max hours
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<DocScrutinizer05>
and we don't want TWL4030 Vbat on any other charger chip terminal than SYS
<DocScrutinizer05>
to allow powering up the system without battery inserted
<DocScrutinizer05>
ergo: nevermind my nice idea above. We can't save that FET
<DocScrutinizer05>
we however gained a new device mode: SHIPPING
<wpwrak>
(rtc hw signal) it would seem that one can route the RTC alarm interrupt to the INT1/INT2 lines of the TPS65950. no dedicated RTC output line.
<wpwrak>
(new restrictions on shipping lithium batteries)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
eeew
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<wpwrak>
nothing too nasty so far, just something to keep in mind
<wpwrak>
i guess some day they'll get summarily banned, though
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, they ship dynamite too
<DocScrutinizer05>
just the rules may change
<wpwrak>
that is, from cargo. more difficult to get people to not take their gadgets in the cabin :)
<wpwrak>
dynamite may actually be safer :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe, yep
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<wpwrak>
a fun combination would be li-ion plus dynamite, though. heck, throw in a barrel of nitroglycerine as well :) "the captain has turned on the fasten seat belt sign because we are entering an are of turb*BOOM*"
<DocScrutinizer05>
mozilla already shipped the LiIon BL-5J in a separate carton, not in the N900 package
<wpwrak>
guess they know what may get separated :)
<wpwrak>
as in "this goes on the plane, that into the bin"
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, I think both went by plane
<DocScrutinizer05>
but you actually may not ship LiIon together with anything else. Single phones are an exemption rule
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess even a phone and a LiIon in a dedicated carton can be bundled into arbitrary size palettes
<wpwrak>
yes, i was exaggerating. they won't throw them away. but they may get held. so better not to have the whole shipment blocked.
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>It's the amount of cells that matter as depriving an lithium chemical fire of oxygen changes nothing. They will burn, and if another cell is close, then the problem escalates.
<DocScrutinizer05>
Good call, ship pallets of lithium cells on ships or design for pilots to be able to jettison cargo.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
LiIon bombs, great ;-P
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I actually wondered which weirdo thought packing all LiIon cells into one package, one on top of the other, would be a great idea. However iirc that was the regulation how to ship multiple cells: nothing else in same carton
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds pretty counter productive to stop a mass thermal runaway
<wpwrak>
well, at least the thing is less likely to be mis-declared by accident
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd mandate there must be inert or at least non-flammable material as a filler between cells, at least 10 times the volume of the cells themselves
<DocScrutinizer05>
and probably with a thermal mass high enough to dissipate the heat of one cell going boom, without heating up to higher temperature than 50°C
<DocScrutinizer05>
ideally a salt with low melting point
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<wpwrak>
great. then you have liquid salt sloshing around your plane ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
so what? it's only 50°C hot
<DocScrutinizer05>
and it won't escape the packaging since one cell exploding won't melt all the salt
<DocScrutinizer05>
the purpose is exactly to avoid other cells joining in to a chain reaction
<DocScrutinizer05>
so it's highly unlikely you ever see any molten salt, you can't unpack the carton fast enough
<DocScrutinizer05>
the only thing this sort of bulk shipping is susceptible to would be external temperatures >60°C for long timespan
<DocScrutinizer05>
this would melt all salt and after that melting heat the whole content up to the thermal runaway tripping point temperature of the cells
<DocScrutinizer05>
this would indeed not have a happy ending
<DocScrutinizer05>
with or without cooling salt
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<DocScrutinizer05>
on na cheaper but heavier and less effective approach, s/salt/sand/
<DocScrutinizer05>
then the mere mass aka weight of the sand has to dissipate all the energy, without heating up next cell to >40°C
<DocScrutinizer05>
even on a jet flame when cell vents
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* DocScrutinizer05
should finally eat own dog food and repack those few dozen BL-5J
<DocScrutinizer05>
one fire is enough for one lifetime ;-)
<enyc>
repack??
<enyc>
oh, externally, onot the insides of them
<DocScrutinizer05>
Hetzner Online Statusmeldung: Urgent maintenance work on vHosts 1 - 1493 Start: March 8, 2016 6:30:00 AM CET End: March 8, 2016 8:30:00 AM CET (expected)
<DocScrutinizer05>
repacking a single cell is not exactly trivial :-D
<DocScrutinizer05>
usually cell layers get stacked and rolled and inserted into the alu shell under a inert atmosphere, then the pack gets soaked with the electrolyte liquid and sealed
<enyc>
=)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the latter two prolly under vacuum
<DocScrutinizer05>
lithium rods get shipped under petrol
<enyc>
any interesting news on the EDA tools ??
<DocScrutinizer05>
yet those rods are specified as "has oxide coat of up to 10% of mass"
<DocScrutinizer05>
no interesting news yet
<enyc>
what does this mean for investors?
<DocScrutinizer05>
this means we suffer another unforeseen delay
<enyc>
i mean, what does this mean about timing efforts to attract mero ivnestors with best possible credibility of completing
<DocScrutinizer05>
on the bright side: our generous sponsor seems to go real
<enyc>
this i didn't know details about =)
<wpwrak>
enyc: not all the good news are public ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm reluctant to share too inmature news, the disappointment is too high when things don't pan out as expected
<enyc>
Cambridge Cycling Campaign talk of having an anonymous donor whose matching other funding etc... =)
<enyc>
they don't say who it is but its not caused controversy
<DocScrutinizer05>
our sponsor also prefers to stay annonymous to the public
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<enyc>
fine =)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway we're actively sourcing those 250 N900 finally
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wish it were 500 though
<Xiaoman>
>Estimated shipping date: Q1/2016
<Xiaoman>
should that be updated?
<DocScrutinizer05>
oh yes, if that's still somewhere, it needs urgent update
<bencoh>
indeed
<enyc>
i think you were saying elecotrnicos engineers for the intregaration with access to iright tools, hard to get
<enyc>
raies interesting questions, about expecting and not expecting delays
<enyc>
like... 'how much unexpecteds should be budgeted for'
<DocScrutinizer05>
aiui usually industry calculates a margin of 200% on top of production cost, and the R&D, shipping, whatnot, and all risks are covered by this, due to the sufficiently high production/sales volumes. Our project is calculated rather different than that
<DocScrutinizer05>
so with our extremely small production volume, each event like a delay or a (relatively minor, on industry scale) substantial donation can already cause huge changes in final sales price of the devices, possibly up to a few hundred bucks per device
<DocScrutinizer05>
so does increasing the number of sales - alas we're limited here by availability of N900 to upgrade
<DocScrutinizer05>
each month of my work costs each customer around 5€
<EndZ>
what is the new estimated time?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Q3 at best
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<EndZ>
real project problems :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have a scheduling issue right now, since we need to restructure/reassign to cope with the GDC situation
<DocScrutinizer05>
the Q1 estimation was from before PayPal disaster even
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<DocScrutinizer05>
Xiaoman: thanks a lot!
<Xiaoman>
no problem
<Xiaoman>
I'm still on the fence though
<Xiaoman>
I don't think I can justify the price for the device :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, that's quite unfortunate that we couldn't get any more economic on sales prices
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, maybe we can readjust the prices when we receive lots of orders in the future - and actually can source the N900 for such a high volume
<Xiaoman>
Yeah, I wouldn't mind paying €500, but an estimate of >€1000 is just not something I want to pay for any general purpose electronic device
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have 190k€ "fixed" expenses which are now divided by 500 sold devices, resulting in a 380€ per device, for a 1000 this would be half
<Xiaoman>
40 % as €480 is quite a bit more than €380 though
<Xiaoman>
or am I missing something?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for 2000 it would be ~100 instead 380€ per device, and economy of scale kicks in on the per device expense for components
<DocScrutinizer05>
sdorry, I think we're not talking about same subject
<DocScrutinizer05>
are you talking about the down payment for complete device?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
€500 per device... let's see: we have ~120€ expense for the N900, we have a ~80€ expense for the modem alone. According to http://neo900.org/estimate the electronic components and assembly cause expense of 470€ for the bare board, plus the 120€ for the N900... see?
<Xiaoman>
I'm talking about all the expenses I would have to get my hands on a Neo900
<Xiaoman>
I understand that it is not cheap to do this
<Xiaoman>
But I'm just not entire willing to pay this much for a device like this
<Xiaoman>
I think it is a really cool project, hence why I'm still on the fence
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<DocScrutinizer05>
if Neo900 was a car, it wouldn't be a series car, it would be a unique manually built car manufactured especially to your requests
<Xiaoman>
Exactly
<Xiaoman>
and I drive a small WV :3
<DocScrutinizer05>
I feel with you, alas there's just so much we can do. Let's hope for another 2000 preorders and everybody will get a much cheaper device
<Xiaoman>
yeah
<Xiaoman>
That's why I hoped there would come a lot of hype at 32c3
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, me too. Was no success it seems
<DocScrutinizer05>
aaah wait, I hoped for CCCamp
<EndZ>
i completely missed visiting the neo900 camp @CCCamp
<EndZ>
although i went there ~daily when showering
<enyc>
Xiaoman: hopefully when board design logistics sorted, we will be able to make moe credible pledge for more orders having got plan to complete =)
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<Xiaoman>
enyc: I'll be sitting on my hands in anticipation
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