<nfk>
but when you use any IDE fro languages it was not originally meant to suppor the experience is really bad
<nfk>
*for
<nfk>
i guess the best all-rounder would be vim
<nfk>
which is why i often just use it
<nfk>
but i really can't be bothered to learn all the commands
<RubyTitmouse>
IDEs are all about waiting for graphical widgets to expand and collapse and refocusing your eyes, it has nothing to do with language support
<pipecloud>
nfk: That's why I just use vim. I comes with its own crappy scripting language!
<pipecloud>
ctags is all you need to be happy
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<nfk>
food and girls is all it takes to be happy
<RubyTitmouse>
also, they lower your work load and make life easier by giving you lots of 2 second micro-breaks while you context shift between mouse and keyboard
<nfk>
and some water and sunshine
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<nfk>
and no bad weather
<RubyTitmouse>
those seconds add up, wait a year and you've got a whole extra break out of it
<pipecloud>
nfk: What if you're gay or dead?
<nfk>
i think i'll go with that plan rather than ctags
<perldork>
Syntastic and YouCompleteMe make vim much more IDE-like for people who are used to syntax completion and syntax checking
<nfk>
pipecloud, i did include girls, didn't it?
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<pipecloud>
nfk: I don't think you understand.
<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse is dead inside.
<nfk>
RubyTitmouse, arguably a personal maid also lowers your work load and makes your life easier by giving you...
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<pipecloud>
The only thing that makes him happy is disagreeing with people.
<RubyTitmouse>
No, I'm happily married
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<perldork>
that's what pipecloud said: dead inside :)
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<RubyTitmouse>
nfk: hiring a maid will reduce local unemployment, it has to be good
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<pipecloud>
perldork: :D
<RubyTitmouse>
perldork: no, that's unhappily married. I was smart, I found a nice Buddhist girl.
<nfk>
RubyTitmouse, not if you import'er
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<perldork>
RUbyTitmouse: that was a joke, not a serious comment on the state of your marriage
<pipecloud>
He's like a zombie, refusing to acknowledge the death that comes from within.
<nfk>
well, that seconds amount to a break within a year did make me shudder
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<RubyTitmouse>
People don't normally import maids, the immigrate first and are already here and then get hired
<RubyTitmouse>
The ones people bring are where they were already in their employee, and fully trained/beaten down
<nfk>
it's like... shouldn't you be saying "all this scripting let's me enjoy two extra weeks off work and doing manly things i enjoy"?
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<nfk>
*lets
* nfk
yawns
<RubyTitmouse>
All this scripting lets me enjoy extra time off on IRC, sipping lemonade
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<nfk>
i'd rather be doing something fun
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<nfk>
and something people will envy you for
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<shevy>
I'd wish I could have lemonade right now :(
<mrmcdonalds>
hey im having trouble installing ruby 1.9.3
<RubyTitmouse>
If you're worried about wanting people to envy you, you're already lost
<mrmcdonalds>
using rvm it says error running bunzip2
<RubyTitmouse>
shevy: I'm actually out of lemons, it is all limeade today
<nfk>
RubyTitmouse, dunno about servers but kde and laptop was misserable experience
<mrmcdonalds>
ok great
<shevy>
I'd wish someone would take over ruby-qt
<RubyTitmouse>
I've been laughing at kde since like.... 2000
<pipecloud>
mrmcdonalds: I'd suggest using shoes at first.
<nfk>
bad clashes with gnome/systemd/ibus morons and general lack of applications
<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse: Before KDE stopped taking themselves seriously!
<mrmcdonalds>
gem is working
<MJBrune>
pipecloud: stop giving horrible advice.
<mrmcdonalds>
thanks!!!!
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: I'm not. :)
<mrmcdonalds>
i thought shoes looked pretty cheezy
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: Debian and Ubuntu can't package ruby for shit. :)
<shevy>
shoes was nice when _why was still in charge
<MJBrune>
It is and rather bad.
<shevy>
without _why they lost their soul
<RubyTitmouse>
Shoes is for kids to learn on, mostly
<nfk>
oh god, lack of applications, on kubuntu i have to build some multimedia software myself but on fedora there was so much stuff lacking it was impossble
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: What kind of cocaine are you doing that you think repository rubies aren't utter shit?
<pipecloud>
I'll have what he's having.
<nfk>
i couldn't play neither dvds nor youtube
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<MJBrune>
pipecloud: dude repo rubies are fine.
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: Nope.
<MJBrune>
pipecloud: lol okay dude you manually update and go outside of the norms on installion of ruby.
<RubyTitmouse>
Traditionally, distro rubies were always (literally!) over 25% slower than a source install
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: if you are worried about speed then you really shouldn't use ruby at all.
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: If we're going to go with system packages, which I love, at least use the ones from brightbox.
<RubyTitmouse>
because portable optimization is hard, and a source build gets optimized automatically by the toolchain
<shevy>
ever since debian once removed mkmf from their default rubies, I can not trust distribution specific rubies anymore
<nfk>
RubyTitmouse, bad news, no one has noticed how you are laughing at kde, maybe you should try being more vocal about it
<nfk>
like put it on a tshirt
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: I can't ask people to package their own ruby for their system. Scares them to do it properly.
<Xuisce>
hi shevy
<Xuisce>
;)
<Xuisce>
:)
<Xuisce>
:D
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<pipecloud>
The repo rubies are just broken, and if you use it and think it's right, I worry for you and your mental health.
<RubyTitmouse>
MJBrune: I'm not one to worry much about speed, but when just recompiling makes it faster, that is good
<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse recompiles his kernel for microsecond savings during boot.
<RubyTitmouse>
nfk: No need, they can succeed or fail it doesn't effect my Gtk apps :)
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: eh, compiling anything makes it faster than using a package.
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: go use FreeBSD if you really want speed.
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<RubyTitmouse>
not for 10 years, but in the old days when the distros shipped slow over-ly monolithic kernels, yes, I did
<pipecloud>
Or make custom hardware that implements ruby if you want true speed.
<mrmcdonalds>
gtk
<nfk>
MJBrune, i really wonder about that
<mrmcdonalds>
how do i run gtk yall
<MJBrune>
nfk: about what?
<nfk>
freebsd is at this point a dinosaur
<mrmcdonalds>
gtk2
<shevy>
mrmcdonalds did you download that package?
<pipecloud>
mrmcdonalds: RubyTitmouse knows a good amount about how to do it well.
<mrmcdonalds>
yes its loaded
<mrmcdonalds>
used apt
<shevy>
ack
<MJBrune>
nfk: actually its modern still. It's kept up to date and pretty powerful.
<shevy>
sorry, I can't help you with apt
<mrmcdonalds>
i know you hate apt
<mrmcdonalds>
lol
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: I doubt you'll need to use source
<shevy>
yeah
<mrmcdonalds>
its in gem
<mrmcdonalds>
sorry
<mrmcdonalds>
installed in gem
<RubyTitmouse>
I used freebsd in 2007-8 but I came back because I like iptables
<shevy>
but I can tell you my way, perhaps it helps you
<nfk>
MJBrune, also there's no performance to be had on modern hardware
<mrmcdonalds>
please
<RubyTitmouse>
other than that, it is the same
<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse: But the new hotness, rite
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: iptables is utter trash so...
<nfk>
on the other hand latencies are hard to get right
<RubyTitmouse>
I remember people not wanting to go from ipchains to iptables because they didn't want any new features... at least they had a point
<mrmcdonalds>
ok thanks ill try
<mrmcdonalds>
they are .rb??
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: I find it funny that you talk about iptables being trash, but you use repository ruby.
<nfk>
having them too low will eat performance and then eat at your performance
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: lol. I have used completely the following firewall systems: iptable, ipfw, pf anf ipf
<shevy>
sure, these are ruby bindings to gtk mrmcdonalds
<nfk>
and having them too high will ruin your life
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: pf is the best hands down.
<RubyTitmouse>
MJBrune: what don't you like about iptables?
<MJBrune>
pipecloud: eh that's because I don't use ruby for speed. No one should.
<mrmcdonalds>
great found it thank you so muhc
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: My argument isn't speed. It's correctness in packaging.
<mrmcdonalds>
so i run it like a ruby file right shevy
<mrmcdonalds>
just ruby file.rb
<pipecloud>
Shit's broke. They sort of fixed rubygems a while back.
<shevy>
mrmcdonalds yeah
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<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: it's slow.
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: super super super slow
<shevy>
mrmcdonalds try the "main.rb" in gtk subfolder, it links all examples
<pipecloud>
It is a bit slow, yeah.
<shevy>
or sample.rb I am not sure
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<shevy>
or just run all of them one after the other ;)
<pipecloud>
s/run/read/
<mrmcdonalds>
none are working
<mrmcdonalds>
says cant get requireds
<shevy>
say thanks to apt!
<mrmcdonalds>
dang lol
<pipecloud>
mrmcdonalds: What is the error message?
<shevy>
but I think it should actually work
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: see iptables on a router will kill your internet connections. It can't handle load and its meant to be a software firewall for every computer not on a specific box so every computer doesn't need a firewall.
<shevy>
not even debian can be that dumb
<RubyTitmouse>
I dunno, I usually use 10 year old boxes for routers, so they're so blazing fast I'd never notice the slow speed of the firewall. Especially since I never go past gigabit eth.
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: which is the wrong way to secure a network.
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<shevy>
mrmcdonalds I have an idea, lemme find the hello world
<RubyTitmouse>
"see iptables on a router will kill your internet connections." <--- derp!
<mrmcdonalds>
runtime error, unknown command gtk
<pipecloud>
mrmcdonalds: Gist the command you ran, the file you were executing, and the error please. :D
<RubyTitmouse>
Right, you don't like iptables because of FUD.
<mrmcdonalds>
gist?
<pipecloud>
mrmcdonalds: /topic
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<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse: Well, fwiw, he recommends the repo ruby because bad reasons too.
<nfk>
MJBrune, i'm pretty sure iptables on 2.4 kernel is how most of router crapware handles NAT
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: I've had my 233 mhz gateway running httpd, ircd and pf. 100% fine. able to get 100GB/s out of it.
<nfk>
and, guess what, this desktop box is also doing NAT and real firewalling for the LAN and, yes, i'm using iptables
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: I don't like iptables because its slow.
<shevy>
mrmcdonalds, what if you try to save this in a .rb file then run it: http://pastie.org/8713270
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<nfk>
and my speeds are something most of you can only dream of
<RubyTitmouse>
MJBrune: you're probably just doing it wrong
<mrmcdonalds>
let me try that now shevy
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: lol okay dude, who has FUD now?
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<shevy>
that is a weird error mrmcdonalds
<RubyTitmouse>
It isn't "FUD" that iptables works well.
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: your the one clinging to iptables and not able to even check out pf or any alternative.
<nfk>
100 GB/s when the upcomming Ethernet standard is 40 GB/s, i call massive BS on you
<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse: Well, if you load a shitload of rules, it does get slower.
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<RubyTitmouse>
Even if you disagree, it can't be "FUD." It is not fearful, uncertain, or doubting. It is confident and experienced with the tool.
<mrmcdonalds>
it worked
<shevy>
wait
<mrmcdonalds>
!!
<nfk>
in fact, it's probably 40Gib/s
<shevy>
I get the same error
<mrmcdonalds>
shevy the code worked
<shevy>
so it is fine mrmcdonalds
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<mrmcdonalds>
yes sir
<shevy>
\o/
<MJBrune>
The fact is that no corporate environment uses iptables for a large network.
<pipecloud>
mrmcdonalds: How'd you get it to work after that error?
<mrmcdonalds>
so where can i get documentation on hwo to do this
<shevy>
now you can explore ALL these examples
<MJBrune>
Just think about it.
<shevy>
in the files ;)
<LLKCKfan>
Is there any natural ways to relieve pain without using herbs or weed? No drugs
<mrmcdonalds>
ok thank you shevy
<shevy>
I learned most by looking at what they do
<shevy>
and the wiki mrmcdonalds
<mrmcdonalds>
and i only need ruby right
<pipecloud>
mrmcdonalds: The examples show you how, the rest is source mostly, I'd guess. Perhaps online docs?
<RubyTitmouse>
How could using freebsd for 2 years and coming back because I like iptables mean I was able to check any alternative?
<RubyTitmouse>
un
<mrmcdonalds>
thank you all sooooo much
<pipecloud>
mrmcdonalds: You need to either have gtk installed or package it with yoru app
<mrmcdonalds>
glad i got away from shoes
<shevy>
mrmcdonalds AND you are lucky that apt worked!
<mrmcdonalds>
oh so its not cross platform
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: "Just think about it" isn't compelling evidence.
<pipecloud>
mrmcdonalds: It is.
<shevy>
it works on windows too if you have ruby installed
<shevy>
but windows can be very annoying
<mrmcdonalds>
hm
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: lol because you never used it in an professional environment.
<nfk>
[02:24] <MJBrune> The fact is that no corporate environment uses iptables for a large network. // yeah, they probably use something from cisco, juniper and their clients are all windows
<mrmcdonalds>
so how can i package a program so its just download and run
<shevy>
and there is no maintainer for windows so...
<pipecloud>
You just need to bundle gtk if you don't want to have the user install gtk themselves.
<RubyTitmouse>
mrmcdonalds: I use Ruby Gtk and dev on linux, it works 100% on windows, and I've never had to change a single line of code for portability (!)
<nfk>
i consider corporate to be an example of how not to do things
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<mrmcdonalds>
great thank you ruby
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: I work for a network security company and we're building out to be a registrar among many other related things, we use iptables.
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<MJBrune>
nfk: a lot of those are BSD and PF based.
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<mrmcdonalds>
ill get to it later i guess... but you just take all the files and convert it to a exe???
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<mrmcdonalds>
never done this before :) thank you all
<RubyTitmouse>
On windows you install the normal windows Gtk, install "one-click" ruby, install their "devkit", then gem install "gtk2" and you're ready to roll
<shevy>
mrmcdonalds well a .exe would not quite work on linux
<pipecloud>
Just because some people do and don't use one or the other firewall it doesn't really provide any real value to the discussion on what's not shit and what is.
<mrmcdonalds>
i know i want to make a program peep could download from my site and use
<pipecloud>
mrmcdonalds: There's ruby gems that help with packaging code.
<mrmcdonalds>
on w/e
<nfk>
MJBrune, just like mac os x is bsd based, you keep telling yourself that
<shevy>
yeah, "gem install ruby-gnome" or so... should work
<MJBrune>
nfk: it is BSD based if you think it's not then you are fooling yourself.
<nfk>
[02:26] <shevy> mrmcdonalds well a .exe would not quite work on linux // i'm pretty sure chmod +x and they would
<mrmcdonalds>
ill worry about this later lol
<mrmcdonalds>
one thing at a time
<MJBrune>
nfk: using 90% of the userland makes you based on that userland.
<nfk>
this reminds me i should just go and play some fate/stay night
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<shevy>
nfk it would not!!!
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<nfk>
i wonder how many more years till i'm done with fate ark
<RubyTitmouse>
OS X is NextSTEP modified to use mostly fBSD cli userland
<shevy>
but wine *exe often will work
<nfk>
shevy, are you sure you have been up to speed with modern linux?
<RubyTitmouse>
Everybody knows that
<shevy>
nfk yeah!
<nfk>
shevy, the point is wine can register itself as a handler for PE
<nfk>
and then kernel can execute .exe
<shevy>
hmm
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<nfk>
as long as the file is executable
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<RubyTitmouse>
how more unix-y can you get than an academic micro-kernel and a BSD userland? Oh, it doesn't use X Window System, gee... I guess it can't be *nix... right?!
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<pipecloud>
.exe means nothing other than a file extension that's commonly used for windows executables.
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: no one is arguing that it isn't *nix
<nfk>
MJBrune, 90%? more like 10%
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<pipecloud>
Well, it's a Unix proper certified.
<MJBrune>
nfk: okay, keep pretending. It uses the damn TCP/IP stack from freebsd.
<nfk>
my nokia probably has more GPL code than iOS has BSD
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<pipecloud>
The first proper certified BSD.
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<nfk>
pipecloud, windows 7 pro is POSIX certified
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<pipecloud>
Yeah, but no one cares about POSIX certification other than RMS.
<RubyTitmouse>
it is like saying that linux isn't gnu because "linux is just a kernel"
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<MJBrune>
I didn't know that though windows 7 is posix?
<RubyTitmouse>
Heck, Windoze NT4 was POSIX, yes?
<nfk>
install the compatibility layer and it is
<nfk>
of course it will still work with only PE binaries and i'm not sure how well they implement the spec since returing "not implemented" is also valid, ha
<MJBrune>
RubyTitmouse: linux isn't gnu. Linux is Linux and GNU is GNU. Linux is just a kernel and techically its GNU/Linux but we shorten it to just Linux.
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<nfk>
and Android is Google/Linux
<RubyTitmouse>
Right, "linux" is short for "GNU/Linux" and therefore "linux" IS gnu! and linux!
<nfk>
now wait for Chrome which also would be Google/Linux
<nfk>
*ChromeOS
<RubyTitmouse>
There are lots of versions of Google/Linux these days
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: POSIX certigied.
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<pipecloud>
certified too
<pipecloud>
It's like aspie hour here. We were talking about how ruby from repositories sucks, then how firewalls suck, and then how operating systems suck, and now how we suck.
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<shevy>
that's how pipecloud looks in reallife! all furry and a twisted tail
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<RubyTitmouse>
If we can't even agree that repository ruby sucks, we must collectively suck pretty bad. At least on that there is consensus.
<nfk>
i never said it didn't
<nfk>
by the recommendation of a gentoo maintainer (not the main ruby maintainer though) i only install ruby and bundler and gem and then use those to install the rest)
<shevy>
who said that repository ruby is great, let's find him
<nfk>
and the stuff handled by portage is only installed by direct dependencies on something else
<shevy>
ewwww
<shevy>
python...
<shevy>
you make me sad nfk :(
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<shevy>
hmm if homebrew would work on linux...
<nfk>
just make gem not suck
<nfk>
in fact, let's just make portage the default package manager
<nfk>
and maybe improve the binary support so that it's easier to get started
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<nfk>
but in the end you either build everything from source or you can just run windows since even if source is available you can't know that the given source is what really was used to build your binaries
<shevy>
man
<shevy>
python is not meant to dominate the world
<shevy>
they can't even decide whether they want to use python2 or python3!
<nfk>
it's certainly got a good hold of it
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<AlexRussia>
nfk: hey, when you reply me?
<nfk>
?
<shevy>
nfj when you reply me too!!!
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<AlexRussia>
nfk: Who You?
<shevy>
lol
<AlexRussia>
shevy: really, he say, bla-bla you dont know where me.I HAVE KNOW
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<shevy>
well
<shevy>
yeah
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<shevy>
and now code ruby man!
<AlexRussia>
shevy: so serious, is interesing
<shevy>
soooo interesting :P
<AlexRussia>
shevy: ruby-man, superhero!
<AlexRussia>
XD
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<AlexRussia>
F**K, i'm again make joke
<AlexRussia>
nfk: wht you do? Make shit or reply me?
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<nfk>
shevy, i can confirm that my linux kernel can run .exe
<AlexRussia>
iconfirm my kernel send login and password for ssh to MS
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<nfk>
i just had to edit my game launcher scripts to prepend ./ because my jap games (well, VNs mostly) are not in PATH
<AlexRussia>
i'm confirm*
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<nfk>
boot the guy out?
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<nfk>
he's clearly high or stupid
<AlexRussia>
nfk: try search PATH in HELL
<AlexRussia>
boot guy?
<heckman>
When do mixins become visible to a class? I'm trying to call a function pulled in via an include statement from a Class method and I'm getting a 'NoMethodError'
<apeiros>
so "2.0" <=> "10.0" starts with "2" <=> "1"
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<centrx>
oh wait I misread the doc
<apeiros>
and since "2" > "1", comparison stops there already, determining "2.0" to be > "10.0"
<viki>
Oh
<viki>
Ok, cool, thanks
<apeiros>
yw
<viki>
I was trying to add ascii values or something
<apeiros>
well, rubys comparison is based on the binary value
<apeiros>
it (sadly) doesn't have collations
<viki>
i don't know what collations are
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<apeiros>
it's part of encoding information. it tells you which character has what sorting order.
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<apeiros>
for example, in english, it may be that "ä" > "z"
<apeiros>
but in german it's "a" < "ä" < "b"
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<apeiros>
not every language orders chars the same
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<viki>
Huh. Funky.
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<mmealling>
I'm writing a gem that should be usable outside of Rails. Is there a recommended way of handling configuration options so that 1) there is a reasonable default and 2) the user can create instances with custom configuration 3) every class has access to the configuration settings?
<mmealling>
(and 4) doesn't use a global variable so people won't yell at me for doing it wrong)
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<apeiros>
viki: btw., sorting strings like "photo2.jpg" < "photo10.jpg" is called "natural sorting"
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<apeiros>
and you'd do it by splitting the string into its string and number parts
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<mmealling>
apeiros, OK. so @config is an instance variable. If the gem implements several APIs (user commands, admin commands, etc) how should each class access @config?
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<viki>
apeiros: does the length of the string not matter? it's just sorting it like we'd sort things alphabetically, for example?
<pipecloud>
mmealling: Use a configuration block that you accept from users, like rspec does or anyone else with a config block.
<apeiros>
mmealling: you want an answer out of thin air, without giving details. sorry, no can do.
<pipecloud>
benzrf: #rvm
<benzrf>
ok
<nfk>
[03:34] <apeiros> for example, in english, it may be that "ä" > "z" // since modern Ruby (except 1.9) is using UTF-8 by default you are pretty much derped anyway
<apeiros>
viki: it only matters if up to the length of the shorter string, both strings are equal
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<nfk>
except for the part where ASCII codes are valid UTF-8 codes
<apeiros>
viki: in that case, the shorter string is considered smaller
<mmealling>
apeiros, fair enough. Might turn it into a blog article.
<viki>
apeiros: ah, ok. that helps, thanks!
<pipecloud>
mmealling: Why not just look around at the other gems that allow configuring?
<apeiros>
nfk: I don't get what you try to say
<nfk>
apeiros, for ASCII it will work
<pipecloud>
apeiros: 'blah blah blah' I think. :p
<nfk>
but anything outside ASCII will have UTF-8 codes
<apeiros>
nfk: I think you confuse things
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<apeiros>
nfk: the encoding doesn't inform about sorting. and ruby doesn't care about characters when sorting.
<apeiros>
ruby does plain byte comparisons.
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<nfk>
in case of ASCII encoding does allow one to sort uppper and lower case individually
<nfk>
but it won't work for anyting else
<apeiros>
yeah, you are confusing things.
<nfk>
unless i'm badly mistaken about how UTF-8 works
<apeiros>
ascii was built so that byte comparison will result in a sensible sort. but that's about it.
<nfk>
apeiros, well, can you file it under "I don't care"?
<apeiros>
nfk: why did you say something then?
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<pipecloud>
nfk likes attention! He's like a chihuahua! :D
* apeiros
files it under whatever
<pipecloud>
apeiros: Is whatever filed under /dev/null ?
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<apeiros>
I never checked where files under whatever actually end up
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<nfk>
probably some hatefile
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<pipecloud>
/dev/null/whatever
<apeiros>
I doubt that
<apeiros>
my hate-o-meter is pretty low
<pipecloud>
nfk: The amount of hate apeiros seemingly has is pretty nearly nil.
<nfk>
as in you start hating things easily?
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<apeiros>
as in: there are few things I truly hate
<pipecloud>
apeiros: Being subjected to PHP?
<nfk>
pipecloud, then what about the actual hate?
<apeiros>
most things I do hate come from microsoft or oracle
<pipecloud>
nfk: What actual hate?
<pipecloud>
apeiros: I, too, hate the open source graveyard.
<apeiros>
or rather: most things I do hate are things I'm forced to use.
<nfk>
pipecloud, you said seemingly
<pipecloud>
nfk: I cannot speak for apeiros. This is based on observation.
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<nfk>
ah, one of those "everything is relative" people spotted
<apeiros>
about other things I can get passionate, or heated. but hate is rarely involved.
<pipecloud>
nfk: Well, not really. It's more like, "I have not observed him hating very much in the time I have known him."
<centrx>
PHP is an abomination and a scourge on the face of the earth.
<nfk>
just this evening some phd started trash talking how science is the religion of western world on the radio
<nfk>
made me herp
<centrx>
nfk, Sounds right
<nfk>
i don't religiously believe in science
<pipecloud>
nfk: It would do you good to distinguish between not speaking for others and reddit-style relativity and "Define #{term}".
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<apeiros>
if you religiously believe in science, it's not science.
<nfk>
it's true i haven't tested everything myself but if basic physics started failing us, the wolrd itself would disintegrate before we could contemplate how it would happen
<centrx>
The religious thinks what he believes in is true.
<nfk>
*world
<apeiros>
religion is antithetic to science.
<pipecloud>
apeiros: What is if it you believe in scientifically intoxicating one's self because of religion?
<centrx>
Most of the people who believe what they hear about science do not know science, they believe in it
<nfk>
apeiros, exactly
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<pipecloud>
centrx: I disbelieve all things to be true.
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<apeiros>
all believe science needs is because of practical limitations
<centrx>
Just as a religious person who does not read the Bible believes in it because of the priests and those around him
<apeiros>
*belief
<nfk>
centrx, that's not science
<pipecloud>
bahleaf
<apeiros>
pipecloud: I don't understand that phrase :(
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<apeiros>
centrx: correct. I didn't go around and verify all science taught to me in school. but unlike with religion, it is possible in science.
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<centrx>
nfk, Sure, but the vast majority of people who "believe in" science have not done any experiments and have not read any scientific studies and lack even a basic understanding.
<apeiros>
as said - practical limitations require some belief.
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<centrx>
I have yet to see a proof that the future exists.
<pipecloud>
centrx: I have yet to see a vodka I don't like.
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<apeiros>
I have yet to see that you're not all bots
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<pipecloud>
apeiros: I have yet to see that you're not all just terrible iimplementations of markov chain bots.
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<centrx>
Terrible, terrible implementations
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<apeiros>
pipecloud: tell me more about this "markov chain bots"
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<pipecloud>
apeiros: I don't know! Tell me what you mean by "tell me more about this "markov chain bots""?
<apeiros>
Why don't you know! Tell you what me mean by" tell you more about this" markov chain bots""?
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<nfk>
centrx, they aren't doing science
<pipecloud>
I think centrx knows what "Why don't you know! Tell you what me mean by" tell you more about this" markov chain bots""?" means. centrx, are you there? What does this mean?
<centrx>
How are you today? What would you like to discuss?
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<pipecloud>
nfk: I did science once. Would not recommend.
<pipecloud>
He's a bit clingy and whingy.
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<nfk>
just like i'm not a christian just because i grew up in western world someone is not a scienctist just because they were born in western world or anywhere else
<centrx>
Science will get you wasted.
<nfk>
pipecloud, i did physics too
<nfk>
i would not go back from CS
<nfk>
anyway, i have done about 3-5 lab works
<pipecloud>
nfk: What is this "physics"?
<nfk>
from basic measurments and statistics to soundwaves and fluids
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<nfk>
pipecloud, physics as in physics
<pipecloud>
nfk: What is this "physics as in physics"?
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<nfk>
well, i got only as far as fluid dynamics and how electricity can be explained without maxel's equations before i decided i like computer smore than this and that my future will be bleak if i don't get out quickly
<nfk>
*computers
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<RubyTitmouse>
It is like a Chekov Chain Bot, but instead of stabbing it with a sword to change states, it just randomizes the inputs
<pipecloud>
What is "explained" and "equations"?
<centrx>
Constructs!
<nfk>
but my lab teacher was in fact taking part in CERN experiments so it was most certainly the real thing
<centrx>
Real science! Not those fakes like James Watson!
<centrx>
Niels Bohr was obviously an idiot, how can anyone disagree with that?
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<pipecloud>
centrx: Have you done science to determine if the science performed by those hacks was real science?
<viki>
apeiros: mind answering a silly question about object_id?
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<pipecloud>
viki: You can ask the channel. :)
<apeiros>
viki: I don't know without knowing the question!
<viki>
XD
<pipecloud>
apeiros: What if you _do_ know without knowing the question? Pretty creepy, right?
<centrx>
pipecloud, We were discussing you, not me.
<viki>
ok so if i assign a = 1, b = 1, and c = 1, calling object_id on a, b and c all give me 3 as the answer
<viki>
but if i assign x = "1" and call object_id on that, i get some random number as the answer
<apeiros>
yes, because ruby doesn't create new objects for 1
<centrx>
viki, Yes, there is only one integer "1".
<apeiros>
but it does create new objects for strings
<centrx>
It is a Platonic ideal
<viki>
ok so my variables aren't new objects, only the 1 is
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<apeiros>
viki: 1, "1", :foo, [] etc. are called "literal". that's because the value is literally in the code. it's not constructed or gotten from IO
<apeiros>
viki: there are some cases where literals will yield the same object all the time. and other cases, where ruby constructs a new object every time
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<pipecloud>
viki: Integers have static object id's no matter where you refer to them from or get them from.
<apeiros>
same object you'll get for: nil, true, false, :symbols, Fixnum instances
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<viki>
centrx huh. Cool. I'm not sure I'd have gathered from that that a variable assigned to an integer (uh, or vice versa) is covered by that, but now I know! Thanks :)
<apeiros>
viki: the object_id is unique at a given time within the same program
<centrx>
viki, Yeah, the official documentation is better for methods than for general language constructs
<apeiros>
so if two objects have the same object_id at the same time in the same program, then it's actually just one object
<mmealling>
pipecloud, because just about every gem does it differently. Seems that such a common pattern would have a recommended solution.
<viki>
apeiros huh. Interesting. Are there other examples of that besides numbers?
<apeiros>
viki: x = "foo"; y = x; y.object_id == x.object_id
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<apeiros>
both variable reference the same object
<pipecloud>
mmealling: Well, I did give you an example.
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<pipecloud>
There's many blog posts on it.
<pipecloud>
I suggested a solution too.
<bahar>
hi, i'm a little stumped on something. say, i have an array: [[2, 2], [7, 1]]
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<centrx>
Tell me more...
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<mmealling>
Yep, you did. Thanks! I was just noting that there isn't a consistent implementation out there.
<pipecloud>
bahar: You can't. That's my array. You can't have it!
<pipecloud>
mmealling: So?
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<pipecloud>
There's not a consistent implementation of a lot of things.
<bahar>
how do i manipulate the subarrays directly, say, [[2**2], [7**1]] and then add the result together, i.e., [[4] + [7]] = 11
<bahar>
haha
<viki>
apeiros oh ok, that makes sense, thanks!
<apeiros>
bahar: step by step
<mmealling>
pipecloud, but there are of other patterns. Before I set out to do the same thing but slightly differently again I figured I'd ask people smarter than myself.
<pipecloud>
mmealling: Rspec is smarter than you. :D
<apeiros>
ary[0] gets you the nested array. so ary[0][0] gives you 2 in your example
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<pipecloud>
Rails is smarter than you.
<bahar>
i tried some methods like array[0][0] to access specific parts of the array but that was a no go
<pipecloud>
I mean, the ruby on rails language does it, right? :D
<pipecloud>
bahar: Enumerable is your friend
<mmealling>
yes, but I want this to work without needing Rails.
<pipecloud>
mmealling: ...
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<bahar>
this is a little over my head, trying to learn :) it's harder because i have to deal with variable numbers of subarrays... it's not always going to be 2 subarrays... could be more, less
<mmealling>
now that dinner is over, going to dig into rspec at pipecloud's suggestion.
<mmealling>
heh... did you just do that or is that common enough to have a meme already?
<bnagy>
bahar: do you know how the map method works for Arrays?
<pipecloud>
You're just accepting a block being passed to a method, then you simply yield the block in an instance_eval or class_eval for your Configuration class that stores the configuration.
<bnagy>
if not, learn that first
<pipecloud>
bnagy: Enumerable, right? :D
<centrx>
bahar, For your specific example of multiplication and addition, you could use inject twice
<bnagy>
centrx: need map as well
<pipecloud>
centrx: It's dangerous to go alone, take this!
* pipecloud
hands centrx a map
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<centrx>
a.inject(0) { |sum, b| sum + b.inject(:*) }
<centrx>
BOOM
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<centrx>
Ruby Victorious Again!
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<bnagy>
oh, yeah I guess, I just did map {|a| a.inject(:+)}.inject
<bahar>
i tried this
<bahar>
inject(1){|value, (a, b)}
<bnagy>
inject is a terrible choice for beginners though
<pipecloud>
nailed it if you meant [[2,2], [7,1]] instead of [[4],[7]]
<pipecloud>
I guess I injected anyways...
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<bahar>
ha
<bahar>
how about this
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<bahar>
what if i wanted to manipulate in another way: specfically by counting the number of times a number appears in a subarray, take that, and use it: [[2, 2], [7, 1]] has two 2s in the first array and one 7 in the next array (ignore 1s)
<lagweezle>
I disagree with 'most people use it so it is better' ... Just look at most Pop music! It's popular, but horrible.
<apeiros>
pipecloud: so he does it wrong. and now?
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<pipecloud>
apeiros: How is that wrong?
<apeiros>
it's an abuse of the construct.
<apeiros>
as bnagy already said, each_with_object
<pipecloud>
It's neglect to say not to use reduce when you're reducing mapped set of values.
<pipecloud>
I'll side with people much smarter than your average rubyist. :)
<apeiros>
generally having to restate the accumulator of inject separately is indicative of using inject wrongly.
<apeiros>
it's an effect of "I really want this in one expression, no matter how much I have to bend it"
<pipecloud>
Maybe you should refactor jay fields' feelings on ruby.
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<bahar>
ok! sooo, the 2nd example i gave before, this works: map{|aa| aa[1]+1}.flatten.reduce(:*)
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<bnagy>
bahar: wat?
<apeiros>
n8
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<bahar>
[[2, 2], [7, 1]] = two 2s in first array, one 7 in next array (ignore 1s); change to [[2,] [1]], add 1 to each subarray... [[3], [2]] and multiply = 6
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<bnagy>
uh.. what what's that supposed to represent?
<bnagy>
you may as well just write magic = 6
<pipecloud>
bnagy: Clearly magic is 6 though, I don't know what you don't understand. :D
<bnagy>
cause it has nothing to do with the count of objects in the subarrays
<MJBrune>
anyone know some good tv series that are currently going?
<bahar>
haha, i'm trying to follow a formula and implement it. d(n) = (a+1) * (a2 + 1) * (a3 + 1)
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<bahar>
that will give you the count of divisors for the number n
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<bahar>
instead of doing that manual modulo 0 crap to iterate through numbers and identify factors and then count them
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: My little pony.
<bnagy>
prime divisors, or any?
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<bahar>
bnagy: for this particular formula to work it has to be prime divisors
<MJBrune>
pipecloud: ... yuck
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<bahar>
which i obtain by using the very handy ruby .prime_division method
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: That's pretty rood.
<bahar>
so: finding the nmber of divisors for 28 would go like this... prime_factors = 28.prime_division; prime_factors.map{|aa| aa[1]+1}.flatten.reduce(:*)
<bahar>
gives you 6, which is the right number of factors for 28
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<bnagy>
bahar: uh.. what are the 6 prime factors of 28 again?
<bahar>
it doesn't tell you the factors though.... just how many there are... that's a drawback, so only useful if you need the count
<bahar>
bnagy: the prime factors are used to find the # of factors
<bahar>
factors are 1, 2, 4, 7, 14, 28
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<bnagy>
anyway, just iterate Prime imho
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<bnagy>
this sound eulerish
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<bahar>
yeah. i had answered this particular question before, but then got to another one that was basically the same thing but more advanced, so i decided to go back and see if i could make my first answer faster.
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<bahar>
my first approach was brute force
<bahar>
inelegant...
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<lagweezle>
Is this Ruby Golf, or do you just have some overwhelming desire for a one-liner?
<bnagy>
also TIL prime.rb is HORRIBLE code omg
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<bahar>
bnagy: really?
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<bnagy>
yah, you should rewrite prime_division
<bahar>
i discovered prime_division earlier this morning, didn't know it existed either
<bnagy>
hard to see how you could make it less readable
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<bahar>
lol
<bahar>
it's thick
<bahar>
it's apparently very fast though?
<bnagy>
doesn't look like it
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<bnagy>
it just iterates primes
<bnagy>
I mean for numbers like 28, sure it's "fast"
<bahar>
maybe it could use some Ramanujan
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<bahar>
a challenge, then!
<bnagy>
write QFS!
<bnagy>
RAWR
<bnagy>
just kidding, don't do that
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<bahar>
=p
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<bnagy>
what are you working on, anyway?
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<bahar>
also: TIL, p and puts do different things
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<bnagy>
apart from the fundamental theorem of arithmetic
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<bahar>
i had just done 21, now going back to 12 to update it
<bahar>
"highly divisible triangular number"
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<bahar>
instead of iterating over everything, i have a formula to identify triangle numbers, and now also a formula to discover the # of divisors a number has
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<bahar>
so all i have to do is += the "n"th triangle number until i find one that has over 500 divisors
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<bnagy>
I'm gonna go ahead and guess you can also use pascal's triangle
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<bnagy>
but I have no evidence to support that
<bahar>
pascal's triangle?
<bahar>
i'll have to look that one up too
<bahar>
i just dislike iterating as a way of solving problems
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<bahar>
checking it out
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<bnagy>
basically, for any number theoretic problem ever, first check out pascal's triangle, then check the golden ratio
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<bnagy>
well.. s/number theory/simple mathematics/ I guess
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<jherman3>
Anyone here have experience with Rice?
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<pipecloud>
jherman3: I prefer basmati.
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<LLKCKfan>
Is there any natural ways to relieve pain without using herbs or weed? No drugs
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<dachi>
what's wrong
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<dachi>
it's not the second time i saw your message
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<dachi>
got to church
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<bahar>
bnagy... thanks. very cool. maybe i'll implement an answer with pascal's triangle next. the prog i just wrote runs in 0.7 second. the previous one i had ran in 3.6 second - good improvement!
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<LLKCKfan>
Hip Pain
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<pipecloud>
lewellyn: Rub your body in rubies.
<pipecloud>
LLKCKfan: ^
<LLKCKfan>
No rubies
<bnagy>
bahar: keep it up - euler is good for tactical programming in a new lang, but if you want to learn ruby in general you should also think about some more OO stuff
<bnagy>
although the later problems support a structured approach fine
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<bahar>
bnagy: any suggestions? i did testfirst.org's learn_ruby exercises (http://testfirst.org/learn_ruby) and am making my way through the koans
<bnagy>
I'm not a big fan of the new koans, just imho
<bnagy>
they're super basic. There's a reddit thing that just has programming problems, lots of them are interesting
<bahar>
well, they can definitely be a little frustrating at a time
<bahar>
what about Rubeque?
<bnagy>
never heard of it
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<pipecloud>
Ever try codewars.com ?
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<bahar>
nope
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<dachi>
i want to ask something. I'm like really very devoted to ruby, since I started I fell in love, but today I'm like I refuse to use anything on web except webrick, sinatra and rails. People today (I don't know about USA) are like going crazy over nodejs, sailjs express for a long time and I never looked at them seriousely, seems like it's taking the market and can you like tell that it's not gonna happen that server side javascript takes over the rai
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<pipecloud>
dachi: Webrick is a really crappy library for anything remotely under load.
<pipecloud>
dachi: I see a move to Go before I see node killing ruby.
<pipecloud>
Or rails
<pipecloud>
Plus, don't shut yourself in to just sinatra and rails. :)
<RubyTitmouse>
dachi: if you're worried about the "market" or whatever non-Ruby frameworks people are using I should warn you, Ruby already stopped being cool a few years ago
<pipecloud>
I mean, Jeff Atwood uses it over C#. It's not cool anymore.
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<dachi>
did it? mm but why
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<dachi>
_why
<RubyTitmouse>
IMO that is a good thing, and I suspect I'll still be using Ruby in 10 years. Ruby is still growing, but not in market share. Others are growing faster now.
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<RubyTitmouse>
Go already failed, how long and far the node.js fad goes remains to be seen
<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse: IDK if it failed. Ruby took a long time to catch on.
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<pipecloud>
Ruby and I are practically siblings.
<RubyTitmouse>
Ruby caught on right away. I waited years for the English Pickaxe to come out.
<pipecloud>
Ruby is in the third generation of programming languages, the previous generations have things that are still used and have reasonable job markets for.
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<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse: Not everyone can be an ultra early adopter like you, son.
<RubyTitmouse>
I wasn't
<dachi>
can't something actually happen so ruby gets where it must be
<pipecloud>
dachi: It's happening.
<dachi>
then why it's not cool
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<dachi>
how can c# be cooler
<dachi>
.net and i don't know what to call it
<dachi>
everytime I think about this subjet I remember my first days with ruby and that book poginant guide
<dachi>
tears come to my eyes
<dachi>
:|
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<pipecloud>
dachi: It's pretty cool.
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<pipecloud>
There's lots of cool things. Python just isn't one of them. :p
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<MJBrune>
is there a way to distribute a ruby program and not have the requirement of ruby itself already being installed on the OS?
<pipecloud>
Naw their libraries are cool and the people optimizing things for the kinds of libraries you'll find in python are cool. The language lacks lambdas worth shaking sticks at, but whatever.
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: Why wouldn't there be?
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: How do you know all these neat things but don't know how to build a universal shared ruby library?
<MJBrune>
pipecloud: what is a universal shared ruby library?
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: Like .so files.
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<MJBrune>
yeah when I google that, it turns up nothing. Please provide a link to what you are talking about.
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: clone ruby/ruby, get to the ./configure build step, pass --help to ./configure, read
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<MJBrune>
pipecloud: yeah, ignoring you now because you consistantly give bad help and aren't helpful or a decent person...
<MJBrune>
yeah 1) I don't think you know what I actually want to do. 2) Even if this does do what I want to do it doesn't have good enough documentation for me to support it.
<bnagy>
MJBrune: nothing os independent afaik
<bnagy>
basically you just need to wrap the runtime and your code into a binary for whatever os, there's one for windows that I can never remember the name of
<MJBrune>
bnagy: which is what I was thinking.
<MJBrune>
bnagy: jruby could certainly do such things but I don't think I'd want to do that.
<bnagy>
the full runtime is pretty fat though
<bnagy>
well jruby is even worse for that
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<bnagy>
unless they're guaranteed to have java
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<bnagy>
O-)
<bnagy>
o_0 even :D
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: I believe I do. I've done it before. I'm sorry that it's not good enough for you, it's open source. Pull requests accepted.
<rhys>
anyone interested in Rubinius?
<MJBrune>
I was hoping for a program/gem that I can use to do optimizations
<MJBrune>
I find it odd that Evan now works at Living Social
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<pipecloud>
I think that's the haven for rubyists everyone knows.
<bnagy>
ocra! That's the windows one I was thinking of :P
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<pipecloud>
There may just be a chance I know what I'm talking about. But unlikely. You're better off assuming I'm wrong and going in the other direction. :)
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<bnagy>
pipecloud: to be fair, he just said you give bad help, not that you don't know what you're talking about.
<bnagy>
which I'd agree with
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<pipecloud>
I don't see how it's bad help, it's the most direct way I know of to get the information on how to build a universal ruby binary as a shared object.
<pipecloud>
Sorry there wasn't a cute little blog somewhere for you, I guess?
<bnagy>
how is .so 'universal' ?
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<pipecloud>
bnagy: Did I say that a .so is universal?
<MJBrune>
that too. .so only works on 1 OS.
<MJBrune>
and not even the OS I want.
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<pipecloud>
Pretty sure you'd need the usual cross compilation tools to build for each OS.
<MJBrune>
unless your java.
<pipecloud>
Maybe you just don't know what universal means according to ruby. I don't know what you don't know, I just read source and ./configure --help, but that's unhelpful I guess.
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<MJBrune>
pipecloud: im on windows so I can't exactly ./configure.
<pipecloud>
I'll bow out, obviously I'm too gung ho for suggesting people clone free software to see how they can compile it.
<pipecloud>
MJBrune: Sure you can!
<pipecloud>
mingw.
<pipecloud>
I don't even know windows well and I know they have that.
<MJBrune>
sure you can do it but it's not as easy as just opening up a terminal, cloning and doing ./configure
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<pipecloud>
Good luck in your endeavor! I hope you find many blog posts to enable you no to look at source ever.
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<MJBrune>
it's setting up an entire environment specifically for this one task.
<pipecloud>
That's nice, hun.
<MJBrune>
ha, whatever. Sorry some people have lifes, jobs and other things to do.
<pipecloud>
I'm disinterested in assisting you in your laziness.
<pipecloud>
Good luck though, regardless.
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<MJBrune>
It's not laziness. It's lack of interest in such things.
<pipecloud>
k
<bnagy>
disinterested would be if you just didn't say anything
<MJBrune>
I am not going to devote my next 24 hours into learning how to do this one simple task when I can have a program do it for me.
<bnagy>
what _you_ are is trolly and arrogant
<pipecloud>
bnagy: Disinterested started after I hit enter on the line after 'k'.
<bnagy>
but you'll possibly grow out of it one day
<pipecloud>
bnagy: I'm not being arrogant.
<MJBrune>
you are.
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<pipecloud>
I'm saying that he's being lazy. He asked how to do something and I gave him all the information he needed for his answer.
<pipecloud>
My disinterest was in assisting him any further with his interest.
<centrx>
Is this the guy with the hip pain
<MJBrune>
who what now?
<centrx>
He refused every suggestion we gave him
<bnagy>
no, this one actually has a ruby problem
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<centrx>
lol
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<bnagy>
different person with >1 cap nick
<MJBrune>
ahh
<pipecloud>
centrx: I don't know if you think I have a hip pain. If I did, I'd certainly have better things to whine about other than lazy people. :(
<MJBrune>
pipecloud: surely doesn't seem like it cause here we are XD
<centrx>
Oh you have hip pain too?
<pipecloud>
centrx: No. :(
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<MJBrune>
nah he doesn't have hip pain so he doesn't have anything better than to whine about. The fact he's whining at all means hes a whiner.
<pipecloud>
bnagy: I don't think it's really a ruby problem though. Wanting to package something that supports architecture independence as well as being able to be compiled for each platform's respective shared object file seems more to me a build issue, but I can see it being sort of a ruby problem.
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<pipecloud>
Although orca does exist, it's neat enough.
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<pipecloud>
ocra
<itadder>
how can you pair program with
<itadder>
vim
<MJBrune>
vim <filename>
<bnagy>
I know rite??
<itadder>
yes
<itadder>
but if you pair program with someone
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<itadder>
both have to like the vim keyboard keys
<MJBrune>
oh
<bnagy>
itadder: for *nix?
<MJBrune>
#vim will tell you
<pipecloud>
itadder: Well, you can use tmux and shared sockets.
<itadder>
with sumblime text you can turn on and off vntage mode
<MJBrune>
or check out tmux
<itadder>
pipecloud: ahh
<itadder>
true
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<pipecloud>
itadder: Look into tweemux
<itadder>
pipecloud: I was still unable to make textmate back to default
<pipecloud>
Or DIY, but you need to give them ssh access.
<pipecloud>
itadder: I don't know what you mean.
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<MJBrune>
pipecloud: textmate is a gtk text editor afaik
<itadder>
I tried to rm -rf the .plist
<itadder>
it a mac text editor
<itadder>
oh tweemux ahh
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<MJBrune>
oh right.
<pipecloud>
Oh I meant to delete the terminal preferences. I don't know about that editor. I use vim myself.
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<itadder>
oh that remote
<itadder>
pair programing
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<itadder>
hmm that cool idea
<itadder>
I was thinking of pair programing on the same computer like at an office
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<pipecloud>
oh, then just two keyboards!
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<pipecloud>
itadder: My preferred local pairing setup is either one humonogous display or two. Two keyboards, two mice.
<pipecloud>
All hooked into the same device, laptops off.
<itadder>
oh
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<itadder>
any good site for remote ruby pair programing for when I will start on my project
<itadder>
I saw vimsenisble If you're pair programming and you can't agree on whose vimrc to use, this can be your neutral territory.
<pontiki>
eh, if you don't want to build any rails stuff, just stop when you get there
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<pontiki>
lots of folks also prefre rvm to rbenv, and then there's folks like me who don't use either
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<itadder>
oh
<itadder>
I hate to choose
<itadder>
so much anexity
<itadder>
a bad workflow setup dev machines will just produce bad code
<bnagy>
hahah
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<bnagy>
itadder: look, good coders will produce good code unless you take great pains to force them not to do so
<itadder>
oh
<bnagy>
bad coders that cargo cult development 'systems' won't magically produce good code
<itadder>
I mean a adhd person like me has to be orgnaized
<itadder>
or else I will just give up
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<itadder>
oh
<itadder>
all I want is simple oragniazed textmate workflow
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<bnagy>
whatever floats your boat, but that's not going to be the razor's edge between you writing good code and bad code
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<bnagy>
it's "simple" - just spend thousands of hours coding and reading code by other people
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<itadder_>
bnagy: but you have a point
<bnagy>
the rest is just +- a few percentile points in output volume / quality
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<itadder_>
so why this cult wars bettween emacs, vim, or sublime text
<itadder_>
or on the mac textmate vrs sublime text
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<pontiki>
itadder_: if you don't want to decide, just go with the first one you find
<itadder_>
yes but how can one code if it all disoragniazed
<itadder_>
yea which is textmate
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<pontiki>
also, that doesn't describe a work flow. that is just an environment to work in
<pontiki>
no, see, textmate is your editor, your IDE, etc
<pontiki>
what that post talks about is what you need to develop ruby programs at all, regardless of your editor
<itadder_>
yea but were you save your source you bulids and test
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<pontiki>
right, that post doesn't say anything about that
<itadder_>
ahh
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<itadder_>
so I guess that were my trouble would be
<itadder_>
and not in which ide or editor to use
<pontiki>
i imagine so
<pontiki>
right
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<itadder_>
and i do not need to have all this extra plugins in vim or textmate or sublime
<itadder_>
just code
<pontiki>
how log have you been programming?
<lagweezle>
itadder_: a bad workflow will cause a good coder to produce good code SLOWER but it won't make their code worse.
<itadder_>
one month and a half
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<pontiki>
you are going to meetups, though?
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<itadder_>
yea
<pontiki>
itadder_: i've been programming for close to 40 years, so it's hard for me to put myself back in your shoes, you know? :/
<itadder_>
II suffer from anexity and that stops me from coding
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<itadder_>
but I would love to webenable OMNIFOCUS
<itadder_>
and I love automating
<lagweezle>
I know your pain on focus, itadder_.
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<itadder_>
I can't use it at work I have to turn mymac on
<itadder_>
or carry my iphone or ipad
<lagweezle>
It will be hard, but put down the tool pr0n. git + editor you are comfortable with, then buckle down and start writing code.
<bnagy>
imho your toolchain should accrete organically
<itadder_>
yea
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<pontiki>
i am stuck on "webenable OMNIFOCUS"
<itadder_>
bnagy: wow that so true
<bnagy>
this is one of the reasons I dislike IDEs, especially for beginners
<pontiki>
me, i like REPLs
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<itadder_>
if it were me I would use textmate just for syntaxs colours
<itadder_>
and that all
<pontiki>
write a line of code, immediately see how it works
<itadder_>
and dropbox for storage
<pontiki>
what stops you from doing that, itadder_ /
<pontiki>
?
<itadder_>
I am scared
<pontiki>
what do you think might happen?
<itadder_>
since it a project I think of project mangement
<itadder_>
pontiki: that I will never get it done or that it to complex
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<pontiki>
if that were true, what would happen?
<itadder_>
but it such a usefull idea
<itadder_>
it will help me stay oraganized on time at work if I pull it off
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<pontiki>
and if you don't, if it is too complex, or you don't finish it, what will happen to you?
<itadder_>
I would of just started something half done like my 100 other projects
<itadder_>
I will be less productive
<pontiki>
than you are now?
<itadder_>
becusse I can;t use omnifocus on the pc
<itadder_>
well I will about the same productive
<itadder_>
but I could be more productive
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<pontiki>
so, if you don't finish it, no net gain or loss in productivity
<pontiki>
will you have learned something useful along the way?
<itadder_>
yes true
<itadder_>
that another net gain
<itadder_>
I would learn programing
<itadder_>
and have something in my protofilo
<pontiki>
even if you don't finish it, or it doesn't work, do you think you'll have gained useful skill?
<lagweezle>
This is why I find I really like test driven development. I start writing the basic description of the test. I fill in a few tests and they go from yellow to red. Then I write code to make those tests go from red to green. Repeat the yellow, red, green cycle until the thing 'works'.
<itadder_>
somewhat
<itadder_>
I would gained basic ruby
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<pontiki>
what will you have lost in that same time if what you want doesn't work or you can't finish it?
<Senjai>
itadder_: I have tons of unfinished projects laying about
<pontiki>
is it ok that i'm asking these questions?
<Senjai>
you learn from all of them :p
<itadder_>
yes
<pontiki>
ok
<Zeroedge>
i'd like to ask a question when you guys are done helping him
<itadder_>
no lost time
<itadder_>
I rather spend time learning something
<pontiki>
ok
<itadder_>
then sitting in fron of a tv after work
<bnagy>
Zeroedge: just jump in
<itadder_>
watching bigbang theory
<pontiki>
so, the fear that stops you now, itadder_
<bnagy>
it's all async
<itadder_>
My two goals is to break my fears
<pontiki>
can you live with the fear and start anyway?
<itadder_>
I guess
<itadder_>
yes my only fear is I will never finish it
<pontiki>
just take tiny steps at first
<itadder_>
or that it will work
<Senjai>
Zeroedge: just ask L(
<itadder_>
yea
<pontiki>
i'm not exactly sure what OMNIFOCUS is, or what it means to web-enable it...
<Zeroedge>
Alright, I've been writing ruby alongside my normal duties at work, I tend to write a lot of 1 off scripts, as a result I can't get into the habit of doing TDD. Any good way to get into it with one off scripts? (usually 40 lines or less)
<itadder_>
yea all I need now is ruby in terminal, and textmate thanks pontiki
<Senjai>
Zeroedge: TDD? Or writing tests.
<pontiki>
but i think learning to write some ruby scripts would be an awefully good start?
<pontiki>
TDD/BDD is an approach to organized design and development
<Zeroedge>
bousquet: Thanks
<Senjai>
Zeroedge: Simple, just do it. I became decent at testing because making contributions to open source repositories require tests.
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<itadder_>
and if I get good at it I can venture my consulting work
<itadder_>
to not just help desk support
<bousquet>
Zeroedge: np. Thats a great example of how to build tests around a one off ruby shell script
<pontiki>
itadder_: not to derail you, but is omnifocus much different than evernote?
<itadder_>
yes
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<pontiki>
it just looks like an organized note taker
<itadder_>
nope
<Zeroedge>
Senjai: Alright, Is it just one of those "Wax on Wax off" mentalities? Just something you make a part of the scripting so that it becomes good practice?
<itadder_>
well it is
<itadder_>
but it also a task managemnet with start dates due dates and contexts and projects
<itadder_>
and next actions
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<Senjai>
Zeroedge: Really, unless you choose to make a decision that your code be tested, you will never do it
<pontiki>
evernote does all that
<Senjai>
Zeroedge: Finding people to code review your tests also help. But they ahve to be written
<pontiki>
i mean, it's a GTD thing
<itadder_>
yes
<Zeroedge>
Senjai: Alright, I'll ask one of the developers to code review. Thanks
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<pontiki>
pair programming with TDD is awesome
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<pontiki>
pick a microfeature. one writes the tests, then the other writes the code, bouncing back and forth. next microfeature, switch roles.
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<Senjai>
pontiki: That's a cool idea
<Senjai>
We use gerrit and stuff for code review at work, but no actual pair programming
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<Senjai>
Zeroedge: Oh, also never test private methods, new people often do
<itadder_>
i need that
<pontiki>
it seems better than the typical shoulder-surfing pair programming i've encountered
<itadder_>
so reaad code on github
<pontiki>
need what, itadder_ ?
<itadder_>
pair programing
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<Zeroedge>
Senjai: I have read some of Sandi Metz's Practical Object Oriented book and she mentioned that too, I should probably finish that book heh
<pontiki>
i should buckle down and read her book, too. i've only skimmed it and cherry picked a few things out so far
<pontiki>
she write so much better than i do :(
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<Red_Onyx>
is her book about Ruby?
<Senjai>
Zeroedge: You mean Design Patterns in ruby?
<itadder_>
wow
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<pontiki>
sandi's book is about ruby, but the concepts go towards a lot of different things
<Senjai>
Zeroedge: Just remember, she's an academic. These people rarely ship code. The design patterns are correct, but the amount of time to impliment them in every scenario where they could be far outweigh their benefits
<pontiki>
DPiR is also a fabulous book
<pontiki>
wat??
<pontiki>
that's not so
<itadder_>
oh
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<Zeroedge>
Senjai: Oh? Can you point me to someone from the other spectrum? I'd like to get a bit rounded
<pontiki>
granted, focusing solely on patterns can make you overwrite and overdesign things
<pontiki>
but that's not part of either book
<Senjai>
pontiki: I'm certain she kept mentioning that the patterns should be implimented when applicable to safe money etc and so forth?
<pontiki>
also, there is much much deeper learning here than explicit patterns
<Senjai>
Zeroedge: No, books are about the right way to do things. And that is the right way to do things. But overengineering can be extremely costly. Just keep that in mind.
<Senjai>
pontiki: I'm not disagreeing with you
<pontiki>
Senjai: you seem to be throwing out reasons not to read the book
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<pontiki>
and that confuses me
<Senjai>
pontiki: I suggest poodr as a book to read.
<Senjai>
I do
<Zeroedge>
pontiki: I think he's just meaning to not rule it as law
<Senjai>
^
<itadder_>
i need a ruby webdav connection code example
<Zeroedge>
But thanks, I enjoy reading when I have the time, I'm a fan of different viewpoints so I can form my own opinion
<itadder_>
that a start right pontiki
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<pontiki>
itadder_: i suggest you first learn how to make a web connection from ruby, at all
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<pontiki>
itadder_: learning to program is learning how to solve problems in general
<itadder_>
yea
<pontiki>
and mainly learn how to break down those problems into smaller and smaller chunks that become easily solvable
<Senjai>
Zeroedge: I would just remember that because someone writes a book on a subject doesn't mean they're the law of that domain. Specifically poodr suggestions are sound, but her methodologies are unemployable, they simply cost too much money.
<pontiki>
and how to ensure they work as you expect them to
<lagweezle>
Senjai: Er, why not test private methods?
<Senjai>
lagweezle: Testing is about the public interface, testing the private interface couples your tests too closely to the subjects internal behaior
<Senjai>
behavior*
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<pontiki>
actuall, itadder_ , socket programming is considered advanced even in ruby
<itadder_>
oh
<Senjai>
lagweezle: You should only test what the subject is expected to return given certain inputs. Other objects cannot access the private api, so testing there is redundant and coupling.
<lagweezle>
... and here I was thinking tests were to make certain something was working properly ...
<itadder_>
I have no idea were to start
<Senjai>
lagweezle: Public methods should use private methods, so testing the public methods inherently tests the private ones
<lagweezle>
Ahhh. Now I understand what you mean.
<Senjai>
lagweezle: You don't want to care how the car drives, just that when you tell it to, it acts how you expect it too.
<Senjai>
lagweezle: That's the approach you should take
<Zeroedge>
lagweezle: the example to your question is as such: You order some food from the drive thru window, you don't test to see if your burger is flipped and cooked, you just enjoy the final product, without ever talking to the back workers.
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<Senjai>
Another hint that your testing improperly is when your stubbing the subject under test
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<Zeroedge>
itadder_: I tend to have that problem myself, I usually solve problems I have at work.
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<pontiki>
hum... where are beginning ruby kata? i can't seem to find what i'm looking for....
<Zeroedge>
itadder_: I tend to make users on a website frequently, so I automated it so I enter the name and last name, and then it does everything on the back end such as sending an e-mail to them with their generated user credentials. It's easiest when you have a problem.
<lagweezle>
Senjai and Zeroedge, are you thinking of functional tests, or any tests (unit tests, etc.)?
<Senjai>
pontiki: The koans?
<Senjai>
lagweezle: Any tests.
<Senjai>
lagweezle: describe SomeClass should never stub anything on SomeClass
<itadder_>
my problem is connecting to omnfocus server sync
<pontiki>
oh, probably, Senjai
<lagweezle>
I'm ignoring the stub bit as that is mostly 'obvious'. I'm just after the 'never test anything not-public'.
<Senjai>
lagweezle: For integration specs you can assert that a message is delivered.
<Senjai>
lagweezle: Heh, you'd be suprised :P
<Zeroedge>
lagweezle: what is the problem? and what is the result you expect?
<Zeroedge>
I meant that last message to itadder_ not lagweezle
<pontiki>
itadder_: work through those
<Senjai>
lagweezle: No need to test anything not public, because oher objects don't communicate with private API's, ideally: You want to be able to completely change how an object works as long as it adheres to the public API easily, without tests breaking
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<lagweezle>
With the order food get food example, not testing anything aside from the public interface ... that leaves a LOT of code that doesn't have a good indicator as to where the bug is that caused your hamburger to be two buns around a potato.
<itadder_>
oh
<Senjai>
lagweezle: If you test private or internal behavior, these tests will always fail, which are just useless failures
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<pontiki>
itadder_: that's the eventual problem to solve, yes, but before then, there is much to learn
<itadder_>
the problem connecting to omnigroup sync webdav server
<Senjai>
lagweezle: Then your design is flawed, It might mean you need more objects with seperate responsibilities
<Senjai>
lagweezle: Or you're not adhering to SRP
<itadder_>
result is to connect success with my omnfiocus id and password
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<itadder_>
pontiki: yea
<itadder_>
thanks pontiki
<Zeroedge>
itadder_: but when you connect, what do you want to do after that?
<Senjai>
lagweezle: Also, Your test should assert after ordering a burger, that you get a burger the way you expect. Not that you test how the burger is made
<Senjai>
lagweezle: What matters is that an error is caught, not pinpointed, thats something easily done with a pry or irb session
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<itadder_>
rad my database with my omnifocus data
<Zeroedge>
itadder_: there might be an api that you can consume from them
<bnagy>
Senjai: I disagree pretty strongly with all that
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<bnagy>
but I'm a security person, so we have different perspectives
<Zeroedge>
itadder_: no problem, look through the examples they have, it's usually pretty simple
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<lagweezle>
HAH! Just realized how appropriate 'Ruby Koans' are, being that Ruby was birthed by a Japanese person (in Japan?). ^^;
<bnagy>
testing private APIs doesn't cost very much, and bugs are bugs
<bnagy>
you might not be able to reach the bug from the public api today, with the tests you have
<itadder_>
"This is probably a little technical, but for the curious: OmniFocus uses compressed XML transaction files to store its data, with a SQL cache for efficient access. (Each time you update the application, we rebuild the SQL cache to ensure that it's consistent with the latest schema.) "
<bnagy>
but doesn't mean it's not there and shouldn't be fixed
<itadder_>
thanks Zeroedge
<bnagy>
this is how a lot of deep bugs have persisted for years
<Zeroedge>
itadder_: no problem
<lagweezle>
Well, I've moved from disagreeing with Senjai and Zeroedge on this, to now being on the fence between the two. I think I'm going to stay somewhat centered, here, though, given that I work in QA... >.<
<itadder_>
that my second reading the compressed xml transcation files
<itadder_>
with a sql cache
<lagweezle>
An' yeah, what bnagy is saying.
<itadder_>
second problem
<Zeroedge>
lagweezle: I tend to write very small private methods that do one job well
<lagweezle>
Zeroedge: Aye. I've moved very strongly in that direction.
<Zeroedge>
lagweezle: not that they're infallible, but I write with a lot of methods
<bnagy>
that's sound for public or private
<bnagy>
and not an argument either way against testing
<lagweezle>
I'm also taking a new look at my code, and seeing how I should break it down into more classes, to more properly adhere to the single responsibility principle.
<Zeroedge>
bnagy: I write a lot of little private methods, and I like to keep my public interface small
<RubyTitmouse>
I use protected, but I avoid private
<bnagy>
the other horror scenario is a private method that returns 'correct' results but with an unwanted side effect
<Zeroedge>
use explicit returns
<bnagy>
hard to test that from the public api
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<bnagy>
you're confusing software design with the argument at hand
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<Zeroedge>
sorry, you're right
<RubyTitmouse>
even private methods should be named like ! if they have dangerous side effects
<bnagy>
if sound design worked we wouldn't have to test anything
<Senjai>
bnagy: I feel that's a pretty strong context.
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<Senjai>
bnagy: Security, and payment processing, are very different things in contrast to the day to day.
<Senjai>
bnagy: Well I guess not in your day to day ;)
<lagweezle>
hehe
<bnagy>
ok well if you don't think security is part of testing then.. do whatever
<lagweezle>
Security and money handling ... paranoia saves your ass. :3
<Senjai>
bnagy: It is, but to what end?
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<Senjai>
bnagy: Can you give me an example of one of those unwanted side effects?
<bnagy>
well I just think that from a security perspective, you test everything from the easiest place to test
<Senjai>
bnagy: Right, but that's a maintenance nightmare. You can't change anything without breaking your tests.
<bnagy>
rather than relying on the cover that today's public API gives you from your deeper bugs
<Senjai>
Even those things that don't matter to the external system at large
<bnagy>
well you can't change your public api without changing your tests either
<bnagy>
testing is inherently a pain in the ass
<Senjai>
bnagy: bnagy no, but your public api should be a lot more abstract than your private api.
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<Senjai>
bnagy: The point is, it should change less
<bnagy>
the more abstract the public api, in your approach, the less likely deep bugs are to ever be found
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<Senjai>
XClass always returns a hash with three keys containing an YClass, a ZClass, and a string
<bnagy>
it's like having a private method that just evals a string, while the public API checks to make sure it doesn't match /rm/
<lagweezle>
If you are careful to write less brittle tests, you can have them cover a heck of a lot of the non-public portions.
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<Senjai>
XClass.somemethod
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<Senjai>
you test that what you get back is formatted and is how you expect it to be
<Senjai>
bnagy: Bugs are often missed because edge cases either aren't known or are ignored
<Senjai>
Which is common, you can't always catch EVERYTHING.
<itadder_>
good night
<bnagy>
I mean frankly, I'd rather move all the library code out into modules anyway, private methods squick me out
<itadder_>
thanks pontiki
<bnagy>
then you can test them and everyone is happy
<itadder_>
thanks Zeroedge
<Zeroedge>
itadder_: no problem :)
<lagweezle>
itadder_: g'night, and good luck! Buckle down and dig in. :)
<itadder_>
so my second problem is
<itadder_>
the xml files
<Senjai>
bnagy: If your private method is causing an unwanted side effect, that should either effect the output of the public api, or send messages to another object in your system which should also have a tested public api to prevent this
<lagweezle>
Let us know if you need more help, and what you get done. :)
<itadder_>
that my second reading the compressed xml transcation files
<lagweezle>
I don' mean 'completed done' but more progress. :)
<itadder_>
I will let u know
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<Zeroedge>
itadder_: that's easy, let me find you the xml parser
<bnagy>
Senjai: there is no inherent reason that should be so
<Senjai>
bnagy: Define unwanted side effect for me
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<Senjai>
Give me a scenario that doesn't effect one of those things
<bnagy>
they are already small words
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<Zeroedge>
itadder_:http://nokogiri.org/
<lagweezle>
affect?
<Senjai>
lagweezle: Affect, yes
<bnagy>
if your argument has a dimension other than "it's more work, and it'll probably be fine" then now's the time to highlight it
<lagweezle>
Phew. I was trying to figure out what context I missed.
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<Senjai>
bnagy: Ignoring edge cases are bad. I'm not suggesting that they do. It's more work is an important thought. If you can never change anything without your tests breaking, even if you adhere to the API and specifications for the object, the tests are brittle and a source of technical debt
<Senjai>
Private methods are used by public methods, public methods are tested
<Senjai>
There is never a scenario where you should need to test a private method in isolation, because it is never called in isolation.
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<bnagy>
*shrug* ok
<bnagy>
this is why I will be employed forever
<Senjai>
bnagy: We'll agree to disagree on this one I think.
<Senjai>
I feel like I might lack the context and situations you find yourself in.
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<Senjai>
But that being said, given the situations I've found myself in, there have always been better ways to ensure things go well. If it's too hard to cover edge cases with testing the public API, then it probably needs to be refactored
* lagweezle
sighs at his OS X systems being stupid about authentication and authorization for network shares.
<Senjai>
Which is my opinion
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<Senjai>
Experiences shape opinions, and I certainly don't do security things for my paycheck :P
<Senjai>
Except payment processing.
<Senjai>
I do a lot of that
<bnagy>
in ruby? o_0
<Senjai>
bnagy: Not just in ruby.
<bnagy>
\o/
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<lagweezle>
Senjai, bnagy, Zeroedge, thank you. Good food for mulling, and a good prompting to do some more refactoring / learning with my code. :)
<Zeroedge>
lagweezle: have a good night, enjoyed chatting with you :)
<lagweezle>
Thankee!
<lagweezle>
You too, btw.
<lagweezle>
Now for those ZzZzs I needto catch up on. ;)
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<Senjai>
lagweezle: night
<Zeroedge>
Senjai: which do you prefer for testing? Minitest or Rspec?
<bnagy>
yeah, I should probably be drinking beer and watching the sunset, tbf
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<Senjai>
Zeroedge: I use both, it's a preference things
<Senjai>
thing*
<Senjai>
bnagy: Were you at?
<Senjai>
Where*
<Senjai>
god I cannot type tonight
<bnagy>
pohnpei, atm
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<Senjai>
bnagy: Wow
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<Senjai>
Working remotely?
<Senjai>
bnagy: Never heard of that place before
<bnagy>
yeah
<bnagy>
it's kinda tiny, so I'm not really surprised :)
<Zeroedge>
looked it up because I thought "Italy?" and then saw it wasn't Pompei haha
<Senjai>
bnagy: Enjoy :)
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<dseitz>
nothing to worry about, probably just did something stupid
<pontiki>
well, maybe -- it's my own VPS
<pontiki>
i am sure
<dseitz>
hehe
<dseitz>
(not you, a script/app)
<pontiki>
well, ok, but as it's my server, i should know what things do, right? hahaha, as if
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<dseitz>
lol suure :)
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<ninjapig>
hello, i'm trying to parse a long string and trying to extract one word at a time and manipulate it, is there anyway to do this without using split() ? I am trying to do it without using the extra o(n) space. I am trying to see if there is a way to do it without writing a function to consider the string character by character
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<ninjapig>
would string.scan().each() do this without creating a separate array? I would think not because scan() creates a new array
<ninjapig>
any help would be great
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<dseitz>
check out stringIO
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<ninjapig>
any other solutions?
<dseitz>
Actually; now that I think about it, String#each_line might be worth using; you'd have build a new string
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<dseitz>
That is, you should not modify the string you're enumerating
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<ninjapig>
i'm trying not to use the extra space
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<ninjapig>
suppose in string " the fox jumped over the cat", i want to iterate through it while storing each word in a temp variable
<ninjapig>
and then displaying it, then reuse the same variable again
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<ninjapig>
for efficiency
<ninjapig>
or is that not possible?
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<ninjapig>
is using the \G anchor in regex a solution?
<ninjapig>
i can't seem to see how the \G works
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<dseitz>
I'd pass #scan a block, to avoid an array being returned
<dseitz>
then it just becomes a loop internally
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<dseitz>
s.scan(/\w+/) { |w| puts w } # would scan once, pass the result back, scan again, pass the result back, continue - so resource use would be good and it would still be a pretty good in terms of complexity -- 'w' would already be your temporary variable
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<ninjapig>
is there anyway to force ruby's regex engine to match in reverse?
<ninjapig>
instead of creating an array and then reversing it
<jhass>
ninjapig: maybe, can you provide a usage example?
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<ninjapig>
there is a string "quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog", i'm trying to make it so the string.scan(regexp) {|match|} is passed the words in reverse order
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<ninjapig>
regexp scans a string left to right, i'm trying to do right to left, i think this is possible in C#
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<jhass>
so, no I don't think that's possible, and unless you have a really big string I doubt it's any faster than creating an array and reversing it
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<LLKCKfan>
Is there any natural ways to relieve pain without using herbs or weed? No drugs
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<dseitz>
Is it that time, LLKCKfan
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<bleak>
you could go to sleep
<bleak>
or masturbate
<bleak>
or eat something really spicy
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<octaplus>
llkckdan: acupuncture, sex, hot bath + relaxing music + massage
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<pontiki>
i always come to the freenode tech channels to get medical advice. how about you?
<jhass>
LLKCKfan: kinda a if you believe in it thing, but since you seem focused on "natural" might be something for you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupressure
<LLKCKfan>
octaplus Does not work, no, no bathtub, tried
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<dseitz>
Ice cold shower
<pontiki>
>> "The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog".reverse.scan(/\w+/) {|word| puts word.reverse }
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<octaplus>
where is the pain. and accupunture does work sometimes in a placebo effect sort of way which is usually what you get if you want to go the "natural" way
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<dseitz>
I do a form of acupuncture that is really neato; they drill holes to my spine, put needles into the nerves and burn them off :)
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<pontiki>
^ this is why you don't seek medical advice on irc
<dseitz>
lol :P
<dseitz>
it's call radiofrequency injections
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<bleak>
i feel like asking for non-chemical analgesic methods is kind of the opposite of medical advice
<pontiki>
go to a orthopod, they'll likely first recommend ice
<dseitz>
pontiki: lol yes, I would not advise until you have seen multiple doctors, had a few MRIs and were advised to seek neurosurgery
<dseitz>
pretty high-tech procedure as brutal as it sounds
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<pontiki>
oh, it sounds like it would be, it's just that "a form of acupuncture" bit :>
<dseitz>
lol
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<dseitz>
Luckily the mind forgets how painful it is when you sign up again to do it every 6 months
<pontiki>
hmm
<pontiki>
has it helped?
<dseitz>
Yes. When the nerves go back they are aggravated by the disk, serve no function but to report pain
<dseitz>
s/go/grow/
<pontiki>
right
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<shevy>
"<dseitz> [...] they drill holes to my spine, put needles into the nerves and burn them off"
<shevy>
^^^ man, we have a Guantanamo survivor
<dseitz>
lol
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<shevy>
when you write burn them off, you mean the technique where the needle holds something on the opposite end that is burned, and the heat is transmitted through the needle into the body?
<dseitz>
Again, high-tech, causes the ions in the tissue to move at a pace that they burn up
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<bleak>
oh shit
<bleak>
microwaves?!
<dseitz>
well that that the heat they generate burns the nerve
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<shevy>
all that pain
<shevy>
welcome to ruby bootcamp
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<shevy>
hmm
<shevy>
awk is kinda cool
<shevy>
awk -F: '{ print $1 }' /etc/passwd
<shevy>
would ruby have something similar? that one obtains the first entry when split would be applied onto ':' character, I think. in other words, obtains all users from that file
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<MrPopinjay>
Hello all. I was wondering- how do I handle toggleable output to the terminal to my application? I was thinking about creating a global variable that is set by a CLI runtime flag, and then creating a kernel method that will only print the string passed to it if this global variable is true. Is there a better method?
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<jhass>
there has to be, globals are always a bad idea :P
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
MrPopinjay: what about a singleton?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
which is a global variable by the way, but people keeps saying global are bad
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
xD
<jhass>
it depends a bit on how you structured your application, but try to maintain some sort of configuration object
<jhass>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: the difference is that can prevent it from being changed a second time and control simultaneous access more easily
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
jhass: well, that's true ^^
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I have few questions about ruby instead (woke up dreaming about programming languages xD)
<jhass>
\o/
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
the most stupid one: why there isn't a library that handle threads in "native" C considering Ruby has the possibility to interact with C code? I mean something like a NativeThread class (different from thread) which should have the advantage of native threads without GIL
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
are there any limitation I do not understand (or very complex implications of what I said)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
aside from obvious threading-implications
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I forgot the second question, argh
<jhass>
the main reason for the GVL (global vm lock, since 1.9 it's called that if you want to be precise) is that MRI (the c code) itself isn't thread safe
<jhass>
as I understood it
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
yea yea I know it
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I want to know why there isn't a way to instanciate a native thread in any case
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
so that the programmer may eventually handle it manually
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<jhass>
it'd still be ruby code, right?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
yes
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<kiba>
hi, how many HTTP connection can I make but while still being nice?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
no idea
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
20?
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<wald0>
im searching for a good lib to use for cli apps with common needs, mixlib looks good (and supports version, config, shell commands, and cli opts)
<jhass>
kiba: highly depends on who you're connecting to
<kiba>
rubygems.org
<wald0>
it is a good choice? it is a good quality lib?
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: I do not understand, maybe thor? I may be completely wrong
<shevy>
wald0 if not, you could always takeover and improve it ;)
<jhass>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: so you still need the rubyvm to execute your NativeThreads code, no since the rubyvm isn't threadsafe, wouldn't it crash the moment two of your NativeThreads are in Ruby land the same time?
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<wald0>
shevy: well, i would start by using a good one from the first moment
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
jhass: yes but you can use a semaphore to avoid everything exploding, that was my main point
<wald0>
maybe im too much perfectionist (which is a non-productive problem) also
<jhass>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: aka the GVL?
<wald0>
just wondering around which ones are hte best option
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
jhass: not exactly, is controlled by you, if you don't need the two things to interact you can even put there no semaphore
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
jhass: (please consider this are just thoughts, I'm not writing anything thread-related right now)
<jhass>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: the issue isn't your ruby code interacting, but the rubyvm being incapable of executing ruby code in parallel
<kiba>
so, what's the best ruby for threading?
<xargoon>
jruby
<jhass>
^
<jhass>
rubinius support isn't too bad too from what I've heard
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
jhass: oh wait, you mean, for example, if I try to call a symbol, ruby may explode because access to symbol table is not thread-safe ?
<kiba>
I don't think mine will appreciately increase in performance
<kiba>
it's probably limited by network calls, after all
<jhass>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: exactly
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
jhass: ok now I understand xD
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
mhh I made a test
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
with JRuby
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
basically I was using ruby ffi to interact with a very stupid c library
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
same code in mri and in jruby
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
jruby had something like around 20% "slowness" O.o
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
maybe mri outperforms jruby on small codebase and on bigger, jruby improves?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
but I've benchmarked over like 1 000 000 calls O.o (or 10 millions I do not remember)
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<xargoon>
a threaded jruby application should outperform a mri app as long as you stick to java or plain ruby libraries
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
xargoon: ah ok, probably interacting with C involves doubling the overhead (ruby tries to interact with C, pass control to java, java tries to interact with C)
<xargoon>
with jruby you could use jni through a java wrapper instead
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
what if I write the java implementation of the c extension (will still need to interact in some way with C code, it was a dll about game, so I need to load functions from there)
<xargoon>
if you need to call C code
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
xargoon: yes I used jni long time ago
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
the c library was very stupid, more or less it was a simple C-implemented stack that interacts with game (basically a way to call function in an assembly-like fashion)
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<xargoon>
would be nice if MRI 3.0 would support native threads
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
xargoon: in theory, I've read that ruby 2.2 is supposed to remove gvl
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
if that's true it will remove any competitor (jruby/rubinius) so I don't trust this statement
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<xargoon>
at least rubinius, jruby have some other unique qualities
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<wald0>
im checking thor and mixlib-cli, but i have not found yet the way to set the name of the arguments for inside my ruby code
<wald0>
for example, for the end user have "--verbose" (which is set automatically to [:verbose]), but to use this variable as "is_verbose" inside my ruby code (different name)
<wald0>
i like to name all my boolean vars as prefixed is_*
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: you should use verbose? instead of is_verbose
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
it's a ruby standard
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
anyway, watch this
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<shevy>
wald0 simply call one unique setter
<wald0>
well, as i said i like to use very good names inside my code, the readability improves a really lot, for example if a directory is meant to contain a directory address is suffixed *_d, or different "behaviours" are "is_mode_FOO"
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<wald0>
or for states, "has_", or "has_flag"
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<wald0>
shevy: what do you mean ?
<wald0>
shevy: for the end user is not good to have --is-verbose, its not a stadard
<wald0>
but for my code is better to use :is_verbose than :verbose
<shevy>
wald0 " but to use this variable as "is_verbose" inside my ruby code (different name)" <-- use one setter and alias to it. the setter sets the @ivar in question
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: what about :verbose?
<shevy>
and the --commandline-flags can only invoke these methods, and never set an @ivar directly
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
anyway wald0 what I linked should do the job for you, I use it exactly for that reason, quite helpful, it converts from somethingLikeThis to something_like_this if it's an hash
<wald0>
mmmh, i dont quite understand, i need to set my own classes as child of the Hashie::Trash class, Fire-Dragon-DoL ?
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<wald0>
btw, is not there something called "alias" that should do a similar thing ?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: you can create a class and call it ConvertCommandLineArguments < Trash
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
you pass the hash of options obtained from thor/whatever you get the "renamed" version of params
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: yes alias do something similar but doesn't handle the type conversion, which you will need considering all input from console is string
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<wald0>
mmmh, unfortunately this package (hashies) is not available in debian wheezy
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
mh?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
it's a ruby gem
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
and I'm on debian wheezy
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<wald0>
yeah well, i like to use packages instead of install manually gems :)
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<wald0>
it is on jessie/testing, maybe i can rebuild the package "ported" for wheezy
<shevy>
wald0 that is a problem. you are like in a prison then
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<shevy>
you can only use what others who maintain the distribution made available to you and nothing else
<wald0>
shevy: in my specific case i need stability and integration, im trying to do "distributable" (in debian package form, for wheezy) apps
<shevy>
gem install hashies
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<shevy>
btw wald0 were you the guy who uses enlightenment? or was it someone else... my IRC memory is so awful, I dont use timestamps and forget anything that is like + ~3 days ago
<wald0>
so the endusers will only need to install my package and my app will work, without requiring he to install manually dependencies (dependencies are managed by the packager itslf, installing the needed ones)
<wald0>
shevy: yeah me :)
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<shevy>
aha that was the wrong gem command
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<shevy>
gem install hashie
<shevy>
what a weird name for a project by the way
<shevy>
I am more reminded of smoking weed than anything else :P
<wald0>
Setting up ruby-hashie (2.0.3-1) ...
<wald0>
done :)
<shevy>
I dont know that one
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<wald0>
just backported the ruby-hashie package from jessie/testing to wheezy
<shevy>
k, was wondering
<shevy>
gem install ruby-hashie
<shevy>
ERROR: Could not find a valid gem 'ruby-hashie' (>= 0) in any repository
<wald0>
ruby-* is the new standard prefix for ruby gem packages in debian
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<shevy>
I see
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<wald0>
shevy: did you tried that enlightenment widgets for ruby ?
<shevy>
wald0 a hdd I had was failing lately
<shevy>
I had to reinstall everything
<shevy>
and since start of february I work in a company during the week. the weekend right now is like the only time I can get in some non-work related stuff
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<shevy>
so to answer your question wald0 no, not really
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* platzhirsch
roars…
<shevy>
hey platzhirscherl
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<platzhirsch>
Hola
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<platzhirsch>
You know how they say stay with one alcoholic drink at a party? This was me yesterday: Whiskey, Beer, Jägermeister, Vodka, Absinthe, Whiskey. Wooops!
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<shevy>
wow
<shevy>
how you can survive vodka I do not understand
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<shevy>
with vodka I can literally feel it grabs my neurones and tries to destroy them
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<platzhirsch>
A friend of mine gave me a bottle for borrowing him my vegan cooking book so long. It has a quite unusual alcohol concentration… 50%
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<platzhirsch>
shevy: well, since this is very true. You have a quite good observation to what this does to your body :P
<shevy>
I mean a single vodka would kill me, it's on my blacklist, I can not drink it
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: I really don't get why you should do it through the package manager
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: I mean, you can just run bundle install in your package as a command once your code is installed
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: against your gemfile, to install all dependencies
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: if you need some c dependencies (for rmagick for example) you definitely can put it in your debian package, but still specify gems through gemfile, that's the standard and correct way to handle gems
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: the entire ruby ecosystems base itself on rubygems bundler and gemfiles, not calling it stable seems quite weird considering there are thousands apps running on it...
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<wald0>
shevy: you must use a ready-to-use distro to saving your time :p
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<Tokenizer>
hi, I have a question about dynamic reflection, how can I do something like this ... question is at the bottom of this short paste: http://pastie.org/8715183
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<ep3static>
platzhirsch: hipster vodka lol
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<shevy>
wald0 then I would be in a prison
<platzhirsch>
ep3static: As a brand :)
<shevy>
wald0 right now I do "ry NAME_OF_PROGRAM" and it gets either compiled or installed
<wald0>
shevy: in fact, any alcohol destroys your neurons, more exactly 1 million of them for each "big party" (and we have a thousand of millions, only)
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<wald0>
so, one toushand of big parties == vegetable
<avril14th>
Hi
<platzhirsch>
Tokenizer: you need to split the string by character '.' and then apply each value with .send to the returning object
<avril14th>
I'm trying to have a method default parameter be the name of the calling method, I tried def whatever(method = __method__) but this always returns "whatever" and not the calling method. Any way to write this simply?
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: because what i want to do are apps in ruby ready to be used by debian* users, so by installing them with apt-get, so the gems should be available from deb's too, thats why :)
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<Tokenizer>
platzhirsch: got it thanks
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<wald0>
shevy: you are not in a prison since you are using a linux* system (prison is windows/mac where you cannot modify "all" the source code), since the linux system is easly customizable is much better than "start from scrach" so you have a base-point to use
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<shevy>
wald0 you are completely dependend on how debian layouts their system
<platzhirsch>
There is Linux from Scratch
<shevy>
and linux from scratch also goes one route
<wald0>
shevy: framework structure, yes, very well structured in debian, you can do anything uppon on it
<wald0>
shevy: this is just like ruby... are you in a prison by using ruby just because it doesn't allow you to do all the assembly code by your own ?
<shevy>
all I am saying is that I do not follow any structure, the only statement I make is that whenever I can, I use the source
<avril14th>
all hints are welcome :)
<wald0>
or you should use assembly instead because of the "layouts of ruby" ?
<shevy>
wald0 yeah, I have to use what was made available to me. in your setup though this is worse, you can not use non-debian gems
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: I don't get, I was sure that through a debian package you can type a custom installation script, so to me the right way to handle it is install your package which will require ruby installation (how you handle it? There are a lot of people NOT using debian ruby because it's outdated, I use a 2.0.0 compiled version through RVM) and run your custom install script which just runs bundle install on your gemfile. This gives you both th
<wald0>
shevy: but, a (good) structure/framework is much better than plain or to re-do the whell :)
<wald0>
wheel*
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<shevy>
avril14th only way I know of is through caller()
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: so my debian package (for example) should depend of other debian packages (ruby gems that i need), doing it in "installing ruby gems script" is very hackish and without following the good structure policy
<avril14th>
so it is true to say that method parameters are evaluated in the context of the method, and not in the context of the calling one?
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<shevy>
avril14th I suppose so, anything else does not make sense or? it could not leak out of the method
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<avril14th>
well since parameters are supposed to come from the caller context
<shevy>
avril14th you could however use methods or default classes in your methods
<wald0>
shevy: yes you can, add some PATH and LD_STUFF vars in your bashrc/zshrc and you can use local gems, in fact, you can use any of your ruby setup by just copying a folder from one linux system to other (since they are run by user), not needed to redo all the entire OS
<shevy>
avril14th they do? I always thought they are local to the method and have no memory of what was passed to them
<avril14th>
I don't think I see what you mean shevy,what's that?
<shevy>
wald0 I refer to "gem install name" which you can't do if you use only debian-gems
<avril14th>
about the default classes
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<shevy>
avril14th well something like this:
<shevy>
def foo(i = Foo.bla)
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<avril14th>
oh ok
<shevy>
and modify Foo.bla freely before you call that method
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: what? It's not hackish you are installing ruby and rubygems (debian packages) and then you run the command you installed (rubygems) to manage ruby dependencies. You are confusing the package manager domain, gems are RUBY domain, while ruby executable are package manager domain
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: the fact that you need to recompile one thing to make it available as a debian package should be the hint that YOU are doing something hackish (recompiling a ruby gem into a debian package) considering that you already have a dependency resolution in your debian package
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<shevy>
people who use debian like their prison
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<shevy>
they adorn it with lots of niceties so it no longer looks like one
* platzhirsch
takes out the whip… “That's right”
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: the idea should be: myscript-debian-package depends on ruby, rubygems,imagemagick "install script" => run bundle install which installs rmagick (dependent on imagemagick), hashie, dunnowhatelse
<avril14th>
thanks shevy for the feedback
<shevy>
platzhirsch what OS do you use?
<shevy>
avril14th good luck
<platzhirsch>
shevy: :P Ubuntu
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: I do use debian xD
<shevy>
caller() is not very elegant but I don't know of another way
<shevy>
ack
<shevy>
YOU ARE ALL INFESTED WITH DEBIAN
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ahah
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
it's just an o.s.
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
i need something able to run
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ruby executable
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
lol
<shevy>
mac
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ahem
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
sorry
<wald0>
shevy: if im not wrong you can do "sudo gem install foo" and it will work system-wide, or "gem install --user-install" for install it locally without root privileges and only affecting to that user
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
i'm not going to move from a free thing
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
to a prison
<shevy>
wald0 yeah
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
lol
<shevy>
wald0 at work I have to do --user-install
<shevy>
I have a proud windows pc
<shevy>
the only windows pc in the whole room :(
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: the best way to handle ruby is compiling it for your user so you won't have issues with sudo gem install
<platzhirsch>
I have a Windows, too. But it's not proud, it's in a latex suited and locked down in a box.
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: I have windows and debian
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
but really
<shevy>
windows makes me so sad
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
debian is "just" an interface to ruby xD
<shevy>
at least putty is somewhat useable
<shevy>
and my shell aliases work too
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: oh I managed to hack windows a bit
<avril14th>
shevy: It works great with def whatever(method = caller[0]) but this caller[0] changes if you debug the code with breakpoints ^^ :)
<platzhirsch>
shevy: Why putty when there is Cygwinx?
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: just add the debian package dependencies to the "Dependencies: foo, bar" list of the control file in the debian package and they will be installed if they exist in one of the debian repos that you have
<shevy>
avril14th ewww such a code would scare me
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: I have a situation very similar to yakuake + linux terminal
<shevy>
yakuake?
<shevy>
on windows?
<shevy>
HOW?
<avril14th>
shevy: other way is to force the method name at each call
<wald0>
shevy: infested? sure, because debian is very good made :) its meant to be the universal operating system
<shevy>
at work the infrastructure is debian server btw :)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: yes but you said the fatal sentence previously "I can't use hashie because it's not available as a package" THAT'S the definition of a prison
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: you can say whatever you want, but you are doing it wrong
<wald0>
i assume that will be "really" the universal operating system if will use NIX packages instead (which features both dynamic and static features for apps/libs)
<shevy>
wald0 did you write something in ruby-enlightenment yet btw?
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<shevy>
something that one could install via gems ideally :D
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: with a mix of executables
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: I use Autohotkey for the hotkey that "drags down" the console, Console2 as console terminal
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: not really, I CAN use it for myself, i just cannot distribute my ruby app in a debian-package form if the ruby-hashie package doesn't exist (only in wheezy, it exist in jessie), but this has 2 solutions: install it in a normal way, or include the dependency
<wald0>
which i have already just ported (ruby-hashie) to wheezy :)
<wald0>
at hte same time, everywhere you have the same problem, you should provide required dpeendencies for your app (or a way to install them)
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<shevy>
Fire-Dragon-DoL hmm dan
<shevy>
I can not install anything as superuser on that windows machine :(
<wald0>
shevy: just a few tests, nothing serious, im a bit blocked by the fact that im not expert in ruby yet and there's some ruby syntax that i dont understand/know, reading the ruby-FFI doc i dont quite understand all so im a bit blocked here
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: hashie has 1157 likes on github, means it's a famous gem and it wasn't present (already) in wheezy, what about less famous gem or your personal gems that you may have used to build your software, will you backport like 1 billion libraries into debian packages? Still, feels completely wrong
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
not to mention the fact that during uninstallation process you'll remove the package, uninstalling the gem but I may have built a script which uses that gem
<wald0>
shevy: install by gems? sure, just install the ffi-efl gem and you can run the test.rb files :) but you need to have libefl/libelementary libraries compiled/installed in your system
<wald0>
and so the .rb files will work out of the box
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: plus mingw or cygwin, yourchoice, consider that it's a bit hacky to make them work in your current working directory but after it, you have something very similar
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: how much old is hashie? note that wheezy is already pretty old, but the actual development of debian has hashie included in their repos (which happened at least 4 months ago)
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: I have no idea, considering commits, more than 4 years
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<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: thats why the debian packages system (for ruby apps) is so good, it manages dependencies, conflicts, etc... you cannot uninstall a gem if other applilcation depends on it
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<wald0>
but you can break that by using gems :þ
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<shevy>
it even is a fragile prison!
<wald0>
well, maybe im wrong ?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: really? How the hell you know if I write a script which just do "require 'hashie'"
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
lol
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
that could be eventually my fault because I didn't include a gemfile
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
but in ruby you will just do bundle install at the gemfile level and it will reinstall hashie
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
with the correct version
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
(for that script)
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: not sure to understand you, if you write a ruby app which requires something, when you package your app for debian you need to include the dependency to your package controls file, but very probably this is automatically generated by the packager tools
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<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: if your app requires hashie and bundle installs it, and i write a ruby app which conflicts which hashie (so requires to remove it), it is removed and so your app not working anymore on me?
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: exactly because I installed it through rubygems
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: not through package manager
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: so (if we are talking about the same thing) this is better in debian because you cannot install my app because it will break your app
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<wald0>
things needs to be secure and stable, it is not allowed to instlal things that breaks other things, this is unaceptable and painful
<wald0>
unreliable OS's does that, not debian (even if is not perfect, its meant to be as much as possible)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
no the point was that my app may have not been written as a debian package (and probably this is the common case)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
what if I need
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
3 version of hashie
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
one for 1.9 one for 2.0 and one for 2.1
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<wald0>
well ok, now we are talking about different things: your app is just an app that you can publish anywhere, this is good, but debian is a "complete OS" with its own packaged software, so your app becomes part of a "reliable environment of available software", it needs to manage it correctly
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
and by the way you have to run EVERY script with bundle exec scriptfile which will ensure you have all gems installed when you run it
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
with the correct version
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<wald0>
before was libfoo-ruby, now they are ruby-foo, which is meant to include all hte versions/needs for each ruby version of the OS
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<wald0>
but what you mean, is more like a topic of a much-different packager system, like the one of NIX
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
no that's not possible considering I may need to have version 1.0.1 instead of 1.0.0
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
and there are version with much more thant just 1.0.0 °°
<wald0>
that one allows you to have any version of anything, which points to any version of anything independently or togheter
<wald0>
(hard to explain :þ)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
dunno, to make it "debian usable" you are breaking the entire ruby environment
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
which has the native advantage of being portable
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
so if you change linux distro, move to a mac or even windows
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
you can still have everything working
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<shevy>
long live ruby
<shevy>
down with windows
<shevy>
down with debian
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
windows is the best os for gaming
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
you can say whatever you want
<shevy>
true
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
but that's the truth :P
<shevy>
it is the only reason it still survives
<shevy>
because there is a large faction of gamers out there
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
yes but it's a good one
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
lol
<pontiki>
yup, every other OS is for getting work done.
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: if you need (for yourself) version 1.0.1 of ruby-hashie in debian, you can install it locally and it works perfectly, if you want to "provide your app for debian ecosystem" you need to have your app to depend correctly of the other debian packages, on this case, you must contact the maintainer of ruby-hashie to update its version or wait for it in wheezy, but it will be probably updated in the other less-stable debian branches
<shevy>
imagine if they would transition to mac or linux
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<shevy>
wow
<kiba>
anybody having trouble with debugger not being supported in ruby 2.1.0?
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<shevy>
Fire-Dragon-DoL you must contact debian maintainers!
<wald0>
gaming is a cancer on the human evolution :) sorry
<pontiki>
nah, kiba, i just use pry
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
kiba: you mean pry-debugger ?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: I'm not in prison but I have to contact my prison director
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ok this was a joke
<shevy>
lol
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<shevy>
I <3 that
<kiba>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: hmm?
<wald0>
really, you guys are saying nonsense things :þ
<wald0>
there's no prison
<shevy>
ok
<kiba>
pontiki: is pry a drop in replacement?
<shevy>
do "gem install pry"
<wald0>
there's a big freedom (not full but very high)
<kiba>
I just use "debugger" and then irb inside
<kiba>
very useful combination
<lagweezle>
also potentially 'gem install pry-doc'
<wald0>
i still not get the point of hte prison, really
<shevy>
yeah, the classic redefinition of freedom
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<shevy>
when something restricts you, they tout it as an advantage and lie you in the face that you get more out of things that way
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<wald0>
you have an entire OS with the source open hwich you can modify entirely, and it is also made to allow you do install/replace/remove anything that you need for your own
<shevy>
Welcome to GPL3
<wald0>
so where's the prison ?
<kiba>
the prison industrial complex! increasing guard labor, but no future capital growth!
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<shevy>
Yes but you can not leave that prison wald0
<shevy>
wald0, can I use debian in an app-dir like fashion, side by side with source compilations?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: dunno, it feels redundant in any case, ruby has a package manager already and it works really nice because can interact directly with user code, you can stick with porting every gem into a debian package but defeats the purpose of ruby gems, which is "everyone develop his own gems for his apps" which also promote a good coding style (module programming) and the fact that they can be easily built/deployed everywhere
<shevy>
no I can't! because there can be only one entry at /usr/bin/ruby, not as many as I like to
<wald0>
which prison? please define it so i dont understand your point at all
<wald0>
shevy: yes you can
<shevy>
I doubt that :)
<wald0>
shevy: entirely false, i experienced by my own that you can do ANYTHING as user
<shevy>
very unlikely
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<wald0>
so let's say, you install a simple debian as base, then you can have as user anything that you need
<lagweezle>
/usr/bin/ruby-<version>
<wald0>
i did this in dreamhost hosting, since i was unable to install packages that i needed
<shevy>
wald0 you still have only one entry slot available for any given name at /usr/bin
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: I do not like gplv3, for the moment my favourite license is (still) mit
<wald0>
installed ruby or python apps, C ocmpiled applications, and any dependencies that i needed to have
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<pontiki>
kiba, not exactly, but almost
<shevy>
the latter usually works because /usr/lib gets versioned for the respective programs, like /usr/lib/ruby/1.8 etc..
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<lagweezle>
Hrmf. The #capistrano channel seems like it only has lurkers / idlers and not much else.
<wald0>
shevy: you have $HOME/bin, for exaple
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
pontiki: now I want to play prison architect
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
lagweezle: ask here or in rubyonrails
<pontiki>
kiba, where you would put debugger in a ruby script, instead you put binding.pry (or binding.pry-remote if it's a remote pry session)
<lagweezle>
For Capistrano 3, how do I alter the PATH environment variable (and confirm it's alteration)? All I've found online doesn't appear to work and/or confuses me. :/
<shevy>
wald0 yeah but I can install anything into my home dir anyway, we are talking about the underlying OS
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<pontiki>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: my daughter is working hard to reform and/or abolish the prison system.
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
lagweezle: I have no idea :S
<AlexRussia>
param-pam-pam, to my distro walk ruby 2.1
<wald0>
shevy: no, we are talking about using debian as a prison :)
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
pontiki: clearly she never played prison architect
<wald0>
shevy: so if you, as an user, are unable to do anything that you need, then you are in a prison
<shevy>
it is a prison! start using gems!
<pontiki>
clearly, she doesn't want you to either
<wald0>
what makes $HOME/bin wrong ? since you CAN use it as you whish
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<pontiki>
read some foucault before you do
<shevy>
I can use any other directory just as well, you can simulate a whole distribution therein
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
pontiki: can't it's an indie game, can't resist, too fun D
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
xD
<wald0>
shevy: so where is hte prison ? þ
<shevy>
wald0 I explained it about 3 times now :(
<wald0>
shevy: sorry, i still not get the point hat you can do anything that you want
<wald0>
cannot*
<shevy>
wald0 ok. can I have appdirs on debian
<wald0>
sure, set up your users to use their own local dirs where they has full permission
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: if you use debian package manager you are bound to debian, while C is not cross platform and it's ok to have it in a package manager, ruby was born as a portable executable, bounding it to a debian package actually reduce the freedom of usage of that script so technically speaking you are "enprisoning" your executable
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<shevy>
wald0 you are speaking about the "do it on your own" way here. I am speaking about the OS level
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<wald0>
if you meant "i cannot use /usr/bin from my user", what is wrong with that? you system should not allow virus to exist so it needs to have a permissions-structure & reliable system
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<shevy>
^^^ prison
<shevy>
You restrict what a user can do on the OS level.
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<pontiki>
only if you don't give them root
<shevy>
even with root, you just can not have appdirs on debian
<wald0>
no, you restrict the system to be secure and reliable without allowing unsecurity to exist
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<pontiki>
what are appdirs?
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<shevy>
pontiki so use as many different versions as you want to side by side
<pontiki>
like on bsd and darwin?
<wald0>
its just like ocmparing "chaotic anarchy" and "organized anarchy", i hope to see a future without the first one :)
<lagweezle>
What is an appdir?
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<shevy>
versioned programs in essence
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<pontiki>
right, ok
<pontiki>
and?
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<shevy>
you don't have that on debian
<wald0>
shevy: btw, finally, what you are saying is just what the NIX package system does (entirely independent apps and libs and their dependencies), you can use the NIX package system in debian too
<pontiki>
and?
<shevy>
wald0 I know
<shevy>
pontiki No and
<pontiki>
i guess i'm wonder so what?
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<wald0>
shevy: so no prison, you can do it, use nix on debian if you want chaotic anarchy
<pontiki>
what can't you do?
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: on second point, if you write a rails application for example that you'll release on a server and you are paid to do it, you won't probably release the source code in a debian package. Now, suppose your rails app uses hashie gem and you are on a shared host where you don't have root privileges, you can clearly install your rails app and just run "bundle install", no issue, will work fine. What happens if you have your "hashie" gem
<shevy>
wald0 on the OS level?
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<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: right, and you can do the same with C compiled apps and python dependencies too
<shevy>
wald0 and what would you say before nix existed? ;)
<pontiki>
meh, you're all being entirely hypothetical
<wald0>
shevy: yes
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<wald0>
shevy: before? write it and use it :) you still no prison if you can do that
<shevy>
lol
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
one of the first thing you discover using ruby (spread all over the web), if you are doing sudo gem install or sudo bundle install, you are doing it wrong
* wald0
always wanted to play with NIX, but never found time for it... another good debian point: ready to use, solid and stable
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: by the way you can't talk about prison if you talk about mac (forced hardware)
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<shevy>
Fire-Dragon-DoL I was kidding, I actually never used a mac :(
<shevy>
it would be nice if we could all 3d-print free hardware one day
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: oh ok xD
<shevy>
Fire-Dragon-DoL actually, I'd like to have OSX at work now
<shevy>
better than windows pc
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: the main point in choosing debian (when I chosen it) over any other linux distribution was "because it's stable"
<wald0>
shevy: since you have the entire source code of debian where you can do debianX, what makes you think that its a prison ?
* wald0
feels htat this convo goes nowhere
<shevy>
wald0 I explained it above already, you try to point out things which are simply not true. You can not get certain features in debian, plain and simple.
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
problem is that no one say you that if you don't switch to a testing/unstable branch, is stable because packages are HEAVILY updated
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<wald0>
shevy: which OS you used? arch? what makes it no-prison compared to debian? you are prisoned to do much things at your own instead of "apt-get install allthatineed"
<shevy>
wald0 gobolinux
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<littlebit>
hi people, i have a question concerning ruby and debian. ruby comes with it's gem command where you can and remove and update it's libraries, but debian has it's apt-get command where you can also install, remove and update ruby's libraries. Which one is the preferred way of maintaining ruby and it's libraries?
<wald0>
shevy: which feature i cannot have? tell me an example
<shevy>
wald0 in the past. Everything is a prison on some level, I did not install through gobolinux packages
<shevy>
wald0 AppDirs
<wald0>
shevy: well, tell me more exactly about a "real need that you cannot do"
<shevy>
wald0 it is a reel need
<shevy>
*real
<wald0>
ok
<shevy>
another debian user :)
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: I was joking with the prison thing but the fact that creating a debian package for a gem feels hackish more than installing the gem itself is true
<shevy>
they are SWARMING on #ruby
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<shevy>
littlebit, wald0 is an expert here regarding debian ;)
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<wald0>
see iphone OS for example, they has a root user which is only used for hte OS, and the "mobile" user which is YOUR user, all your AppsDir (iphone apps/ ipa's) are installed on the mobile user dirs
<wald0>
you can do exactly the same with debian
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I wanted an opensource o.s. and an opensource code editor because I'm too scared of "i drop support" on a closed software that can cause disasters
<shevy>
wald0 look at littlebit!
<wald0>
new users are created from the /etc/skel dir, change on it hte configurations that you need so that every new user will use its own AppsDir
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
and I don't want to start hearing "pay xxx$ eveyr year to get updates"
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<wald0>
leave the root/OS dirs for the stability system and use user AppsDir for apps
<wald0>
easy and fast
<wald0>
and reliable
<shevy>
wald0 how can I switch versions?
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<wald0>
littlebit: i suggest you to use debian packaged libs for your ruby apps, but if you have a need that is not included in the packages then use "gem install --user-install" (iirc) for these ones
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<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: gem tool is good for ruby ecosystem, debian packages of ruby elements is good for the debian/os ecosystem
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<wald0>
shevy: iphone OS is an AppDir, right? how you switch versions on iphone?
<ddd>
wait wait wait. am I reading this right? (Please tell me I'm not) Because you are subjected to unix permissions (chmod+chown), because users can't install packages willy nilly, and because they have to use a package manager (obstensively using sudo) the OS is therefore a prison?
<shevy>
wald0 I have absolutely no idea, I never used one
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<shevy>
ddd nope, you did not read it right. it's best to read up the whole backlog rather than focus on mini-elements
<ddd>
I really hope I read that wrong. Or I'm gonna have one HELL of a belly laugh off that (can always use a laugh). I'll also think people have lost their minds
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<wald0>
ddd: seems like that is what they are saying lol, as i said comparing "chaotic anarchy" with "organized anarchy"
<ddd>
shevy thought I had read back. but it read like that was being said, so I figured I'd ask for clarification before I went ahead and laughed and thought people nuts
<ddd>
glad i did
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<wald0>
shevy: but you still can install and use nice-app-1.0.2 and nice-app-1.0.3, nothing stops you
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<ddd>
wald0 use of what I mentioned isn't even controlled anarchy. Its system management. proper system management. so figured I'd ask (which I did) to make sure I hadn't misread (which I had)
<shevy>
wald0 ok so how I switch specifically, can you show the syntax?
<wald0>
shevy: at the same time you can write a small script that switches "an entire environment with vars and ld_dirs" pointing to different places like those "rmv?" scripts
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<wald0>
ddd: i not said "controlled anarchy" but "organized anarchy" :) meaning "well-structured"
<ddd>
shevy you can only have 1 if using a pkg. you *can* install multiples iirc by changing the default install location in order to avoid pkg file overwrites. but that makes for one HELL of a messy pkg tree.
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<shevy>
yeah I know that very well
<ddd>
or you talking configure ; make ; make install?
<shevy>
no
<shevy>
I was asking wald0 how I can get appdirs on debian
<ddd>
ah
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
well I found various packages in debian that do have issues installing
<wald0>
shevy: using environment variables is an easy and realible way to switch an entire ecosystem/needs/libs/deps/apps/dependencies/actual-date/food-dog/anything
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
(even on wheezy)
<ddd>
fire-dragon-dol yeah there are a few
<AntelopeSalad>
does anyone know how i can get thor to list all of my commands when using namespaces?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I'm still waiting for a debian package "skype install" which will never come if I understood o.s. policies
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: did you have reported the bug to debian ?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: no, few weeks later the entire o.s. exploded with a kernel panic
<shevy>
Fire-Dragon-DoL don't they have something like inofficial contrib packages for things like skype?
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: not os-policies, skype-policies, they dont allow debian to do it
<ddd>
fire-dragon-dol debian definitely has improved over the last few years in that regard. my problem is simply (though I understand why they take this route) older libs/pkgs. version wise
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: so then dont expect to be magically solved if nobody reports (and so know about it)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: they have but the one I tried doesn't work xD
<ddd>
but thats not debian's forte so I'm perfectly fine with their choice. Hard as hell to properly bug hunt when the versions are changing under you
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: mh? Doesn't ubuntu have it in its package manager?
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: btw i seriously doubt that you can have a kernel panic with using a pure debian system (not tainted kernel modules, or ndiswrapper, or strnage apps installed by your own, OH! and specially not-official repositories)
<ddd>
wald0 now THAT i have to laugh at
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: yes that's same issue for debian, I must swap to an "unstable" branch but at that point you need more o.s. knowledge that you may want to have
<ddd>
fire-dragon-dol true
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
that's the only big thing I complain about
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<ddd>
same
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<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: idk about ubuntu, but there should be a reason in debian to not include it
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AND another one: whatever software is not in package manager, you need a guide and debugging to install it
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<wald0>
ddd: which thing ?
<ddd>
fire-dragon-dol well thats ecosystem wide
<ddd>
regardless of the distribution
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<ddd>
wald0 that you doubt you can get a kernel panic with a pure debian system and their kernel
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: you can have a kernel panic with debian, you just need an SSD and debian wheezy
<ddd>
I can get kernel panics *easily* on your defined system. All I have to do is install a single card its supposed to support (A 3ware raid card)
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<ddd>
*easily* done
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
or just use debian on an ssd
<wald0>
ddd: yes doubt, it is a very-very-very-very cases that only happens if you use non-official debian repos, tainted kernel modules, or a very strange and cheapo hardware
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
withouot updating kernel
<wald0>
if we still talking of course about the stable branch of debian
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<ddd>
wald0 One word for you. Bullshit
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: im talking you from a ssd-laptop, all my machins has ssd and some mixed with mechanical disks
<wald0>
ddd: demostrate it
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
there is a bug in linux kernel 3.2.something (if I'm not wrong it was that version) REPORTED
<wald0>
ddd: htats my experience since more than 10 years using debian, no bullshit
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
which basically did something wrong with filesystem on ssds
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wrong writes so files got corrupted
<wald0>
linux-image-3.2.0-4-686-pae
<wald0>
using it, Fire-Dragon-DoL
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<wald0>
almost one year using it with my ssd, never had a problem
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
...wrong files got corrupted (o.s. files) and kernel panic obtained
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: don't use ext filesystems, specially ext4
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<wald0>
not mentioning experimental filesystems like btrfs
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<ddd>
wald0 Dude, I'm an ex Debian pkg maintainer and still upstream source. I've used Debian for years, and I've been using linux faithfully (as in as default OS) since kernel 1.0.8 (actually .7 but .8 was released the next day). I've been using Linux since SLS was first released. We can float pedigrees if you want, but its useless.
<littlebit>
wald0: thank you for the quick answer,but will the be a conflict with ruby's "gem install" and debian's "apt-get install" ? Or will they work in harmony?
<wald0>
maybe im fired if i said that but, my experience demostrates that the most-ever reliable filesystem is reiser3
<wald0>
(and faster)
<ddd>
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
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<ddd>
ok, that kicks *me* out of the conversation
<wald0>
ddd: not your experience aparently :)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: yes how am I supposed to know such a thing when I'm installing debian (STABLE!!!) for the first time
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<shevy>
the only ironic thing here is that you guys ALL use debian :)
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<ddd>
wald0 reisferfs has NEVER been a stable filesystem. Its maintenance tools were busted since day one. (Not to mention its author going nuts and killing his wife or some such)
<wald0>
ddd: "very rare to have kernel panics" doesn't mean impossible, but there must be a reason if you had it
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: I use debian because of suggestion and I'm too lazy to swap
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<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: well, the installer gives you a choice, but debian guys decided to use ext* as default (i think that is set to default? not sure), right you are not supposed to know it unless you read some info about them
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: I had a LOT of issues with my pcs this year (3 hdd break, 1 ssd break, 2 motherboard fault)
<ddd>
reiser has *never* been considered stable. it was a concept FS with a bunch of broken toolsets for working with it that are *still* busted
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: yes ext4 is default and ext3 is heavily discouraged
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
and I want some windows compatibility
<pontiki>
my goodness. there are a whole bunch of men singing someplace...
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
so if an HDD explode, I can try to recover with both oses
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<shevy>
Fire-Dragon-DoL yeah, I had 2 failing hdds already this year, and it's only like 40 days old :( it is going to be a very stupid year
<wald0>
ddd: author's life has no relation with source-code quality, and we cannot of course debate things that we don tknow, anyways: reiser3 was maintained by suse, is very old, tested, and very stable
<shevy>
the year I mean
<shevy>
the hdds are about 3 years old
<shevy>
I do suspect purposely sloppy quality!
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: it's the issue with the rain in india =\ quality went down quite fast
<shevy>
pontiki would you rather listen to a kids choir?
<AntelopeSalad>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: have you thought about investing in a UPS?
<pontiki>
no, i'm just awfully surprised i can hear it
<wald0>
ddd: reiser3 uses checksumed inodes, which verify's the data integrity, also iirc ext* filesystems DELETES your data if they looks corrupted, reiser3 moves the inode reference to the old data (or something lke that? not sure)
<ddd>
wald0 yeah, there was a reason. The 'pure debian system' with its released kernel didn't like the hardware. Debian was the *only* distribution release that *had* a problem witht he card. RHEL, OpenSuse, CentOS, and even my beloved FreeBSD (yeah not linux but shows other OSs work with it) had no issues with the card. It happens. ANY os can have issues
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: I have it from APC, it's quite good
<pontiki>
normally it's so quiet here
<shevy>
all my hdds that failed had ext* something btw!
<pontiki>
maybe someone has their tv turned way up or something
<ddd>
no it does NOT delete the data. it ataches the inodes to lost+found
<lagweezle>
shevy: What brand / model?
<ddd>
are you *sure* you know linux?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: no power fault, they were all DOA (3 hdds) or DOA after ~30 days
<pontiki>
what's happening on the olympics right now? maybe it's that
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<shevy>
lagweezle, wheee lemme look ... one maxtor... one seagate (or samsung, not 100% sure)
<AntelopeSalad>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: DOAs always stinks
<wald0>
ddd: yeah sure, but again, i said "i doubt" (== very rare), which doesn't means "impossible"... ddd how much time ago you dont have played with windows lol
<shevy>
pontiki dunno, they probably jump into snow naked and think it's awesome
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<wald0>
jk
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<pontiki>
some do....
<pontiki>
crazy people
<ddd>
wald0 I've dual booted for years. :shrug:
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: yes problem is that when you buy 3TB hdds and you store load of data on them, it's still heavy to loose them after 30 days
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: now I have 2x hdds and backed-up everything
<pontiki>
or, get this: chop a hole in the ice on a lake and jump in
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
even my ass
<AntelopeSalad>
i've seen power do some whacky things though, ever since i invested in a decent UPS and stopped buying low end power supplies i've never had a component die
<pontiki>
they do that by the 1000s here
<wald0>
ddd: being sarcastic, what's the difference between attaching the data to lost+found and removing it? lol
<shevy>
pontiki now that sounds crazy
<ddd>
wald0 really??
<shevy>
why would anyone want to do that?
<pontiki>
ikr??
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<ddd>
wald0 umm. one word. recovery
<pontiki>
my brother and my nephew
<pontiki>
i am related to insane people
<ddd>
pontiki hehe welcome to my world
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<pontiki>
makes my own insanity appear rather normal, i think
<shevy>
hehe
<wald0>
ddd: iirc, lost+found is a bunch of dirs of files without even a name where you are supposed to know them and that you can know how to search for them on that dir (things should be more user-friendly, imho)
<pontiki>
i grew up here, but i don't belong here
<shevy>
yeah
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: my power supplier is a corsair silver 850 (or 750 don't remember) and costed like 120 € so it's not a power issue, unless I'm really unlucky
<shevy>
it's how I relate to that word myself often
<shevy>
family
<pontiki>
give me an ocean, at least a coast, any day
<ddd>
pontiki I am crazy, not stupid. I prefer crazy. Normalcy is for the weak. its the only thing they know how to handle. I prefer insanity. Means my day is going to be slightly different. Different is good :)
<wald0>
ddd: if my FS commits every 5 min to the HD and i had a forced-shutdown, i would better have an 5-min old version of my file than a removed file (even if is moved to some misterious place where normal users dont even know aboutf
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<ddd>
wald0 dude, this is about recovery, NOT about user-friendliness. if your FS is so degraded that you have lost+found usage, you have FAR bigger problems than 'user friendliness'
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: I must admit recently I had some minor power issues but my hdds are fine right now. I still don't know if it's a power issue or whatever other hw related
<ddd>
wald0 and ext3,4 all provide for that
<wald0>
ddd: are you expected that all the users of linux* that want to go out of windows should be admin users ? :)
<ddd>
that is *exactly* what journaling helps mitigate. its why it came into being in the first place
<ddd>
wald0 I expect that if you're going to run an OS, you educate yourself on how to use it.
<wald0>
ddd: well, in my personal experience i never had serious problems with my data and forced shutdowns (i had a lot of them in the past) with reiser3
<pontiki>
ddd: one person's insanity is another person's stupidity
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<shevy>
one person's money is my money!
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
no I expect them not to be admin user, even if I'm a programmer I always complain that I must use console too much under debian
<ddd>
if you want windows use windows. if you really need the OS to do THAT much for you, ANY other OS is useless.
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
90% of my time is spent in console, sigh
<ddd>
pontiki lol true true
<shevy>
Fire-Dragon-DoL use ubuntu!
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: if I find time to reinstall
<shevy>
hehe
<AntelopeSalad>
firefly2013: yeah i dunno, i think losing that many HDs that quickly is unbelievably bad luck
<shevy>
Fire-Dragon-DoL break something critical
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<ddd>
fire-dragon-dol hehe I live in konsole :)
<wald0>
ddd: real world, my mother dont want to read my nice unix book, she things that dont understand anything from it and says that she only want to read his email and manage its photo-camera album
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: no please xD
<shevy>
Fire-Dragon-DoL then reinstalling will have to happen :)
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<shevy>
it's how I change my OS!
<shevy>
when I break something so much that I must reinstall
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: yea but I don't like it that much
<dachi>
shevy hi, can I know linux distro do you use or like because I'm debian user too :|
<shevy>
like glibc upgrades
<ddd>
wald0 My wife is probably one of the most NON technical people you'll ever meet. She uses Linux just fine
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: I mean, it's powreful but there are some tasks where it's needed and I really don't like it
<shevy>
dachi my current system is based on slackware but only because it gave me the fewest problems. about 98% of what I use right now is self-compiled, only kernel and glibc not (yet)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
well if you ONLY need to do "usual business" linux is ok
<ddd>
fire-dragon-dol ahh I tried like using RubyMine over vim, and always find myself back to konsole + tmux + tmuxinator + vim + scripts
<shevy>
dachi hmm and probably coreutils and binutils not yet, it's still rather fresh install here (~3 or 4 days old)
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: I tried ruby mine, don't kill me, i consider it crap
<shevy>
one of the first things I usually do is ... recompile ruby
<wald0>
ddd: anyways, "normal" dont eve know what is a terminal, they just see buttons and they click to them (that's what the GUI's are meant to be for!), real world is that we can enjoy doing admin things, but normal ppl dont give a sh...
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: rvm does it for me xD
<dachi>
shevy thanks
<ddd>
fire-dragon-dol I sort of like it, but I admit its hard to use. it's keystrokes are weird, it's memory usage is huge, and to me its overkill
<shevy>
everyone is using debian, it's amazing
<shevy>
even matz is using debian
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: man, why can't I have an UI even if I'm a sysadmin? I do prefer input to be suggested instead of digging through web for correct params xD
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: I use sublime (I want to swap to vim but I didn't find time to learn vim, sigh)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: BUT I will use windowed vim, I want all colors
<ddd>
wald0 amazing how my wife hasn't clue one on how to admin linux yet she uses it every single day for both business and pleasure with little to no problems (depends on the day and what she's doing of course)
<ddd>
fire-dragon-dol hehe I probably use less than 1/4 of the commands or capabilities of vim
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: and I do like the kde window manager (with "rules" and such things) so I think handling it in window + yakuake is enough for me
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<shevy>
use widowed vim?
<wald0>
ddd: and this is good, but what if your wife has a forced shutdown and files moved to lost+found ? is not better to just have an old copy of these files "out of the box" instead ?
<ddd>
you can get an aweful lot done with just the absolutely basic minimum of vim knowledge
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: yea but you know, vim is the only editor that if you give it to a user he have hard times typing even a single letter
<ddd>
wald0 dude, this is basic maintenance. this is how unix works. unless you have a backup, not even windows does that for you
<ddd>
so your point is moot
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
shevy: gvim I think it's called
<shevy>
that is the widowed version of vim?
<ddd>
fire-dragon-dol hehe ok, i can't argue against that :)
<ddd>
shevy yeah
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: vim is the only editor I closed because I thought it was bugged when I didn't manage to write a letter
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
so really vim is a very hostile software
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
lol
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<ddd>
gvim is built against the gnome libs, and provides a windowed version of vim
<shevy>
as long as nano is available as well
<ddd>
basically just vim in a bordered window
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<ddd>
fire-dragon-dol hehe
<wald0>
shevy: you may want to use plan9 instead :)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: this happened a lot of time ago, now I do appreciate vim and I want to use it
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: but I need some training
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
nano it's fine
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I think it must be default editor for shell, not vim
<shevy>
with vim I only try to use the minimum and ignore the rest
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
(or vi)
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<wald0>
ddd: not sure to get your point, so you mean that is better to have it moved to lost+found instead of a backup of 5-minutes ago ?
<ddd>
fire-dragon-dol good stuff. i admit its hostile. I've used vi/vim for freakin YEARS and I STILL don't know a whole lot of the advanced commands.
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
who's the crazy guy who set vi as default editor
<wald0>
ddd: i mean, for the normal end-user (admins can pick their most manually-i-do-everything) choices
<ddd>
vi is the one that i find truly hostile
<ddd>
vim is a definite improvement
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<ddd>
wald0 umm, most admins don't have the TIME to do everything manually.
<wald0>
ddd: not even shevy that want to :)
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<ddd>
we control too many machines. We use all the same stuff that end users do, a few GUI based admin tools as well. Its only when the GUI toolsets fail that most of us go to the commandline or when we have to script out stuff
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<shevy>
wald0 yeah, I use ruby to automate everything
<ddd>
shevy which is perfectly acceptable. i'd even say preferred
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
same here
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I have to check bash syntax
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
every time I need to build an if
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<ddd>
you using the Session gem?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
me?
<ddd>
yeah
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
no I have no idea what Session gem is
<ddd>
oh. bash shell access via gem
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<ddd>
great for launching commands in subshells, capturing the environment and other changes, then using ruby to manipulate
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
cool
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
oh COOL
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I used
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
something similar
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
let me check
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<ddd>
i started DTF using the session gem. I've since found other cleaner ways to do things in ruby without having to resort to launching sessions and stuff, but its definitely valuable
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: I used shell/executer gem
<ddd>
my first iteration of DTF used the session gem to launch sessions, then capture all data, then used Marshaling to replay, etc.
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
sounds really nice by the way, ruby is great as a script language °°
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I use it even on windows
<ddd>
checking it out
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: I think it does the same, you don't really need it
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<AntelopeSalad>
you should look into thor Fire-Dragon-DoL
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: I use thor, that was an addition
<ddd>
yeah its very similar to session gem
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: I had to run some C executables
<ddd>
but it has cleaner syntax i think based off a fast perusal of that page
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<AntelopeSalad>
i've been using it recently, it's so nice
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
yes it's lovely
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I also tried some Ruby C
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
it's horrible but it's not complex
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<ddd>
i've messed with thor. I like it. Got into it after reading Building Awesome Command-Line Applications in Ruby ebook
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<AntelopeSalad>
i've been using it recently to write a few command line tools, really enjoying it
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
anyway even if I use debian I want to spend some time to remember everyone that you can actually use windows as a development o.s., it's not that terrible but needs a lot of tweaks (much more than other oses) but can be ok
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
following softwares are required: cygwin (or mingw), Console2, Autohotkey (all mentioned softwares are free or open)
<ddd>
my other big issue with Windows is the linefeed differences, so many tweaks to get it right (as you mentioned) and I really don't like windows as a non-windows dev tool
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
well I don't like windows as a windows-dev-tool too
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
because visual studio is so heavy
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
last time I tried was 2010 and was too heavy
<ddd>
2012/2013 are really nice as far as IDEs go
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
(i loved visual studio some times ago)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
but missing console commands and such are actually a big issue in windows
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
and most of all
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
the backslash in path
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
that creates an insane layer of incompatibilities xD
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<wald0>
ddd: crap, im researching since days (from time to time) about ruby + shell/bash and I never heard about session before!
<ddd>
animehti because its *the* premiere occupational association to have membership in. Members are expected to follow a code of ethics which helps to improve our occupation, not hurt it
<wald0>
ddd: readed about thor, mixlib-* ones, methadone, etc... and i thought that i checked all of them
<wald0>
ddd: researching specially for gems available from apt-get
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
thor is the way to go
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
because it's used internally in rails
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
and rails is adopted by too many programmers
<ddd>
wald0 I will not use the OS's ruby
<AntelopeSalad>
the only problem i have with thor is you can't install a remote script
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
not to use it xD
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<AntelopeSalad>
you could, but it requires downloading it with wget/curl first
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: mhhh what you mean?
<AntelopeSalad>
like let's say i want to share a thor script with you
<wald0>
ddd: but i would like to package my ruby apps that will simply works with dpkg installing it
<AntelopeSalad>
i can't just tell you to do: thor install <url> like i can with a rails template
<AntelopeSalad>
i would have to give you some 1 liner that curls the file, thor installs it, then deletes the original file
<ddd>
wald0 specialized case. not the norm. expect bumps, as always, when doing non standard things. even in the ruby community thats non-standard
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: can't you say gem install yourgem and run blablah?
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: ah you want to run the script from remote
<wald0>
ddd: im more debian-standard than ruby-standard :)
<AntelopeSalad>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: yeah
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<ddd>
so your 'would like' is just that. a personal wish, and something not a norm for either the OS (considering the backend technology), or for the language used
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: I think you can make a gem that does it in like 1 seconds
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
second*
<ddd>
wald0 your fault
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<AntelopeSalad>
i've actually never made a gem before
<wald0>
ddd: s/fault/case/
<ddd>
antelopesalad easy peasy
<tongcx>
hi guys, when i use 'after' in sinatra to modify the response body, it doesn't work, the response don't change, why?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: it's more stupid that you can think of but there are a few gotchas
<ddd>
wald0 s/case/fault/
<wald0>
ddd: nothing wrong, i assume
<AntelopeSalad>
might be worth it because i noticed you can't version thor scripts (AFAIK)
<AntelopeSalad>
but a gem would solve that problem too
<ddd>
i said what i mean and mean what i say
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: the main point is: bundle gem gem_name
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<wald0>
ddd: do you mean that i should distribute my ruby app for debian machines using gem/something instead of dpkg ?
<ddd>
what *exactly* is so 'debian machines' specific that you *have* to use dpkg rather than the norm of gems for ruby stuff/
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
AntelopeSalad: you can even make a gem fork of thor (github) and make a pull request
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<ddd>
i'd wager money anything you are saying is 'debian specific' can *easily* be coded to work on *any* linux machine
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
yea that's a good point
<AntelopeSalad>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: maybe, but one thing about the normal ver of thor is you already have it if you have rails
<ddd>
i mean if you absolutely positively HAVE to have debian packages, then use debianize gem
<AntelopeSalad>
i think i might go the gem route, it can't be that hard
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<AntelopeSalad>
or there wouldn't be that many gems available hah
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<ddd>
but i'd wager real cash that unless you are *specifically* manipulating the dpkg cache, installed pkg list, etc your script could be rewritten to work on *any* linux (and probably most of the BSDs too)
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<wald0>
ddd: local machines running debian wheezy all of them
<ddd>
wald0 and?
<wald0>
better to use dpkg myapp
<wald0>
well, apt
<wald0>
packaged, ready to use, dealing with dependencies, etc
<ddd>
the fact they're running wheezy means crapall. this is *specifically* why we have the /usr/local portion of the tree
<wald0>
gem/bundle install looks more hacking to me, without the same reliability/stability (well, maybe im wrong, it just looks for me much better to use dpkg)
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<ddd>
the only deps you have to worry about are extremely basic
<AntelopeSalad>
dgkgs have some uses i think, imagine if your entire rails app was wrapped up as a pretty package that you could get apt install
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: development enviroment VS user enviroment
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<ddd>
wald0 how exactly does it give you better control? you *still* have to define your deps, just as you do for a gem, *still* have to ensure debian/rules knows how to manage file overwrites, deps etc, *exactly* as you have to with gems
<wald0>
ddd: maybe becuase im not much familiariezed with gem/ruby, and apt is a "single one stuff", so installing new machines just include the package
<ddd>
only difference is dpkg is centralized, and gems are by default not centralized (other than grabbing from upstream repos)
<ddd>
ahh so we come to the ACTUAL crux of the issue. YOUR skill level
<ddd>
and your apt is single-one-stuff can just as easily be done in ruby with gems as it is using apt/dpkg
<wald0>
ddd: what about using ruby-* packages on debian wheezy VS manually install gems? they are not meant to be more stable and better integrated with the other ruby* related things of the debian OS ?
<ddd>
:shrug: so I see no real case-supporting evidence from what you've said so far
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<ddd>
nope. they're just split up more to make it easier for the individual pkg maintainers, and because debian thinks ruby should be more split up than it is
<wald0>
ddd: are you saying that all the packages of ruby-* in the debian repos are useless?
<ddd>
has nothing to do with being more stable OR better integrated
* wald0
confused
<ddd>
wald0 yeah cause that is SO what I said. (NOT)
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<ddd>
wald0 there are far more ruby packages that comprise ruby overall under debian than there needs to be
<ddd>
they basically chunked the hell out of ruby for no real reason
<shevy>
:)
<ddd>
they did it because they could and because they wanted to. there is no reason to split out ruby into so many packages like debian has.
<ddd>
the way debian has
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<ddd>
you throw 'stability and better integration' at me, and I'ma REALLY laugh
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<wald0>
ddd: i dont get your point, dpkg & debian is meant to be "a single location for the entire OS and their software", you can "apt-get install" all the software that you need/want, this is the idea, you want to remove the possibility to install ruby software just because you think that is better to do it in another "more ruby" way ?
<wald0>
what's the goal to have dpkg/apt then ? if is not the centralized location of all the OS software/files/structure?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I'm not an experienced user but while apt-get is meant to be a single location for the entire OS and their software, it is not, at all xD
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<wald0>
when you deboostrap/install a debian system, you need to give a user-manual to the user saying "oh btw, if you want to isntall ruby apps we dont have it, you need to use gem/bundle so please read their respective manuals"
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
70% of software (not libraries) are installed by download and compile or by download and install following guides
<wald0>
?
<ddd>
wald0 dude, debian is *notorious* for chunking up software into 5 or 6 packages for no real reason other than "we can work on XYZ separately"
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<ddd>
their division line for chunking is seriously lacking
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: doesn't debian have rubygem packaged toghether in the ruby package? I'm sure it does
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<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: all my computers doesn't use anything else than debian packages, i dont compile things that i need, i just apt-get them, compile is a bunch of time and hole of time lost
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* ddd
snickers and walks away to do something useful.
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: yes, but seems like ddd is telling me that this is useless and bad
<wald0>
so im confused
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<itadder>
hi
<itadder>
I did gem install davclient
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: I don't know how you handle it but node (not last version) ruby, have 3 version, jruby same, sublime text not available in package, skype same, chrome not available in package (or didn't work? Or had to add another repository, I don't remember), teamspeak same, I mean... I would love to have everything there, but it's not true the right moment they say they want only open source things in package manager
<itadder>
but when I try to run dav I get this
<itadder>
"System/Library/Frameworks/Ruby.framework/Versions/2.0/usr/lib/ruby/2.0.0/rubygems/core_ext/kernel_require.rb:45:in `require': cannot load such file -- hpricot (LoadError)"
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
itadder: I suppose you need the c binding
<ddd>
no, what I'm saying is Debian needlessly adds complexity that wasn't there before, and that relying on the package manager for the OS for *everything* you want to install (to include forcing the pkg manager of YOUR choice on something that already HAS its OWN manager and ways of doing things JUST so YOU can rely on the OS'S pkg manager is nuts
<itadder>
oh I need gcc
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<ddd>
)
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
itadder: dunno, I have a package named libhpricot-ruby, I suppose it's ok
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<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: authors of skype/sublime/etc dont allow debian to include it, is not a debian issue but an issue from the authors of this software
<itadder>
I am using default ruby bulit in to mavericks
<wald0>
wlel, not issue, their license/rules
<shivshnkr>
i am not able to use a gem behind proxy
<itadder>
shivshnkr: that sucks
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
itadder: I have no idea how mac works, sorry =S
<shivshnkr>
where do i need to specify proxy setting?
<itadder>
why do you have proy
<itadder>
proxy
<shivshnkr>
itadder: college
<itadder>
ahh
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: well that's because you watch it from the other side. Considering Ubuntu has skype in repositories I'm quite sure the licensing issue is with debian
<shivshnkr>
itadder: college people don't allow direct connections
<itadder>
what a way to to shutdown creativity
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<wald0>
ddd: but if you remove that "complexity", you dont have anymore ruby apps/libs in debian ecosystem/repos anymore
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<itadder>
skype is not free as in beer
<wald0>
software management in deiban uses a centralized point called apt/dpkg
<ddd>
Not to mention there is a CRAPLOAD of software that A) Debian doesn't believe should be included directly (file formats, music formats, different browers, etc) all of which are determined by their OWN project policies that have no impact on the software other than being forced-excluded from the core packages of the OS, and B) that there IS software out there that people use *everyday* that Debian won't accept and make available ...
<ddd>
... forcing usage of external non-core repositories
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<ddd>
wald0 I know exactly what debian uses, all the way down to the debian/rules file from which all packages are generated
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<ddd>
and your comment that if you remove the complexity you don't have anymore ruby apps/libs in the repos is ludicrous
<itadder>
is apt written in perl
<itadder>
or C
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I don't know but for the moment, apt-get has proven useful for c libraries, for software, usually I can't install it through repository
<ddd>
its in C++
<wald0>
ddd: so how i should apt-get install ruby-niceapp instead, on such case?
<itadder>
ahh wow
<itadder>
gem
<itadder>
gem install
<wald0>
but i want to use apt-get, this is the purpose of apt in the end :)
<wald0>
not "want", is the centralized location of install it
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: can't you run an install script at the end of your package install?
<ddd>
wald0 again, your arbitrarily forcing *ruby* to conform to *your* chosen package manager. and making it out to be *ruby's* fault which it is anything but
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<ddd>
s/your/you're/
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<itadder>
ddd: hmm
<itadder>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: you probally can
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: if that install is not entirely from a static version on the repositories, you cannot report bugs to THAT version, or you cannot download if hte link is down, etc..
<ddd>
ruby has a 'pkg manager' its called gem
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<itadder>
just create a wrapper in apt install that runs a script that uses gem install
<shivshnkr>
itadder: how to make it work?
<wald0>
Fire-Dragon-DoL: or a version installed in different time than other ones can be broken or have bugs not found in other ones
<ddd>
and you can have all of that with apt/dpkg as well
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: but you can specify some specific ruby gems version so bugs won't change
<ddd>
THAT is *specifically* a quality-of-application-and-packaging issue. NOT a ruby gem vs. pkg manager issue
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
wald0: as I said, for me, just run bundle install automatically at the end of your debian package
<ddd>
you're convoluting it
<wald0>
anyways
<wald0>
this convo not goes anywhere productive
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<shivshnkr>
itadder: my proxy issue, i don't get an answer on stackoverflow too
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<ddd>
it has to have a productive start for it to go anywhere. your criteria isn't
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<shivshnkr>
itadder: there?
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<itadder>
bye
<itadder>
I have to go
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<AntelopeSalad>
ddd: you seem to have a lot of sys admin experience, would it be totally unacceptable for a random script to clear your screen?
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<ddd>
depends on what it was doing when it wiped, or what was previously on the screen. most install pkgs wont because there could be critical info on the screen.
<ddd>
i'm heavily against it for that reason
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<AntelopeSalad>
ddd: assume it dumps out 200-250 lines of text, nothing critical was output but it could be mildly interesting to someone
<AntelopeSalad>
but at the very bottom it outputs instructions to do something, i wanted those instructions to be front and center
<ddd>
i'd log it instead and refer the admin/user to the log file.
<AntelopeSalad>
the output of the script is also useless
<AntelopeSalad>
it's only reporting the steps it did (thor stuff)
<shevy>
hmm I am filling two different sql databases with INSERT statements
<shevy>
right now I work one after the other. first one gets finished, then the second one gets finished
<shevy>
would using Threads be an improvement?
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<jhass>
depends a bit on your target db but I think so
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<AntelopeSalad>
ddd: also if it helps, at the point where the clear occurs it is a guaranteed success that the script finished
<jhass>
shevy: doing it from separate connections can help too
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<ddd>
antelopesalad never rely on that. always rely on the exit code
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<AntelopeSalad>
basically it's a thor task that calls 6 other tasks, the clear/instructions happen once all 6 finish successfully
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<ddd>
admins look far more for exit codes than for something like a screen wipe. (also you can't change commands based on a wipe ;) )
<AntelopeSalad>
but then i thought about how crazy it is to clear someone's terminal without their permission
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<ddd>
just redir the output to a log file, and puts/print(f) only needed info
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<ddd>
yeah a LOT of people, especially admins, won't like that
<AntelopeSalad>
my use case is so insane i don't think anything exists to do what i want
<AntelopeSalad>
imagine this scenario... thor task #1 runs and outputs a few instructions , thor task #2 runs and outputs a few instructions
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<AntelopeSalad>
now imagine thor task #3 is composed of running #1/#2 and you want different instructions reported
<AntelopeSalad>
so the end game here is not to see the instructions written by #1/#2 if you ran task #3
<AntelopeSalad>
i would need to like... somehow clip off the last xyz lines of the terminal buffer, is that even possible?
<ddd>
just mes around with $stdout and $stderr as you need
<ddd>
s/mes\ /mess\ /
<AntelopeSalad>
the easy solution was to just clear the screen and output the custom task #3 instructions
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<ddd>
i'm looking at this as like a shell script would act. there's a freakin boatload of ways to do stuff in ruby so, i'd capture all output to a log, then explicitly print out only what i wanted/needed, and definitely would *not* wipe the user's screen
<AntelopeSalad>
it's not as easy as that because task #1/2 aren't scripts that i control
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<ddd>
you can control their output, parse it, etc if they're part of your process tree
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<ddd>
you can override all of their output since they're sub-processes/tasks
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<ddd>
if that wasn't true then ruby itself (and parts of itself) could/.would completely ignore any Logger changes etc
<ddd>
and since we know it doesn't ignore your overrides, there's your proof-in-the-pudding so to speak
<AntelopeSalad>
i don't even know what to google for, it's basically "how to remove specific lines from stdout"
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<ddd>
you have to read the $stdout and do preprocessing with maybe an 'if' or even a 'case' etc
<AntelopeSalad>
it would be like altering time, replacing some third party's stdout with empty lines
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<ddd>
yeah but if you're *that* intent on making it disappear, you gotta do leg work ;)
<ddd>
goes with the territory hehe
<ddd>
(no insult meant)
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<AntelopeSalad>
yeah i know
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<AntelopeSalad>
just not sure where to begin, maybe i should ask in #linux?
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<shivshnkr>
AntelopeSalad: how to resolve proxy issue for a gem
<AntelopeSalad>
ddd: if you are familiar with thor, the bar/baz methods just use 'run' with capture: true so it writes the output to stdout
<ddd>
antelopesalad I would wrap $stdout.readline and check for what you don't want, puts nil or something for those lines, then output what you do want
<AntelopeSalad>
run is just a normal thor command (that's why i pulled in Actions, i just removed it from this toy example)
<ddd>
antelopesalad yeah but you can trap stdout via $stdout
<ddd>
or via a logger
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<ddd>
YOUR script can define a Logger.new in conjunction and then do with it as you normally would
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<ddd>
hell you can get as granular as #readchar if you needed :)
<AntelopeSalad>
would i be doing this crazyness inside the bar and baz methods?
<AntelopeSalad>
since i basically want to strip out their instructions and write my own instead in qux
<ddd>
if you know how far in this info is (like down to the line) you could $stdout.seek
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<ddd>
hmm, you'd have to do it in qux for sure, I'd wrap bar and baz if you wanted to handle them individually
<AntelopeSalad>
if each of those scripts complete successfully the line count is the same every time you run it
<ddd>
then wrap, #seek, and puts
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<AntelopeSalad>
ok, so basically i just need to research the crap out of $stdout?
<ddd>
i'd even go so far as to begin/rescue/end if there's a high potential for errors. but also bear in mind that $stderr would have *that* particular info
<ddd>
yeah $std(in|out|err)
<AntelopeSalad>
i don't even know what a dollar sign method is in ruby haha
<AntelopeSalad>
maybe a global?
<ddd>
yeah
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<ddd>
those are all definitely global vars
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<ddd>
you can do a logger = Logger.new(STDOUT) (capturing stdout and wrapping it with Logger) and then work with logger instead
<ddd>
see ri Logger for more details
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<AntelopeSalad>
ok
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<AntelopeSalad>
thanks
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<ddd>
not a problem
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<ddd>
hopefully gave enough food for thought
<ddd>
\0~1~ \
<AntelopeSalad>
it's one of those situations where having both the previous and new instructions at once would be ridiculously confusing to the user
<ddd>
sorry, got bacon grease on the keys. had to wipe hehe
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<ddd>
yeah, i see *why* you're doing it. just there's many ways *to* do what you want
<ddd>
:)
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<ddd>
now, Logger is part of ruby core. log4r is another I've seen used heavily, so you might want to investigate that as well.
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<Chepra>
Hi! Can you recommend some toolkits / libraries for writing ruby cli applications?
<ddd>
ruby itself by default lends itself to cli
<shevy>
Chepra you won't need any really
<shevy>
Chepra input given to a .rb script is stored in ARGV
<AntelopeSalad>
there's always thor for that too hah
<ddd>
so anything in ruby core or stdlib should work perfectly fine. we were discussing thor earlier as well.
<platzhirsch>
ddd: I didn't like his second movie so much
<ddd>
ARGV and ARGF become your friends when writing CLI apps. Along with Logger and $std(in|out|err) as we were just discussing hehe
<dachi>
rvm
<dachi>
sorry
<ddd>
platzhirsch hehe I liked the first, and which ever it was where he and loki joined forces.
<dachi>
i was searching
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<Chepra>
shevy: Yeah, I am looking for simplify my life doing that
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<ddd>
i don't watch a whole lot of movies. I'm an opportunistic watcher :) meaning whever I find some time like just before bed and whatever Dish Network has on their PPV movies
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<platzhirsch>
I am more the procrastinator.
<shevy>
Chepra ok but what exactly do you need. I mean, there are tons of projects out there... ascii_table to do ascii tables, colour-related libraries... formatting helpers... and the whole stdlib as well... there is also highline for hidden password input... most cli projects won't need much really
<platzhirsch>
There was this article on Hacker News: "I code to procrastinate…"
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<pontiki>
for the time traveling rubyist?
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
pontiki: rotfl
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
mh guys I have to build a small cache for api requests, this cache is memory only. Should I use something as big as memcached/redis or such or a simple hash is enough?
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<centrx>
Fire-Dragon-DoL, memcache is not that big
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<centrx>
Fire-Dragon-DoL, the simple hash will not be persistent across requests/sessions/processes
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
centrx: let me read more about it
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
centrx: I don't need that type of cache
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
centrx: i just want to repeat the last call more or less or the last 3
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
but nothing more
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<centrx>
Fire-Dragon-DoL, It probably depends on your web server/framework but each call will probably get a new hash, not the cached hash
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<isomorphismes>
How do I make a bunch of methods and tie them together so they can be attached to new objects as I make them?
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<ddd>
check out writing a Module
<centrx>
isomorphismes, mixin module or class inheritance
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<isomorphismes>
thanks ddd thanks centrx
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
mhhh when to use class inheritance and when to use modules?
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
I usually ends up always with modules I suppose
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
to leave the class "free"
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<ddd>
use class inheritence when it makes sense. when all classes need the same methods, and its not worth creating an/a bunch of intermediate classes, modules are the better choice
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<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: yea reading around sounds like the right choice. Also may be not stupid but if you have to deal with "different" constructors inheritance is the way to go
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<ddd>
yeah. i believe ruby can do multiple method signatures can't it? (I've not gotten to the point where I've needed to attempt that
<ddd>
)
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<centrx>
ddd, Ruby does not support method overloading
<ddd>
ah
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<centrx>
ddd, Other techniques are used, like accepting a hash for arguments, or using alias_method/alias_method_chain
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<ddd>
wonder what the purpose of that design choice was. matz usually has a good reason for doing something a specific way. wonder what it was in this instance
<centrx>
I don't know, I would make two observations about it though
<ddd>
which are?
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<centrx>
Method overloading is something that is needed for languages that only support a fixed number of arguments. Ruby method arguments are very flexible.
<ddd>
due to the splat (*) i take it?
<kiba>
ddd: your nick remind me of a guild in an anime
<ddd>
hehe
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<ddd>
your nick reminded me of Yugioh
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
ddd: remembers me the debugger
<centrx>
Yes, exactly, and hashes as args
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<kiba>
D.D.D and Crusty the berserker!
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<ddd>
centrx makes sense on a fast mental jog-through
<kiba>
ddd: well, I adopted it from wolf rain
<ddd>
kiba heheh
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<kiba>
ddd: can you guess the anime?
<centrx>
And also, method overloading is very unexplicit in the caller. With alias_method, you make it explicit, like having "my_method" and "my_method_with_robots", truly they are different methods
<shevy>
your nicks remind me of SEX and VIOLENCE
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<shevy>
methods with robots are always nice to have
<ddd>
kiba no. Unless its Robotech or Star Blazers, I'm not up to snuff
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<ddd>
centrx makes sense. I know *of* method aliasing, but again, I think I've only run into it once before
<ddd>
alias_method old_method new_method or something like that
<tongcx>
hi guys, if i write a ruby file 'a.rb' without using module namespace, if I 'require ./a' in anothe ruby file, how do I access variables in a.rb from the other file?
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<shevy>
tongcx you can not access local variables that way
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
tongcx: unless they are globals you can't
<Fire-Dragon-DoL>
and you are not supposed to
<tongcx>
shevy: I see, thanks, is there difference between '::' and '.'?
<agent_white>
Goodmornin!
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<shevy>
tongcx barely any. The . is one character short though. :: is also usable only for top-scope reference, like: ::Foo
<jhass>
tongcx: while you can use :: to call methods, doing so is discouraged. :: is for accessing namespaced constants
<shevy>
use . whenever you can, otherwise use ::
<shevy>
:)
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<mib_mib>
hi guys - i have some invalid dates stored in mysql, i.e. 2012-02-00 - when i am retrieving results, and retrieve one of these like Post.find_by_sql('select * from posts') the query errors out with 'invalid date' - i assumed this column is trying to be parsed as a date somewhere - is there an easy way to 'catch' these results but keep the query going for the rest
<shevy>
the yaml examples have things like: YAML::dump()
<shevy>
many newcomers keep on using that :(
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<jhass>
mib_mib: #rubyonrails is better at AR questions
<tongcx>
shevy: i am wondering, when you 'require sinatra', they poured a lot of things like 'get, body' to global namespace, how do they do that?
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<tongcx>
shevy: thoses things are not prefixed with '$'
<shevy>
yeah
<ddd>
jhass err? .blah is the method access point. :: and . aren't the same things
<shevy>
tongcx probably private methods on class Object
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<kiba>
debugger is pysch?
<shevy>
tongcx when you see get, it is the method called get()
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<tongcx>
shevy: i c, cool
<kiba>
or is it psy?
<speckle>
what's an AR question, jhass?
<jhass>
speckle: activerecord
<ddd>
ActiveRecord
<shevy>
tongcx, you can however use it in traditional ways too, through subclassing, then you won't have to use the global get() version: http://www.sinatrarb.com/intro.html#Sinatra::Base%20-%20Middleware,%20Libraries,%20and%20Modular%20Apps
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<ddd>
AR is shorthand in the ruby/rails community for ActiveRecord
<tongcx>
shevy: thanks
<shevy>
I hated that get() was global in my apps until someone mentioned that I could subclass instead, since that day I <3 sinatra
<speckle>
Ah, thanks. I know ActiveRecord but didn't see the acronym before
<ddd>
like AR::B is shorthand for ActiveRecord::Base
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<shevy>
and ddd is a shortcut for devilish duck dumpster
<ddd>
devilish duck dynasty
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<shevy>
so noble :P
<shevy>
dignified
<shevy>
duck
<ddd>
or Devilishly Debonair Dude!
<shevy>
destroyer!!!
<shevy>
dude always brings the level down ...
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<ddd>
or Devilishly Debonair Deviant! :)
<shevy>
beer and dude go hand in hand together
<shevy>
I learned that from lebowski
<ddd>
since I'm a beer drinker I'm ok with that association
<tongcx>
shevy: in shell, can I do things like 'help(sth)' where 'sth' is a instance of some class?
<tongcx>
shevy: just like Python?
<agent_white>
shevy: You mean white russians ;D
<shevy>
tongcx you mean from i.e. bash?
<tongcx>
shevy: no, irb
<ddd>
ri Class
<shevy>
hmm
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<shevy>
you can enable ri in irb too so it should be possible
<tongcx>
in ruby shell
<shevy>
but I dont use ri so I dont know
<tongcx>
i see, thanks
<pontiki>
USE PRY!
<ddd>
works fine out the box
<shevy>
I grab useful docu externally, then store it locally in a way I can understand it
<shevy>
"This proxy class delegates to the drb infrastructure." Translation: "Apples and Bananas are best stored in a distributed fashion."
<ddd>
you are probably the wackiest dude I know hehe
<tongcx>
actually, 'help Array' seems works
<agent_white>
pontiki is right, pry is like irb if you riced it out, in the best way!
<ddd>
hmm, help doesn't work for me, but ri does (in irb)
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<platzhirsch>
jhass: yeah that is the new way of doing that right. I think I need to do it in addition without TracePoint
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<jhass>
ruby 2.0 way, yeah
<rainmanjam>
I'm on a Mac and my installed gems are not showing up when I do "gem list". On my other computer it works fine.
<platzhirsch>
jhass: It's a "puzzle" for a job application, maybe they expect that it works for earlier Ruby versions, too :)
<ddd>
or they could be expecting the applicant to point out that it *does not* work for older versions. Then they know you either know how to search well, or know your stuff :)
<platzhirsch>
Well you just have to do it differently
<platzhirsch>
I wull use banister's method_source gem
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<banister>
platzhirsch easiest to decorate the method probably
<pontiki>
rainmanjam: how did you install your gems on your mac?
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<banister>
platzhirsch a decorator that just updates a counter or sth
<platzhirsch>
banister: but I am confused on instance_method source.display is available without requiring 'method_source' ?
<platzhirsch>
yes, like that
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<banister>
platzhirsch cos you're using pry?
<banister>
pry uses method_source internally
<platzhirsch>
well, that was obvious… thanks
<banister>
:)
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<rainmanjam>
pontiki: gem install ***
<platzhirsch>
*** ? Wildcard for all gems with three character names?
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<pontiki>
no, i think that was a wildcard just for my benefit
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<platzhirsch>
I entered it and now gem installs the whole internet
<pontiki>
rainmanjam: are you using a ruby manager like rvm, rbenv, chruby, etc?
<pontiki>
lol
<pontiki>
SUCKAH
<rainmanjam>
pontiki: RVM
<pontiki>
rainmanjam: type 'rvm info' and post the output in pastie or gist, pls?
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<nfk>
i might have asked this before but within loops is it better to do if (foo) break end bar or if (foo) break else bar end?
<shevy>
wat
<centrx>
nfk, I usually do: break if foo
<nfk>
will that affect performance
<centrx>
nfk, It is a one liner
<centrx>
nfk, No effect on performance
<nfk>
no,i just did not want to \n a lot
<centrx>
empty lines have negligble no effect on performance :)
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<nfk>
well, in stupid languages like C it would would/could affect performance as using else branch hints the compiler that both won't happen at the same time while without else branch the compiler has to be trusted to realise on its own that when if branch is entered, the rest of the loop iteration is skipped
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<centrx>
nfk, That is some extreme optimization
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<nfk>
i really though you just write C/C++ with that in mind
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<centrx>
nfk, Have you heard of premature optimization?
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<nfk>
have you heard abut good practice?
<dachi>
hi nfk, centrx. do you know if pumactl is considered to be incomplete today?
<nfk>
a what?
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<dachi>
puma proccess monitor
<nfk>
never heard of that one, sorry
<centrx>
I know. In Ruby "simple straightforward code" is best practice, and then optimize further later, whereas in C the low-level tinkering is often necessary
<centrx>
dachi, I don't know about puma, sorry
<dachi>
thanks
<nfk>
centrx, i was just curious
<nfk>
in this case it does not of course matter much
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<centrx>
Using the one line if-statement is, I think, the best practice for Ruby
<centrx>
For example
<centrx>
def my_method
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<centrx>
return nil if robots.nil?
<centrx>
return nil unless sochi.present?
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<centrx>
It keeps the code very clear
<nfk>
i'm doing file operations and digesting so control structures for the governing logic are going to have negligible performance hit but that does not forbid one to wonder about ruby best practices, right
<centrx>
nfk, The performance cost of branching or checking values like nil? or even has_key? is very small compared to the rest of a program and the overhead of Ruby, interpreter, and garbage collector
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<centrx>
nfk, Modern CPUs will visit BOTH branches of the if statement, just because they can
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<centrx>
They will run the code ahead of time, for both foo == true and foo == false
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<platzhirsch>
"A::B#cookies".split(/[#:]/) => ["A", "", "B", "cookies"] any idea how to formulate a regex where I don't get en empty string here?
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<shevy>
good old regexes
<shevy>
they always drain my brain
<shevy>
platzhirsch would it be wrong to reject empty strings from your array?
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<platzhirsch>
shevy: no, I mean I can just post-process the array, but I think all I need is to write the regex in a way that it matches on :: and not just :
<nfk>
like using :: instead of :
<nfk>
?
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<nfk>
shevy, that just means you don't know PERL
<platzhirsch>
nfk: yeah but the result is the same
<nfk>
then again, neither do i
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<AntelopeSalad>
i'm getting crushed by syntax issues , how can i apply this answer so that i can pass in multiple options rather than just one? http://stackoverflow.com/a/14360552
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<AntelopeSalad>
check the shared_options line in the linked SO answer (line 2)
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<shevy>
nfk totally irrelevant, the brain processing I have to do with regexes is always significantly higher than for other code constructs.
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<platzhirsch>
so it's just /[#:]+/
<platzhirsch>
erm
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<shevy>
imagine if you could add complexity points in code elements. like a goto statement would cost +20 ... an if/else would cost +1 ... a regex probably ... if it is small, +8 perhaps, if it is long and complicated, +16
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<platzhirsch>
shevy: plus, regular expressions for too complicated patterns is guaranteed to fail somewhen
<shevy>
yeah, their cost seems to increase the longer and more complex the task they do
<platzhirsch>
Some days ago there was a blog post suggesting strongly against using Regular Expression when parsing code of your own programming language... I mean seriously, what the fuck... who would do that
<nfk>
shevy, since regex themselves are oneliners, they don't add complexity to the overall program
<shevy>
:\
<nfk>
but if you have to grok it, oh god
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<nfk>
i do not understand the regex i wrote myself a month later
<shevy>
if you want to be complicated, sure go add as many complex elements as you can
<nfk>
and be sure it took me days to get it working in the first place
<platzhirsch>
nfk: that's what doc is for? :P
<shevy>
I stay with brevity and simplicity
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<nfk>
shevy, basically if you know what it does, then it does not add complexity even if you do not know how it does it as long as you don't have to dive in
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<waxjar>
i found that most regexpes i have to use can be replaced by calls to String#split and String#include?
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<platzhirsch>
shevy: yeah man, Finite-state machine, stay golden pony-boy
<shevy>
nfk I know what it does, after all I wrote them in all my projects myself too. And it adds complexity every single time I use them
<nfk>
and i generally write them in a way that it's easy to understand what my regex do, sometimes i even add a comment on top but understanding how they do it, that's the mind raping part
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<shevy>
oh only sometimes
<shevy>
so you have undocumented regexes
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<shevy>
and when you see them some months later, you instantly know what they do
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<shevy>
and there be no bugs
<waxjar>
#end_with? and #start_with are also good replacements
<nfk>
when it's obvious that it you run a regex on message and get out sender_email then it's kinda moot to comment # this yanks out goat@garden.co.uk
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<nfk>
shevy, in fact, it won't even handle admin@com
<nfk>
and that's totally vaid
<shevy>
I never sent to admin@com
<platzhirsch>
me neither, so how is this related to solving the problem
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<nfk>
there's even a goddamn wikipedia article on email address validation
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<shevy>
we should test the perl module on that
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<nfk>
platzhirsch, note that you@xxx is not valid
<nfk>
probably
<pontiki>
Perl <<< Brainfuck
<nfk>
i think you meant >>>
<nfk>
or maybe =>
<platzhirsch>
nfk: totally knew that
<pontiki>
much, much worse
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<AlexRussia>
лол
<waxjar>
just check if there's an @ and no whitespace, then send your email :p
<platzhirsch>
I used to be a warrior, but then I took an arrow operator to the knee
<AlexRussia>
Perl <<< Brainfuck like me
<nfk>
waxjar, what about %20
<AlexRussia>
%20
<waxjar>
it's not whitespace, is it
<AlexRussia>
lol
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<nfk>
waxjar, also you may not send to address starting with 1 or _, iirc
<platzhirsch>
btw. I dropped the idea to parse the method signature with a regular expression, because I need to test if there is :: in separately anyway
<pontiki>
why do people actually care? it's not as if matching a string is any guarantee if it's a real email address?
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<shevy>
pontiki the longer you stare at a problem, the more complicated it can become!
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<pontiki>
it's like the opposite of those magic pictures, shevy
<platzhirsch>
pontiki: It's really just to keep people busy
<avril14th>
Hello, is it possible to use define_method to define methods that use a block?
<nfk>
shevy, a truly compliant email address parser would probably take a few pages of code in any language
<shevy>
yes avril14th
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<platzhirsch>
Like described here http://tommorris.org/posts/8786 How many software developers would it take to change a lightbulb?
<pontiki>
a%20spaced%20name@example.com is actually a valid email address
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<avril14th>
shevy: any special way to write that?
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<pontiki>
it doesn't work the way you think
<avril14th>
i did define_method do |arg, arg, &block|
<pontiki>
but it's valid
<avril14th>
but when i give a block, block_given returns false
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<shevy>
avril14th hmm... define_method(:bla) {|i = 'this is avril14th rocking his house!'|; puts e; }
<shevy>
wow
<shevy>
I just had ruby die on m
<shevy>
[FATAL] failed to allocate memory
<nfk>
as for why, basically you want to do one thing, then another since both are sensible to make sure users don't commit garbage and maybe you even want to parse the input in some specific way and then you go "handling that case would be good too" and the next evening you are wondering why you even exist
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<waxjar>
avril14th: you can instead check if block.nil? i think
<pontiki>
thus endeth the yak shave
<avril14th>
shevy: that's plain parameter, what about define_method |i, &block|, that works?
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* ddd
hands pontiki a freshly sharpened barber blade
<shevy>
avril14th hmm
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<avril14th>
shevy: so you mean block.nil? should replace block_given? when used in define_method?
<shevy>
avril14th dont think I tried that before
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<platzhirsch>
$ gem install hangover-cure
<shevy>
I did not say anything about block.nil? avril14th
* pontiki
carefully sheathes it for next yak shave session
<DaniG2k>
ruby's the only worthwile language these days
<DaniG2k>
slow, but awesome
<DaniG2k>
ah
<DaniG2k>
my condolences
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<platzhirsch>
Everyone I told that I am considering UK as a work place looked at me like I am crazy
<DaniG2k>
weather is probably better in Berlin
<DaniG2k>
but I wasn't a bit fan overall
<platzhirsch>
and rents, and cost of living
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<DaniG2k>
right
<DaniG2k>
its super expensive here
<DaniG2k>
salary is also good but
<DaniG2k>
it all goes with the rent
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<platzhirsch>
Yesterday I saw a job position for London, 18k Pound annual
<DaniG2k>
you can't live with that
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<DaniG2k>
too little
<DaniG2k>
i struggled with 27k back in the day
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<platzhirsch>
DaniG2k: of course it was a New Grad position, but that's pretty much a rip off. Though there were also ones with 45-55k
<DaniG2k>
programmers should make around 50-60k, especially with a masters or Phd
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<platzhirsch>
good to know
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<platzhirsch>
and with this I can probably rent a 2 bedroom apartment at King's Cross
<DaniG2k>
hmm
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<DaniG2k>
maybe
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<DaniG2k>
its expensive there
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<platzhirsch>
just kidding, I don't think that's possible
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<DaniG2k>
you wouldnt want to live at king's cross anyway
<DaniG2k>
its not a nice neighborhood
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<platzhirsch>
I stayed there for three days in a super cheap hotel, that was very disgusting
<DaniG2k>
hm
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<platzhirsch>
It was okay for a short trip, was only for sleeping anyway :)
<DaniG2k>
platzhirsch: you went to london to sleep?
<platzhirsch>
lol, why did I want to parse "A::B#cookies" in the first place? I only need to extract the methods, of course Kernel.get_const recognizes modules including class
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<platzhirsch>
DaniG2k: the other way around
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<LLKCKfan>
v
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<LLKCKfan>
v
<LLKCKfan>
Is there any natural ways to relieve pain without using herbs or weed? No drugs'
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<shevy>
LLKCKfan sex
<LLKCKfan>
no
<platzhirsch>
banister: oh darn, method_source does not work for dynamically declared code, does it?
<centrx>
LLKCKfan, Vision quest
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<shevy>
LLKCKfan you are lucky btw, some guy here wrote about using needles
<banister>
platzhirsch depends how u dynamically declare it bb
<banister>
platzhirsch if you use define_method, it should work fine
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<banister>
if you use a string eval, then it struggles
<platzhirsch>
just in a pry session, have to see if it works with -e ruby option
<banister>
platzhirsch it'll work in a pry session
<banister>
but not outside a pry session, pry does special things to grab that code
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<platzhirsch>
banister: oh ok, because I get MethodSource::SourceNotFoundError: Could not load source for : No such file or directory @ rb_sysopen - (pry)
<banister>
platzhirsch it completely depends on how u're dynamically defining the method
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<platzhirsch>
alright
<banister>
how r u doing it
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<platzhirsch>
banister: just wrote module A; class B; def cookies; puts 5; end; end; end and then Kernel.const_get('A::B').instance_method('cookies').source
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<banister>
platzhirsch what's dynamic about that? :)
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<platzhirsch>
banister: that I entered it in a pry session
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<banister>
platzhirsch ok but type this in pry: show-source A::B#cookies
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<banister>
(it'll extact out te whole expression though, not just the method)
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<platzhirsch>
Oh my, disconnect
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<platzhirsch>
well, in any case. For my original problem to inject a counter incrementer, I think I don't need to actually retrieve the source code, it should be sufficient to redefine the method with a call to itself
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<platzhirsch>
alias to the rescue
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<nfk>
return true if da==db
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<nfk>
false
<nfk>
why is that code doing something weird?
<nfk>
unless return does something special it should work
<nfk>
or maybe i should use return 0?
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<platzhirsch>
nfk: ? Why no da == db
<nfk>
eh?
<platzhirsch>
single line, no return
<platzhirsch>
just da == db at the end
<nfk>
oh
<nfk>
i see
<nfk>
stupid of me
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<nfk>
and i guess i should have done return(true), es?
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<nfk>
*yes
<platzhirsch>
no
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<platzhirsch>
no idea why it does not work as expected for you
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<platzhirsch>
I mean return(true) is also valid, but uncommon to you parenthesis there
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<AntelopeSalad>
newsflash: blocks are the best thing ever created
<platzhirsch>
so Switzerland is against immigration
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<shevy>
yeah
<shevy>
too many german invaders
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<platzhirsch>
:o)
<sk4l>
hallo leute, was sagen sie über Deutschland? :D
<platzhirsch>
sk4l: I don't know, but the ü from ueber is not displayed correctly and that really pisses me off
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<sk4l>
me too, it's blitzkrieg time then?
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<platzhirsch>
jawohl
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<nfk>
aw, yeah, it works
<nfk>
debugging wasn't nice
<nfk>
hell, my vision is blurring and doubling and i feel dizzy
<nfk>
but it works
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<nfk>
if you guys care, i could even pastebin the code
<nfk>
as long as you promise not to derp about my messy coding style
<nfk>
then again, i d will nee this
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<platzhirsch>
nfk: go ahead, but gist it
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<nfk>
right, was so dizzy i would have forgotten that
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<nfk>
oh lovely, github is laggin my firefox
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<centrx>
Firefox is lagging my github!
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<platzhirsch>
Kill the fox
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<nfk>
alreayd did that a minute ago
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<nfk>
but as if the second attempt was any better
<nfk>
lagging again
<nfk>
and load average is merely 9.44, 8.78, 8.54
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<niggler>
hello #ruby! I'm trying to use a module Roo and i encounter the error uninitialized constant Class::URI (NameError). I suspect this is probably an error with my configuration. Any thoughts?
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<pipecloud>
niggler: Is that from a gem called roo?
<niggler>
pipecloud: turns out the issue was that roo required another gem called spreadsheet
<nfk>
oh fuck, my code is dangerous
<niggler>
unfortunately, the error message didn't make that clear lol
<pipecloud>
niggler: It's not a gem actually.
<nfk>
just a bit of fortune saved me from data loss
<pipecloud>
It's just a separate require in the gem.
<pipecloud>
niggler: It should already be required in the gem, are you hacking on the gem directly or something?
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<niggler>
pipecloud: no I just tried to follow the steps in the readme
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<niggler>
sudo gem install roo
<niggler>
then follow the commands in the readme
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<pipecloud>
niggler: sudo?
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<niggler>
run as root
<pipecloud>
my condolences.
<niggler>
lol i don't like developing as the root user
<pipecloud>
So don't! :D
<nfk>
who would do that?
<niggler>
right, which is why sudo was used
* nfk
readies the bat
<pipecloud>
niggler: What do you mean?
<niggler>
the ruby gems directory
<niggler>
on osx
<pipecloud>
I just install gems as my user.
<pipecloud>
niggler: Have you heard of ruby-install and chruby?
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<niggler>
/Library/Ruby/Gems/2.0.0 is owned by root
<pipecloud>
The OSX ruby is already out of date.
<pipecloud>
niggler: And?
<niggler>
I'm relatively new to ruby lol
<pipecloud>
niggler: Well, let me help you pal!
<pipecloud>
niggler: Do you use homebrew or shall we set up ruby-install other ways?
<niggler>
do any OSX things depend on ruby?
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<niggler>
actually brew wouldn't affect that
<pipecloud>
niggler: I'm not sure, but it doesn't really matter here, luckily enough.
<niggler>
I've had some fun experiences in the past with macports
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<niggler>
ok brew install ruby is going
<dachi>
people, I used $ rvm wrapper my_app --no-links unicorn_rails snippet from rvm site, but could not use it with "--no-links" and used without it, there was a notice that now --no-links creates links. I set up working environment. But am I in trouble that I did not use "--no-links"? What's that? I wanted to have aliased directory of my rvm@gemset that I could use in a bash script
<pipecloud>
I wouldn't use brew install ruby
<niggler>
great :/
<niggler>
ok what would you use lol
<pipecloud>
niggler: I'd use homebrew to install ruby-install so you have a single place to upgrade packages (damn OS X and their lame no real system package manager)
<pipecloud>
niggler: brew info ruby-install
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<AntelopeSalad>
style question: would you place attr_* calls before include/extend or after?
<pipecloud>
niggler: Nothing neat there, so brew install ruby-install
<pipecloud>
AntelopeSalad: I put them after.
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<AntelopeSalad>
ok
<niggler>
so does gem work with ruby-install or do I need to use a different command
<pipecloud>
niggler: Patience!
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<pipecloud>
niggler: Do you mind if I query you, sir?
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<havenwood>
niggler: Modern Rubies come with RubyGems (including `gem`) out of the box. Installing RubyGems separately died with 1.8. ;)
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<txomon>
hi, just a quick question. I have developed in C, Java and Python, and I am interested in contributing to gitlab-ci... So I am now starting with ruby. I have made the ruby tutorials, and I have now the basics of the language
<txomon>
is there any recommendation now?
<txomon>
I have seen that there are tons of Gemfiles in the project (gitlab-ci)
<txomon>
and other apps seem to be the same
<txomon>
Is there any standard on which gem to use? They all seem to use the same
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<havenwood>
niggler: (ruby-install does automate that for 1.8 though, just not needed for modern rubies)
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<centrx>
txomon, I see only one Gemfile in the gitlab-ci project?
<txomon>
yeah sorry, I said wrong. Tons of gems, not tons of Gemfiles ;)
<havenwood>
txomon: There are some nice resources like The Ruby Toolbox to look for gems. People choose popular and maintained gems so you see the same crowd cycle through a lot of Gemfiles.
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<txomon>
I suppose it's something like django on web python, that many much of the people uses it...
<GinoMan>
I have a sacred philosophical question..... is it better to use "obj == nil" or "obj.nil?" and why?
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<havenwood>
garndt: The latter. Simpler is better. The former is a method and an argument, the latter is simply a method.
<havenwood>
garndt: oops, mistell, sorry bout that
<havenwood>
GinoMan: ^
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<RubyTitmouse>
GinoMan: obj.nil? is better because of what havenwood said
<havenwood>
GinoMan: obj.==(nil) versus obj.nil?
<platzhirsch>
How many languages have a method like obj.nil? … it's there so developers can use it and become happy about its existence
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<platzhirsch>
It induces happiness
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<GinoMan>
I was thinking that as well. I was also thinking along the lines of it's easy to miss the second equals and accidentally assign your object to nil after your supposed test.
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<RubyTitmouse>
== also introduces precedence into your statement which is a whole additional layer of complexity to manage
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<RubyTitmouse>
No, you can always have a typo, and you always have to catch that somehow
<platzhirsch>
GinoMan: There is another perspective on this, it depends on what you are doing with the obj. You could you .to_s, .to_i, to_a, etc. to 'cast' it to the typed equivalent of null
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<RubyTitmouse>
Presumably testing will catch the typo
<GinoMan>
Good point RubyTitmouse..... wow.... I think I almost peed myself saying that when my mind read it aloud in my head.
<txomon>
why should I use rubinius?
<txomon>
or why not..
<RubyTitmouse>
lol
<waxjar>
you should use rubinius if you want to run threads in parallel and dont want to use C extensions
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<txomon>
oh ok
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<RubyTitmouse>
txomon: Matz' Ruby is the obvious default, I would say you should have a reason to use something else
<waxjar>
eh, do want to use C extensions, that should be
<txomon>
waxjar, humm ok, I thought the C stuff was because it made harder to run concurrent threads...
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<RubyTitmouse>
gems aren't even labeled as which are C extensions, so more like, "do you want to be able to use standard Ruby gems?"
<RubyTitmouse>
And the C API is a basic expected part of Ruby
<havenwood>
You can use C-exts with rbx but they release the GIL so they have to be thread safe C-exts.
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<RubyTitmouse>
There are other good interpreters for pure Ruby code, but none of them is usable as a full replacement
<joelteon>
so rake isn't really a make replacement, is it? it just does dependency resolution
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<waxjar>
txomon: the reason i mentioned C extensions is because JRuby also allows you to run threads in parellel, but you can't use C extensions with JRuby
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<RubyTitmouse>
rake does not replace make, in fact rake is often involved in the process of generating Makefiles
<waxjar>
txomon: note that there is a difference between concurrency and parellelism
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<joelteon>
ok, that makes sense
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<txomon>
waxjar, yeah, I noticed it and was going to ask about it
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<txomon>
thanks for the info
<platzhirsch>
waxjar: That's why I thought at least Rubinius supports C extensions
<RubyTitmouse>
rake is just a make-like thingy that mostly covers the problem space of "non-compiler uses of make"
<AlexRussia>
who here used kdevelop?
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<waxjar>
platzhirsch: i believe so, yeah
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<joelteon>
well, it's a tool with built-in dependency resolution
<platzhirsch>
waxjar: it has its own C-API
<havenwood>
txomon: like waxjar mentioned JRuby runs parallel threads well and the future is bright with ridiculously fast JRuby 9k coming this year.
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<platzhirsch>
so you need to migrate
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<RubyTitmouse>
no the dependency resolution should be coming from bundler and the Gemfile, except when building gems when it comes from the gemspec
<txomon>
havenwood, so jruby 9k is good also in concurrency?
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<txomon>
s/good also/also good/
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<waxjar>
platzhirsch: really? i thought it was a drop-in replacements. i never really used it, tho.
<platzhirsch>
JVM *raises his fist*
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<RubyTitmouse>
MRI is great at concurrency, it is just optimized for people using unix-style fork and IPC
<pontiki>
just wait until they come out with the JRuby 9000 turbo model. *POWER*
<havenwood>
txomon: That's just what they're codenaming the upcoming JRuby 2.0 (it is 1.7 right now).
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<GinoMan>
platzhirsch: hey, does JRuby have a C interface to use C/C++/Obj-C code?
<RubyTitmouse>
The others get all excited over threads
<txomon>
oh ok
<loc22>
Hi guys! Im started learning TDD with rspec and I need your opinion. Do I create my app with testing and in the and I add devise and cancan for authentication and authorization, or Do I add them frist?
<havenwood>
txomon: But yeah, great multithreaded performance, but no forking like MRI. Different model of how to do concurrency.
<platzhirsch>
GinoMan: It had, but not anymore
<havenwood>
parallelism*
<platzhirsch>
they dropped the support
<txomon>
well, I wonder the day will have to take that much care on parallelism...
<bnagy>
platzhirsch: eh?
<havenwood>
GinoMan: They use FFI.
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<platzhirsch>
bnagy: wrong?
<GinoMan>
FFI?
<bnagy>
FFI is still supported
<platzhirsch>
ok
<bnagy>
there was a tantrum that lasted for about 3 weeks
<RubyTitmouse>
FFI is like Perl XS, but for any language
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<txomon>
btw, I love bundler, it makes quite simple to know the dependencies, even greater than pypi (which is wonderful too)
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<RubyTitmouse>
An extra C-like language to learn so you can glue your C to a third language
<bnagy>
jruby FFI and MRI FFI have a few very small but irritating differences
<pontiki>
loc22: those are rather orthogonal questions
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<bnagy>
but you can write interpreter independent FFI code to wrap any C lib
<RubyTitmouse>
With MRI you can write the glue easily in C
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<txomon>
on my experience on python, I would say that using C in a language should at leas by 75% easy as using the language itself
<txomon>
if not, then extensions are just a pain
<GinoMan>
oh. that was the other thing I wanted to ask..... Is there a case where 'obj == nil' would choke?
<GinoMan>
but obj.nil? wouldn't?
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<txomon>
GinoMan, that I know, it's the same, but the first one (the good one) is really optimized
<havenwood>
GinoMan: Like RubyTitmouse pointed out, if there was a precedence issue.
<RubyTitmouse>
if you say (obj==nil) that should always be fine, except you do still have to see the parens, mentally note where they match, etc
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<waxjar>
obj.nil? ftw
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<havenwood>
Hehe, write Ruby is Lisp style. PARENS ALL THE THINGS \o/
<centrx>
GinoMan, If a class overrode == in a broken manner, it might not work as expected
<GinoMan>
makes sense
<pipecloud>
havenwood: Expressions for dayz
<waxjar>
that same class could also overwrite #nil? though
<pipecloud>
waxjar: Why would you ask an object if it's nil?
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<pipecloud>
Why not just obj. Let it's truthiness be your guide!
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<centrx>
waxjar, Right, but it is much more likely someone would overwrite == and not account for nil properly than someone would overwrite nil? and not account for nil properly
<waxjar>
i find obj.nil? to be clearer
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<RubyTitmouse>
>> class Lazyfoo;end ; Lazyfoo.nil? # are we there yet?
<centrx>
pipecloud, So that it does not recalculate. If false is an expected result of the method's calculation, it would recalculate memo each time the outcome is false
<AlexRussia>
pipecloud: DRUGS!
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<AlexRussia>
;)
<RubyTitmouse>
nil and false are both there for reasons
<pipecloud>
centrx: So it's just that you want to memoize false because @memo ||= isn't a good idea?
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<centrx>
pipecloud, If the calculation is more than one line you use return at the beginning
<RubyTitmouse>
I know that seems really obvious, but bear with me... there are some here who claim to not know what nil is for
<niggler>
any good resources for learning ruby?
<bnagy>
AlexRussia: where did you think the get method would come from?
<centrx>
pipecloud, @memo ||= is nice if the method is a one-liner
<pipecloud>
centrx: It's nice regardless.
<centrx>
Sometimes it is mean
<pipecloud>
niggler: I like books, what do you prefer?
<AlexRussia>
bnagy: emmm, sinatra
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<waxjar>
does @memo ||= distinguish between nil and false?
<bnagy>
AlexRussia: might want to mention that :) Because the obvious answer as to why it doesn't work is obvious
<pipecloud>
I'm not really into the cowboy brogrammer style from zedas.
<AlexRussia>
bnagy: emm, and where problem?
<pipecloud>
niggler: I love metaprogramming ruby for the first half of the book when learning ruby. The first half is all about ruby ruby object model.
<RubyTitmouse>
"cowboy" you're onto something. brogrammer? You just wanted to say "bro."
<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse: bro
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<pipecloud>
niggler: The second half delves into the darker arts.
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<centrx>
waxjar, It doesn't, you are right that is another use case for return unless nil
<RubyTitmouse>
Learn Code the Hard Way is tried and true methodology
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<RubyTitmouse>
it is how they were trying to teach when I started
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<AlexRussia>
bnagy: me newbie :P
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<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse: Learning it The Hard Way is tried and works.
<RubyTitmouse>
I'm not sure it is the really the hard way
<RubyTitmouse>
but it is a better name than Learn Code the Old Way
<pipecloud>
It's just not my style.
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<pipecloud>
It's perfectly respectable, I just don't hold the same views as the author and his writing style bothers the shit out of me.
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<centrx>
I heard he smells funny too
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<havenwood>
I worry about any Ruby tutorial that uses for loops to iterate. Often not idiomatic Ruby.
<bnagy>
it's definitely not idiomatic ruby
<bnagy>
especially the later examples
<bnagy>
but the first dozen or so exercises are good for people that know absolutely nothing
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<AlexRussia>
omfc, update ruby with repo delete my gems...
<bnagy>
cause I never know where else to send people for that
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<bnagy>
even learn to program can confuse people IME
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<pipecloud>
IME?
<pipecloud>
experience?
<bnagy>
yeah
<centrx>
In My Experience
<centrx>
Hard to teach someone programming who does not know * is multiplication
<pipecloud>
bnagy: I bet if you were to whip the student until they got it, it'd work just fine. But this isn't a sweatshop.
<AlexRussia>
oh, problem in update...
<pipecloud>
centrx: They never used a calculator before?
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* pipecloud
imagines centrx goes back in time before computers and tries to teach people programming
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<centrx>
I live in the 1800s
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<centrx>
It is difficult living here
<bnagy>
can you get me some ivory?
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<bnagy>
and ambergris
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<centrx>
I am only able to send electronic messages into the future
<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse: Some people I know agree with a lot of his opinions.
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<platzhirsch>
I mean, if method_added is defined on class X then it will always be executed when a method is added to X, but how can I make this definition work on all classes
<pipecloud>
He's also a super nice guy to chat with on IRC and meet in person.
<platzhirsch>
I thought class Class; def method_added(... would do that, but it doesn't
<RubyTitmouse>
as long as you cherry pick individual opinions, sure, he has many that are agreeable
<waxjar>
platzhirsch: define it on Object, maybe
<RubyTitmouse>
He's lots of fun on IRC, I remember he spent a full 30 minutes explaining that I'm a troll for saying it is almost certainly mongrel's fault if apache fcgi users are getting random 500 errors, on account of apache fcgi having had a decade of heavy production use already
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<RubyTitmouse>
it took over a month for mongrel to get fixed because of finger-pointing at apache! lolol I miss Zed, truly and honestly, he is great entertainment
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<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse: He's still around.
<pipecloud>
Mostly he talks about guitars.
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<RubyTitmouse>
I doubt I'm in those places ;) I think he gave up on Ruby a few minutes before his "rails is a ghetto" post
<platzhirsch>
waxjar: yeah, not working either. You use set_trace_func is this case, but I am not allowed to use it
<pipecloud>
RubyTitmouse: I don't think it gets special consideration from him.
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<pipecloud>
But you'd imagine that he'd have a fucking fit about python's weak lamdas.
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<RubyTitmouse>
The considerations he gave were certainly Special
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<waxjar>
platzhirsch: are you sure you're defining it as a class method? it works over here
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<platzhirsch>
waxjar: class Object; def self.method_added ?
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<waxjar>
yeah
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<platzhirsch>
waxjar: okay yeah maybe, though I need it for modules, too
<pipecloud>
waxjar: I'd use a module that you mix into Object so that it's pretty clear where the hook definition came from.
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<platzhirsch>
waxjar: oh, my problem was somewhere else I had still the hook_in method call, accessing a constant that did not exist yet, my bad
<platzhirsch>
"If you think GC is your problem, you're wrong. Your problem is allocation. Garbage isn't the disease...it's a symptom."
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<platzhirsch>
If this tweet wouldn't look so ugly I would retweet it