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<Oog>
im doing fork block and want to monitor in the parent the status of the forked process to see if it has exited. how can i do this? I see Process::Status but that seems to only work with the last fork or osmething?
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<Oog>
f = fork my_block f.exited? taht work?
<benzrf>
pry
<benzrf>
oops
<benzrf>
not bash
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<benzrf>
Oog: the return value of fork should be the child pid in the original
<benzrf>
and nil in the child
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<Oog>
indeed it is how do i heck the status of a pid
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<benzrf>
hm?
<benzrf>
oh i see
<bnagy>
Process ?
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<Oog>
looks like I can do wait() and it will wait for any child to exit
<Oog>
thats actually what i want to do
<Oog>
is monitory my chidlren
<Oog>
and if anye xit restart them
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<benzrf>
##programming
<benzrf>
oops
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<dachin>
join sailsjs
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<dachin>
sorry
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<sevenseacat>
is Nilium around right now?
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<Nilium>
Yes.
<Nilium>
Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
<sevenseacat>
well I'm just going to ask what on earth you updated in your ST2 Nil theme today
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<Nilium>
Well there's a commit log..
<Radcircle>
is there any way to pick a random value out of an array? as in, if you get one output, how do you prevent it from repeating the last output?
<Nilium>
If you prevent it from repeating the last output, isn't that not random?
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<Nilium>
sevenseacat: The short answer is that I changed the XML/HTML colors.
<Nilium>
For Big Duo, anyway.
<Nilium>
Every other color scheme is the same because I don't use them.
<sevenseacat>
okay my problem is unrelated then
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<sevenseacat>
it updated and its just... gone
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<bnagy>
Radcircle: you can sort randomly then pop, for example
<benzrf>
Radcircle: use sample
<benzrf>
Radcircle: oh i see
<benzrf>
Radcircle: yeah what bnagy said
<Radcircle>
thank you
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<benzrf>
yep
<Nilium>
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/31892/Screenshots/ufke.png ⇐ XML used to be just purple, now it looks like this (ignore the shite support for XML in Sublime and my inconsistent placement of attributes).
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<benzrf>
that looks purple to me
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<bnagy>
benzrf: no you're right, sample(n) does the same if you need less than the whole array
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<Nilium>
It's less purple.
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<benzrf>
bnagy: it doesn't remove the element though
<bnagy>
no, but it won't repeat
<benzrf>
Radcircle: do you want to never get the element chosen again?
<Radcircle>
not for the next "cycle"
<Radcircle>
if that makes sense.
<Radcircle>
quotes = [:bread, :butter, :cow, :goat].sample.pop(1) is that looking good?
<benzrf>
Radcircle: no, don't use sample
<Radcircle>
forgive me if i suck, first day with rails
<bnagy>
>> [1,2,3,4].sample(4).sort == [1,2,3,4]
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<benzrf>
sample picks a random element but doesn't change anything
<benzrf>
Radcircle: if you want a random ordering, just scramble the array
<bnagy>
hm. Well 'true'. eval-in still broken huh?
<benzrf>
*shuffle
<benzrf>
dammit charliesome
<Radcircle>
so what method should i use instead of sample?
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<sevenseacat>
hooray, i uninstalled it and reinstalled it a couple times and now it works o.O
<benzrf>
Radcircle: you want a random ordering, right?
<sevenseacat>
sorry to bother you Nilium >_>
<shevy>
.shuffle[0]
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<Nilium>
No problem.
<Radcircle>
yes sir
<benzrf>
shuffle
<bnagy>
shuffle is expensive if you want less samples than the length of the array
<Radcircle>
so shuffle.pop(1) ?
<benzrf>
wait
<benzrf>
Radcircle: are you going to consume the whole array?
<bnagy>
just pop, only pop(n) for n > 1
<shevy>
I dont think you need the argument to pop
<Radcircle>
i'm not sure what that means :(
<Radcircle>
i just want no repeats, but random cycling
<Radcircle>
if that makes sense
<benzrf>
Radcircle: ohhhh ok
<benzrf>
i see what you are saying
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<bnagy>
well it's not a cycle if you want no repeats
<benzrf>
is this some kind of music player ;p
<bnagy>
like, it stops at ary.size
<Radcircle>
i'm just trying something practical to learn ruby/rails
<Radcircle>
so i figured cycling words was a good start
<benzrf>
i would probably handle this
<benzrf>
like so
<benzrf>
words = %w{this that the other}
<benzrf>
last = ""
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<benzrf>
and then
<benzrf>
last = words.shuffle.pop
<benzrf>
reply with last
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<benzrf>
next time
<benzrf>
words << last
<benzrf>
last = words.shuffle.pop
<benzrf>
etc
<bnagy>
o_0
<Radcircle>
okay
<Radcircle>
i will give that a try..thank you!
<benzrf>
oh wait shuffling is unnecessary
<bnagy>
no, that is amazingly wrongh
<benzrf>
you just need to pick & pop a random element
<Radcircle>
:\
<benzrf>
bnagy: hmm?
<bnagy>
if you're just going to put it back just use sample
<benzrf>
oh crap
<benzrf>
put the << AFTER you get the new one
<benzrf>
derp
<benzrf>
but then you'd have to toggle lasts or something, w/e
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<benzrf>
ok how about this:
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<bnagy>
just stop
<benzrf>
:(
<bnagy>
you're making my head hurt
<Radcircle>
:{
<Radcircle>
its okay
<Radcircle>
i guess i can live with sample
<Radcircle>
thanks anyways
<benzrf>
hold on try this
<benzrf>
while true
<benzrf>
cur = words.shuffle!.pop
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<benzrf>
words << last
<benzrf>
reply cur
<benzrf>
last = cur
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<benzrf>
end
<benzrf>
only modify the shuffle to sample and pop or something
<bnagy>
:E
<benzrf>
bnagy: how else would you do it
<bnagy>
how can you even fit so much wrong in so few lines?
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<benzrf>
well fu
<benzrf>
how else do you propose doing it
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<benzrf>
please, enlighten me
<bnagy>
first up, never while true
<benzrf>
pfft
<bnagy>
use loop do, it's what it's for
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<benzrf>
yes, but that creates a new scope
<bnagy>
second, you don't need an intermediate var
<benzrf>
don't i?
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<bnagy>
if you just want to spit one random word just words.shuffle.each
<benzrf>
bnagy: he wants it continuous
<benzrf>
but without repeats
<benzrf>
oh wait that is true
<bnagy>
that is not possible
<benzrf>
repeats in a row
<bnagy>
like after the end of the array you will have repeats
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<benzrf>
so abcbabcbabc is ok
<benzrf>
but no bb
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<bnagy>
sure, so loop words.shuffle.each
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<benzrf>
yeah that is true
<benzrf>
but my solution is perfectly fine for that way of doing it
<benzrf>
:P
<benzrf>
loop do creates a new scope doesn't it?
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<benzrf>
you cannot assign to the outside world from within a block?
<benzrf>
wait wtf
<toastynerd>
benzrf: you can if it's an instance variable
<benzrf>
procs don't shadow?
<benzrf>
yeah
<benzrf>
but lvars
<bnagy>
benzrf: it's locally bound
<bnagy>
no eval-in but irb a=3; loop do; a+=1; break if a > 5; end; a
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<benzrf>
:E
<benzrf>
welp
<benzrf>
i couldve SWORN procs just shadow, not assign
<benzrf>
it demonstrates that block params do not override existing variables
<benzrf>
and my memory generalized that to block assignment entirely
<benzrf>
>_>
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<Radcircle>
is there a list of methods somewhere? like .upcase or .sample or .downcase
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<bnagy>
ruby-doc.org or a local rdoc tool like ri
<shevy>
Radcircle p String.methods
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<bnagy>
they're arranged by module
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<benzrf>
Radcircle: the ruby docs
<benzrf>
bnagy: i insist that my solution requires an intermediate var though
<benzrf>
they are on the net
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<benzrf>
ri doesnt show me built in methods
<benzrf>
?
<shevy>
please remove ri
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<shevy>
ri String#bla I think?
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<benzrf>
ri sux
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<bnagy>
benzrf: while still pointing out that the whole approach is wrong, you could just rotate n times and return the last elem, for example
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<bnagy>
no intermediate ar
<bnagy>
*var
<benzrf>
hmm, true
<benzrf>
sorry for using what came up off the top of my head
<benzrf>
>_<
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<bnagy>
also, it's buggy isn't it? You only ensure no repeats in a row
<benzrf>
yes, so?
<benzrf>
that's what he wanted..
<benzrf>
specifically
<bnagy>
well I thought it was no repeats in n elems where n is the size of the array
<benzrf>
ah
<benzrf>
well I parsed it as no repeats in a row
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<bnagy>
yeah, re-reading you might be right
<benzrf>
and my thoughts went like 'ok remove it to prevent a repeat... need to hold onto it... put that in a var... add it again later... oh wait i need a temp var' -> my solution
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<bnagy>
in that case I agree with the temp var, but not with altering the array, just use an infinite loop of sample with a last var
<benzrf>
hmm, ok
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<bnagy>
unless the array has dups
<benzrf>
i was thinking it was simpler to remove it than to add a subloop for checking
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<bnagy>
shuffling for every elem is hellishly expensive
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<benzrf>
yeah
<benzrf>
that was why i said to change it to popping
<benzrf>
;p
<benzrf>
*sample/pop
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<benzrf>
words.pop(rand words.length) or something
<benzrf>
is there a samplepop
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<Radcircle>
def US_time
<Radcircle>
Time.now.in_time_zone("Eastern Time (US & Canada)")
<Radcircle>
end
<Radcircle>
how can i modify the output of eastern time to something more readable? like 7:30 PM
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<bnagy>
try strftime
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<firewater5>
If you multiply yield by a number, shouldn't the yield run that many times?
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<firewater5>
I know if you write yield 4 times, it will run four times for example.
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<firewater5>
But, how can you do that with just a multiplyer?
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<firewater5>
Anyone?
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<kiba>
hey guys
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<benzrf>
sup kiba
<benzrf>
hi firewater5
<benzrf>
hows it goin
* kiba
is slowly working on his survival analysis of gems
<firewater5>
benzrf: Good how are you doing?
<benzrf>
nb
<kiba>
I need to speed up the process and finish the god damn project
<firewater5>
I solved that time thing just now.
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<benzrf>
nice
<firewater5>
I figured out what I was doing wrong yesterday, I was subtracting the wrong times.
<firewater5>
I had to flip them around.
<firewater5>
It was giving me negative results.
<benzrf>
ah
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<firewater5>
Do you know how to mak a yield run multiple times though?
<firewater5>
Besides writing yield x times?
<benzrf>
loop
<firewater5>
You can't just say yield * 4?
<benzrf>
there's no reason why that would do that
<firewater5>
or 3.times do yield?
<benzrf>
it gets the result of yield, them sends it the method * with the arg 4
<benzrf>
firewater5: 3.times {yield} is fine
<benzrf>
the block prevents the code from being executed
<benzrf>
instead it sends it as something you can run
<benzrf>
then the times method runs it that many times
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<firewater5>
IC, so basically the block just does whatever the yield is.
<firewater5>
Without messing with it?
<firewater5>
And then basically, it runes it as many times as the times method says.
<firewater5>
right?
<firewater5>
Whereas the yield * 4 is multiplying whatever is in yield by 4?
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<benzrf>
right
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<benzrf>
well, yield runs the block passed
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<firewater5>
So, if yield= n+=1. Its basically multiplying n by 4, which is going to result in four or no?
<benzrf>
there's nothing 'in' yield
<benzrf>
every time you do 'yield' it runs the block again
<benzrf>
so if I do this:
<benzrf>
def foo
<benzrf>
yield * 4
<benzrf>
end
<benzrf>
n = 0
<benzrf>
foo {n += 1}
<benzrf>
n is now 1
<benzrf>
foo yields, which runs the code in the block, which increments n
<benzrf>
the result of yield is 1, because that's what 'n += 1' comes out to
<benzrf>
the result is then * 4, then returned
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<benzrf>
when i say 'foo * 4', all that's doing is 'foo.*(4)
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<firewater5>
So, why would the foo{n+=1} not return 4 then?
<firewater5>
If the result is then *4 and returned?
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<benzrf>
it does return 4
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<benzrf>
but i'm not doing anything with the return value
<benzrf>
I'm not saying 'n = foo {n += 1}'
<Radcircle>
is it bad practice in ruby/rails to call models in a view?
<benzrf>
im just saying 'foo {n += 1}'
<popl>
benzrf++
<bnagy>
Radcircle: #rubyonrails
<benzrf>
popl: thanks?
<benzrf>
does that do anything at all
<popl>
no
<benzrf>
;p
<popl>
but it's the thought that counts
<benzrf>
hah
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<firewater5>
IC, I think then I get it.
<firewater5>
I think I am just saying it wrong.
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<popl>
/msg perlbot benzrf++ # benzrf has karma of 1
<popl>
SMASH THE SYSTEM
<benzrf>
hue
<firewater5>
benzrf, in the above example. Doesn't it really accomplish the same thing a 4.times {yield}?
<firewater5>
AKA, the return will also be 4 both ways from foo?
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<benzrf>
hmm
<benzrf>
?
<benzrf>
what do you mean?
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<benzrf>
those two things are entirely separate
<benzrf>
yield * 4 means calculate the result of yielding, then multiply it by four
<benzrf>
it does NOT mean yield + yield + yield + yield
<firewater5>
ok, IC then.
<firewater5>
So, competely different things, they may both get 4, but for different reasons.
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<benzrf>
yes.
<firewater5>
IC, thanks, this finally makes sense.
<benzrf>
also, Fixnum#times returns the number of times
<benzrf>
not the result ;p
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<benzrf>
it's a coincidence in that case
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<firewater5>
So, 4.times {yield} == yield+yield+yield+yield?
<firewater5>
Or no?
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<benzrf>
no
<benzrf>
they both run yield 4 times
<benzrf>
but 4.times {anything} will always return 4
<benzrf>
that's what times returns
<benzrf>
remember, /evaluating yield/ is what runs the code
<benzrf>
in the expression 'yield * 4', you evaluate yield, then call * on it, and pass in 4
<benzrf>
haskell, btw, has no side effects
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<benzrf>
evaluating an expression and not evaluating it cannot do different things in haskell
<benzrf>
so the order doesnt matter at all
<firewater5>
Sigh, so I guess back to what my goal is.
<firewater5>
I want to run yield as if I wrote it four times.
* dachi_
is away
<firewater5>
What is the correct way to do that without writing yield 4 times?
<benzrf>
so use 4.times
<firewater5>
But, I thought you said that always returns four.
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<firewater5>
For example 4.times {n+=2}
<krz>
i have an array %W(foo bar_attributes baz_attributes). how do i return elements with _attributes in them? as in ['bar_attributes', 'baz_attributes']
<benzrf>
oh
<benzrf>
ohhh i see
<benzrf>
Fixnum#times is not times as in multiply
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<benzrf>
it is times as in 'do this 4 times'
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<firewater5>
Yes, that is what I want then :).
<benzrf>
you want the result of adding 4 yields?
<firewater5>
Sorry, I think I was confused on one of your sentences was all.
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<popl>
What's up with eval-in?
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<krz>
which is better $ or \Z ?
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<benzrf>
krz: \Z for absolute end of string
<benzrf>
$ may mean end of line
<benzrf>
but it isnt usually a big deal
<benzrf>
you probably arent going to have line breaks in there
<benzrf>
*those worsd
<benzrf>
ugh
<krz>
kk
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<shevy>
krz $ is easier
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<shevy>
^ is beginning of line, $ is end of
<shevy>
so when you put your left hand on your keyboard
<shevy>
to the left of your left hand is start of the line, to the right of your left hand is end of the line (^, $)
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<Sawbones>
Is ruby just for rails, are there other non web projects people have used ruby for?
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<shawn42>
I use ruby for some hobby game dev
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<benzrf>
i use it for EVERYTHING
<benzrf>
i put it on sandwiches
<benzrf>
i fix creaky doors with it
<benzrf>
its a FIX ALL
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<shevy>
Sawbones ruby is general purpose
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<shevy>
hey shawn42 :)
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<shevy>
Sawbones ruby is like the ideal glue language. for instance you want to use ffmpeg for audio and video manipulation right? but you dont want to write shell scripts
<shawn42>
shevy: hi there
<shevy>
so there you go, use ruby
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<Sawbones>
Oh god I very much dislike shell scripts
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<shawn42>
Sawbones: most of us do ;)
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<shawn42>
Ruby can be used for full fledged applications or as a scripting language to replace perl / bash / etc scripts
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<benzrf>
it is a cross between lisp, perl, and smalltalk
<Sawbones>
I stopped using Python, I kept hitting road blocks with it
<benzrf>
maybe a small dash of python, to taste
<Sawbones>
I can call my C++ classes in it?
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<shevy>
Sawbones probably with ffi or specific bindings
<shevy>
given that C++ is like C
<shevy>
I used Ruby C and it worked
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<Mattx>
Hi
<dachi_>
hi
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<Mattx>
is there any elegant way to call a function with args and a block? func(foo) {|bar|...}
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<Mattx>
I'm asking because it doesn't work: func foo {|bar|...}
<Mattx>
neither func foo, {|bar|...}
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<bnagy>
whatever(foo) {|x| ... is the standard invocation
<dachi_>
the first one it is possible
<Mattx>
I know, I know
<dachi_>
you have to yield in a method definition
<Mattx>
it's kind of ugly tough
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<dachi_>
i think it's nice
<bnagy>
whatever foo, &blk works
<Mattx>
func foo {|bar|...}
<Mattx>
would be nicer :P
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<dachi_>
i generally use parenthesis, but can't you do that?
<bnagy>
you could probably declare the block inline in that form, but naked curly braces don't do that. You'd need a Proc or lambda or stabby syntax of some sort
<bnagy>
func foo { is just a syntax error, always
<bnagy>
interpreter don't work like dat
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<Mattx>
I can, the problem is that I was defining a function to make my life easy in an app I'm writing
<Mattx>
and that syntax is ugly for this use case
<Mattx>
it looks like this:
<Mattx>
def try(type=Object, &block)
<Mattx>
result = block.call rescue nil
<Mattx>
end
<Mattx>
(result.is_a? type) ? result : type.new
<Mattx>
so I can do data = try Array { whatever }
<Mattx>
and even if whatever crashes I get something of type Array
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<bnagy>
o_0
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<bnagy>
ok well I don't see how parantheses make that any more bizarre than it already is
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<Mattx>
it doesn't make much sense but I have this app in which I have to constantly check types, and /whatever/ is some data I don't generate so it's usually wrong and unexpected u.u
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<bnagy>
whatever being the block contents?
<bnagy>
and that is something you don't generate?
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<Mattx>
to be preciser /whatever/ is a hash, but I can't not guarantee that it has the structure I want, so instead of asking for its keys, I just do try(String) { data[:i][:dont][:care][:if][:its][:ok] }
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<Mattx>
s/can't not/can't/
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<bnagy>
oh, this is like Rails crap - they have some stupid workaround for hashes like that
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<Mattx>
oh, really?
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<Mattx>
I haven't seen anything like this in rails
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<bnagy>
there's some class that acts like a hash but nonexistant nests always return nil ( and anyway a class like that is trivial to implement )
<bnagy>
then you can just do Array( data[x][y][z][q] ) and you'll get an array
<Mattx>
that's a good idea actually
<bnagy>
Integer() is the one that won't work
<bnagy>
well the first one that springs to mind
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<Mattx>
do you remember the name of that class?
<dachi_>
bnagy what do use other than rails for web? just a rack app?
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<bnagy>
Mattx: sorry, I don't
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<bnagy>
but probably someone will, or #rubyonrails
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<Mattx>
<bnagy> whatever foo, &blk works
<Mattx>
I think it doesn't
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<bnagy>
should, assuming you have defined blk
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<Mattx>
ah, ok, but not with {..}
<Mattx>
sure
<bnagy>
you have to call the block in that syntax, you can't yield it
<Mattx>
yep, I got what you mean
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<bnagy>
whatever foo, Proc.new {|x| ...} should work
<bnagy>
or lambda or (maybe) stabby
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<bnagy>
yeah def foo(arg,blk) then foo 3, ->{ #stuff } works
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<bnagy>
dachi_: I don't web
<Mattx>
->{} would work as well but you have to change the def of the function
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<dachi_>
bnagy: thanks for responding, i just wondered, if devs who're way far more experienced than I am use rails or not
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<Agamemnus>
hello.
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<bnagy>
dachi_: there are quite a few good ruby options for web stuff other than rails, with varying sized communities
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<dachi_>
i see thanks
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<e62>
win 4
<e62>
eh, woops
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<Radar>
dachi_: Rails is fineeee.
<Radar>
dachi_: Sinatra is great for light stuff, but for anything more than a couple of pages I would totally use Rails.
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<Wixy>
I have an array of arrays, like [[1], [2], ...]
<Wixy>
and I want to loop over it
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<Wixy>
but when it only has one element, it works differently
<Wixy>
wait, I think I'm wrong :P
<Wixy>
nm
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<pontiki>
confident rubyist is confident
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<Cope>
I want to test a website that requires me to pass a specific host header. I'm using watir-webdriver. Seems like the Browser.goto method expects a string, but I need to pass it an IP and host header. Any suggestions on how to do something like this?
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<zxd>
hi
<zxd>
I am new to ruby why would I want to use RVM why would I need multiple ruby interpreters
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<tobiasvl>
it's not just multiple interpreters, it gives you separate environments (version, gems, etc)
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<Cope>
zxd: fwiw I don't bother with rvm at all; bundler provides all I need; if I need multiple ruby version/interpreters I use chruby.
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<ddd>
zxd you would want something like rvm or rbenv or chruby when you have multiple projects each using different ruby versions, and if you wanted multiple gemsets (gemsets allow you to have isolated packs of gems specific to different projects)
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<ddd>
rvm gives you the multiple gemsets (just remember to rvm gemset globalcache enable so that you can share previously downloaded gems from a central cache. this is just the downloads, not the actual gems once installed. basically it keeps you from hitting rubygems.org every time you need that same gem version. once oyu got it you got it)
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<ddd>
the other two i'm not extremely familiar with their inner workings so you'll have to check their docs to see how they do the same thing
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<rdark>
is 1.9.3 really now EOL?
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<workmad3>
rdark: if you read that, you'll see it's still maintained but most likely just security fixes now
<workmad3>
rdark: hence the status of 'maintained' rather than the 1.8.7 and 1.9.2 statuses of EOL ;)
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<mikecmpbll>
yeah that's a clue
<rdark>
workmad3: that's what I thought, thanks :)
<rdark>
I read 'normal maintenance' 2013/12 as EOL, not enought coffee yet this morning
<Hanmac>
1.8.7 has the status "undead" ... because it is still maintained my third party after the developers did EOL'd it
<workmad3>
1.8.7 - zombie ruby
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<rdark>
yeah, that's the problem with long distro release cycles, RHEL has worked around it with SCL, but they're going to be supporting system 1.8.7 for years to come on RHEL6
<workmad3>
or maybe it's vampire ruby? sucking the life out of help channels even after it died and was buried
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<wald0>
does Macros (like the C ones) exist in ruby or we have only functions for that?
<workmad3>
wald0: no, there's no pre-processor in ruby (and no compile time to run one at)
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<workmad3>
wald0: and in ruby, everything is a method, not a function (OO terminology)
<workmad3>
well, anything you call is a method, everything is an object (with some provisos :) )
<wald0>
ok :)
<canton7>
and no, there's no preprocessor
<ms_steampunk>
Hey guys, I'm kind of confused with Nokogiri, can I use Nokogiri to see if the page has RSS in it? I've noticed that some RSS may have .xml appended to the end while others do not
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<wald0>
how i can define a method to be called like a function ? (without object.method mode), so simply directly the name of the method in a single line
<Hanmac1>
wald0 but it can look like Macros ... like attr_accessor for sample
<canton7>
ms_steampunk, yeah, look for <link> tags with type="application/rs+xml"
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<ms_steampunk>
canton7: Thanks a lot!
<canton7>
*rss+xml rather
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<wald0>
Hanmac: im trying to see the info of attr_accessor in pry, where it is exactly located?
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<Hanmac>
wald0: defined as instance method in Module and so accessable in each module and class
<workmad3>
wald0: dropping the object is just syntax sugar for 'self.method' (assuming the method isn't shadowed by a local variable)
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<workmad3>
wald0: which should give you an idea of how and when you can drop the explicit receiver :)
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<wald0>
mmmh, class Module ; def pwd ; Dir.pwd ; end ; end
<wald0>
something like this should work ?
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<wald0>
im trying it in pry but i have: NameError: undefined local variable or method `pwd' for main:Object
<workmad3>
wald0: that's because you defined the method as a mixin method on Module
<wald0>
or just outside any class?
<ddd>
can you have a class Module? wouldn't that conflict with the existing Module? or is he trying to extend it?
<workmad3>
ddd: Module is an existing class
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<workmad3>
ddd: it's the class that modules are instances of
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<ddd>
right, so he's trying to add this to the class?
<wald0>
ddd: im doing a test, trying to have available a "function" (method) call anywhere without the need of to call from an object
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<workmad3>
wald0: as I already said, there is *always* an object you're calling on in ruby
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<workmad3>
wald0: not having an explicit object just means you're implicitly calling it on 'self'
<workmad3>
wald0: which means that the method needs to be defined on whatever 'self' is at that point
<ddd>
even if you're in the top level (outside of any class etc) you have an object. Ruby's top-level is main
<wald0>
workmad3: so i should simply define methods at the start of my code and i can use it later?
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<wald0>
(without be defined inside classes)
<workmad3>
wald0: if you're writing a script, you can do that
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<wald0>
script, app, code, whats the difference ? :)
<workmad3>
wald0: if you're writing a larger application, I'd recommend against polluting your top-level
<workmad3>
wald0: a script is a short, single-file chunk of code that's intended to be run as-is
<workmad3>
wald0: so the difference is in the amount of structuring that's appropriate :P
<wald0>
ah
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<workmad3>
wald0: namely, you *can* put the methods at the top-level no matter what... but if it's a larger application, it's not a good idea because it'll mess things up :)
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<wald0>
yeah, sounds like, but by other side you could have "functions that trigger actions", mmh, maybe i need to be more familiarized with rb :)
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<ddd>
it'd be akin to defining a bunch of globals ($var). why would you
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<wald0>
what is the best way to set an alias of NULL to be nil ?
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<wald0>
class NULL < nil ; end ?
<workmad3>
wald0: you don't
<workmad3>
wald0: you use nil
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<wald0>
workmad3: but sometimes i want to use NULL :)
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<tobiasvl>
you can't subclass nil
<workmad3>
wald0: stop writing C inside ruby
<ddd>
hehe
<tobiasvl>
nil is not a class, it's an instance
<tobiasvl>
NilClass is the class nil is a (singleton) instance of
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<wald0>
workmad3: lol you got me, in fact im trying to have some C code that directly works without modifications in a paste to ruby, just for make things faster, the only things that doesnt works are these macros, so i should create for them methods i assume, and NULL to be translated to nil
<workmad3>
wald0: does this C code have 'i++' anywhere?
<ddd>
people do some really weird things
<workmad3>
wald0: because that's not possible in ruby :P
<tobiasvl>
NULL = nil
<tobiasvl>
boom?
<workmad3>
tobiasvl: would work, I guess
<wald0>
not here, they are mostly like "calls of functions" for GUI development (it could but not here)
<workmad3>
tobiasvl: but I wasn't going to make it easy to do crazy things personally :)
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<wald0>
this is an actual working example, as you can see, most of them are "pure C code" http://paste.debian.net/75204/
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<workmad3>
ewww
<workmad3>
:P
<wald0>
ddd: fast development of ruby from C code :), just paste hte C code, run it and see that it works, then rename it to be more ruby-like syntax
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<ddd>
that is no not fast development
<Hanmac>
ms_steampunk: i think with doc.xpath("//link[@type=\"application/rss+xml\"]")
<ddd>
what you're doing doesn't make any sense if you're just mimicing in an interpreted language what you're doing in a compiled language which gains execution speed gains
<wald0>
if you want to see a look to this GUI toolkit bindings this is a nice demo of some codes in a video, workmad3 ^
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<ddd>
in fact you're slowing it down. (not to mention its ugly as sin)
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<wald0>
ddd: yes it does, this GUI c-api is very powerful and complete, but is C, by using it in ruby i can have "all the features of ruby" for the same speedy interfaces gui
<ddd>
if you say so
<emocakes>
wheres wald0
<wald0>
ruby is much nicer to code and to use features, so i just need to re-use hte parts that i need for the gui elements
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<wald0>
emocakes: here!
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<wald0>
ddd: by other side of course you could create classes with pre-made code on it
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<workmad3>
wald0: ruby is only much nicer with something like that when you have a decent ruby wrapper around the API
<workmad3>
wald0: what you have there is C code in ruby
<workmad3>
wald0: which is not much nicer... it's just C code
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<wald0>
workmad3: right, this is just a GUI example part, think about make an app that does a lot of things and shows "a few of them" in a gui form (this c code)
<wald0>
gui checkbox --> run mechanize to follow some actions in a web-page
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<wald0>
example
<workmad3>
wald0: I'd wrap that gui interface in ruby objects to make it more natural to use
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<workmad3>
wald0: I wouldn't try to copy-paste C code to just make it work any old way
<wald0>
workmad3: yeah, that could be much nicer, but im actually novice at ruby, just readed a book yet (called: begining ruby), i think that i must practice a bit first
<wald0>
maybe i will make some basic interface calls like the ones of zenity
<workmad3>
wald0: I'd agree... I'd also suggest that in order to practice, you should be looking to do things in an idiomatic ruby manner
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<wald0>
yeah, and i like the ruby manner for sure :)
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<workmad3>
wald0: and not just figure out how to get C style ruby code :P
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<workmad3>
wald0: which would, to me, imply that maybe you should delay this particular project a bit ;)
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<wald0>
well, my goal will be of course to use a much simpler "ruby manner" to make gui's, otherwise i would stick using directly the C coding (losing the ruby features)
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<workmad3>
wald0: or stretch yourself and try to do it properly from the start, figuring out the difficult bits as you go along
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<wald0>
mmh, for me i feel much easier if "my first test" simply works (a paste of the C equivalent code), and then start translating it to more ruby style... otherwise i feel it frustrating if you need to translate all before you get the single instance working
<wald0>
well
<wald0>
by other side these bindings has already a lot of ruby-manner available
<wald0>
i can use it in c-style and ruby-style
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<wald0>
but i just found it very complex and hard to understand when it is ruby :///
<wald0>
so i want to make my own ones
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<ddd>
so basically you're trying to remove the pressure to actually learn the language and keep doing what you're doing the way you're used to doing it.
<ddd>
interesting
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<wald0>
ddd: well, yes and no, its much easier for me to use the already-known api
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<wald0>
just because im very familiarized with it, not because "i like it more" :)
<wald0>
mmmh im checking the ruby-style of these bindings, they doesnt seems very hard, but i would like to know if there's some doc/reference of them, because i have not them
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<ms_steampunk>
can I get a link using Nokogiri by using an element attribute or would I have to use Mechanize for that? Also sorry for the nub questions, I just started programming shortly before Christmas
<apeiros>
nokogiri on its own is enough to parse an html/xml file and extract links from it
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<ms_steampunk>
Oh okay, thanks apeiros
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<emocakes>
making a bot ms_steampunk
<emocakes>
?
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<emocakes>
i started ruby with using mechanize
<emocakes>
and making a bot for an online game
<emocakes>
:)
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<ms_steampunk>
emocakes: Mm, not exactly, I'm not sure if it'd be considered a bot. Just something that checks whether a website has RSS and if it does, it displays the feed.
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<emocakes>
well, a scraper of sorts then
<emocakes>
:)
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<emocakes>
good way to learn
<ms_steampunk>
emocakes: What are you using to learn about making bots?
<ms_steampunk>
:)
<emocakes>
nothing
<emocakes>
imitate the way i play the game normally
<emocakes>
but make it a program doing it
<emocakes>
just logic
<emocakes>
and mechanize
<emocakes>
this was years ago though
<emocakes>
now I do RoR development
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<emocakes>
and because of that, my ruby skills are low :p
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<ms_steampunk>
Oh haha I doubt that!
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<yoshie902a>
I am using attributes.fetch :myvalue, but I get an error when I use { 'myvalue'=>1}, is there a way to get attribute.fetch to grab the value of either a symbol or string key with the same name?
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<yoshie902a>
anyone around?
<yoshie902a>
hello?
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<DouweM>
nope
<yoshie902a>
seems like it
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<yoshie902a>
except for you and myself
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<DouweM>
But anyway, if you have a hash that you want to access using both strings or symbols, check out ActiveSupport's HashWithIndifferentAccess
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<yoshie902a>
DouweM: is there a quick change to my code, I am not using activeSupport
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<DouweM>
yoshie902a: covert to_s/to_sym manually?
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<benzrf>
hello
<benzrf>
legend is working as expectedB)
<DouweM>
hi
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<benzrf>
I wrote a test example thing in it and it actually works
<benzrf>
woop
<yoshie902a>
DouweM: I was hoping there was a flag for fetch or something
<DouweM>
yoshie902a: why would there be? this is really not a concern of Hash
<DouweM>
yoshie902a: strings aren't symbols and symbols aren't strings
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<benzrf>
yoshie902a: write an extension method
<benzrf>
or something
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<benzrf>
class Hash
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<benzrf>
def special_fetch(key)
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<benzrf>
etc
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<yoshie902a>
DouweM: can you look at my import_to_array function. http://pastie.org/8615515 how would you advice changing the code to convert to symbols. I tried a few things, but I got errors
<DouweM>
that's a gross monkeypatch
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<DouweM>
yoshie902a: I'll have a look
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<DouweM>
yoshie902a: why not just use attributes.fetch("report_date") etc?
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<yoshie902a>
DouweM: that's what I was trying to do originally, but when I use data<<Hash[[header, spreadsheet.row(i)].transpose].to_sym, it does not work,
<DouweM>
go over that line step by step. at what point could you use #map and #to_sym to get the desired result
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<DouweM>
right now you're calling #to_sym on a Hash, which makes little sense
<yoshie902a>
Should I replace the header line?
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<yoshie902a>
I tried this too, but got errors header = header.map(|key| key.to_sym)
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<DouweM>
that looks better!
<DouweM>
but that's not block syntax, use {} rather than ()
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<yoshie902a>
DouweM: yay, thanks!
<yoshie902a>
your help was much apprecaited
<yoshie902a>
ok, got to get to work.
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<RedNifre>
Hey there!
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<apeiros>
Erfinder…
<RedNifre>
I'm new to ruby. I had this method that yielded a block, but now I refactored it by moving the yielding part to a separate method. How do I pass the block from the first to the second method so that it can yield it?
<RedNifre>
:)
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<benzrf>
RedNifre: &
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<benzrf>
RedNifre: def foo(arg1, arg2, &block)
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<canton7-mac>
def my_method(&blk) some_other_method(blk) end, then blk.call
<benzrf>
block will now contain a proc object of the block passed
<benzrf>
or nil if no block
<benzrf>
RedNifre: when calling, pass the object as the block arg with foo.bar(1, 2, 3, &block)
<RedNifre>
So I add it as a separate parameter and no longer use "yield"?
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<benzrf>
yep
<RedNifre>
how odd. Is there a reason why it is like that?
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<tobiasvl>
RedNifre: do you know what yield actually does?
<RedNifre>
My understanding is that it runs the block that was passed to the method.
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<canton7-mac>
it's just shorthand. def foo \n yield \n end and def foo(&blk) \n blk.call \n end are equivalent
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<RedNifre>
Ok, now I'm confused. If I call a method that takes a parameter and a block and passes the block, it doesn't work if I call it like "bla a {something}", but it works as "bla(a) {something}" and if that method yields directly it works as "bla a {something}". Why is that?
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<apeiros>
RedNifre: precedence
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<apeiros>
`blah x { foo }` is `blah(x { foo })`
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<apeiros>
i.e., the block is associated with x, not with blah
<RedNifre>
Oh, that makes sense.
<apeiros>
use do/end instead, then precedence changes
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<apeiros>
`blah x do foo end` is `blah(x) do foo end`
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<shevy>
apeiros is back!
<shevy>
with a fully repaired laptop
<benzrf>
hello apeiros
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<benzrf>
i divided my project into tiny files as per your orders
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<apeiros>
benzrf: great, at least one person who actually listens to my advice ;-)
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<shevy>
apeiros can you please also order benzrf to make a gem
<apeiros>
shevy: since new years eve already
<apeiros>
benzrf: you heard THE MAN :D
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<benzrf>
i am MAKING a gem god dammit
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<benzrf>
it is currently far from being in pre-gamma
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<benzrf>
are you insisting that i push it as is
<benzrf>
@_@
<apeiros>
no
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<apeiros>
that's not necessary when developing a gem
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<benzrf>
apeiros: i implemented some simple display logic
<benzrf>
now it is possible to use the library a little bit B)
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<benzrf>
anybody care to take a glance @ drawable.rb and tell me why I should not be using class vars
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<havenwood>
you shouldn't be using class variables because they are an anti-pattern that shouldn't have been in Ruby in the first place and hopefully will be gone in 3.0 :P
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<benzrf>
nuuu
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<benzrf>
then are you telling me to use ivars in the module object
<benzrf>
that would require manually referring to it
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<benzrf>
i.e. Drawable.foo instead of @@foo
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<havenwood>
benzrf: i haven't actually looked at the use case. maybe they're useful and appropriate in your case? i tend to architect to avoid them, but do see them used from time to time.
<apeiros>
benzrf: additionally to what havenwood said: because they don't work the way you think they work
<Kneferilis>
hi, ruby has abstract classes and interfaces?
<benzrf>
ah, but they do :)
<benzrf>
Kneferilis: interfaces in ruby would be pointless
<apeiros>
Kneferilis: no
<benzrf>
Kneferilis: ruby has duck typing
<benzrf>
Kneferilis: it has mixins/modules for similar use cases to abstract classes
<havenwood>
if it grows and chases you, its not a duck
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<apeiros>
Kneferilis: I assume you try to solve a problem. don't solve it by applying other languages idioms. learn the idioms of a new language.
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<apeiros>
Kneferilis: best done by asking how to solve the problem instead of forcing a specific solution in your question.
<benzrf>
Kneferilis: indeed!
<benzrf>
Kneferilis: in ruby, assume the object you get has the methods you need
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<benzrf>
Kneferilis: if it doesn't, that's the callers' problem
<benzrf>
Kneferilis: you can use Object#respond_to? if you need to check whether something has a method
<benzrf>
but you shouldn't have to use it unless your method takes multiple kinds of input and you need to figure out which one you got
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<benzrf>
Kneferilis: mixins let you define a set of methods that can be added to any class easily
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<benzrf>
Kneferilis: which is a little bit like abstract classes
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<Kneferilis>
but PHP has abstract classes and interfaces
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<olivier_bK>
i have a problem with this command but i dont know how to resolv it
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<havenwood>
i think better to `threads.map(&:join)` but (s)he left i guess
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<IceyEC>
I bet you're right but what would be the practical difference?
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<pontiki>
the return value
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<havenwood>
yeah, just a return value that reflects the post #join thread
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<havenwood>
threads*
<IceyEC>
gotcha
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<havenwood>
could end up being handy for debugging or whatever, even if you're not directly using it
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<DouweM>
but Thread#join returns self, so the result would just be the same as threads :/
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<havenwood>
DouweM: you're in an #each though
<DouweM>
what do you mean?
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<havenwood>
DouweM: i dunno, i need coffee to think
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<havenwood>
seems i'm totally wrong on differing return value, oops!
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<havenwood>
DouweM: good point! >.>
<DouweM>
:D
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<pagios>
hello, i would like to track the duration time of a script since it started , the duration needs to be written every second on a file since the system can be shutdown at anytime can that be done using ruby
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<pontiki>
what can't be done using ruby?
<pontiki>
anyway
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<wald0_>
hi shevy ! did you had any problem installing libefl & libelementary the other day ?
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<`petey`_>
I'm working on a config.rb file and I have to take windows and macs in account for directories
<`petey`_>
how can I set a directory that covers both?
<`petey`_>
I know that windows uses \ and macs use /
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<DouweM>
Use Pathname#join
<`petey`>
Sweet. thank you
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<pagios>
i have a bash script that can be called at anytime, once the script is called i need to track for how long that script got executed before it exits. Now my concern is that the system can be turned off at anytime while the script is executing + the system does not have a backedup battery so the time and date are irrelevant (set to jan 1 1978 all the time since no ntp available - no internet) how can i track the duration to the secon
<pagios>
ds level?
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<IceDragon>
pagios: You could run the script on one thread, and then have ruby keep a counter (thread { script }; thread { loop { sleep 1; counter+= 1 } })
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<IceDragon>
of course you break the counter thread when the script stops executing
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<pagios>
IceDragon: you mean have thread { loop { sleep 1; counter+= 1 ,,, writing duration to ile too } }) ?
<IceDragon>
yup
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<pagios>
what happens if system dies while writing to file?
<pagios>
i am afraid file gets corrupt or sunno what
<pagios>
i need that to be atomic
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<IceDragon>
you could write multiple files
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<IceDragon>
and alternate between them
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<pagios>
i will then need to check for junks in a file
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<IceDragon>
pagios, or you could use File.sync and append
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<IceDragon>
even if power goes out, at least the latter part of the file would still be intact
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<Fuzai>
journaling filesystems would help here
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<pagios>
IceDragon: with file.sync i would write every second on a line for example?
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<IceDragon>
file.sync ensures that the file is written to the disk with every change
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<Fuzai>
why not use something like a database engine instead of flat files?
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<makkura>
pagios: Create log file on script start, store timestamp, close file. loop with a 1 second sleep/wait .. then just system("touch logfile.log") so you don't risk the file corrupting while editing
<makkura>
assumes a linux file system there but should be something similar for other oses
<pagios>
touch logfile.log is atomic?
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<makkura>
it's editing the modified time on a file rather than the contents, pretty sure it's safer but i don't have a way to verify offhand :/
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<pagios>
added layer of complexity is that system might go on the internet every now and then so ntp will update it....
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<makkura>
pagios: well any timestamp or time feature you use is going to update automatically then. Consider you normally check how long something has been running by comparing timestamps
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<makkura>
you could keep a counter and increment it.. or read from the file and add 1 each time.. but that leaves a lot of potential time with the file open for something so small
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<pagios>
so mainly if i create a file when system is Sat Jan 1 06:36:29 EET 2000 and then i update the system, the date of the file will be updated accordingly?
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<makkura>
be careful of your file system there.. as i recall created dates aren't stored, modified dates are
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<makkura>
thus you can use touch to set a modified date and use it as the 'the program last executed at' time..
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<makkura>
if you store the timestamp in the file then you have the start time.. but if the clock is updated between putting the time stamp in the file and the final touch call.. the difference created by the updated time will be there
<makkura>
since the timestamp inside the file is just text at that point.. it won't be updated to take in account any change
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<pagios>
makkura: i mena consider this, system is date: 2000, script starts, i record the start date which is 2000, then i start doing "touch" to update every second the modification date, now while this is happening an ntp comes in and updates the system now my date is 2014, the duration is like 14 years
<makkura>
that's how it would read, yes
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<makkura>
normally clock drift due to dysynced time is pretty low, though
<pagios>
so that is a problem
<pagios>
system can come up anytime on the internet and get updated by an ntp
<makkura>
is the internet access constant so you can make a regular time update to minimize the impact or is it intermittent ?
<pagios>
so i was thinking of working on duration instead of modification dates
<IceyEC>
so write a single bit to the file every time and then check the file size
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<IceyEC>
lets you get away without having to read the file)
<benzrf>
hows it goin makkura
<pagios>
IceyEC: what happens if system dies while writing that bit
<pagios>
coz it can be unplugged anytime too
<IceyEC>
then your'e a second behind
<IceyEC>
you're*
<makkura>
benzrf: doing alright, got some progress on my RVM issue. Internal proxy / web filter junk was messing with it's file grabs.
<IceyEC>
you should write it as an append
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<pagios>
IceyEC: maybe the file gets corrupted?
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<pagios>
if i append it is garanteed the file headers and content stay safe?
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<makkura>
well the content itself doesn't matter in that case.. just the file size itself
<pagios>
yea but if headers are corrypt i wont be able to read the file size
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<makkura>
why is the per second run time so critical? it seems to leave you open to a fraction of a second of potential corruption every second :|
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<pagios>
so the big question is can a file have its headers corrupted when power is lost and at the same time appending to that file
<pagios>
i am using ext4 as filesystem
<makkura>
I'm not particularly familiar with the safety of files from file corruption for situations like these between file systems :|
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<IceyEC>
I'm going with no
<IceyEC>
i = 0
<IceyEC>
while true
<IceyEC>
i+= 1
<IceyEC>
File.open('some-file.txt', 'a') { |f| f.write(0); raise Exception.new if i % 100 == 0 }
<IceyEC>
end
<IceyEC>
works just fine
<IceyEC>
and the file is open for appending in that block
<IceyEC>
comes out as a well formed file with all 0
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<WhereIsMySpoon>
o/
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<pagios>
IceyEC: each 0 written is a byte
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<IceyEC>
right, so you'd count bytes
<IceyEC>
instead of bits
<makkura>
If you're just looping and writing to a file and waiting a second before repeating.. you're slowly time drifting for the duration of the execution of the block .. some tiny amount each file write. How critical is this 1s accuracy? [this is one of the reasons we normally use timestamps]
<IceyEC>
or replace the write(0) with a bit
<pagios>
need to sleep 1 no?
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<pagios>
makkura: it is fine if i loose up to 5 sec
<makkura>
pagios: you'd need a sleep in IceyEC's example, yes
<pagios>
lose*
<makkura>
5 seconds over the course of how long?
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<pagios>
all in all, everytime the scripts starts and dies
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<pagios>
in IceyEC i would lose at most 1 sec right
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<IceyEC>
except that there is the potential for drift while the loop is iterating
<pagios>
drift?
<IceyEC>
namely, your loop iteration is 1 second + time to append the file
<pagios>
you mean maybe cpu threading and stuff?
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<IceyEC>
that too
<IceyEC>
saying you want to track time without using time introduces a lot of other issues
<pagios>
if system gets overloaded and pipelining and cpu stuff take place a second wont be a real second
<IceyEC>
right
<IceyEC>
and ruby's sleep doesn't give a hard guarantee of a second for that reason
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<pagios>
maybe running it with nice will do it
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<pagios>
i unfortunately cant use "time" since the system time can change anytime with the ntp
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<pagios>
so if AbsoluteTime.now%1.0 == 0 means match every 1 sec
<IceyEC>
actually, it should probably be
<IceyEC>
AbsoluteTime.now.to_f % 1.0 == 0
<IceyEC>
basically, yeah
<IceyEC>
except that it may miss the second depending on how fast it runs
<IceyEC>
which would be unfortunate
<IceyEC>
how accurate do you need to be?
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<pagios>
need accuracy to the second level
<IceyEC>
so, you need to be able to say accurately, to the second, how long it ran?
<pagios>
if script dies in the middle due to power problem i can afford losing 5 sec
<pagios>
yes
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<IceyEC>
ok, give me a minute to think of it :-P
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<pagios>
thanks , been thinking about it for the last past days
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<pagios>
so script can die in the middle or can exit gracefully i need to handle both scenarios and report back the duration till the crash, or till the graceful exit
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<pagios>
IceyEC: why are you using i+=1 ?
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<Hanmac1>
IceyEC are you looking looking for FileUtils.touch ? or is there a reason why you add 0 to the files?
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<IceyEC>
back, I'm adding the 0 to the file to increase file size, does FileUtils.touch actually write to the file or just modify its last modified date? Hanmac1
<Hanmac1>
only change the last modified date
<IceyEC>
pagios: I'm using the += 1 there so that I could verify that it was working as expected, after running (and then breaking out of the loop with ctrl-c) you can verify that the iterations counter (i) is the same as the number of bytes in the file
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<Hanmac1>
why are you adding 0 to the file in a loop?
<aurimasn>
DouweM: I was thinking about Node but npm is bit a hell to work with :)
<DouweM>
:)
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<aurimasn>
DouweM: In home I work a lot with ruby, in work i work with PHP mainly so I think PHP developers would be more clever with XML than Ruby syntax
<DouweM>
But why not use AR? It already has migrations, DB adapters etc. The only thing you'd need to add is support for XML
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<DouweM>
I'm sorry, but raising 50k for this is completely unrealistic
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<aurimasn>
DouweM: AR works bit different from my idea
<aurimasn>
DouweM: I am quitting job for this
<havenwood>
xml :O
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<DouweM>
migrations are a part of AR that can be used standalone with a little creativity
<aurimasn>
DouweM: I know :)
<DouweM>
havenwood: my first though as well
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<aurimasn>
havenwood: I run a research in my company and some forums and 75% was XML chosen...
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<DouweM>
people don't know what's good for them :P
<DouweM>
But I don't think XML is the biggest problem with this
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<lethjakman>
is there anything like coffeescript's (@name) -> for functions in ruby?
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<lethjakman>
the @name automatically assigns name to a instance variable
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<DouweM>
not that I know of
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<waxjar>
you can use -> to create a lambda: ->(x,y) { "#{x}, #{y}" } ?
<havenwood>
lethjakman: there have been some proposals on the mailing list
<DouweM>
havenwood: link? I'm curious
<havenwood>
stabby lambda, stab stab!
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<DouweM>
lethjakman is asking specifically about `(@name) ->` being a shortcut for `(name) -> @name = name` in CS, for which there is no equivalent that I know of in Ruby
<lethjakman>
that's what I'm wanting but I don't remember the exact termnology
<lethjakman>
rather than having to write a case statement in the function
<DouweM>
lethjakman: right. that would be useful, but I'm wary of checking types rather than duck typing
<lethjakman>
DouweM: is that called duck typing?
<DouweM>
nah
<DouweM>
duck typing is the idea that you should ask something for its class to determine behavior, but you should look at what it can actually do. So no .is_a?(Proc) but .responds_to?(:call)
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<DouweM>
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
<DouweM>
If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
<DouweM>
whoops
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<Hanmac1>
"Dragon! Now you are a duck!" "Okay *sadface*"
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<DouweM>
*you should *not* ask something for its class
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<havenwood>
DouweM: Or a cleverly disguised navy reconnaissance drone.
<DouweM>
obviously :)
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<txdv>
I will have duck for dinner if it looks like a duck
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* Hanmac1
ask for class but only in his binding ... because a wrong cast can be your last one
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<wald0>
what "include" does exactly?
<txdv>
yoda you are in the wrong channel
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<DouweM>
wald0: what don't you understand exactly? have you read the docs?
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<wald0>
DouweM: im trying to see the difference between include, require, and load
<DouweM>
include is a completely different beast from the others
<Hanmac1>
wald0 require and load are similar, include is not
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<wald0>
so what include does ? :)
<wald0>
or how i read the doc for it ?
<Hanmac>
its like comparing an apple a pear and a dog
<DouweM>
haha
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<benzrf>
wald0: include mixes a module into a class
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<benzrf>
wald0: you can define a set of methods in a module, then mix it into multiple classes
<benzrf>
wald0: for example, the Enumerable module defines a crapload of methods like map, reverse, and stuff, that rely on the 'each' method
<benzrf>
wald0: so you can define 'each' for your class, then mix in Enumerable
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<benzrf>
wald0: and just like that, you have bajillions of handy methods
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<benzrf|reading>
bbloom:
<benzrf|reading>
*bbl
<wald0>
hum... i think that i need to understand better what is a module vs class vs mixin
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<DouweM>
another apple, pear, dog comparison :) module and class are related/similar, mixin is (in Ruby's case) the act of "copying" a module's methods into a class or module
<wald0>
include is for add the contents (methods only?) of a module ?
<DouweM>
pretty much
<wald0>
mmh
* wald0
reading its own reference of ruby
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<apeiros>
wald0: include adds the module to the ancestry of a class
<apeiros>
(with a module it's a bit more involved)
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<wald0>
can i see some example of include somewhere in (which?) docs ?
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<DouweM>
>> module Foo; def bar; puts "bar"; end; end; class X; include Foo; end; X.new.bar
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<DouweM>
poor eval-in
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<DouweM>
the Ruby docs about include aren't very useful, but there's plenty of material on rest of the web
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<wald0>
checking my reference docs I think that I understand it better
<wald0>
fortunately i write those summary's after to read a book lol
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<wald0>
specially this comment: # basically is a method defined outside of any class form, so when integrating a module inside an external class it will simply work on it
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<wald0>
im not sure to understand correctly what i wrote in lines 15,16, i think that they are wrong :/
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<benzrf|reading>
1 moment sorry
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<mordocai>
Can anyone help me with this error message while running rspecs? I saw a lot of references to similar errors on google, but no explanation of why this is happening nor how to fix it. http://pastebin.com/ZAm6pxaZ'
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<wald0>
if i print "class" inside a Module it says the name of the module, so... is a module considered a class?
<benzrf|reading>
one sec sorry |:
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<benzrf|reading>
wald0: Module is a superclass of Class
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<DouweM>
`module X; puts self.class; end;` will result in "Module" being printed
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<apeiros>
wald0: um, no, SomeModule.class does not print the name of the module
<apeiros>
it'll print Module, because modules are instances of the class `Module`
<benzrf|reading>
ri does not seem to work on builtins for me
<benzrf|reading>
~_~
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<benzrf|reading>
>> Array#sample
<benzrf|reading>
Nothing known about Array#sample
<benzrf|reading>
^ri
<Hanmac>
works for me ;P
<miah>
also wfm
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<Hanmac>
benzrf|reading: i think you use rvm right? rvm does not build the doc as far as i know by default
<miah>
it looks to me like you are trying to end that command into pry or something
<miah>
and not just.. a command line from your shell
<miah>
unless your PS1 is indeed set to >>
<apeiros>
benzrf|reading: installed ruby via rvm?
<wald0>
benzrf|reading: in your Formattable module, you have "message.upcase", if im not wrong "message" is a static name, is not this a problem? i mean, can it know the "parameter" dynamically ?
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<wald0>
what means the # in Array#sample ? it should be not Array.sample instead ?
<apeiros>
wald0: in documentation, # denotes instance methods
<apeiros>
and :: denotes class methods
<apeiros>
. is ambivalent
<soapscum>
quick question... coming from a python background, i'm used to a statement like "import other_file.py as newName", and then i can do things like newName.method(), newName.property.... is there an equivalent in ruby?
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<apeiros>
soapscum: only partially
<soapscum>
i used require_relative
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<soapscum>
thanks, apeiros
<miah>
require 'foo'
<soapscum>
right
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<miah>
then you instantiate and assign
<apeiros>
soapscum: there's require 'file' which will load a file relative to any of $LOAD_PATH's paths (+ gems)
<soapscum>
but in ruby, everything is just loaded into the same namespace, right?
<miah>
so if your class is 'class Foo'
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<miah>
you just 'derp = Foo.new'
<apeiros>
soapscum: yes, toplevel
<soapscum>
so if i have def say_hello in 'foo'
<Oog>
why would gembundle install need root?!
<Oog>
on osx
<soapscum>
ah, i see
<soapscum>
let me go play with that
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<apeiros>
soapscum: toplevel defined methods used to be file local, not sure it's still that way
<soapscum>
at least on my version it's still that way
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<soapscum>
thanks a bunch for the help
<apeiros>
soapscum: if you want to define methods which work like e.g. `puts`, define them in the Kernel module and mark them as module_function
<soapscum>
ah, nothing that complicated
<wald0>
apeiros: # only for documentation but not real ruby code, right?
<sweeper>
the fact that they say 'ruby/rails dev community' makes them invalid :3
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<wald0>
i have a stupid question, why all the sites made with ruby looks much nicer (in design terms) than the ones made in crappy traditional languages ?
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<platzhirsch1>
wald0: Depends on the kind of people using language X
<platzhirsch1>
Ruby = Hipsters, often have a somewhat good taste for design
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<cout>
platzhirsch1: ironic, given their terrible tastes in clothing
<platzhirsch1>
cout: naw, you are wrong :P
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<apeiros>
cout: that's just… like… your opinion, you know? :-p
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<wald0>
Hipsters!
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* wald0
happy to not see anymore the "young fashion" of spain was 15 years ago
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<platzhirsch1>
wald0: you are from Spain?
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<platzhirsch1>
I feel like an idiot looking at all the cover letters I have written last year,.. the text is even worse :P
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<bilbo_swaggins>
platzhirsch: it all depends on how much experience you have entering into it
<benzrf>
it is like cat, but better
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I'll check them all out, but it appears during backup and restoration of my Mint partition, I've borked RVM
<bilbo_swaggins>
somewhatish
<bilbo_swaggins>
oh god and the touchpad is reenabled. Synaptics is the worst
<benzrf>
bilbo_swaggins: why do you want things to be hard for oyu
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I have a good Mentor who just got an internship at Microsoft
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I'd like to get a better career as well
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<bilbo_swaggins>
tech support for scan software is not a great career
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<benzrf>
hah
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<platzhirsch>
bilbo_swaggins: Then hustle :D
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<ldiamond>
I need to debug a curses application. So I need to run the debugger from a different console than the one the program runs in.
<ldiamond>
I'm trying pry and pry-remote, but for some reason I can't get it do do anything useful
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<ldiamond>
I basically added binding.remote_pry to the file I want to debug and I'm attaching using pry-remote
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<mordocai>
Question about variable scope. In this paste http://pastebin.com/M8bRiG0m. Why with line 2 commented out(like it is) I get an error due to x not existing (on line 6), but if that line is not commented out line 6 prints out 4? Also, if both line 2 and 6 are commented out the rest of the code works. So apparently a begin/end (and from other testing if/end and while) will create new variables in parent scope, but .times do (and .each and
<mordocai>
...) wont?
<mordocai>
won't*
<bilbo_swaggins>
platzhirsch: that's why I'm moonlighting as a Rails dev till I can get cooler programming jobs. Sind Sie Deutscher?
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<platzhirsch>
jup
<ldiamond>
[1] pry(main)> break 1610
<ldiamond>
SyntaxError: (eval):2: Can't escape from eval with break
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<MrZYX>
ldiamond: you probably want to add pry-debugger (ruby 1.9.x) or pry-byebug (ruby 2.x) to the mix. I also find pry-stack_explorer handy for debugging
<bilbo_swaggins>
Ich hab' Deutsch in amerikanische Hochschule studiert. Es hast viel zeit gewesen worden.
<apeiros>
klingt amüsant
<apeiros>
probably still better than my english :o)
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<bilbo_swaggins>
haha I have the grammar down pretty well, except as sentences get very complex, but meine Vokabeln ist klein
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<ldiamond>
MrZYX, I'll try that
<bilbo_swaggins>
mordocai: if you define a variable outside of a block and then alter it within the block, the changes are permanent. However, if you define it first within the block, it's not accessible in the parent scope
<mordocai>
bilbo_swaggins: That is not true in the case of begin/end, if/end, and while.
<mordocai>
bilbo_swaggins: Try it yourself
<bilbo_swaggins>
I'm referring only to blocks
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<mordocai>
bilbo_swaggins: Is not begin/end a block then?
<ldiamond>
MrZYX, that's what I was missing
<ldiamond>
thankx
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<MrZYX>
yw
<bilbo_swaggins>
begin marks the start of a exception test. I can't speak authoratively on the matter of scoping related to it, but it is different to be sure
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<mordocai>
bilbo_swaggins: Well. How about if/end? And while do end? Both of those exhibit the same behavior.
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<bilbo_swaggins>
blocks, procs and lambdas have nuanced and purposeful specific scoping cases
<mordocai>
bilbo_swaggins: Read that, doesn't answer my question.
<bilbo_swaggins>
blocks behave differently because they're supposed to
<ferr>
what's your question mordocai
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<mordocai>
bilbo_swaggins: Very informative.
<bilbo_swaggins>
look I answered your question as asked
<bilbo_swaggins>
if you have more to ask, feel free
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<mordocai>
bilbo_swaggins: You may THINK you answered my question, you did not. ferr: Why does scope with begin/end, if/end, and while do end not work like other blocks? As in, if I create a new variable inside one of the aforementioned blocks I can use it in the parent scope. However, in a (for example) 3.times do end that doesn't work.
<mordocai>
bilbo_swaggins: I don't need basic ruby crap, i'm asking about the actual internals of why it works that way. I know very well how it works, I want to know why.
<bilbo_swaggins>
the internals are the basic crap
<Jdubs>
lololol
<mordocai>
bilbo_swaggins: I've read why's poignant guide, it does not answer questions that in depth
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<bilbo_swaggins>
as for why, the first link goes into use cases
<ferr>
lol mordocai
<bilbo_swaggins>
the first one I gave
<ferr>
the answer for why is because it's made up that way
<txdv>
mordocai: what functionality are you discussing?
<bilbo_swaggins>
lambdas have different scope rules than blocks/procs
<bilbo_swaggins>
it's because it's useful
<txdv>
o i see
<Hanmac>
bilbo_swaggins: do...end and {} are not 100% the same ... both have different preference ... (i think one of them was higher than other)
<benzrf>
mordocai: blocks create a new scope because that behavior is most useful and intuitive to people with programming experience who know lambdas and such from other languages
<bilbo_swaggins>
Hanmac: for the purposes of what he was asking, they are essentially
<benzrf>
mordocai: if and while and so on do not create a new scope because it is useful for them not to
<bilbo_swaggins>
Hanmac: but I'd like more info on that myself
<mordocai>
I guess what i'm really asking what is the code incapsulated between if/end, begin/end, and while do/end? Since it doesn't act like a lambda, proc, or block.
<txdv>
ruby blocks and genereal blocks are two different terms
<mordocai>
As far as I can tell
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<benzrf>
mordocai: the code in if/end, begin/end, and while/end is a syntactic block
<benzrf>
mordocai: a different kind of block from what you usually mean when you say a 'block'
<bilbo_swaggins>
mordocai: some call it a block of code, though it's misleading. If is a control structure and the code within it is control logic
<mordocai>
benzrf: Got it, and a syntactic block does NOT have scope in ruby. That makes more sense then. Some languages they do.
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<benzrf>
by syntactic block i mean that the syntactical element is referred to as a block
<benzrf>
that is, the bit between the if and the end is a 'block' of code
<bilbo_swaggins>
it's not a matter of having or not having scope, but rather having scope with different reaches
<bilbo_swaggins>
fair enough
<benzrf>
i do not think there is a general term for all of those
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<benzrf>
control structures I guess
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<ferr>
yes it is
<ferr>
^
<bilbo_swaggins>
I feel iffy about calling the code between "if...end" a control structure, but it's the best I can think of as well
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I figured that referred to the if statement itself
<benzrf>
the if..end as a whole is a control structure
<apeiros>
no, the if/else/end itself is a control structure
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<apeiros>
the code within it is not
<bilbo_swaggins>
alright
<bilbo_swaggins>
ha
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<bilbo_swaggins>
we're debating semantics
<mordocai>
Right, the code within would normally be called a block... except we already defined block to mean something else :P
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<txdv>
mordocai: we are talking about a language where the 'switch' keyword is 'case'
<bilbo_swaggins>
yes it's ambiguous
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<bilbo_swaggins>
however, the context you discuss it within usually resolves that ambiguity
<bilbo_swaggins>
just be aware of it
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<bilbo_swaggins>
even if we could come up with a more specific word, you ought to watch out for people using 'block' to mean both things
<mordocai>
Right
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<bilbo_swaggins>
what are you trying to do, anyway?
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<mordocai>
It was an interesting question that came up at work. Not sure if it has much practical use.
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<txdv>
ofc it has
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<bilbo_swaggins>
A block as received by a method is internally handled as a Proc
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<txdv>
now you can go to work and play the enlightened rubyist to whom everything is obvious
<mordocai>
Lol, right
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I've never had need for the distinction between lambdas and procs, but it must exist for a reason
<benzrf>
oh man i LOVE pretending everything is obvious
<bilbo_swaggins>
and I could see it as a good tool
<mordocai>
bilbo_swaggins: It does, i've had the need once or twice. I always have to look it up
<benzrf>
txdv: ive considered it
<txdv>
stuff that you learned and are teaching to others is always obvious to you and not obvious to others
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<bilbo_swaggins>
lol @ benzrf
<benzrf>
but im not sure i want to get more than a BA or something
<benzrf>
wait ba is the wrong term isnt it
<benzrf>
w/e idk
<bilbo_swaggins>
I'm going to make it without school, you bet your ass
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<bilbo_swaggins>
and I'll work twice as hard as the average BA curriculum demands
<benzrf>
well if i am offered an internship right out of hi school id probably take it
<benzrf>
but i really doubt thatll happen
<benzrf>
so off to college it is
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<txdv>
college is a sad place
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I found it disappointing
<ldiamond>
pry / pry-remote keeps crashing when running curses commands.
<benzrf>
txdv: orly
<bilbo_swaggins>
if I were to go back, I'd study music instead
<txdv>
thats what she said
<bilbo_swaggins>
ohhh
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<ldiamond>
anyone else had such problem?
<txdv>
whats pry
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<bilbo_swaggins>
it's a more powerful irb alternative
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I've been meaning to play with it
<bilbo_swaggins>
can't say I know anything about it though
<txdv>
is it supposed to run with NCURSES?
<bilbo_swaggins>
supposed to or able to?
<txdv>
writing bindings for ncurses was the most annoying thing I ever did
<txdv>
defines everywhere
<txdv>
and external variables
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<shevy>
it's awful
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<mordocai>
txdv: Pry is an alternative to irb btw
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<shevy>
benzrf can't you do college and intern at the same time? with intern during holidays?
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<bilbo_swaggins>
my friend's doing that at Msoft
<bilbo_swaggins>
that exact scenario
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<shevy>
bilbo_swaggins I am also not sure about the distinction between lambdas and procs. I think one allows you to have mandatory arguments, the other not
<shevy>
but it seems an arbitrary distinction to me
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<shevy>
ewww
<shevy>
Microsoft
<shevy>
Excel macro writer!
<txdv>
to me too
<bilbo_swaggins>
I toured the campus
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<bilbo_swaggins>
oh god yeah I don't want to work on Office
<txdv>
why lamda/proc?
<txdv>
we need a blog article to inform us
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<bilbo_swaggins>
however, I'd rather work in research for a company than run a business
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<txdv>
What do you want to research?
<bilbo_swaggins>
if I could get a more advanced role than "code monkey"
<txdv>
aren't private businesses not just an accumulation of code monkeys which are for hire/
<shevy>
bilbo_swaggins well research is never bad, you'll learn a lot of stuff that you can then apply onto business lateron if you still decide to go found a company or work more attached with one
<mordocai>
A lambda can be treated like a value, a proc can't. Basically.
<bilbo_swaggins>
mordocai: you can pass procs around.
<bilbo_swaggins>
not sure what you mean
<shevy>
bilbo_swaggins what kind of AI exactly?
<txdv>
nice, thanks mordocai
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<bilbo_swaggins>
shevy, txdv: honestly I just want to be paid to do what I already do
<shevy>
there are many... some are into neuronal research
<mordocai>
bilbo_swaggins: Maybe better way is to say a lambda doesn't have side effect? (I sound like a haskell programmer...)
<bilbo_swaggins>
spend too much time on Wikipedia, etc
<bilbo_swaggins>
mordocai: I think that was it
<txdv>
O boy I would like that too
<bilbo_swaggins>
they scope differently
<shevy>
with -> you can also do lambdas
<bilbo_swaggins>
I'll learn about neural nets, sure, and I've made a simple implementation
<shevy>
this will make your code very ugly
<platzhirsch>
A lambda in lambda calculus yes, a lambda in Ruby no ^^
<mordocai>
Yeah, they scope differently and a return in a lambda doesn't end the calling function. Does in a proc
<mordocai>
Here we go "The answer is in the conceptual differences between procedures and methods. Procs in Ruby are drop in code snippets, not methods. Because of this, the Proc return is the proc_return method’s return, and acts accordingly. Lambdas however act just like methods, as they check the number of arguments and do not override the calling methods return. For this reason, it is best to think of lambdas as another way to write methods,
<mordocai>
an anonymous way at that"
<bilbo_swaggins>
but I decided to start programming when a card game I was designing got more and more complex to the point of requiring some basic economy and machine learning >.>
<shevy>
bilbo_swaggins well neural networks are rather boring, they always did sound like a poor man's substitute for real intelligence you could even see in a simple fly already
<bilbo_swaggins>
they can't reason, only identify
<shevy>
yeah
<txdv>
so you were right with the 'less side effects'
<bilbo_swaggins>
which is cool enough, but there's got to be more to explore
<shevy>
they are like fancified pattern recognition... input, output, like in a factory, but no real intelligent, driven decision making process
<bilbo_swaggins>
also they're complete black boxes past a certain size
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<bilbo_swaggins>
true of everything I suppose, though
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<txdv>
but flies are awesome
<txdv>
i would like to have a controllable fly
<bilbo_swaggins>
bees are the shit
<txdv>
O yeah
<txdv>
reminds me of the B prank
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<bilbo_swaggins>
if a bee keeps returning to the hive drunk on fermented fruit, he'll get a warning, which escalates eventually to having his legs bitten off by the guards
<txdv>
the letter B can scare the shit out of people
<bilbo_swaggins>
I grew up in a house with a pool, near an abandoned bee farm
<bilbo_swaggins>
if you're calm, they're totally cool
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<bilbo_swaggins>
if you freak out, they feel threatened and attack
<bilbo_swaggins>
I've stood in small swarms of them
<bilbo_swaggins>
wasps, however, are dicks
<shevy>
bilbo_swaggins sounds like straight from a horror movie
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<shevy>
when I was like 5 years old, I had nightmares from movies like "arachnophobia" or something, where they spiders cast their web all around a house and trapped the humans inside
<txdv>
bees are like 'o what is this, I want to explore'
<txdv>
wasps are like 'o what is this, i want to sting this motherfucker'
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<bilbo_swaggins>
^
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I've let daddy longlegs crawl on me. I don't think it's good to fear harmless things.
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<bilbo_swaggins>
speaking of AI, bug behavior is fascinating when viewed through a computational lense
<e62>
bilbo_swaggins: I read that as "buggy behavior" and could not figure out what that meant.
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<shevy>
I love those japanese bees (or more, hornets) - they are smaller than those in Mexico I suppose but rely on teamwork, killing invaders by thermal shock (covering the body of an invader in masses and thus causing heat increase to it)
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<bilbo_swaggins>
damn
<bilbo_swaggins>
group hug!
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<shevy>
ants are cool. it's like little objects communicating with one another!
<shevy>
and the pheromones are like the messages passed along
<txdv>
i have the ultimate theory
<bilbo_swaggins>
they're simple enough to abstract well
<txdv>
that computers are just inventions which reflected humans
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<shevy>
bilbo_swaggins yeah, it's rather awesome. so small but really efficient in what little they do
<txdv>
since ants are living beings as well, they are just simpler
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<txdv>
the environment is just different
<txdv>
in our programming world it is bits and bytes
<txdv>
in the real world it is every possible chemical combination that can be exploited for specific usage
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<bilbo_swaggins>
computation is actually a ubiquitous property of the universe. Physics is a matter of information being transformed in accordance with its laws, a computation in a broad sense. From there, evolution is a computation. Move to insects and you're getting pretty complex, but the details of physics fall by the wayside on relevant scales. We are merely reinventing and discovering all which already exists.
<bilbo_swaggins>
Even the most abstract mathematics seems to find a niche of applicability.
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<bilbo_swaggins>
some physicists seriously consider that on a small enough scale, everything is discrete
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<shevy>
txdv yeah. chemistry is cool. it provides information (the structure of molecules especially organic compounds, linear sequence found in polymers of DNA nucleotides) and also provides energy for biochemical reactions (the nucleotides found in DNA can also be used for energy mostly due to the phosphor bonds at one end, i.e. in ATP molecule but also GTP etc..)
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<bilbo_swaggins>
It is quite a leap to deduce that continuousness exists in a real sense from the granular levels of reality we have been able to experience
<txdv>
this means these physics would accept the possibility that the universe is a computer simulation?
<shevy>
bilbo_swaggins my problem with physics was that I always sucked in math, especially when it became complex or abstract :(
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<bilbo_swaggins>
shevy: molecbiology is the coolest science
<shevy>
yeah
<bilbo_swaggins>
txdv: in a trivial sense, everything is a simulation of itself implemented on itself
<shevy>
and it's cool and interesting to read. it is so much harder to study math especially when it is boring
<txdv>
in school i never sucked at math, but my father always said that they don't teach people math in school
<bilbo_swaggins>
shevy: everyone sucks at math
<shevy>
a few don't! hehe
<bilbo_swaggins>
txdv: oh lord no they dont
<txdv>
my father was a mathematician
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<bilbo_swaggins>
those who are driven to understand the mathematics will keep trying till they do
<txdv>
probability theory on objects which have infinite dimensions and shit
<shevy>
I guess it depends on the type of school a lot as well
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<bilbo_swaggins>
MiT students are magically gifted so much as masochistically hard workers
<bilbo_swaggins>
aren't*
<apeiros>
that's a gift too
<bilbo_swaggins>
txdv: I keep putting down math and coming back to it
<bilbo_swaggins>
I wanted to be a physicist from age 8 to 18
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<bilbo_swaggins>
but you need to be a good student
<e62>
bilbo_swaggins: Have you tried picking it back up in the context of comp sci?
<e62>
bilbo_swaggins: That really helped me quite a bit.
<txdv>
yeah
<bilbo_swaggins>
comp sci has helped
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<bilbo_swaggins>
it made it easier to think of physical processes as specific mathematical algorithms
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<bilbo_swaggins>
and vectors, spaces, etc are just data structures
<txdv>
reminds me of the book 'permutation city'
<bilbo_swaggins>
also, we choose to define mathematics the way we do, with the axioms we do, merely because it's useful
<bilbo_swaggins>
I *love* permutations
<txdv>
well, the title is not representitive of the book
<txdv>
its a sci-fi book about simulation
<txdv>
simulating worlds and stuff
<shevy>
bilbo_swaggins yeah
<shevy>
bilbo_swaggins programming seemed simpler than maths in school
<shevy>
it's all about data structures
<txdv>
I think it is simpler because you can 'thouch it'
<txdv>
change a line, run it, look what happens
<shevy>
right and you get results back
<bilbo_swaggins>
a common assumption is that programming is heavily mathy
<bilbo_swaggins>
I think the inverse is true
<shevy>
dunno
<shevy>
would you say there is more math in ruby or in haskell?
<txdv>
these are programming languages you are talking about
<e62>
bilbo_swaggins: Depends on how you wield the tool
<bilbo_swaggins>
I think you are free to build the math from the parts given to you by the language
<shevy>
how do you wanna do programming without a language ;)
<bilbo_swaggins>
turing machines
<txdv>
TO FORGE BOTH LANGUAGES a lot of applied math was used
<bilbo_swaggins>
e62: or the angle you view it from
<txdv>
parsers and stuff, everything is just applied math
<e62>
bilbo_swaggins: Yeah, like you can't really escape boolean logic and basic arthimatic...
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<bilbo_swaggins>
if you accept logic, control structures, etc as math, then yes, it's all math
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<bilbo_swaggins>
matter of definitions
<txdv>
e62: with quantum bits you can! somehow
<e62>
lol
<e62>
That sounds like an outlier to me :P
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<bilbo_swaggins>
you *have* to be both a physicist and comscientist to understand those arcane voodoo manipulators
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<bilbo_swaggins>
an example: someone who "solves" some crazy hard problem like creating a grand unified theory of physics without learning any of the actual math
<bilbo_swaggins>
some brilliant people are also crackpots
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<txdv>
well i didn't solve anything, i'm just talking about it
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<workmad3>
bilbo_swaggins: I have a lovely GUT that I'm just working some bits through before I publish it :P
<bilbo_swaggins>
I have tremendous respect for Sir Roger Penrose, mathematician, but he also has some nonmainstream, bizarre ideas that the brain uses quantum mechanical effects to achieve consciousness. I can't disprove that, but it's certainly an odd belief.
<bilbo_swaggins>
txdv: I didn't mean to refer to you
<workmad3>
bilbo_swaggins: it ties together all of physics and only requires the supposition that unicorns exist
<bilbo_swaggins>
well that's 2 fewer than mine
<bilbo_swaggins>
by occam's razor, it must be true
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<workmad3>
bilbo_swaggins: Penrose's theory is that the brain relies on quantum gravitational effects
<workmad3>
bilbo_swaggins: on the idea (as far as I can tell) that consciousness isn't understood and neither is quantum gravity...
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<workmad3>
unfortunately (for him, I think) he published it... and is now kinda stuck with it haunting him
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<bilbo_swaggins>
genius isn't magic, but hard work, trial and error, and at best a guiding intuition that others don't have
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<bilbo_swaggins>
he's also been knighted for his contributions to mathematics, so I think he's doing alright :P
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<bilbo_swaggins>
have you read much of his writing?
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<workmad3>
only one I've managed to get through is The Emperor's New Mind
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I learned real calculus from The Road to Reality and put the book down for years
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I've only recently decided to give it another go, because I'm insane
<workmad3>
I've also got Cycles of Time on the bookshelf and Road to Reality on my bedside table (underneath 'Theoretical Physics', 'Tensors, Differential Forms and Variational Theory', 'Further Maths for the Physical Sciences' and 'Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns')
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<workmad3>
bilbo_swaggins: I keep on doing that with R2R
<bilbo_swaggins>
ah yes, the bookstack that we all have
<bilbo_swaggins>
it's fantastically well written
<bilbo_swaggins>
but I am not as smart as I'd like to be
<workmad3>
bilbo_swaggins: one of these days... I guess the warning sign was that I first learned about it when a uni friend mentioned it... as a course book on his masters level physics course
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<bilbo_swaggins>
the issue for me is that I can't decide on studying *one* thing. I've come to terms with that, however
<workmad3>
just browse? :)
<bilbo_swaggins>
I'll make my way as I make it and so be it
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<workmad3>
I'm on a bit of a maths binge atm... just finished a book on discrete maths (intro book to refresh myself on some things)
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<bilbo_swaggins>
yeah, there's too much cool stuff in this universe to decide you aren't going to study anything outside of a narrow field
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<bilbo_swaggins>
which book?
<workmad3>
then got a maths and physics book @ christmas but they quickly bring up determinants and I couldn't remember them
<bilbo_swaggins>
Discrete Mathematics for New Technology is a great one
<workmad3>
Discrete Mathematics for Computation
<bilbo_swaggins>
determinants are weird
<bilbo_swaggins>
isn't that the name of the operation used for filling each cell in a matrix?
<workmad3>
yeah, just read the chapter on them in Further Maths for the Physical Sciences
<bilbo_swaggins>
It never clicked why they are as they are
<workmad3>
no, it's the name of the operation that turns a square matrix into a single value
<bilbo_swaggins>
I know "because it's useful", but I'd like to see how people derived their usefulness
<workmad3>
based on co-factors
<bilbo_swaggins>
ah
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<workmad3>
but basically, the determinant of a matrix is equal to the vector cross product (if you set the top row of the matrix to the unit vectors of your basis)
<workmad3>
or the scalar triple product, and some other things
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<bilbo_swaggins>
so cross product, then cross product again along the other axis?
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<workmad3>
scalar triple product is a . b x c
<bilbo_swaggins>
I found permutation groups more interesting and learned those before linear algebra
<workmad3>
vector triple product is a x b x c
<bilbo_swaggins>
okay. I'd need a true resource.
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<workmad3>
well, (a x b) x c or a x (b x c) (seeing as the order matters and it's equal precedence :) )
<bilbo_swaggins>
I'm sure R2R brings it up eventually
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<workmad3>
not sure it does
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I thought physics used like... all the math
<workmad3>
R2R kinda jumps onto tensors quickly, which is something I've never managed to grok
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<bilbo_swaggins>
is that the diagrams that look like a game of DDR?
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<workmad3>
those might just be vector fields :)
<bilbo_swaggins>
or the ones which look like circuits :P
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<workmad3>
circuits, I think
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I picked up that book because I was fascinated with how arcane it was
<bilbo_swaggins>
like it was things not meant to be known
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<workmad3>
Further Maths for Physical Sciences at least helped me with what a vector field is though :)
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<workmad3>
which should hopefully help when I rotate back to R2R
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I'm determined to grok the Schroedinger equation if I die with pen in hand
<workmad3>
it also has a section on path and surface integrals which I'm getting up to after matrices... never really looked at the book before (despite it being a first year textbook on my course :$)
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<bilbo_swaggins>
you're a physics major, eh?
<workmad3>
nope
<workmad3>
should have said it *was* a first year textbook
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<workmad3>
and I was on a Computer Science course
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<workmad3>
been out for almost 6 years now :)
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<workmad3>
so... 10 years on, and I just got around to cracking open a book I bought in my first year :D
<bilbo_swaggins>
ha I'm 25 and I can only call myself an intellectual drifter
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I'll get around to a lot of things
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<workmad3>
I went on a rationality and physics binge last year, that was fun :)
<bilbo_swaggins>
I recently got through Goedel's first Incompleteness Theorem. I've picked it up multiple times over the last two years. And even then there were parts where I accepted certain assumptions when I got the greater picture.. Do not attempt this. It's not worth it.
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<workmad3>
should probably pick up on those lesswrong sequences again at some point...
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I found their IRC community jarring
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<workmad3>
yeah, I didn't jump into the community, just read the main sequences
<bilbo_swaggins>
but I know another guy who can't get enough
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<workmad3>
still getting my head around some of it, but it was a bit of an eye opener in terms of just how sophisticated rationality really is
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I'm more interested in what can't be proven, computed or known.
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<bilbo_swaggins>
It would be a cruel joke nature's playing if P=NP? is unprovable
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<bilbo_swaggins>
there's something to be said for intuition, I think
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<workmad3>
sure, as long as you're aware of and correct for known biases in how human intuition works when possible
<workmad3>
and as long as you tune your intuition
<workmad3>
and are well aware of its limits :)
<bilbo_swaggins>
and oh! the biases
<bilbo_swaggins>
rationality and intuition work together beautifully
<workmad3>
in many ways, the study of rationality is (nowadays) the study of probability and cognitive biases
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<workmad3>
in the form of 'how can we arrive at correct conclusions even when our neural machinery is actively working against us?'
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<bilbo_swaggins>
lesswrong is so cynical
<bilbo_swaggins>
brains do pretty well for themselves
<workmad3>
I dunno, I'd say it's pretty optimistic
<bilbo_swaggins>
especially taking into consideration their original use-case
<workmad3>
as it's assuming that we can actually achieve that :)
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<workmad3>
and yeah, they do pretty well... but they could do so much better!
<bilbo_swaggins>
that's what the internet is for
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<bilbo_swaggins>
and I, for one, welcome strong AI
<workmad3>
Tsuyoku naritai! is probably one of the most optimistic calls to arms I've come across, from lesswrong
<workmad3>
Tsuyoku naritai! I want to be stronger!
<bilbo_swaggins>
oh god
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I read "Friendship is optimal"
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<workmad3>
hehe
<bilbo_swaggins>
I never meant to read a my little pony fanfic
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<bilbo_swaggins>
but it was an exception to be sure
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<workmad3>
bilbo_swaggins: at least it wasn't a my little pony slash fiction...
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* bilbo_swaggins
passes
<workmad3>
that just (randomly) reminded me though... I have a book on my shelf that I really should read at some point
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<workmad3>
and I know it's going to be awful... but still
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<workmad3>
Star Trek TNG
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<workmad3>
and the X-Men...
<workmad3>
crossover novel!!!
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<bilbo_swaggins>
that's intriguingly horrifying
<workmad3>
picked it up in a charity shop a couple of years ago
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<workmad3>
I was 'wtf? why does this book have data and wolverine on the cover? wow!!!'
<bilbo_swaggins>
the only fiction I've read in a long time, having had been an avid reader as a kid, is the Girl With The Dragon Tattoo series
<bilbo_swaggins>
and only then because I like Lisbeth
<workmad3>
I tend to get through a fair bit of fiction
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<workmad3>
I should probably get to bed tbh...
<workmad3>
bilbo_swaggins: going back to the original thing about quantum computers - lesswrong has a sequence on non-mysterious Quantum Mechanics that was a pretty interesting read too :)
<workmad3>
if you're interested in a bit of physics
<txdv>
isn't this the book where the author died and then the book got popular?
<bilbo_swaggins>
yes
<txdv>
with the movie
<bilbo_swaggins>
and I will read more R2R
<txdv>
i didntwatch the movie
<txdv>
because i dont want to spoil thebook
<txdv>
but i usually read only scifi
<bilbo_swaggins>
I didn't like the movie for the usual reasons + it being too dark to enjoy actually seeing
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<txdv>
usually only ... i tend to favour scifi books
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<txdv>
the usual reason for the movie sucking is that the story gets compressed into 2 hours
<workmad3>
sci fi & fantasy for me
<txdv>
harry potter is the best example
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<txdv>
7 movies, still feels compressed, like watching split scenes from the book
<workmad3>
txdv: I dunno... I think them turning harry into a coward that hid under the stairs while dumbledore was killed was also a major point of suckage...
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<txdv>
snape killed dumbledore
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<txdv>
i rememer a shitty video on youtube on the event when that book came out
<workmad3>
txdv: book - harry is frozen by a total body paralysis charm under the invisibility cloak and can't do anything, but wanted to
<txdv>
it was a white version of a drive by shooting
<workmad3>
txdv: film - he stands under the stairs and does nothing...
<workmad3>
he can... but he doesn't...
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<txdv>
some guys in a car driving past a bookstore shouting "snape killed dumbledore"
<workmad3>
hehe
<bilbo_swaggins>
and some chick saying "nooooo! you bitch! youuuu biiiiiiitch!"
<txdv>
its funny because she is female and the people shouting it are male
<workmad3>
I remember going out and buying two copies on the day of release (for me and my wife) and being finished by about mid-afternoon :)
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<bilbo_swaggins>
it's funny in a very petty schadenfreude kind of way
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<txdv>
i read the first 3 or 4 when I was in school
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<workmad3>
anyway, almost midnight, really should be off to bed
<workmad3>
hf
<txdv>
yeah
<txdv>
wife be mad and shit
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<workmad3>
not yet, but give it another 10 mins and no doubt she will be
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<bilbo_swaggins>
night then
<txdv>
bilbo_swaggins: yeah, imagine, these people where standing in line until 12 oclock so they could buy the book and rush reading
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<bilbo_swaggins>
how did they get access to the books before everyone else?
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<txdv>
time zones and shit
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<bilbo_swaggins>
ah the same reason workmad3 is going to bed at 4pm
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<txdv>
i hate that 12h system
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<bilbo_swaggins>
so do I
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I also wish the US used metric
<bilbo_swaggins>
but you cant always get what you want
<psst>
Can anyone suggest why {puts p} would do nothing while {puts p.to_s} would print the value returned by to_s?
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<bilbo_swaggins>
p is an alias for puts
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<bilbo_swaggins>
I'm not sure how redifining it would affect things
<txdv>
do you live in the us?
<bilbo_swaggins>
California
<txdv>
nerd central station of the world
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<psst>
oh - I'll use some other variable
<bilbo_swaggins>
psst when you call puts, the object passed in should automatically be converted to a string
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<bilbo_swaggins>
no matter the object
<bilbo_swaggins>
so try with a different name and let us know how it goes
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<bnagy>
you can overload p
<txdv>
is there snow in cali?
<bilbo_swaggins>
thankfully none where I am
<bilbo_swaggins>
but in the mountains, yes
<psst>
I changed my local variable to proj. Same result.
<bilbo_swaggins>
interesting
<bilbo_swaggins>
can you show more of the code?
<bnagy>
psst: if whatever is in that var prints as nothing ( eg blank string ) you'll see nothing
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<bnagy>
some stuff has specific to_s
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<bilbo_swaggins>
is p a method or a variable in your code?
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<psst>
variable
<txdv>
you can overload the to_s method and puts won't use the overload?