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<anannie>
I'm learning rails and I have a strange question, why do databases discourage many to many relationships? Is there a practical reason as to why a dataset with several many to many relationships should be avoided?
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<judofyr>
anannie: what do you mean by "discourage"?
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<anannie>
judofyr: Hey there :) || Apparently to implement a many to many relationship in a lot of databases you need to use a third "junction" table. To quote wikipedia; "Because most database management systems only support one-to-many relationships, it is necessary to implement such relationships physically via a third junction table (also called cross-reference table), say, AB with two one-to-many...
<anannie>
...relationships A -> AB and B -> AB. In this case the logical primary key for AB is formed from the two foreign keys (i.e. copies of the primary keys of A and B)."
<judofyr>
anannie: yeah, that's just the way you have to do it. it isn't strictly discouraged, you just have to be explicit about the relationships
<anannie>
judofyr: May I ask why?
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<judofyr>
anannie: well, this is only in relational databases. the only way to link something in a relational database is to have a row that contains two different IDs that you want to link together
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<judofyr>
anannie: you can e.g. implement one-to-many using a junction table too
* anannie
nods
<anannie>
This tangential, but I'm reading something and the author mentions that it was difficult for them to create something due to many to many relationships in their dataset. Are there any practical issues over here that I should be aware of?
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<judofyr>
not quite sure what they're hinting to
<injekt>
join tables ftw
<judofyr>
but many-to-many is complex no matter what database structure you have (relational, graph, document)
<yorickpeterse>
joins are not webscale
<injekt>
ur mom is not webscale
<judofyr>
injekt: woah. I was *just* about to say that :)
<anannie>
Meh, I probably don't understand this in detail. I'm sorry that if I'm wasting your time. I'll go back and read more until I get this thing right.
<injekt>
judofyr: <3
<yorickpeterse>
injekt: at least mine is not big and well known
<anannie>
thank you judofyr
<injekt>
yorickpeterse: :D
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<injekt>
man I hate running csv import tasks
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<yfeldblum>
what's the best way to talk to a *local* postgresql using ident auth? can this be done with the "pg" gem?
<yfeldblum>
not talking about connecting to a remote server, or a remote client connecting to this server; this is like `sudo -u postgres psql` except from ruby
<gnufied>
yep
<yfeldblum>
gnufied, is that to me?
<gnufied>
yfeldblum: yes
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<zzak>
hai
<injekt>
hai
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<yfeldblum>
gnufied, would you know what the required options would be to `PG::Connection.new`? would i also need to change the process's uid?
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<yorickpeterse>
Semantics question:
<yorickpeterse>
a JSON object is lacking a required key, do I raise TypeError or ArgumentError?
<andrewvos>
yorickpeterse: use #fetch
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<andrewvos>
{}.fetch(:my_key) #=> KeyError: key not found: :my_key
<yorickpeterse>
Hmm, that's actually a pretty good idea
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<andrewvos>
"actually"?
<yorickpeterse>
shut up Richard hammond
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<whitequark>
what's with 'actually'?
<andrewvos>
he thinks all my ideas are stupid
<yfeldblum>
yorickpeterse, since it's JSON, it's probably coming from the outside world; since it's coming from outside, maybe your parser should raise its own exception type
* andrewvos
cries
<yorickpeterse>
yfeldblum: nah, it's for an internal project (a build server to be specific)
<gnufied>
yfeldblum: looks like I spoke too soon, I just checked high and low and pg gem doesn't seem to have a way of using ident authentication. sorry. i must have been confused with something else.
<yfeldblum>
gnufied, ah, thanks anyway
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<gnufied>
yfeldblum: I suspect pg gem doesn't allow to connect without username anyways but if it can be tweaked to allow that, then it should be possible isn't it?
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<gnufied>
all we need is, to be able to determine user that is trying to make the connection
<gnufied>
I am confused as ever, this seems like worth trying and figuring out. as long as postgres can find the OS user and have that user in its mapping file it should wor
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<gnufied>
work*
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<gnufied>
there is no explicit option in pg gem
<yfeldblum>
gnufied, i shall try!
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<ddd>
gnufied: its in the pg_hba.conf. You can use 'ident' as a rule for access. gimme a sec and I'll post the sample they have
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<ddd>
if you've access to a mac with homebrew installed and postgresql 9.2.x, look at /usr/local/Cellar/postgresql/9.2.2/share/postgresql/pg_hba.conf.sample
<ddd>
if not gimme a minute and I'll post the same, not sure if this is exactly what you want, but it might lead you to something that does, possible
<ddd>
err possibly even
<yfeldblum>
ddd, the question relates to the pg gem specifically
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<gnufied>
ddd: there is no problem. all mischief managed.
<ddd>
oh. ok. think i misunderstood then. thought you wanted postgres to use ident which gets passed in via the pg gem's connection setup
<ddd>
gnufied: hahaha. nice potter reference
<gnufied>
we were basically looking if pg gem has an explicit option, but we (me & yfeldblum) realized we don't need an option and ultimately it worked.
<ddd>
no problem. sorry if i misread
<yfeldblum>
gnufied, well except that the ruby process is running as root & not as postgres
<zzak>
ged: ping
<yfeldblum>
gnufied, i wonder if i can drop the euid temporarily, open the connection, and then bring the euid back to root
<zzak>
maybe ged can help you two
<eam>
yfeldblum: probably makes more sense to add a field allowing root to auth as the postgres user
<ddd>
back to this awesome cup of coffee made by a Keureg machine. Amazing how well a machine can be made to make taht damned good cup of coffee you're always seeking.
<eam>
in pg_hba.conf
<gnufied>
yfeldblum: you can create a non-privileged user and add that user to pg config file and then login as that user then it need not run as user
<yfeldblum>
eam, that sounds less weird
<ddd>
eam: thats what i was thinking needed to be done. whether explicitly or implicitly passed, the pg_hba.conf is the definitive access control
<eam>
that's what I do for my administrative stuff that needs to be root, and also needs to work administering pg
<ddd>
and psql supports ident, so.. but it appears i was misreading the need
<yfeldblum>
ddd, i need to sysadminify a local postgres from a ruby program running as root
<yfeldblum>
ddd, create users & tables & so on
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<eam>
yfeldblum: if you do want to drop privs, I recommend the elvis gem
<eam>
it'll set both uid / euid
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<ddd>
yfeldblum: gotcha.
<ddd>
oops wife calling. back later
<yfeldblum>
eam, no, i don't want to drop privileges; i want the process to continue running as root, but be able to sysadminify the local postgres
<eam>
yfeldblum: yeah I understand, it will restore root after running a block
<eam>
it relies on saved uid
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<yfeldblum>
eam, adding a mapping to the ident file seems like a good approach too
<eam>
I use it a lot in this kind of situation
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<yfeldblum>
eam, ident mapping or elvis?
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<eam>
elvis, for stuff running as root needing to temporarily become another user (when euid isn't sufficient)
<eam>
I think SO_PEERCRED gives you the real uid, for example
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<yfeldblum>
eam, if you have a line like "host all all 192.168.0.0/16 ident map=omicron" in pg_hba.conf, does allow any user to auth, or does that only allow users to auth which appear in pg_ident.conf under the map name of "omicron"?
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* whitequark
feels he needs to be high on something in order to understand postgres config
<whitequark>
usually, I just pester our DBA until he does it himself
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<antbody>
Postgres configuration on drugs, would probably be interesting.
<bougyman>
the latter, yfeldblum
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<bougyman>
ident map is weird for a remote host
<bougyman>
md5 auth is what you normally see for tcp connections, and hostssl, not just host
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, i'm trying to connect to a local-machine (not remote) postgres from the "pg" ruby client, from a ruby scrip running as root, to do sysadminy stuff like make users and databases
<bougyman>
oh
<bougyman>
look for the 'localhost' line in your pg_hba.conf
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<bougyman>
or lines
<bougyman>
probably is 'trust'
<bougyman>
which means you just need to pass user: 'postgres' to your connection string.
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, only root should be able to do that
<bougyman>
not if it's 'trust'
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, i only want root (and postgres) to be able to authenticate to postgres and do sysadminy things
<bougyman>
root is not in any way special or an admit to the postgres system.
<bougyman>
su - postgres
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<bougyman>
that is the postgres DBA account.
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, i want to do this from a ruby script running as root
<bougyman>
understood.
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, using the "pg" gem
<bougyman>
so put root in the ident map, or create a user named 'root' in your db with superuser privs.
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, my current thinking (HT eam) is that if i map root to postgres in pg_ident.conf, that would work
<bougyman>
or use md5 and create a user.
<bougyman>
yfeldblum: depends on what the 'localhost' lines are in your pg_hba.conf
<bougyman>
that line you pasted earlier would never get hit, for a local connection
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, it would be a unix domain socket line
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, i was only asking about the semantics of "ident map=omicron", not the semantics of the rest of the line
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, because the docs i as reading didn't explain it
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, it would be something like "local all postgres ident map=root" in pg_hba.conf and "root root postgres" in pg_ident.conf
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<yfeldblum>
bougyman, i don't need md5 or for this user to login over TCP/SSL sockets; it's just a ruby program running as root sysadminifying the local postgres
<bougyman>
yfeldblum: for 'local' connections (unix sockets), specifying 'ident' will use 'peer'
<bougyman>
but it will still use an ident map.
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, what's that mean?
<yfeldblum>
bougyman, peer
<bougyman>
it meant it uses the getpeerid() system call.
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<ged>
yfeldblum, gnufied: I'm here now. Catching up on the log.
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<yfeldblum>
bougyman, ah because `local` uses unix domain sockets
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<yfeldblum>
bougyman, unfortunately that doesn't appear to be working for me
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<ged>
Domain sockets use the permissions of the device in the filesystem for access control. You can set up a user for 'root' and grant that role the permissions it needs.
<ged>
Or even better: create an 'admin' role with those permissions, and do 'GRANT admin TO root'.
<ged>
That way you can delegate the same permissions to other roles if you need to
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<yfeldblum>
ged, i only need to sysadmin the local postgres from a ruby script running as root
<ged>
Yes, so I gathered.
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<ged>
And my advice is tailored to that requirement.
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<yfeldblum>
ged, that requires sysadminifying postgres to setup the user or role and setup the grant
<yfeldblum>
ged, and i'd like to do all the sysadminifying from the ruby program running as root ... so this gets to be circular
<ged>
yfeldblum: True. So connect and specify the 'postgres' user when you connect.
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<yfeldblum>
ged, when i've set up the pg_hba.conf and pg_ident.conf like the above and run `service postgresql reload` and run (as root) `psql --username postgres` i just get "psql: FATAL: Ident authentication failed for user "postgres""
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<yfeldblum>
ged, i'm wondering if i missed something
<ged>
That means it's not connecting using the unix socket.
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<ged>
Try setting PGHOST=/directory/your/socket/lives/in before connecting.
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<yfeldblum>
psql: FATAL: Ident authentication failed for user "postgres"
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<judofyr>
yfeldblum: or try -hlocalhost to connect through a TCP socket
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<yfeldblum>
judofyr, i do not want this to be allowable over any network interfaces, just local domain socket, and just root
<judofyr>
oh
<judofyr>
sorry
<judofyr>
I just jumped in :)
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<ged>
If you have 'local all all trust', and then set the socket to be accessable only to root, you don't need an ident at all.
<yfeldblum>
judofyr, i want to sysadmin a local postgres as the root user, without using sudo or changing euid etc, and allow normal network connections for db users
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<free_slave>
can you please advise me , where can i find chalenges to learn ruby by practice
<ged>
I've never once used ident in eight years of using postgres.
<eam>
ged: and I find that hard to believe -- most postgres setups including the __default__ in most distributions use ident to allow the postgres unix user to become the postgres superuser
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<ged>
eam: I can't speak for the suitablity or correctness of defaults in distributions, but the pg_hba.conf in the manual, for example, doesn't use ident for local connections.
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<eam>
you seem to be implying that the manual's example is intended for real world use? The one with "local all all trust"?
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<Ridders24>
how do I get anemone to scape other urls outside of the provided domain?
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<ged>
eam: Sure. If you set the permissions of the socket appropriately, what's wrong with that?
<eam>
I'm being trolled
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<ged>
Erm, sure. In the situation under discussion, when you're trying to script provisioning of a new database, and you need to connect initially as root, that's a perfectly reasonable (initial) setup.
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<eam>
I'm discussing an ongoing, permenent setting
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<ged>
After you have roles set up which allow you to connect using md5 or whatever, change pg_hba.conf accordingly.
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<eam>
a common and reasonable use of ident is to let the postgres user become the database superuser -- because it can directly write to the database files anyway, so inserting an auth token is generally nonsense
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<eam>
the same is true of root
<ged>
eam: Okay, I was mistakenly assuming you were discussing the situation at hand.
<eam>
that is also the situation at hand, as it was described
<eam>
"script running as root wants to become the superuser in the db"
<ged>
Okay, excellent. Carry on.
<eam>
yfeldblum: I just took a look at one of my setups, it appears what I did was create another superuser role called "root" rather than use pg_ident to map root => postgres
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<banisterfiend>
yorickpeterse: then your'e looking at class-insatnce relationships, not ancestor relationships
<banisterfiend>
and that's why your diagram is confusing
<banisterfiend>
cos it mixes up the two concepts
<yorickpeterse>
Put it this way:
<yorickpeterse>
I want a visual way of seeing the entire ancestor tree of constant X
<TTilus>
how would it be a tree?
<banisterfiend>
yes, but you have a fuzzy definition of 'ancestor' that seems to combine both class-instance and subclass-superclass
<TTilus>
it is a list
<banisterfiend>
in a way that doesn't make sense IMO
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<yorickpeterse>
TTilus: because.....it's a tree of something at the top connected to something at the bottom?
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<yorickpeterse>
The actual ancestors are a list yes, but the way you show them it becomes a tree
<whitequark>
wat
<TTilus>
yorickpeterse: i don't, you might :)
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<TTilus>
yorickpeterse: if you are treating ancestor lists as kinda linked lists and combining them fromdifferent classas to single graph, you are making a mess
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<yorickpeterse>
linked lists? wtf?
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<TTilus>
yorickpeterse: and you need to decide if you want to visualize .instance_of? or .is_a?
<TTilus>
yorickpeterse: from ancestors [a, b, c] did you draw a -> b -> c or a -> b, a -> c