<wpwrak>
because if one side was completely flat, it would be relatively easy to mill. if both sides need to be milled, then it gets hard, though, since perfect alignment is hard to archive with lesser mills
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, the upper side is completely flat except for the rounding of edges
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly where the kbd sits
<DocScrutinizer05>
this however could get done even manually
<DocScrutinizer05>
if everything else fails
<DocScrutinizer05>
or you do it with a "atari-sign"-shaped mill
<DocScrutinizer05>
the inverse function of a half ball
<DocScrutinizer05>
so you can undercut
<wpwrak>
that sounds good. a bit of manual smoothing is quite acceptable (and normal) for prototyping
<wpwrak>
i guess there is no real-life prototype of that structure yet, is there ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's the original kbd frame though
<DocScrutinizer05>
which we will replace
<DocScrutinizer05>
I also pondered to add a structure that takes the existing frame, but that's probably cumbersome
<DocScrutinizer05>
I dunno if we can do casts once we got a proper prototype
<DocScrutinizer05>
in resin
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess for a few hundred it's better to mill every single one from proper surdy acryl or whatever
<wpwrak>
low-quality injection molding should cost only a few kEUR. but then, i'm not sure what quality to expect.
<DocScrutinizer05>
luckily we need no "concave" corners
<wpwrak>
yes, undercuts have a tendency of making things considerably more interesting :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have a few L structures but only Z axis
<wpwrak>
you mean L-shaped slots in the XY plane ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly not
<DocScrutinizer05>
in XY plane we got not a singe one
<DocScrutinizer05>
we got steps
<wpwrak>
so the Ls are "on their back" ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
but thise are easy to do with e.g. a cylindrical mill
<DocScrutinizer05>
these*
<wpwrak>
yes, steps are no problem
<wpwrak>
what can be a problem is if there's not enough space for the mill to pass
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually everybody does steps all the time when milling
<wpwrak>
e.g., wall, 1 mm wide 5 mm deep valley, another wall
<DocScrutinizer05>
not on spacer frame
<wpwrak>
good
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a pretty simple thing to CNC, I guess
<wpwrak>
well, when i get some parts, i can see if my mill can handle it. would be the first proper DIY spare part :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
what's nasty is that we have a smal 3..5mm high wall at the outside, and an rather huge area in the inside that needs to get milled down to a material thickness of <1mm
<wpwrak>
that only takes a bit of time :)
<wpwrak>
and 3.5 mm isn't all that tall anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
but that's not much differend to your transparent acrylic "pots" you did
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<wpwrak>
yes, these were much worse
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually it's quite identical, coming to think about it
<wpwrak>
good :)
<dos1>
"project ara" prototype was demoed at google io a few hours ago
<DocScrutinizer05>
just larger, and with a apperture or two cut into the "top"
<dos1>
it was shown booting android
<dos1>
and that was actually it, cause it hanged at the end of boot :)
<wpwrak>
ah, what are the total dimensions ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
whatever might be project ara
<dos1>
motorola/google phonebloks
<wpwrak>
Affiliate Registration Authority
<wpwrak>
well, no too far off ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
(dimensions) pretty much identical to the PCB, a tad larger so the PCB firs in
<DocScrutinizer05>
fits*
<wpwrak>
numbers, please :)
<wpwrak>
i.e., < 10 x 15 cm ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
112
<DocScrutinizer05>
*59
<DocScrutinizer05>
*~5
<wpwrak>
ah yes, the whole critter isn't all that long. excellent.
<wpwrak>
(10 x 15 cm is the work area of my mill. so subtract about 5 mm on each side and you have the maximum size i can mill)
<wpwrak>
else we'd have to enlist whitequark ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
sufficient
<DocScrutinizer05>
I could carve a carton model
<wpwrak>
that's another approach: stacked 2D panels
<DocScrutinizer05>
but probably not to scale, at least for the rim
<DocScrutinizer05>
the step we need at the rim will be a tad nasty
<wpwrak>
the vertical wall ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
as in: sub-mm
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<wpwrak>
how thin is the thinnest wall ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's pretty much up to us
<DocScrutinizer05>
thick enough to be stable
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
there must be some constraints from the existing case.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes: the step to take the wall of existing case needs to be 1.2mm deep
<DocScrutinizer05>
since that's the thickness of the existing wall
<DocScrutinizer05>
an d that existing wall has a step as well, where the kbd frame sits. The wall mecomes 0.8mm there
<DocScrutinizer05>
so our step needs a step of 0.4mm
<wpwrak>
is that 0.4 mm part exposed on the outside ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually two steps. one 0,4mm deep, one 0.8mm deep
<DocScrutinizer05>
no
<wpwrak>
oh, depth isn't much of an issue
<wpwrak>
i'm more interested in wall thickness
<wpwrak>
or ridge/rim
<DocScrutinizer05>
"deep" as "into the wall"
<wpwrak>
steps (in any direction) with a precision around 0.1 mm are usually no problem
<wpwrak>
the problems start when the walls get too thin
<wpwrak>
and then there's Z accuracy. so the thickness of the bottom may have some variation. with my mill, which isn't very rigid, that variation can be significant. so if the bottom doesn't have to be super-thin, that helps.
<wpwrak>
anyway, there are a lot of ways to cheat when prototyping. for production you'd want to find a place nearby with better equipment. maybe roh knows something. or nik. worst case, you'll have to make friends at a local hacklab :)
<wpwrak>
oh, that looks quite easy
<DocScrutinizer05>
the steps have to be super-level
<DocScrutinizer05>
they sit on a level existing case and are visible
<wpwrak>
that's what mills do :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I got a place nearby, university spin-off. they do such CNC stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
they take pride in doing absurdly complex things
<wpwrak>
at thing on top of "arbitrary" would be the bottom, correct ? what sits on the 1.2 mm rim, what on the 0.4 mm rim ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
didn't talk to them yet since I have no model or data
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's a negative copy of what the case rim looks like
<DocScrutinizer05>
the wall is 1.2mm thick
<DocScrutinizer05>
and ahs a step of 0.4mm for kbd frame
<DocScrutinizer05>
has*
<DocScrutinizer05>
the thin end of this spacerframe wall (ARBITRARY) sits inside the case
<DocScrutinizer05>
the lower right side vertical is visible
<wpwrak>
hmm, looking at sketch,pdf, the "arbitrary" part looks unused. i.e., could be 0.
<DocScrutinizer05>
somewhere below the "lid" would go to the left
<wpwrak>
unless it has to push against anything on the inside of it all
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope, but we need it for mechanical rigidity
<DocScrutinizer05>
the kbd frame alone isn't sturdy
<DocScrutinizer05>
the step, that is
<wpwrak>
hmm. we'll see :) there may be better ways
<wpwrak>
(e.g., perpendicular supports)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the wall of case is only 0.8mm there, and a ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
1.1mm high
<DocScrutinizer05>
we want to add an additional 1 or two mm down (now up) into the case
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least every now and then
<DocScrutinizer05>
might be notches, 2mm wide
<wpwrak>
the only bit that has to be perfectly level is the first step. seems that the rest can be bumpy since it's on the inside and has no mechanical function that would require perfection. so you'd add a vertical gap of, say, 0.1mm and you're good.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<wpwrak>
how thick is the top surface ? what goes around keyboard etc.
<DocScrutinizer05>
or we accept a eyecandy gap on the outside and make the wider inside the mech fit
<DocScrutinizer05>
*shrug*
<DocScrutinizer05>
one mm, or two
<wpwrak>
perfect
<DocScrutinizer05>
there I found it, the friggin kbd frame
* DocScrutinizer05
eyeballs it
<DocScrutinizer05>
some funny structures there
<wpwrak>
(eyecandy gap) naw, so far all this looks quite doable. i work with similar dimensions for my stuff. and there are also limits to what nokia can have done without ending up with something the crumbles when you just look at it ;-)
<wpwrak>
the funny structures tend to be the worrisome part ...
<wpwrak>
e.g., i wouldn't want to have to make something like the openmoko case. that one was full of nasty undercuts and thin flexible walls
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<DocScrutinizer05>
the recangular "pot" one one side is actually part of what forms the mic acoustic chamber
<DocScrutinizer05>
we might not neet it
<DocScrutinizer05>
need*
<DocScrutinizer05>
there are 3 thin "horns" on top, and right to them a 18mm wide "table". The horns go into apertures of shielding cans on N900, the table has even a U-shaped steel structire soldered to N900 PCB. All to thold the kbd fram in position, dunno what would make it jump around when those things were not there
<DocScrutinizer05>
on the "lower" thin side you see three pairs of latches protuding ~3mm into the case, those are somewhat holding this flimsy thing plastic string in place under the kbd and between kbd and case
<DocScrutinizer05>
we might not heed those either, obviously
<DocScrutinizer05>
need*
<wpwrak>
hmm, lots of "horns" ...
<wpwrak>
good if we don't need them :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
6min
<DocScrutinizer05>
err 8min
<DocScrutinizer05>
7
<DocScrutinizer05>
once you got a 16Mb downstream, a 1Mb up can really suck
<DocScrutinizer05>
111KiB/s
<DocScrutinizer05>
5min
<wpwrak>
the "table" has an undercut. so part of it has to go for basic CNC
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, I think we can forget about it, we won't get the steel U anyway
<wpwrak>
the screw "barrels" where the screws go need a tool change. ah, *-08 is very nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
and actually I got NFC why it's needed
<DocScrutinizer05>
the barrels will have to live with getting cut by the screws, eh?
<wpwrak>
yeah, that too.
<DocScrutinizer05>
those are FR
<DocScrutinizer05>
TX6 FRdunno*4
<DocScrutinizer05>
1.4?
<DocScrutinizer05>
~2min
<wpwrak>
i hope nothing depends on that "bay" on the left side on neo900.org/stuff/joerg/kbdframe/2014-06-27_02-46-06.jpg to be exact
<DocScrutinizer05>
that looks pretty bogus
<DocScrutinizer05>
I thinks there's nothing on PCB there (yet)
<wpwrak>
neo900.org/stuff/joerg/kbdframe/2014-06-27_02-47-24.jpg shows the microphone chamber, right ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
though on Neo900 I want a lot of LEDs there ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, that's the acoustic chamber
<DocScrutinizer05>
we will not have that thing - probably
<DocScrutinizer05>
since it needs to go down to the tube which ends on that tiny hole left of AV jack
<DocScrutinizer05>
NB it's connected with the smaller rectangle left of it, the start of that tube
<DocScrutinizer05>
the whole thing is a rubber part anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
you can see the two holes in rubber and the plastic bolts fixing it at extreme left and right
<DocScrutinizer05>
(left almost covered by screw barrel)
<DocScrutinizer05>
btw upload finished
<DocScrutinizer05>
uploading some more pictures of kbd frame in case
<DocScrutinizer05>
(chamber) we either keep microphone in that position (on UPPER) and male the chamber have a direct aperture/hole to the environment, or we place the mic on LOWER, so where it originally been, and make the chamber by a rubber frame between LOWER and UPPER
<wpwrak>
(more pix) maybe snap a few of the things it attached to as well
<DocScrutinizer05>
I somehow prefer solution #1 since it allows for symmetrical second mic on left side
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry?
<wpwrak>
and it would be nice if you did a little triage first. e.g., if you have N pictures of the same area, keep only the best. it's very tedious to sift through a large collection over the net
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry
<wpwrak>
(more pix) remove kbd critter, then take pictures of that's underneath
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, will weed out a few of them
<wpwrak>
#s/that/what/
<DocScrutinizer05>
the first three "identical" pictures are of case without frame, a lot are actually bogus shit with frame places randomly on top
<DocScrutinizer05>
for what's *actually* underneath the frame in N900, refer to highres scans of PCB
<DocScrutinizer05>
the frame obviously sits on top of the hige white domesheet
<DocScrutinizer05>
huge*
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<whitequark>
someone pinged me?
<wpwrak>
we just thought about recruiting you for spacer milling :)
<whitequark>
oh
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<wpwrak>
with great CNC mills comes great responsibility ;-)
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<whitequark>
:p
<whitequark>
I could try it
<wpwrak>
you even have an N900, don't you ?
<Textmode>
...and I've completely forgotten how to navigate the nn's filesystem.
<Textmode>
wait, didn't it have some limitations on what partition formats it supported?
<Textmode>
might explain why I can't find my card...
<whitequark>
wpwrak: nope I don't
<wpwrak>
ah, right, that was a gta04
<whitequark>
nope
<whitequark>
I only preordered neo900
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<wpwrak>
well, it seems that it's less bad than it looks: fastcompression.blogspot.de/2014/06/debunking-lz4-20-years-old-bug-myth.html
<wpwrak>
of course, still a good idea to fix it before someone finds an exploit that can do serious damage despite the problem being considered "harmless". wouldn't be the first time something like that happens.
<whitequark>
yeah. exploits never grow weaker, only more powerful.
<ysionneau>
sure
<ysionneau>
real security issues are just playing lego with a sum of inoffensive exploits, when summing them it ends up deadly
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<eintopf>
:-(
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* DocScrutinizer05
figures an ICBM built of Lego blocks
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<astr>
I want to get a led that is as bright as the ones in smartphones for camera flashes/touch. what sort of brightness would you say there are and do they have a special name?
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<wpwrak>
maybe search a parts catalog for "flash" ? that should find some specifically designed for such use
<wpwrak>
well, or at least specifically marketed :)
<astr>
I guess I look based on brightness, I don't plan to use them for flashes specifically
<dos1>
flash leds on phones can be very bright, but only briefly
<dos1>
if you use flashlight mode, it's not as bright as on short flash