<wpwrak>
indeed, the question is right on the mark :) nice, but too unique
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/1059.fpd (1059, 1060): Keystone CR2032 battery holders (TH and SMT) (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/b7d32fa
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/HIERARCHY: added more sub-caregories for Connector/{SMT, TH} (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/e83674a
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: modules/1059.fpd: renamed 1059, 1060 to KS-* to avoid confusion with stdpass (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/kicad-libs/365de11
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<nicksydney>
whitequark: seems like it....WIP i suppose
<wpwrak>
pretty machine :)
<wpwrak>
and they aim for about the same price as the ACME TM220A/TM240A, with better features
<wpwrak>
now add direct solder paste deposit (should be feasible) and selective ion beam soldering (i just made that one up), and you have your one-box smt line
<whitequark>
ion beam? just use an ir laser
<wpwrak>
then all you need is an unboxer
<wpwrak>
won't the IR laser give you trouble with reflections ?
<whitequark>
well
<whitequark>
ion beam has a few problems too
<whitequark>
for example, focusing.
<wpwrak>
now here's a challenge for you now that you've tamed the CNC machine :)
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<wpwrak>
hmm, kicad really wants be to redraw zones manually. copy helpfully places the copy right on the original, so the only way to move them is by moving them individually. and when i do this, pcbnew crashes :(
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<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv/dsv: add Z tag to select files in ZIP archive not ending in .zip (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/7067c00
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: dsv/dsv: change indentation to tab instead of 4 spaces; fix typo (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/eda-tools/8c5d7d7
<whitequark>
not a single nice quiet place I know of
<wpwrak>
and they shouldn't have a lot of cars either
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: so, well, a village would actually be quite welcome
<whitequark>
as long as that village has broadband and working postal service
<whitequark>
by "working", I mean "working not worse than RU post"
<whitequark>
I highly doubt that even the most remote corner of DE has post that works worse than ours
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: (opportunities) more and more companies are willing to go for remote work, but yeah, that's still an important factor
<whitequark>
most importantly, what are the property prices in Berlin? say I have a 30 sq. m. (I think?) apartment here, how much would rent cost me there?
<whitequark>
"Erlangen" would be a funny place to live in, though for all the wrong reasons :D
<wpwrak>
hmm, an elderly aunt of mine has a whole unused apartment in her house. lives in a "city" that pretty much qualifies as "in the middle of nowhere" in austria. they have impressive traffic, though, because there's a highway going right through their market place. but they're planning to fix this (like they have for the last few decades :)
<whitequark>
apparently it's specific for each of google TLDs for some idiotic reason
<DocScrutinizer05>
and prolly only available when you register, eh?
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: no idea, does it ask you?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, but despite it now seems to not have adobe, it still doesn't change URL, neither in Konqui nor FF
<whitequark>
how does the url look?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wow, does THIS work for you? https://maps.google.de/maps?q=49.448802,11.055081&hl=en&ll=49.448054,11.056387&spn=0.011342,0.033023&sll=48.917413,11.407993&sspn=5.870185,16.907959&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=49.448148,11.056466&panoid=7BXu-uFcBBuuN_URrf68zA&cbp=12,311.29,,0,-0.35
<whitequark>
I'm looking at a tree
<whitequark>
with a person underneath
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm almost looking at same tree when looking outa my kitchen window
<whitequark>
mm, nice place
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually my house is 50m down the pedestrian way you see the entrence to it in background
<whitequark>
is it quiet?
<whitequark>
how often do your neighbours spend entire weeks trying to perforate their concrete walls with some seriously underpowered tools?
<whitequark>
seems to be a national sport here. in *every*single*place* I've been there's always some perforation enthusiast
<DocScrutinizer05>
never
<whitequark>
I'm sold
<whitequark>
you have no idea how "enjoyable" is it to be regularly awaken by the sound of a crappy drill gnawing some concrete right above your heat
<whitequark>
head*
<DocScrutinizer05>
https://maps.google.de/maps?q=49.448802,11.055081&hl=en&ll=49.448869,11.05482&spn=0.001418,0.004128&sll=48.917413,11.407993&sspn=5.870185,16.907959&t=m&layer=c&cbll=49.448869,11.05482&panoid=QaQQX8DngVKEEA1TUaCk6Q&cbp=12,86.71,,0,10.04&z=19 is the end of the 50m pedestrian way
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess there's few concrete in my house and the next ones ;-)
<whitequark>
right
<DocScrutinizer05>
you rather can drill holes with a pencil XD
<whitequark>
btw: I see no air conditioning external modules
<whitequark>
do none of the houses have A/C or is it just cleverly hidden?
<DocScrutinizer05>
AC is pretty uncommon here
<whitequark>
I see
<DocScrutinizer05>
office buildings tend to have those lately
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically _no_ non-commercial flat or building has any AC
<DocScrutinizer05>
we rather need heating here
<whitequark>
A/C is an effective heating solution
<whitequark>
for instance this unit I have, which has less than 1kW of power, heats my apartment *way* better than a 3kW electrical heater
<DocScrutinizer05>
for the maybe 10 days per year when it's >25 centigrade outside, we keep the windows closed and enjoy the climating properties of our thick walls
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, but a 3kW gas heating is way cheaper than a 1kW AC here
<whitequark>
while it is supposedly only to be used in temperatures over -15°C, I've successfully used it throughout the entire winter, including in -25°C
<DocScrutinizer05>
both purchase and operating
<whitequark>
and it still was quite efficient at cooling the outside air to something even colder
<DocScrutinizer05>
electrical energy is incredibly "expensive"
<whitequark>
(the fact that I never turned it off might have actually saved it)
<whitequark>
hm, I see
<whitequark>
(10 days per year; climating properties of walls) both make sense and both great
<DocScrutinizer05>
we pay ~25ct/kWh
<DocScrutinizer05>
so this would be ~3EUR/d for your AC
<whitequark>
eh, it shouldn't work at maximum power most of the time
<whitequark>
I don't think it would or should normally eat even 100W
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, I already assumed a 50% duty cycle
<whitequark>
hm... I pay 6.6ct/kWh peak and 1.7ct/kWh off-peak
<whitequark>
quite a difference indeed
<DocScrutinizer05>
24h * 1kW * 0.25EUR/kWh
<DocScrutinizer05>
1.7ct/kWh was a reason for our *industry* to completely move to your place, unless there was other obstacles
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's insane
<DocScrutinizer05>
here
<DocScrutinizer05>
but we want it that way
<DocScrutinizer05>
no more nuklear power plans etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
plants*
* whitequark
wouldn't really mind a nuclear plant operating right under his ass
<whitequark>
... if not built by russians, of course
<DocScrutinizer05>
right, you got no "Asse" next to you
<DocScrutinizer05>
we're thoroughly fed up with that shit here
<whitequark>
and you know why? because "conventional" reactors are designed for producing weapons-grade plutonium rather than energy, in the first place
<whitequark>
there *are* designs which are safer, cheaper and produce much less waste, or in fact can use waste from our current reactors, if you want then
<whitequark>
e.g. LFTR. it has some problems, but the biggest of them is regulatory dickheads
<DocScrutinizer05>
we know *our* engineers and they sound damn alike the japanese ones
<whitequark>
okay, well, now that's a reason
<DocScrutinizer05>
Fuku finally changed the game, after your chernobyl already did some years ago
<whitequark>
Fukushima has so much useless scaremongering, it's not even funny
<whitequark>
people hear "nuclear" and piss their pants. do you know why MRI is called "MR"I rather than "NMR"I, which would be correct, given the physical effect?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it shows we're constantly getting lied about such stuff
<whitequark>
that's a reason to push for better transparency in the industry
<whitequark>
I wonder when EU will say "oh, NSA spies on us in the internet, let's shut down the internet"
<whitequark>
good idea by this logic
<DocScrutinizer05>
all histroy shows evidence that control of industry doesn't work
<whitequark>
there's plenty of industries which have been regulated and as result we're much safer. no reason nuclear can't be same.
<DocScrutinizer05>
one reason: it been like this for several decades now
<whitequark>
you know, it's basically like planes and cars
<DocScrutinizer05>
and still we see same shit happen
<whitequark>
a plane crashes, it's all over the news, and people everywhere shit themselves
<whitequark>
whereas cars kill thousands of people daily and no one gives a fuck
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, planes and cars can get smashed in a second and you simply forget about them
<whitequark>
cars : planes = coal : nuclear
<DocScrutinizer05>
fucking nuclear wase and pollution stays for millions of years
<whitequark>
I've already said, there are better ways to dispose of even current waste rather than simply burying it
<DocScrutinizer05>
we want none of them
<whitequark>
if you don't want to produce weapons Pu that is
<DocScrutinizer05>
we don't see why we need nuklear shit
<whitequark>
high EROEI?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's more expensive and much more dangerous than any other means to produce energy
<DocScrutinizer05>
TCO
<whitequark>
(more dangerous) mainly in politicians minds and popular agenda
<DocScrutinizer05>
our energy providers now try to "sell" the nuklear waste problem to government, by offering a 30 billion EUR to get rid of it
<DocScrutinizer05>
I honestly hope they won't get away with it
<DocScrutinizer05>
estimated final cost to deal with that shit: magnitudes higher
<whitequark>
sounds high until you compare it with the cost of getting the same amount of energy in other ways
<whitequark>
then it doesn't sound so high
<wpwrak>
yeah, nuclear power isn't so bad. wouldn't want to have a plant right next door, in case something goes wrong, but in a sufficiently remote area, why not. the biggest problem with that it that remote areas tend not to have rivers, and as far a i know, all the fission reactor designs still need that.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and that dosn't take into account the billions they already received on subsidies
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I would absolutely have any modern design plant right next to me.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't give a shit about plants. We simply don't need that money sink anymore
<whitequark>
sure, RBMK is horrible, but no one forces you to use RBMK!
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's *evidently* more expensive than anything else, in TCO
<whitequark>
I grant DocScrutinizer05 that fukushima handling is full of lies, but the actual damage is negligible compared to what a coal station does while operating a few days
<whitequark>
and I do compare apples to apples, you release nuclear shit while burning coal
<DocScrutinizer05>
I also don't give a shit about Fuku
<DocScrutinizer05>
we also do no coal stations anew here
<DocScrutinizer05>
we get solar power and windparks
<DocScrutinizer05>
and hydro
<whitequark>
and what's EROEI on solar? and what if you now include the degrading panels?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and geothermics
<whitequark>
hydro is great, but it tends to destroy huge surface
<DocScrutinizer05>
toldya we want it that way
<DocScrutinizer05>
we got fed up with that shit
<DocScrutinizer05>
human hibris
<DocScrutinizer05>
of engineers
<DocScrutinizer05>
ansd scientists
<whitequark>
as if a dam can't lead to a catastrophe ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure it can
<DocScrutinizer05>
so what?
* whitequark
shrugs
<wpwrak>
at least it's quick ;-)
<whitequark>
the economic argument is sound. the rest is meh
<DocScrutinizer05>
do you think it's fair to tell your children "you not only pay more than you earn to pay my rent now, you please also take care of that pile of green glowing shit over there!" ?
<whitequark>
and I will repeat again, that there are designs that do not require long storage of highly active waste
<wpwrak>
they'll grow up with it. they won't even think it's unusual :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: repeat that as long as you like. I don't see it anywhere in RL
<whitequark>
you mean in production installs? because of people like you who prevent usage or even proper certification of anything more recent than shitty 50 year old, almost cold war era designs
<wpwrak>
(fukup) and let's not forget that japan has some bad memories about nuclear "incidents"
<DocScrutinizer05>
even tokamak might be a pipe dream when you count in the contamination of the containment
* wpwrak
gets the popcorn
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I thought it would be a factor, but then I looked closer and apparently japanese have more sense in these questions
<DocScrutinizer05>
people like me? you're getting personal and mad
<whitequark>
it's more a statement of fact, there are groups of people who blindly oppose even any research into better designs, and that is silly
<whitequark>
btw, japanese already cancelled the program that would involve shutting down all of the reactors. at least once, sanity prevailed
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, it's pretty reasonable, given we decided we don't ned that shit
<whitequark>
"we decided we don't need that shit because it's dirty, and it's dirty because we decided we don't need that shit"
<DocScrutinizer05>
and we're not willing to allow "people like you" another decade in their sandbox
<whitequark>
absurd argument
<DocScrutinizer05>
or two, or three
<whitequark>
yeah, better buy tons of inefficient solar panels, with incredibly dirty production process
<DocScrutinizer05>
with another few chernobyls and fukus
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the pile of waste growing
<whitequark>
but who cares, if it's just some river in china that gets poisoned
<wpwrak>
i guess it'll go like this: the germans will put lots of solar panels on their roofs, produced in countries where nobody makes a lot of noise about the production overhead. then they install wind parks. and if all that still isn't enough, then the rest will be provided through the european interconnect
<wpwrak>
in other news, france adds some new reactors ... ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: your guess is uneducated
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: that argument too is absurd. no sane person would deploy RBMK today or even 50yrs ago
<whitequark>
and soviets were evidently insane for actually deploying it. nothing you could do about that, too.
<DocScrutinizer05>
eh?
<whitequark>
"hey, let's install a reactor that we know fails unsafely" "sounds like a perfect idea" ← how Chernobyl happened
<DocScrutinizer05>
so what? how fuku happened?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: yeah, i actually don't know if they'll add them in france. maybe it'll be ukraine :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wasn't fuku "absolutely safe" design based on GeneralElectrics?
<wpwrak>
perfectly safe, in the deserts where GE tested it ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: you're talking random gibberish to me
<whitequark>
fuku is *nowhere* near chernobyl. fuku was hit by an earthquake exceeding its planned limits by a factor of ten, and how much people got sick from radiation?
<whitequark>
I'll tell you, exactly zero
<DocScrutinizer05>
suuuure
<whitequark>
you have data proving otherwise?
<whitequark>
and if you say "fallout", I say "look at that dozen of coal powered stations right next, which actually result in *more* nuclear fallout in a year than ten fukushimas"
<whitequark>
s,earthquake,tsunami, (though earthquake is the ultimate initial reason, still)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I simply say we love our small country too much to have no-go areas in it that will stay for centuries
<DocScrutinizer05>
and please don't tell me now "japanese are mad to create a no-go area around Fuku"
<wpwrak>
whitequark: for cancer rates and such it's still a bit early. also chernobyl did "nothing" for several years.
<DocScrutinizer05>
again, we don't need that shit, there i
<DocScrutinizer05>
are better energy sorces all around
<whitequark>
wpwrak: sorry? chernobyl killed a lot of people rather immediately, the firefighting team
<whitequark>
then the fallout was *enormous*
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's 2people like you" who rather want nuklear power than having proper research on those elternatives. Even when the research on alternatives evidently has ZILCH risk of any mega desasters like they happen all the time with nuklear
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: there's no no-go zones around fukushima today
<wpwrak>
at chernobyl people had very high exposure, but also in part due to what they did. the effects on the population at large too a long time to appear.
<whitequark>
all have been eliminated, in less than three years
<DocScrutinizer05>
but sure, nuklear power so cooooool, there's sooo much energy on only ONE gram of matter
<wpwrak>
so fukup isn't in the clear just yet. give it a few more years, then we'll see
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: zilch risk of mega disasters? I don't care whether we have mega-disasters, I care about compound health effects
<whitequark>
and for solar panels it is very far from zero, for example
<whitequark>
and don't forget that they degrade in 2-3 decades too.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I' quitting this futile discussion now, have fun!
<whitequark>
don't like being presented with facts, I see ;)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: there's some fascinating effects at work for that
<whitequark>
for example, mortality in chernobyl victims is actually *lower* than in general population, despite an increase in cancers, because they're (and other problems) are detected and fixed much earlier
<wpwrak>
hehe ;-)
<wpwrak>
yes, if general health care is weak or just doesn't spot such things, then you're indeed better off in a high-risk group :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
acting like a moron doesn't help your point
<DocScrutinizer05>
not even with a ;)
<wpwrak>
but then, you'd be even better off if you got the improved screening without the exposure. so that's not a very good argument :)
<whitequark>
so much for not getting personal *shrug*
<whitequark>
wpwrak: I never said it was a good argument, just a fascinating tidbit
<whitequark>
counter-intuitive
<whitequark>
(better screening) that actually doesn't always help
<whitequark>
e.g. take testicular cancer (I think it was this kind?). it's currently recommended to NOT screen for it, because the invasive procedures related to false positive, statistically, result in a net negative
<wpwrak>
i mean as in examination, not as in absorbing
<wpwrak>
ah, you mean the same :)
<whitequark>
yeah
<wpwrak>
ah yes. only screen for something you can actually cure ;-)
<whitequark>
well, we *can* cure it, it's just that diagnostic procedures are so bad
<wpwrak>
how do you cure imaginary testicular cancer ? :)
<whitequark>
so bad that you're better off waiting until the cancer manifests itself in some more visible way
<whitequark>
oh, that's what you mean
<wpwrak>
it works both ways ;-)
<whitequark>
I guess... by ignoring it?
<wpwrak>
yeah. of make better diagnostics
<wpwrak>
#s/of/or/
<whitequark>
yeah, we don't really have a good way of diagnosing quite a few of cancers without sticking a huge needle in your body
<whitequark>
and even when we have, it's nasty
<whitequark>
being too eager on mammograms would actually *cause* more cancers, since it's x-ray
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry I have to state that attributing moronic behavior to a caliming of quoting all kind of random shit as presenting facts, and then ignoring the sound arguments why those are useless even when they were facts since our people decided differntly and our evaluation shows it *is* mor expensive than anything else in toltal cost of ownership, whell that's not 'personal', that's observation of facts
<DocScrutinizer05>
claiming*
* whitequark
sighs
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway leaving now, not because I don't like to get "confronted to your facts" but just because the discussion evidently is futile and particularly boring
<whitequark>
same
<DocScrutinizer05>
been there a zillion times
<whitequark>
I should rather finish my water-chip-cleaning thing and show you the final CNC setup
<whitequark>
much more useful
* wpwrak
wonders how long until all the water exposure will do some damage
<whitequark>
damage to... what?
<whitequark>
or do you mean the lethal dose of dihydrogen monoxide I have in this 5L tank?
<wpwrak>
there ought to be some iron parts that get wet
<whitequark>
yeah, a few screws
<whitequark>
I ought to replace them, but by the point where I discovered that someone was too greedy to even use non-rusting screws they no longer screw out
<wpwrak>
and i'd be more worried about the hydroxic acid
<wpwrak>
especially when it comes in contact with the alkaline hydrogen hydroxide
<whitequark>
... therefore doubling the damage that the mixture will inflict!
<wpwrak>
at least ! and the stuff dissolves readily in water, so it can get everywhere
<whitequark>
hahahahaha
<wpwrak>
(rusty screws) oh, that was quick
<whitequark>
well, it's also possible they're just screwed in really hard
<whitequark>
some others surely are
<DocScrutinizer05>
you definitely need immediate measures to protect and recover stuff. otherwise not only the screws but also the Al will get irrecoverably damaged
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: hm, Al? how so?
<DocScrutinizer05>
Al and steel form a battery
<whitequark>
ooooooh
<whitequark>
oh fuck
<whitequark>
a galvanic pair
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<whitequark>
you're 100% correct
<DocScrutinizer05>
and aiui or rather *I guess* that rust does damage to the protective AlOxide coating, so your Al will dessolave like in sea water
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: wait, that doesn't make sense
<whitequark>
if they actually did, Al would dissolve instead of Fe, because Al is much more active
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<whitequark>
like you put more active Zn to prevent Fe ship hull from rusting
<whitequark>
but Fe is rusting in my case, so there's no galvanic pair
<whitequark>
(for now)
<whitequark>
I wonder why
<DocScrutinizer05>
the Fe rusting is not caused by galvanic process
<whitequark>
galvanic process would cause Fe to *not* rust
<whitequark>
and evidently it does not
<DocScrutinizer05>
but the rust expands (volume) and crashes the AlOx
<whitequark>
hmm
<whitequark>
yes, that could happen
<whitequark>
well anyway, you're right in that I have to replace the screws. I was rather wondering why I nevertheless have rust
<DocScrutinizer05>
and rusty steel in an al thread will *never* come out again
<DocScrutinizer05>
it comes out only with the al attached to the screw
<DocScrutinizer05>
if at all
<whitequark>
so I won't already be able to screw them out? dang
<DocScrutinizer05>
odds are it's already too late, yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway use alkaline solvent to oint
<DocScrutinizer05>
the usuall phosphoric acid to fix rust issues won't do good here
<whitequark>
alkaline solvent would dissolve AlOx as well as FeOx
<DocScrutinizer05>
alkaline shouldn't hurt Al much
<DocScrutinizer05>
probably best is to use WD40 though
<DocScrutinizer05>
then wait a few days, redo whole process, then after a few more days try to unscrew
<DocScrutinizer05>
vacuum could help make WD40 enter into the threads
<DocScrutinizer05>
if the holes are not open to the bottom side
<whitequark>
(shouldn't hurt Al) what?
<whitequark>
alkalines dissolve Al even with thick AlOx over it
<whitequark>
entirely
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not sure what's the best screw for Al threaded holes. Maybe stainless steel, maybe brass, maybe even Al
<DocScrutinizer05>
Huh?
<DocScrutinizer05>
NaOH + Al => waht?
<whitequark>
AlOx is an amorphous oxide, it dissolves in alkali as well as acids
<whitequark>
after that Al reacts with water
<whitequark>
like Na or any other active metal
<whitequark>
we've did literally this experiment in uni
<DocScrutinizer05>
afaik NaOH is used for Elox
<DocScrutinizer05>
whatever, proceed on own peril
<whitequark>
I'll try WD40, yeah
<whitequark>
think if I'll lubricate the screws with oil, wouldn't it stop the galvanic process?
<whitequark>
so they'll still remain there, but now harmless
<whitequark>
that's concentrated stuff in the video, but weak one would work just as well, just slower
<whitequark>
don't need much alkali to dissolve 60µm or so of AlOx
<DocScrutinizer05>
quite impressive video. Didn't know that. Anyway I meant something like soap maybe with a tad of baking soda in it. But whatever, you see the lock doesn't contain any standard steel, only stainless steel and brass. Guess why!
<DocScrutinizer05>
afaik Al is not dissolving from washing it with usual soap
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe I should have used the term detergent rather than sovent
<whitequark>
baking soda probably won't do much, at least not quickly
<whitequark>
W. T. F. The new, second pump, fresh from factory, is leaking water too
<whitequark>
who the fuck is making these things >_<
<whitequark>
appears to be made from thermofused (?) plastic or something. Either way, it leaks horrible through all of the seams
<whitequark>
should've learned not to buy russian-made the previous time
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you can find a solvent for the plastic, you can make your own cement by dissolving the plastic parts of first pump in solvent, then thoroughly applying that cement to all the crack/gaps in second pump
<whitequark>
they use different plastics
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-/
<whitequark>
the former is actually from a transparent plastic, which I think is also more brittle
<whitequark>
it cracked just from the immense pressure of actually pumping water
<whitequark>
it *CRACKED ITSELF*, think about it
<DocScrutinizer05>
sounds like the average low priced chinese product
<whitequark>
and given its design, immediately as the outer hull was cracked, it started to pump water right to the motor chamber, because that's how it's designed
<whitequark>
whoever invented this fifty years ago is thoroughly impotent as an engineer
<whitequark>
and whoever perpetuated this mistake of nature for all that time should've been fired
<whitequark>
by squad
<whitequark>
I wonder how happy are car owners when all of their windscreen washing liquid is gone after a day
<whitequark>
because that's how it leaks
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: oh, I know
<whitequark>
I'll just double all seams with epoxy. I have a lot of epoxy sitting there
<whitequark>
it's supposedly waterproof, although I guess it depends on how well would it bond with this plastic
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
no hope on that
<whitequark>
alternatively I could use acetone or dichloroethane (popular solvent for children's models here) for dissolving it right in the seam
<DocScrutinizer05>
using scotch tape you got better chances
<whitequark>
(scotch tape) no way, I've glued together acrylic with epoxy
<whitequark>
and where the epoxy layer is not broken (it was hard to achieve) it's very well waterproof
<whitequark>
the rest I waterproofed with silicone, but silicone would clearly not work here
<DocScrutinizer05>
this however is probably PVC, or even PE
<DocScrutinizer05>
oth won't work well with epoxy
<whitequark>
one of those
<whitequark>
ah I see
<DocScrutinizer05>
your acetone / dichlorethane idea is worth a try, but I suggest you try to find some plastic to dissolve in it before you apply that mixture to the pump
<whitequark>
no, not the mixture, just dichloroethane
<whitequark>
DCE is a very potent plastic solvent on its own, it's used as "plastic glue"
<DocScrutinizer05>
will make the gaps wider insteaqd of clong them
<whitequark>
mmm
<DocScrutinizer05>
closing* wth
<DocScrutinizer05>
only works when the parts you want to join are freely movable against each other, so you can press them together, losing some farctions of a millimeter on length of each, for forming a seam
<whitequark>
yeah you're right
<whitequark>
I'll prolly try epoxy first, I wonder if it works and I have it right now, unlike DCE
<whitequark>
outcome 1: doesn't bond well. I peel it off
<whitequark>
outcome 2: does bond well. Win
<DocScrutinizer05>
try roughening the plastic surface. Might help
<whitequark>
no roughening needed, it's conveniently roughed from factory
<whitequark>
oooh or even simpler idea
<DocScrutinizer05>
consider vaccum / low air pressure inside pump to suck in epoxy though the gaps
<whitequark>
just melt it locally
<whitequark>
which is basically what dichloroethane would do
<whitequark>
melt the plastic and then evaporate
<DocScrutinizer05>
even better idea: seal it with molten plastic from another object
<whitequark>
but I don't have the same plastic and a different one wouldn't bond
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet you can fins sth sufficiently similer in type
<DocScrutinizer05>
find*
<whitequark>
hrm
<DocScrutinizer05>
it only can be one of three sorts of plastic, right?
<DocScrutinizer05>
PVC, PE, PP
<DocScrutinizer05>
(i'm no chemist or plastics expert)
<whitequark>
that sounds about right
<whitequark>
but it's still three times more choice than I need
<whitequark>
oh god what the fuck
<whitequark>
it ROTATES
<DocScrutinizer05>
I bet they haven't changed type of plastic while keeping the broken design
<whitequark>
I don't even
<whitequark>
they just snapped plastic parts together in a way that permits them to rotate, without any sealant whatsoever, and expect it not to leak?!
<DocScrutinizer05>
LOL
<whitequark>
oh
<whitequark>
it just snapped in half
<whitequark>
I mean, not broken, disassembled
<whitequark>
I can now see this design in all of its glory and it is extremely moronic, even more moronic than I thought
<DocScrutinizer05>
are you sure that pump isn't meant to get immersed into the tank, so anything leaking would just move to the tank again?
<whitequark>
clearly not, it doesn't have a waterproof motor chamber
<whitequark>
in fact my previous pump is currently leaking rusty water all over the place
<whitequark>
I'm surprised it still works at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
incredible
<whitequark>
now scale that up 1000x, that's how all russian cars are made. no exaggeration
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can clearly see now how they breed all those gifted hackers over at your place ;-)
<whitequark>
I'm going to show you some pics of this abomination
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a clever master plan
<whitequark>
words cannot describe how awful it truly is
<whitequark>
well yes, it definitely bred a lot of DIY automechanics
<whitequark>
aka auto owners
<DocScrutinizer05>
and best of all: all this results in russian stuff only useful to Russians
<DocScrutinizer05>
which comes in handy particularly for military
<whitequark>
lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
Japanese did sth similarm but on the sophistication side: all their waepons are only useful to those who started practicing with them at the age of 5
<DocScrutinizer05>
similar*
<DocScrutinizer05>
yours only work when you know you have to ignore the manual and use a 8 poind hammer instead, and know how to use that right
<whitequark>
manual? what manual?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I knew you'd say that ;-P
<whitequark>
though some USSR-era tech came with rather extensive documentation
<DocScrutinizer05>
that been usual practice till maybe 1980
<whitequark>
2nd photo: regular air-cooled DC motor. very shitty. also VERY LOUD
<whitequark>
the green thing is a bearing
<DocScrutinizer05>
loading
<whitequark>
3rd photo: the water chamber and motor chamber are separated by a mere thin oil layer
<DocScrutinizer05>
stoll loading
<DocScrutinizer05>
50%
<whitequark>
4th photo: turbine axle is that plastic triangular thing, poking out of inlet
<DocScrutinizer05>
75%
<DocScrutinizer05>
90%
<whitequark>
I figure you could imagine how the turbine looks like, it's a very simple centrifugal turbine
<DocScrutinizer05>
wow, done
<whitequark>
one piece of plastic, without even any coupling to the axle whatsoever
<whitequark>
it sits on the axle purely due to friction between two flat surfaces
<DocScrutinizer05>
NB this been CPU usage, _not_ download
<whitequark>
well, but now you can recognize even the smallest detail on the photos, for which I have spent some minutes carefully tweaking focus
<whitequark>
3rd one mainly
<DocScrutinizer05>
first advice: mount pump above max liquid level
<whitequark>
ooh by the way, does it look to you that bearing is kinda useless? no axial load
<whitequark>
I think I know why is it there
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not save for any increased pressure
<whitequark>
it's there to plug into that depression and stop the water from leaking to motor chamber
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a seal
<whitequark>
(above max liquid) not possible, for two reasons
<whitequark>
first, it will simply not pump any water, because it's a centrifugal pump. it relies on water flowing into the centrifugal chamber by gravity
<DocScrutinizer05>
damn
<whitequark>
second, the factory-made box specifically for this pump has an opening at the very bottom line
<whitequark>
you're 100% right that it's not safe for any increased pressure
<DocScrutinizer05>
then the whole thing is shit prone to fail
<whitequark>
WELL DUH
<whitequark>
I HAVE NOTICED
<DocScrutinizer05>
at very least you should mount it contact/motor up, pump down, and make a hole to motor enclosure that allows water that leaks into that chamber to escape without soaking the motor
<DocScrutinizer05>
and you'll prolly need a ceratin amount of silicone fat to seat the green seal into it
<whitequark>
yes, it's mounted "upside down"
<DocScrutinizer05>
seems there already been some
<whitequark>
so the water only seems to leak from rightmost seal on 1st pic
<whitequark>
but it leaks like CRAZY
<whitequark>
I for sure wouldn't expect it to make a huge puddle in mere minutes, just looking at that seal
<DocScrutinizer05>
nfc what's the 4th photo
<whitequark>
you're looking at the inlet
<whitequark>
far rightmost tube at 1st photo
<whitequark>
the triangular thing is the turbine "axle"
<whitequark>
hm, I've just looked at the first pump again
<whitequark>
and the part which is cracked is the motor chamber case, separated from water chamber
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry I don't get it
<whitequark>
meaning... that the way it pumps water into motor chamber is basically by design and not by "fault"
<whitequark>
grm, second photo is shitty, but I couldn't get a better one
<whitequark>
basically, turbine is a plastic thing which from side looks like this: ⊥
<whitequark>
the | part is the axle, the end of which you see in 1st album 4th photo
<whitequark>
the _ part is the turbine itself: a plastic disc with three vertical blades on it
<whitequark>
the motor axle is inserted into the _ part
<whitequark>
and then it rotates the entire ⊥ thing. I have no idea why is it done that way
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess my graphical imagination is seriaously flawed
<whitequark>
ok, let me try to draw it
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just can't see how motor axis connects to turbine axis, and I also can't see how the whole turbine compartment is sealed against the motor compartment, except for the thing with wet/oily hole in center, in #3 photo
<whitequark>
that wet thing, and the bearing, is the only thing that separates them
<DocScrutinizer05>
I also guess the must be some sort of spring loded force pushing the motor against the green seal
<DocScrutinizer05>
and when that thing is wet, then sth is wrong
<DocScrutinizer05>
it should be silicone fat raher than water sitting there, helping the green seal to keep stuff watertight
<whitequark>
nope, no spring loaded force
<whitequark>
and it's "wet" with some kind of oil, not water
<DocScrutinizer05>
then how is the green seal supposed to tightly close the center hole in the "thing"
<whitequark>
it's not pushed to the center hole with anything
<whitequark>
but it can't completely fall out, because the motor dimensions prevent it from doing so
<DocScrutinizer05>
when there's no force pushing it against the thing
<whitequark>
it's a rather brutal design
<whitequark>
I guess it can move 1-2mm back and forth there
<DocScrutinizer05>
when there's no force pushing it, then not even solicone oil/fat will help since the seal will start to rotate and kick out the fat
<DocScrutinizer05>
UGH
<whitequark>
well geez, I guess this is why the first pump is filled with water to the brim
<whitequark>
stop assuming whoever designed it was actually intending for it to work, or even was sane at all :D
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess the "thing" is missing in that drawing, right?
<whitequark>
I especially like how the axle is supposed to rotate the turbine while highly lubricated
<whitequark>
yes, missing
<whitequark>
mentally add the water compartment around the turbine
<whitequark>
then, *behind* the water compartment, there'll be a depression with the green thing
<DocScrutinizer05>
right
<DocScrutinizer05>
make the motor push tightly against green seal and maybe everything starts to "work"
<whitequark>
I'm rather inclined to put the entire thing into incinerator at this point
<DocScrutinizer05>
this is critical
<whitequark>
this design is basically
<whitequark>
it can't work, ever
<whitequark>
it is designed to fail in multiple complementing ways
<DocScrutinizer05>
it can't unless eal is elastic, or motor fixing is elastic
<DocScrutinizer05>
seal*
<whitequark>
it's as if someone literally thought "how can I make the worst possible pump ever" and then proceed to implement that
<whitequark>
oh, I was wrong, it's not a bearing
<whitequark>
it's actually elastic
<whitequark>
hm, another mystery solved, the axle is not round but has a slice shaved off
<whitequark>
hence the turbine actually rotates
<DocScrutinizer05>
right, so the whole design depends on the green seal, and that ages and gets less elastic and brittle
<whitequark>
likely
<DocScrutinizer05>
which conveniently explains why all those 15 year old spare pumps fail
<whitequark>
hm, I wonder why it has an english logo on the back
<whitequark>
"slu"
<DocScrutinizer05>
pull off the green seal from motor axis, and put 2 or 3 washers on axis before shoving green seal on it again
<whitequark>
right
<DocScrutinizer05>
make sure to use fresh silicone oil or rather fat before reassembly
<DocScrutinizer05>
can't use too much of that there
<DocScrutinizer05>
make sure the green seal spins easily on axis
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not supposed to rotatae with axis, rather axis supposed to rotate inside seal
<DocScrutinizer05>
make sure the green seal spins easily on axis - even when pushed/squeezed between motor/washers and the "thing"
<whitequark>
*nod*
<DocScrutinizer05>
otoh the green seal actually must *seal* the axis so no water greeps in to motor along axis
<whitequark>
I will now probably go sleep, too much of this tech for today
<DocScrutinizer05>
creeps*
<DocScrutinizer05>
possibly futile effort to try and revive that design, once the seal aged beyond repair
<DocScrutinizer05>
however as long as it stays elastic and seems capable to seal the axis ... give it a try, not much you could lose
<DocScrutinizer05>
you know you used sufficient amount of washers when reassembly of the moter part need a certain force to push/squeeze the green seal, a 0.5mm befor the contraption snaps into fixtures
<DocScrutinizer05>
or you approach from the "too much, too many" side, use 100 washers and remove one by one until you actually *can* reassemble
<DocScrutinizer05>
them meybe remove one more
<DocScrutinizer05>
ten maybe*
<DocScrutinizer05>
damn, I give up
<DocScrutinizer05>
my typing definitely sucks today
<whitequark>
seems like it squeezes the seal right before snapping in, already
<DocScrutinizer05>
how tight the seal sits on axis?
<whitequark>
for this specific pump the problem is the seal of the water chamber itself
<DocScrutinizer05>
oooh, that's nasty then
<whitequark>
quite tight, it rotates with very mild force. the sealant is quite thick
<whitequark>
like peanut butter
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a seal of water chamber to motor compartment other than the green seal?
<whitequark>
the water chamber is made of two injection molded (I think) parts
<whitequark>
and the seam between these two parts leaks
<whitequark>
they're either glued or, more likely, fused together with heat
<DocScrutinizer05>
into the motor compartment??
<whitequark>
no
<whitequark>
just outside the pump
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's another problem
<whitequark>
yea
<DocScrutinizer05>
(peanut butter) seems about right
<DocScrutinizer05>
you could try any type of loctite to seal that other gap from trubine to environment
<DocScrutinizer05>
even usual glue
<DocScrutinizer05>
or silicone
<DocScrutinizer05>
or a rubber ring
<DocScrutinizer05>
or whatever
<DocScrutinizer05>
magic tire repair spray
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
th(the shit that inflates and same time fixes your tire with some latex)
<whitequark>
I know, yeah
<whitequark>
I've silicone and epoxy, wonder what's better here
<DocScrutinizer05>
clearly silicone
<whitequark>
ok, that's even simpler
<whitequark>
no need to mess with known human carcinogen
<whitequark>
(although then I look at my smoking friends and epoxy prolly fades way back in comparison)
* DocScrutinizer05
lights a cig
<whitequark>
it's really absurd how a factory would go to great lengths to protect the workers from even suspected carcinogens and then they go out and happily smoke
<whitequark>
disturbing really, if you think about it
<DocScrutinizer05>
"suspected" doesn't mean 2weak"
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/2/"/
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: ""suspected" doesn't mean "weak""
<whitequark>
"suspected" usually means "if we feed rats 10kg per day of this, they get cancer more than usual"
<whitequark>
which is true for almost anything that exists, if you look at the stats
* whitequark
shrugs
<whitequark>
that's beside the point really
<whitequark>
you shield them from what may or may not cause a tiny uptick and then they go and willingly consume large quantities of known significant carcinogens
<whitequark>
bleargh
<DocScrutinizer05>
there might be an unknown probablility of epoxy causing cancer with 90% probability, while for smoling there might be 99% probability of causing cancer at an unknown or rather low probability
<whitequark>
that's not how probabilities work :o
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's how risk evaluations work
<whitequark>
if we really had the data laid out like you just did (we don't collect it like that), one could multiply them and get a final point
<whitequark>
well, for exposure, you have a level and a timespan
<whitequark>
"exposure" is not a single event that may or may not happen
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's a probability hat your studies are correct, and a separate probability of a substance causing cancer
<DocScrutinizer05>
"suspected" means your studies have poor probability/evidence
<whitequark>
well, yes, hence you must present a mechanism for causation together with the data implying correlation
<whitequark>
the thing that's currently #1 there is an awesome demonstration
<DocScrutinizer05>
stdies about smoking have high evicense, but the probability of smokig actually casing cancer is "pretty low". Asbestos OTOH has a teribly high probability to cause lung cancer, but the evicence of studies is weak
<whitequark>
ah, I see what you've meant
<whitequark>
that's right
<whitequark>
took me 3 times to understand :S
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm amazed you understood it at all, with all the typos
<whitequark>
I did ponder for some time what "evicense" is
<whitequark>
btw, my silicone is weird
<whitequark>
it's basically mostly gelatinous, but sometimes it has chunks of almost hard silicone and sometimes liquid pours out
<pcercueiS2>
new boobs?
<DocScrutinizer05>
eeew
<DocScrutinizer05>
get a new can, possibly rather acrylic
<whitequark>
what even is the state it's supposed to be in?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I think acrylic is more convenient than silicone anyway
<whitequark>
hmm
<whitequark>
it was a challenge to find silicone in *not* huge industrial container
<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, no, you raher use silicone for *this*
<whitequark>
google translate is awesome at first link: "This means you should a joint of the rubbery sealant free and this can be beautiful like pulling a rubber snake, then it is this is a silicone."
<whitequark>
"beautiful like pulling a rubber snake"