<wpwrak>
... and i should have noticed that anelok v1 uses 60 mil pads for test point while ybox v2 uses 80 mil. wonder if i should make the ones in anelok a bit larger. in theory, 60 mil still ought to be more than enough, but ...
<nicksydney>
is it really worth backing up ?
<nicksydney>
i go with60mil
<wpwrak>
in the test fixture for ybox i also screwed up the position somehow. the generous tolerance may thus have helped. but then, not screwing up the next time may be a decent plan, too :)
<wpwrak>
(simd book) dunno. i never used these critters. if it's something you need, why not ?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
seedmatch sounds like the better alternative to kickstarter and pink Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no, i don't think the project should wait with already planning and initiating step 2
<DocScrutinizer05>
step 1 will profit from step 2
<DocScrutinizer05>
and step 2 will profit from sufficient lead in time
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g. we could already fund sw development from capital for step2 and use Neo900 as development platform
<DocScrutinizer05>
the patch to GTA02 also been via GTA01, and the path to N900 been via 770 and N800/10
<DocScrutinizer05>
path*
<DocScrutinizer05>
and those paths took years
<DocScrutinizer05>
the question isn't whether we should start step2 now or later, the question is if we think we want to start it at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 has natural limits of growth, we can't build significantly larger number of devices than a thousand, we won't be able to source unlimited number of mech parts from N900
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the time is right
<DocScrutinizer05>
for a secure and safe mobile phone
<DocScrutinizer05>
tbh I'm surprised about the amount of support Neo900 received without already presenting any plausible perspective for step2, aka "the future of Neo900"
<DocScrutinizer05>
presenting such perspective now will attract more prospects to Neo900 from the community that's interested in an open linux phone, as well as from the wider public that's interested in an alternative to Samsung et al which *really* respects user's privacy and freedom
<whitequark>
otoh: >>we can't build significantly larger number of devices than a thousand<< may be a problem with this plan...
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's why step2 comes in just in time right now
<DocScrutinizer05>
advertising to android community makes zilch sense without such NeoTwo plan clearly explained and exposed
<DocScrutinizer05>
on "killed rootable"... what did they do? tiviozation?
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: ^^^
<whitequark>
Selinux
<whitequark>
see, technically, if *you* can root your phone, *any* app you download, some Candy Crush or similar shit, can establish a persistent threat
<whitequark>
so on one hand what they did is good for security
<whitequark>
but on other hand, as a side effect, it takes the last bit of control out of users' hands
<DocScrutinizer05>
technically that's not correct
<whitequark>
I mean, sure, they could leave an unlockable bootloader and allow you to reflash
<whitequark>
and on Nexus series it's true
<whitequark>
but Samsung, HTC, ... don't do that
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you need a key that's not available on the phone, or a special procedure like connecting the phone to a PC via USB
<DocScrutinizer05>
techically nobody can root my device after *I* rooted it ;-)
<whitequark>
not true, rooting android phones is almost always done with a local privilege escalation in kernel
<whitequark>
and given the sorry state of upstream drivers, you can hardly install a more recent kernel with that fixed
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's a bug that could and SHOULD be fixed, easily and immediately
<whitequark>
that's the state of the majority of phones on market, dozens of easily exploitable local vulnerabilities
<whitequark>
used for rooting
<whitequark>
the phones with unlockable bootloaders are a sad minority
<DocScrutinizer05>
give user *full* control (aka root access) on device, enforce proper password on first boot, and done
<whitequark>
vendors don't *want* to give users root access
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
Neo900 is the solution
<whitequark>
those who do require to sign ridiculous waivers like "we're not responsible if you kill yourself with the phone"
<whitequark>
which explains why they don't want
<whitequark>
lawyers gone mad
<DocScrutinizer05>
idiots
<DocScrutinizer05>
they ARE (first and foremost) responsible for vulnerabilities and the damage done by those
<whitequark>
no, the reasoning is like, "you can tweak hardware directly, therefore you will cause your phone to melt in your pocket and burn you"
<DocScrutinizer05>
so instead of doing it right and granting user the ability to fix any such vulnerability, they just go further the opposite wrong direction
<whitequark>
"and we don't want to be responsible for that"
<DocScrutinizer05>
then they have terribly poor EE
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can tell you there is no way to make e.g. a N900 melt
<DocScrutinizer05>
fry the CPU, sure, but not melt
<whitequark>
I'm 100% sure no software can make your phone kill you
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a lame excuse for them not wanting to give up control over their sheep
<whitequark>
so here's your answer, lawyers gone mad
<whitequark>
exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/ off for a walk
<DocScrutinizer05>
I need some fresh breeze and new inspirations to push on Neo900 towards breaking new ground
<DocScrutinizer05>
the time is right like never before it been
<whitequark>
great
<DocScrutinizer05>
thanks for letting me know about this android crappy move
<DocScrutinizer05>
just one more for you: do you think a 2 core 1.6GHz A9 can run a VM?
<DocScrutinizer05>
reasonably fast?
<DocScrutinizer05>
given we soon see lots of servers based on ARM, the VM itself shouldn't be much of a problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe it actually already exists
<DocScrutinizer05>
"which phone model do you want to use today?" ;-)
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: it's not really "just a VM"
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know, a tad more
<whitequark>
Android precompiles the Dalvik (Java) bytecode to ARM native code
<whitequark>
in other words, 2 core 1.6GHz A9 is about three times more powerful than you really need
<whitequark>
plenty of chinese phones get by with MUCH less
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, that still should be fine on an ARM core
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<whitequark>
servers based on ARM will be based on AArch64
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<whitequark>
aka ARMv8 64-bit, it's quite very different architecture
<whitequark>
somewhat changed ISA and very significantly changed silicon
<whitequark>
though, latest iphone runs on ARMv8.
<whitequark>
does Neo900 have any kind of GPU?
<whitequark>
ugh powervr sgx
<whitequark>
I suppose it would work for accelerating interface though
<whitequark>
and I suppose rz2k (not in channel right now...) could help us figure out all the multitude of reasons this crap doesn't work well :)
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* whitequark
sighs
<whitequark>
ok, der/das/die aren't so hard. what is really hard is the verbs, mainly because it uses various terms like "conjugate" and "indicative" and whatever, in other words, assuming that the reader was taught all the useless grammar-related terminology in primary school or somethin
<larsc>
kindergarden ;)
<whitequark>
in RU I had to memorize it in primary school. the 4 years of education after kindergarten
<whitequark>
but the terms don't map to english at all and frankly they hardly even make sense in russian
<whitequark>
and I blissfully forgot most of it anyway
* whitequark
shudders
<larsc>
I'm not even sure we learned to conjugate in school or whether we were supposed to know how to do it
<whitequark>
I believe there was a whole year or even two dedicated to that stuff
<whitequark>
in excruciating detail
<larsc>
actually, yea, I think there was a lot of "Ich gehe, du gehst, er/sie/es geht, wir gehen, ihr geht, sie gehen"
<whitequark>
oh, hm. nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, (two more I can't easily find)
<whitequark>
but actually these terms are just literal translations of russian ones. weird, I never noticed it earlier
<whitequark>
"genitive" in russian has same root as in "giving birth" and I could never figure out wtf is up with the name
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<ysionneau>
when you learned latin you are used to those "accusative" etc stuff
<ysionneau>
and in French there are some relic of declension (qui que quoi dont où)
<whitequark>
latin?
<ysionneau>
yes Latin is heavily using nominative accusative genitive dative ablative etc cases for nouns
<ysionneau>
you have like 5 types of declensions
<ysionneau>
it's hell to learn :)
<whitequark>
why would you want to learn it?..
<ysionneau>
to study old texts for instance
<ysionneau>
like someone would like to learn old greek
<ysionneau>
personally I didn't have the choice :p
<ysionneau>
at my school Latin was mandatory
<whitequark>
wow. hardcore
<ysionneau>
and I was very bad at it though
<ysionneau>
France and its elitist education system :)
<ysionneau>
please learn complex Math and useless languages just for the sake of showing you are smart
<ysionneau>
then you can rule the country or big companies
<apelete>
lately I tried to understand why the mmc driver returning EIO in mmc_blk_issue_rw_rq() at drivers/mmc/card/block.c
<apelete>
and I tracked it down to mmc_start_req() at drivers/mmc/card/block.c
<apelete>
where it runs mmc_wait_for_data_req_done() which seems to fail
<apelete>
but I can't yet know why because the kernel just hangs at that point (screen flickers and everything just hang, neither gdb nor the ben does respond anymore)
<larsc>
maybe your DMA goes havok and overwrites random memory
<apelete>
yeah, I'm trying to understand why
<apelete>
was wondering if I set something wrong during DMA configuration in jz4740_mmc.c
<apelete>
which would explain why it is tranferring 0 bytes of data:
<ysionneau>
because you don't work at Apple or Microsoft :)
<larsc>
or the NSA I guess
<whitequark>
"the book about delusional people living in San Francisco"
<ysionneau>
takings drugs and eating flowers
<ysionneau>
woops wrong time period
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<nicksydney>
wpwrak: MediaTek LinkIt is a development platform for Wearables and Internet of Things (IoT) http://www.mediatek.com/en/labs/
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: (Neo900++) yes, there's also a nice evolution path: get rid of all the old nokia parts that will get increasingly impossible to source
<wpwrak>
whitequark: i think rootable is now being seen as a feature by more manufacturers. then just don't buy the ones who don't give you a clean way to root the box.
<wpwrak>
(latin) me too. part of "proper higher education" in the old days
<larsc>
'hic forum est' all I remember
<wpwrak>
at least you learn useful expressions like "Agripina cacator est." (Agripina is a shitter. "piece of shit" or such)
<ysionneau>
homo homini lupus
<ysionneau>
and the usual alea jacta est
<whitequark>
wpwrak: not really, unfortunately, no.
<whitequark>
e.g. the Samsung phones, which constitute the majority of market (and are also the only vendor bringing in a modest profit), aren't rootable by design
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: btw, I have disassembled the pump I bought previously
<whitequark>
it is amazing. it has ventilation (?!) holes right next to the leaking water chamber seal
<whitequark>
and there is a conveniently placed plastic gasket (?!), basically a ring with no obvious function except to guide water from leaking seal right inside the motor chamber
<whitequark>
it has no hydraulic function, because it's not tight enough to isolate anything, and it has no mechanical function, because it does not fix any parts in place
<whitequark>
WTF is with this design
<wpwrak>
made in china ? cargo cult meets reengineering meets massive mass production
<wpwrak>
you know, some say "form follows function", but then it's easy to confuse this with "function follows form". just make it look the same and it'll work ;-)
<whitequark>
made in russia
<wpwrak>
maybe chinese emigrants. the ones who weren't smart enough to make it at home :)
<wpwrak>
actually, i wonder how long we'll see those dodgy ripoffs. first, the market should adjust and catch them a bit earlier. second, the level of competence in china should be increasing massively.
<sb0>
"but a great writer of software code is worth 10,000 times the price of an average software writer"
<sb0>
HAHAHA
<sb0>
a writer of FASHIONABLE software code. that's a world of difference.
<ysionneau>
09:27 < whitequark> see, technically, if *you* can root your phone, *any* app you download, some Candy Crush or similar shit, can establish a persistent threat < I so agree with that
<ysionneau>
being able to "root" the phone, from just an application is just a security issue
<ysionneau>
it means that any app can just do anything it wants : dump your sms/calendar/contacts and send it to the internet etc
<ysionneau>
root should only be achievable through reflashing the device
<ysionneau>
so indeed all bootloaders should allow you to reflash the device
<ysionneau>
too bad some don't :(
<ysionneau>
but I sooo don't like the fact that my Samsung Galaxy S3 is just a big security hole
<sb0>
and it's very disturbing that you can get almost 2x the LHC construction budget with a sexting app
<ysionneau>
same for OMAP3630 kernels
<ysionneau>
sb0: lol !
<sb0>
it would be nice if the writer of that piece of shit of a book realized that
<ysionneau>
that's the difference between business and research
<ysionneau>
most people don't care about research, they care about their own small, narrow minded life
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<wpwrak>
sb0: compare: how much sex do you get out of LHC ? then do the math which strategy is evolutionarily more successful :)
<ysionneau>
and you get money if you interest people, people are interested in sexting, not research
<ysionneau>
so money goes to sexting
<wpwrak>
ysionneau: and especially their genitals :)
<whitequark>
I would say that this is a problem with one particular capitalist circlejerk in California
<sb0>
me? I actually like dating physicists, so...
<ysionneau>
whitequark: sometimes funding is not in phase with actual public demand, but I guess that most of the time it is
<ysionneau>
people get what they ask for
<ysionneau>
they want idiotic applications on their phone to tap on candies while commuting? they get it
<larsc>
so the LHC is just a dating platform for scientists?
<whitequark>
ysionneau: the public doesn't get to say much
<ysionneau>
whitequark: why do the public use that?
<whitequark>
the author of the app sells it (and its users) to the venture capitalist
<ysionneau>
I see tons of people playing this stupidgame in the subway
<wpwrak>
sb0: i mean over the population that benefits from aforementioned investement. unless you turn into a modern day casanova, you stand no chance to beat all the sexters :)
<whitequark>
ysionneau: and it is that transaction which is absurdly inflated
<wpwrak>
larsc: now they have to kill you
<ysionneau>
whitequark: if the app is able to get revenues by ads because a lot of people use it, then it's "normal" it gets funding
<ysionneau>
people invest when they see something getting revenues
<wpwrak>
larsc: please have the courtesy to warn your office colleagues to stand clear of the particle beam that will arrive from the southwest in a few instants
<whitequark>
people invest when they see other people investing, mostly
<ysionneau>
what is sad, is that it gets any revenue at all
<whitequark>
it's a typical case of herd mentality
<ysionneau>
also there is this I guess
<whitequark>
and, uh
<ysionneau>
(this==what you say)
<larsc>
pcercuei: take cover ;)
<whitequark>
look at, say, twitter
<whitequark>
where is its revenue?
<ysionneau>
ads
<whitequark>
no, look at its financial data
<ysionneau>
and surely selling data about people
<ysionneau>
I'm not sure they earn that much money indeed
<whitequark>
where, exactly, are the bucketloads of money that it brings and which explain its valuation?
<ysionneau>
but I guess investor see "potential" in it
<ysionneau>
because of the large amount of people using it
<whitequark>
investors are as dumb as you or me
<ysionneau>
well, I see potential, when you get people to use your system
<ysionneau>
it's a matter of time you find some way of getting money with that
<whitequark>
for how long twitter exists already? almost a decade?
<whitequark>
do they have a viable business model? doesn't really look so
<whitequark>
there's hundreds of services with a promise "let's get more people on board, we'll figure how we get the money later"
<whitequark>
hundreds of services born each year, hundreds go to grave each year
<ysionneau>
first 6 months of 2013 they made $254m
<wpwrak>
if a biz is around for a decade, i daresay they have a viable model, no matter as how odd it may strike you ;-)
<ysionneau>
but they must have terrible costs, since in the end they lost $69m
<whitequark>
or think about facebook purchases
<whitequark>
when you see "facebook paid $16B", it doesn't mean facebook paid $16B of cash
<whitequark>
most of that is--indeed, facebook--stock
<ysionneau>
wpwrak: I think whitequark is saying that their business model is just to get funding from investor :p
<ysionneau>
with no real profit from anywhere else
<whitequark>
ysionneau: that's a good way to put it
<ysionneau>
and I guess for now it's true
<wpwrak>
ysionneau: seems to work just fine :)
<whitequark>
unsustainable in long term
<ysionneau>
so they are just screwing investors in the end?
<ysionneau>
nice plan!
<larsc>
its a ponzi scheme
<ysionneau>
I hope government don't invest on that
<whitequark>
where do VCs get their money, how do you think?
<wpwrak>
a decade is a good start :) at what age do you plan to retire ? 1000 ? :)
<whitequark>
ysionneau: ofcourse it does, a good chunk of VC money comes from pension funds
<whitequark>
for example
<ysionneau>
whitequark: different sources, either banks, or insurances, or rich people
<whitequark>
yes, plenty of sources
<ysionneau>
but pension funds are not paid by the state right?
<whitequark>
also I dare you to look at the returns on VC capital for last decade or two
<ysionneau>
ah it's paid by working people
<ysionneau>
whitequark: they usually say "for 10 projects we invest on, 9 are failure and 1 is OK to compensate"
<whitequark>
in theory, they should be higher than average, otherwise, what's the point? in reality, they hover just above zero
<ysionneau>
dunno if it's right
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<whitequark>
well, that's the idea behind VC. but it's supposed to be better than average, in compound
<whitequark>
frankly I don't believe Facebook will survive, say, two decades. maybe not even one
<whitequark>
Apple and IBM will be around in 2100
<ysionneau>
so you say when facebook "buys" a company, they just sell their actions to buy the other company?
<ysionneau>
s/action/share/
<qi-bot>
ysionneau meant: "so you say when facebook "buys" a company, they just sell their shares to buy the other company?"
<whitequark>
ysionneau: to a high degree, yes
<whitequark>
there's usually some cash paid as well, and maybe other instruments
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<whitequark>
they don't *sell* their stock, they offer their stock in exchange of other company's stock
<whitequark>
"How will WhatsApp make money? Not ads, Koum said. (We’ll see.) Monetization won’t be a priority near-term and, in fact, the company won’t reveal how many of those 450 million users are paying $1 a year after the first year of free service. “We’re focused on the growth,” he said."
<whitequark>
doesn't this sound absurd?
<whitequark>
WhatsApp business model surely was selling their company to Facebook :)
<ysionneau>
ahah
<ysionneau>
indeed when you think about those things that's crazy
<whitequark>
one thing this whole contraption is surely excels at, so far, is making a few rich white guys even richer. everything else is doubtful at best
<ysionneau>
and it gives work to a looooooot of people
<ysionneau>
without making them rich
<ysionneau>
all the traders/accountant/investment company employes etc etc
<ysionneau>
lawyers etc
<whitequark>
ugh, insurance companies
<whitequark>
16 pages of fine text, 42 sections
<whitequark>
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
<wpwrak>
many a lawyer seems to "earn" a decent living ...
<wpwrak>
one point that may be missing: more people, higher productivity = fewer good bottom-end jobs. so people *have* to move up, just to find some space
<larsc>
or you work less
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<wpwrak>
yes, but out model of distribution of resources is still work-based. so if you don't change that first, "working less" for most people simply means living in poverty.
<whitequark>
Explosions are definitely underappreciated as a mixing technique, but in this case, they are keeping you from forming any larger crystals, a development which the paper says, with feeling, "should be avoided by all means".
<whitequark>
Footnote 18 hints that -- unbelievably -- they repeated the autoclave protocol more than once.
<whitequark>
Apparently any excess starting material will also crystalize, yielding large mercury (I) azide crystals. Helpfully, Footnote 18 cautions us that, quote, "the slightest provocation [of these crystals] ... will always lead to a violent detonation, thereby decomposing the whole batch."
<whitequark>
"it is frequently advisable to work with [selenium compounds] on alternate days", which I suppose is to give them time to work their way out of your nasal passages.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
lol
<wpwrak>
ah, he has a new entry. nice :)
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<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05:
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: you should try mercury azides
<DocScrutinizer05>
what for?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't like mercury much
<whitequark>
but you do like explosions as a mixing technique or other unusual applications :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and decomposition of the azide would dispense that crap nicely
<DocScrutinizer05>
I prefer copper azide for that
<whitequark>
could also try other heavy metals
<whitequark>
uranium azide?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or was it copper acetate?
<DocScrutinizer05>
copper acetylite ;-P
<whitequark>
acetate doesn't explode
<whitequark>
hm
<whitequark>
acetylite... wouldn't that only generate acetylene in contact with water?
<whitequark>
or does it also detonate?
<whitequark>
oh it does, cool
<DocScrutinizer05>
copper salt plus acetylene is a known nogo in all labs