Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
<lindi-_> GNUtoo: ublox antaris 4
<GNUtoo> ok
<GNUtoo> is it an ARM soc?
<lindi-_> yes, I've run code inside it
<GNUtoo> wow!!!!!
<GNUtoo> I tought you patched 1 byte of it
<kristianpaul> *g*
<lindi-_> yes that was what I published
<GNUtoo> to enable complete traces
<GNUtoo> ok
<lindi-_> I can't actually distribute patches to non-free firmware :/
<GNUtoo> ok
<lindi-_> but I hope a single byte can't be infridgement
<lindi-_> anyways, ublox offered an SDK years ago for developing third-party software to run on the GPS chip
<GNUtoo> imagine a freerunner with osmocombb on top of nuttx-bb + a free GPS firmware....that would be awesome
<kristianpaul> GNUtoo: if you reverse eng the firmware run inside the bcm4751 soc, that will be very awesome !
<kristianpaul> very messy tought..
<wolfspraul> GNUtoo: can you motivate some people to hack on Milkymist One and join kristianpaul's free GPS baseband project? that'd be awesome too! :-)
<lindi-_> does milkymist one have any external antenna?
<lindi-_> internal gps antenna won't make RTK possible
<kristianpaul> but if you have more information about this bcm i can try help/point sopmething
<kristianpaul> lindi-_: mine does :)
<kristianpaul> GNUtoo: you want to calculate fix on the CPU? get a port of osgps for your OM, and try to hookup a gps receiver
<GNUtoo> ok
<kristianpaul> gps receivr IF, like those from SigE or Maxim
<kristianpaul> but you alredy said no to hack the firmware/arm cortex part of this bcm4751, too bad :(
<GNUtoo> I would prefer to hack the GPS firmware of the freerunner....
<kristianpaul> but lindi-_ already did it no?
<kristianpaul> calculate fix using rtklib
<GNUtoo> ah ok
<kristianpaul> from navigation data provided from the ublox chip
<GNUtoo> ok
<kristianpaul> right??
<kristianpaul> hack the bcm4751 is more interesting because you still chance to implement basebadn
<kristianpaul> jsut as wolfspraul said, thats what we are working on
<kristianpaul> must go, need go grocery store
<GNUtoo> ok
<GNUtoo> I must go to sleep btw
<kristianpaul> sure ,)
<GNUtoo> bye
<wolfspraul> cu
<kristianpaul> MAX2769 -> OM
<kristianpaul> the OM calculate in real time a fix :)
<kristianpaul> osgps does it
<kristianpaul> not hard !
<kristianpaul> ;)
<kristianpaul> well missing real time part, but still way to go most in software
<kristianpaul> baseband moves just to software
<kristianpaul> not HDL and Software like ours currently
<kristianpaul> dunno who will go faster
<kristianpaul> ok by GNUtoo !!
<GNUtoo> bye
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<roh> kristianpaul: my guess is that we will combine stuff more and more to have 'multiple purpose cpus' which have the abilities of a gpu, a cpu, and a vector cpu (e.g. dsp stuff)
<roh> the arm vector calculation stuff could make sense for such stuff... dunno exactly what kind of math is needed
<kristianpaul> math is fft in parallel for signal acquisition and tracking
<kristianpaul> later fix i resolve a matrix dont remenber of wich dimensions
<kristianpaul> talking about a full software aprouch
<kristianpaul> well ignore full, we still using IF :)
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<xakh> 2
<xakh> wait
<xakh> crapppp
<wpwrak> that new feature of qi-bot of sucking the life force out of any newcomers joining the channel seems to work :)
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<xakh> hey
<xakh> I lost the little rubber light thing
<xakh> is there a way to buy a new one?
<xakh> oh wow, sorry about how stupid that sounded.
<xakh> okay.
<xakh> On my nanonote, my girlfriend helped me take it apart, because for the past two years, there's been a piece of graphite lunking around in there.
<xakh> it hadn't bugged me much
<xakh> but suddenly, the graphite moved up and shorted out the board.
<xakh> so, she helped me open up the case, and the thing fell out, eventually (it was stuck UP there), and we got it out
<xakh> when it was put back together, the little rubber piece of plastic that covers the LED
<xakh> was gone, and we can't find i.
<xakh> *it.
<xakh> I know it functions fine without it, but at the same time I worry about dust, fuzz, etc getting in there.
<xakh> so is there a way for me to buy a new rubber piece for the light?
<xakh> also, is there a way for me to buy qi-hardware stickers?
<xakh> because you guys have the neatest logos.
<xakh> like, I'm specifically looking for the Ben symbol in a circle, like what it has when it boots.
<xakh> because that looks killer.
<wpwrak> hm, you'll have to wait for wolfgang for an official replacement and stickers
<xakh> alrighty
<wpwrak> a quick fix for the led rubber would be with transparent silicone
<wpwrak> just put a drop there, then shape it with your finger and swipe off the excess material
<xakh> ....where would I get that?
<wpwrak> silicone can be shaped easily if you wet the finger (or other tool) with isopropyl alcohol
<wpwrak> hmm. any place that has plumbing supplies should have silicone
<xakh> ah alright
<wpwrak> hardware store, etc.
<xakh> well, still, I always like to support you guys, and buying one from you guys would be preferable
<wpwrak> or the big supermarkets where you can get all sort of DIY thing
<xakh> also, if I get one of those, there's a damn good chance I'm gonna gum up my nn
<wpwrak> silicone is easily removed :)
<wpwrak> it's a pretty neat material for little DIY jobs
<wpwrak> well, and you can seal your bathroom with it, etc. ;-)
<xakh> also, is there a place in the US that sells the atben stuff? because I feel like the shipping from tuxbrain is going to be huge
<xakh> well, like I used to use Sugru with stuff, is it like that?
<wpwrak> i don't know. the only ones i've heard of are tuxbrain and pulster
<wpwrak> yes, like sugru but more liquid
<xakh> actually, until today, Sugru was what made up the little feet on my nanonote
<wpwrak> hehe ;-)
<xakh> but it was in the way of a screw, so they had to go
<wpwrak> yeah, a tinkerer's device should not hide the screwd under rubber feet. instead, it should show them with pride ! :)
<xakh> indeed
<wpwrak> i think sugru is actually based on silicone. they just made it a bit tougher.
<xakh> yeah, I think so too
<xakh> next time I get some more sugru though I'm making some new feet
<wpwrak> you can probably also use silicone for that. cheaper :)
<wpwrak> silicone comes in colors. transparent, white, and black should be easy to get. but maybe you have a much larger choice.
<xakh> true, but silicone doesn't dry into as frictional a surface, like my nanonote wouldn't slide down a slanted surface, at all
<xakh> I had a plastic repair kit somewhere
<xakh> that I think was silicone based
<xakh> and it was really smooth
<wpwrak> silicone has a rubberish texture
<wpwrak> so i think it should be fine for feet. but you can just try whether it works. it's not expensive.
<wpwrak> there's also a stronger variant, polyurethane. that's a bit trickier to handle, though. and you won't get it off things as easily :)
<xakh> ahh
<xakh> yeah
<xakh> also though, still wanna buy stickers
<xakh> and maybe an atben thing, but that's for tuxbrain
<wpwrak> (stickers) yeah, they probably don't have these at the DIY store :)
<wpwrak> ah, maybe wolfgang can also sell atben/atusb. i think he once thought about it. but i'm not sure if anything came out of it.
<xakh> that's no big deal, I gotta figure out how to afford one, but other than that I'm fine
<xakh> but either way, should I just shoot a message to the mailing list?
<wpwrak> yeah, why not. or hang our here until wolfgang shows up.
<xakh> alrighty, sounds good!
<wpwrak> i think he's still in germany. it's 07:35 there. may take a few more hours :)
<xakh> ahh alright
<xakh> man, that guy's a globetrotter.
<xakh> where does he actually live
<xakh> ?
<wpwrak> in beijing
<xakh> ahh alright
<xakh> the name wolfgang threw me
<xakh> or is it a handle?
<wpwrak> no, he's german. beihin is just the place he chose to live at for now
<wpwrak> s/beihin/beijing/
<qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "no, he's german. beijing is just the place he chose to live at for now"
<xakh> haha, that's an awesome bot.
<xakh> dang it, he had a cool website, I was just on
<xakh> but I forgot it.
<xakh> you have any idea where to find it?
<xakh> oh wait no
<xakh> that was xiangfu.
<xakh> dunno why I thought it was wolfgang, I guess I always just lump those guys together, since I always talked to them together or something.
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<qi-bot> Jon Phillips: Via @qihardware qihardware: Check out the pic of the next revision of milkymist with LEDs on the ports... http://t.c... http://t.co/by0tcAVv ( 163523118986567680@rejon - 37s ago via Ping.fm )
<wolfspraul> xakh: hi good morning
<wolfspraul> I was planning to make exactly those round Ben stickers, but as of today I don't have them yet
<xakh> hi wolf!
<xakh> yay!
<xakh> those sound amazing.
<wolfspraul> and I don't have these tiny led covers either, though maybe I can take one from a damaged unit
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<wolfspraul> that's Jon's design, he will like you liking them :-)
<xakh> I love those.
<wolfspraul> does anyone know more about http://www.elinux.org/Embedded_Open_Modular_Architecture
<wolfspraul> roh was asking in #milkymist, but I thought I ask here too
<xakh> I know a bit about compactFlash cards, but that's it.
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<xakh> I know that's not really helpful
<xakh> but it's what I know
<xakh> so why are you talking about the EOM?
<wolfspraul> just looked at it because roh was asking
<xakh> ah ok
<wolfspraul> xakh: where are you located?
<wolfspraul> I will definitely remember you when I have the round Ben stickers, although it may take a while
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<xakh> I'm in the US
<xakh> sorry for the late response
<xakh> that's fine, I'm happy to get them any time
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<nickoe> Hi wpwrak, how do you make a footprint, with pads that is not only rectangular or with rounded corners? I get an error if I try to make two pads overlap.
<nickoe> I am talking about fped.
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<DocScrutinizer> morn
<methril> morning
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<wolfspraul> good morning
<wolfspraul> methril: how is life in Brazil? (you are there, right?)
<methril> wolfspraul: i'm not in brazil right now
<methril> wolfspraul: this why i've been missing
<methril> wolfspraul: i'm back to Europe (Ireland)
<wolfspraul> ahh :-)
<wolfspraul> but... returning to Brazil soon?
<wolfspraul> I hope you follow Qi and Milkymist still :-)
<wolfspraul> we are on a collective learning experience I feel
<methril> i moved to Ireland, i'm not going to return to Brazil for living
<methril> i follow Qi and Milkymist
<wolfspraul> so you've been missing Ireland?
<wolfspraul> how did it go in Brazil?
<wolfspraul> I didn't know you moved back, haven't seen any blog posts from you in a while
<methril> yes i know, i've been lazy about updating the blog
<methril> i received a good offer here and i accepted
<methril> i'm planning to do a post, but i would like to have time to work on something interesting before putting something in the blog
<wolfspraul> what was your experience in Brazil overall?
<wolfspraul> how about foss there?
<DocScrutinizer> got another goodie for you, hope the mail will come thru (related to crowbar discussion yesterday)
<methril> the FOSS dev is not really bad. I think that a lot of companies use FOSS developments, but it didn't differ so much from Euroope
<methril> IMHO the companies use FOSS for their own benefit, and they only share the code when they are forced to do it
<methril> BTW i enjoy living in Brazil. Was a nice experience
<DocScrutinizer> now moving to Ireland in winter... :-/
<DocScrutinizer> hope you are a snow lover
<DocScrutinizer> I hate it
<methril> DocScrutinizer: no snow in Ireland
<DocScrutinizer> sure, but still nasty weather
<methril> only rain... rain..... and more rain
* methril nods
<DocScrutinizer> like in whole Europe this year
<DocScrutinizer> winter got cancelled this year, we got a 6 months of november
<methril> i prefer Spain weather, but... my new work was in Ireland ;)
<DocScrutinizer> global warming \o/
<methril> lol
<DocScrutinizer> yeah, "winter" at costa de la luz is really really bearable :-D
<methril> but Europe is small compared to Brazil
<methril> and the flights are cheaper
<DocScrutinizer> o.O
<DocScrutinizer> small?
<methril> yes, the countries in Europe are "small"
<DocScrutinizer> sigma-Europe not so much
<wolfspraul> interesting
<wolfspraul> so what is your new work about? foss-friendly company?
<DocScrutinizer> I think it's about 10.000km from upper north down to gibraltar or greece
<methril> not so much foss-friendly
<methril> this is the pitty
<wolfspraul> I am quite pleased how the NanoNote and Milkymist are chugging along, though we still need some luck in reaching critical mass and making a real hit product
<methril> is a Processing Image company
<wolfspraul> if you have any input/feedback, please holler, we need to hear it
<DocScrutinizer> if you're counting Melilla of Spain to Europe then it's probably even more ;-D
<methril> DocScrutinizer: but they are different countries
<methril> Brazil is only one
<DocScrutinizer> sure
<DocScrutinizer> Greece is quite a bit different nowadays ;-P
<methril> anyway, Europe has other things that Brazil doesn't have
<methril> i didn't know Greece yet
* DocScrutinizer neither
<DocScrutinizer> it's with the 50% European countries I haven't visited yet
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<DocScrutinizer> that might cure soon without me taking any action ;-P
<methril> yes, there are a lot of counties i haven' visited also
<methril> what kind of action?
<DocScrutinizer> none
<DocScrutinizer> it's going to simply be no member of EU soon
<DocScrutinizer> maybe
<DocScrutinizer> not really
<methril> i also think Spain is in a bad situation
<DocScrutinizer> yeah, internally sure. But not that much regarding their credibility
<larsc> ireland too
<methril> yes, ireland too
<DocScrutinizer> ireland already recovers I rhink
<methril> i also think ireland recovers
<DocScrutinizer> once we nuke Standar&Poors with a cruise missile, our problems here are mostly solved ;-P
<DocScrutinizer> but wait, that's the American Way to solve problems
<methril> Germany is ok, isn't it?
<DocScrutinizer> mosly
<DocScrutinizer> mostly, yeah
<larsc> germany is the big winner of the whole crisis
<DocScrutinizer> paying more than we have for saving other countries
<larsc> german government bonds have negative interest
<larsc> i.e. banks pay money so can lend money to the german state
<DocScrutinizer> larsc: this will change in no time, once Greece needs triple the money they asked for now
<DocScrutinizer> and Italy joins in
<larsc> don't think so
<methril> if Greece goes out of European Union, how are they going to force to pay? They don't have political/economic way of pressure
<DocScrutinizer> Germany can't sustain their brilliant export rates when other countries in EU don't want to buy expensive stuff anymore from us. Same time we can't refuse to help stop anarchy from state bankrupt in Greece and other countries, so we HAVE to pay LOTS
<C-Keen> this is not about money but control
<DocScrutinizer> or lack thereof, in *all* governments
<DocScrutinizer> it's already the big biz that rules, and did so for some decades now
<methril> big OT in qi-hw \o/
<DocScrutinizer> "Money is a gas"
<methril> money is the gas
<methril> if you don't have money, you have no global pressence
<DocScrutinizer> (OT) well, according to my own IRC rules that are loosely inspired by freenode's rules, there's no such thing like OT until somebody shouts "OT!!"
<methril> hehehe
<DocScrutinizer> the very moment somebody does, I'll enforce going on topic again on any chan I got +o
<methril> DocScrutinizer: you could jump some rules today ,)
<methril> ;)
* DocScrutinizer considers adopting the practice to insert a ====================== 8X (cut here) ====================== line when doing so, for the convenience of users reading thru their backscroll
<DocScrutinizer> methril: I haven't heard a serious complaint yet
<DocScrutinizer> neither osme user trying to get thru with a on-topic question
<DocScrutinizer> which would trigger same procedure
<methril> well, what are you working on?
<DocScrutinizer> me?
<methril> yes
<DocScrutinizer> please rephrase the question
<DocScrutinizer> I'm always working on a lot of things :-D
<methril> ok, i know
<methril> i was you doing a lot of hw hacks
<methril> s/was/saw
<qi-bot> methril meant: "i saw you doing a lot of hw hacks"
<DocScrutinizer> just posted a suggestion supplement to the crowbar idea of yesterday
<methril> I have been out for 2/3 months
<methril> this is why i'm asking
<DocScrutinizer> I bet wolfspraul or wpwrak can share a pipermail URL to the relevant thread on mikymist ML
<DocScrutinizer> (I'm not even sure my reply to wpwrak 's post made it to the ML. Probably "pending approval")
<DocScrutinizer> not a representative topic regarding what happened last 3 months here though
<DocScrutinizer> I'm not very active here, just helping a bit every other month
<DocScrutinizer> usually on request
<DocScrutinizer> got a time demanding daywork since 2 months now - building STE's LTE modems
<DocScrutinizer> or rather: getting used to such crap like winXP, ClearCase, similar abominations
<DocScrutinizer> :-S
<DocScrutinizer> actually I started "productive work" last Monday
<DocScrutinizer> already contributed an awesome ~30 lines of code, to fix an prio:low internal ticket
<DocScrutinizer> thanks to 4 days studying code and mainly c&p "editing" they were almost initially bugfree \o/
<DocScrutinizer> actual implementation took only 2 hours, after those 4 days of code study
<DocScrutinizer> incl fixing the one typo (missing ";") and test
<methril> DocScrutinizer: you are working still on GTA0X devices?
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<DocScrutinizer> well, I try to help with goldelico's GTA04, but again there's much reluctance to consider my concerns and suggestions
<DocScrutinizer> and poor communication/workflow-integration (I got no access to mist recent schematics for example)
<methril> i though GTA04 was "open" in dev
<methril> i didn't follow the ml for months (more than 3)
<methril> and i read something about it the last week
<wolfspraul> methril: is your Milkymist One in Ireland now?
<wolfspraul> or went MIA somewhere?
<DocScrutinizer> yeah sure, the Eagle professional project files are probably available - I'm not going to buy Eagle-Pro to do some voluntary edits or just look at schematics
<methril> wolfspraul: is in Ireland
<methril> this is why KiCAD could help on this
<wolfspraul> yes we plan some heavy KiCad action for M1 soon, and Joerg's input will be very much appreciated
<DocScrutinizer> the "fun" part is the constant deja-vu I got with GTA04 - reproducing all the mistakes and misconceptions we did on GTA02 before
<methril> wolfspraul: any Ya plans in the near future?
<wolfspraul> no, not near future
<wolfspraul> that would require Ingenic to become more active which so far has not been happening
<wolfspraul> so I power forward with Milkymist One instead, eventually these things should merge anyway
<methril> the pity is not hearing people that knows about those mistakes
<wolfspraul> they don't want to hear, need to be so blunt
<DocScrutinizer> recently they noticed their modem doesn't power down on system shutdown - OMG
<wolfspraul> their speed is let's say 10,000 times too slow
<DocScrutinizer> audio section messed up it even beats GTA02 in that regard
<methril> it looks every uP is trying to put Android on int
<wolfspraul> it's like 3 snails trying to jump on a 250km/h high-speed train
<methril> lol
<wolfspraul> fun to watch though how they stand on the bridge planning :-)
<DocScrutinizer> well, Nikolaus managed to produce a rev3 PCB that already works better than any of OM's GTA01 ever did ;-P
<wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: they cannot process your input because the ultimate realization would be that their entire trajectory is mission impossible
* DocScrutinizer tends to agree to some degree
<wolfspraul> fine then, he will have another 1000 things ahead of him, if each takes him let's say 2 months, that's 2000 months that's ...
<wolfspraul> 166 years
<DocScrutinizer> :nod:
<DocScrutinizer> the nice part is this isn't planned as any commercial success (almost wrote "sucksess" ;-D)
<methril> this is why are so expensive
<DocScrutinizer> sure
<methril> i prefer to spend my money in other "toys"
<DocScrutinizer> OM did PV's of higer volume than what doldelico plans for first sales batch
<methril> that could work
<wolfspraul> methril: the issues go far far deeper
<wolfspraul> so much that it's just silly to even discuss
<wolfspraul> Joerg knows what I mean
<DocScrutinizer> yep
<wolfspraul> we cannot break this down to a 10 minute irc chat
<DocScrutinizer> still I like to help
<DocScrutinizer> :-D
<wolfspraul> Joerg has what... 30 years industry experience?
<methril> i understand
<DocScrutinizer> umm, only passive
<wolfspraul> I have 5 (in hardware). I know nothing, but at least I get up every morning beating myself into shape to learn more that day, why the damn things are not working out.
<DocScrutinizer> my industry experience always been "on your side of the monitor"
<methril> i don't think you have only passive, i know you are a really good engineer
<wolfspraul> yes but hardware is very subtle on the cost and time dimension
<methril> i saw your fixes and ideas on e-mails
<DocScrutinizer> sure, but that'S not related to "industry"
<wolfspraul> so just watching for a number of years, with a fresh mind, will already be good
<methril> i lear from both of you :)
<wolfspraul> I'm a newbie
<wolfspraul> I remember sitting still for hours though watching the FreeRunner assembly line
<methril> if you are a newbie.... i have no words for me lol
<wolfspraul> that was so painful
<DocScrutinizer> I'm closely watching what my EE and chip brewer colleagues did last 40 years
<wolfspraul> I see all these things going on, and I can't believe what I see.
<methril> the industry changed a lot...
<methril> i think it evolves really fast
<DocScrutinizer> that's why I'm good (maybe) - I never got limited to one narrow topic
<wolfspraul> but it was reality, so I kept digging deeper
<wolfspraul> anyway, I do wish gta04 luck
<methril> i also wish luck
<methril> btw, who is getting good steps is Harald with the Osmocon project
<wolfspraul> maybe we can work together one day? don't know. probably not, since their thinking seems really stuck.
<wolfspraul> they need a miracle! :-)
<wolfspraul> oh sure, can't even compare
<DocScrutinizer> well, realistically comparing it to e.g. pandora, goldelico doesn't perform bad at all
<wolfspraul> those are building blocks for the future
<wolfspraul> ha ha
<wolfspraul> yes
<wolfspraul> I agree
<wolfspraul> :-)
<wolfspraul> but if that's all that open hardware could ever be, i would happily use my iphone and be in another industry
<DocScrutinizer> hah
<DocScrutinizer> preaching to the choir
<methril> this is true, the Open Hardware industry didn't reach the mass
<wolfspraul> it will
<wolfspraul> in my opinion that's a matter of understanding the process better (design and manufacturing and qa and...) and getting the economics right
<methril> the last part is what goes some project to a no way end... so it's important
<wolfspraul> many projects seem to be caught in a hero complex
<wolfspraul> they want to be heroes, hero designers, etc. the genius who created xyz
<CcSsNET> sadly open hardware is still highly imperfect
<CcSsNET> such as most devices using SD ports
<CcSsNET> ...
<wolfspraul> but hardware in my opinion is about manufacturing economically, serving customers with actual physical goods
<CcSsNET> drm infested storage.... wth...
<wolfspraul> that won't win you any hero award
<CcSsNET> whats up with your obsesion of fame?
<methril> it depends, for me the technical guys like lekernel, DocScrutinizer, larsc, you ... are almost heroes ;)
<DocScrutinizer> OT: you think it's a good thing to be early adopter and get <lastname>@<anymail>.<fld> ? Believe me it's not, all the idiots misspell their own email addr <firstname>.<lastname>@<anymail>.<fld> :-((
<CcSsNET> trollathon in here this morning
<CcSsNET> bye for now
<wolfspraul> CcSsNET: yes, I said it's a distraction
<DocScrutinizer> WTF
<methril> trollathon? we are just chating
<DocScrutinizer> indeed, an offensive bold comment
<wolfspraul> CcSsNET: wanna introduce yourself? the rest here all know each other...
<wolfspraul> what takes you here, what interests you?
<wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: I hope I can take you up on some Milkymist KiCad action :-)
<wolfspraul> give it another week or so and we start...
<DocScrutinizer> let's see what my plans to get fresh PC with fresh linux will result in
<CcSsNET> o so yall know each other. hmm
<methril> i need to found time
<methril> and read my FOSS e-mails again
<wolfspraul> it should still fit in your free space, in fact it's easy to build from source even
<DocScrutinizer> CcSsNET: especially we are a nice and friendly bunch in here, accusing us for trolling is a bit rude
<DocScrutinizer> when wolfspraul or any other of the well known all time menver would do that, it might be OK. You shouldn't though
<wolfspraul> CcSsNET: he, thanks! [your site]
<CcSsNET> yea
<wolfspraul> quite opinionated :-)
<CcSsNET> yup
<CcSsNET> read my twitter
<CcSsNET> lol
<CcSsNET> i talk lots of shit there directly at companies
<wpwrak> nickoe: fped has rectangular and half-circle + rectangle + half-circle pads
<DocScrutinizer> moo wpwrak
<wolfspraul> :-)
<DocScrutinizer> seen my mail? :-D
<wolfspraul> good morning Buenos Aires
<DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: crowbar sync: bom +=3
<wpwrak> nickoe: the latter also include circular pads (if the rectangle inside is zero and you just get two half circles)
<DocScrutinizer> \o/
<methril> hi wpwrak!!
<DocScrutinizer> plus additional benefir on top, for free :-)
<wpwrak> nickoe: you can disable the overlapping pads check by editing the .fpd file: put allow touch or allow overlap after the "unit" directive
<DocScrutinizer> total bom: 2 Zener, 2 diodes, 1 thyristor, 2 R, 1 C (from top of my mind)
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: no mail ... where did you send it ?
<DocScrutinizer> reply all to yours
<DocScrutinizer> to ML CC: wpwrak
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<wolfspraul> how much space does all this occupy?
* wpwrak checks his spam folder
<DocScrutinizer> max 3cm^2
<DocScrutinizer> probably 1.5
<wolfspraul> wow that's huge
<DocScrutinizer> err 2
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: not a trace of your mail anywhere :-(
<wolfspraul> you mean 2cm by 2cm ?
<DocScrutinizer> ah
<DocScrutinizer> nah
<DocScrutinizer> 2 cm^2
<DocScrutinizer> not (2cm)^2
<wpwrak> nickoe: but disallowing the checks is usually not a great idea. you may need it for things like PCB antennas, though
<DocScrutinizer> M1 didn't look like it's crowded
<wolfspraul> still a lot I think. don't even know about cost, but size-wise, a few extra 0402/0603 components are fine, but anything bigger than that makes me wonder whether it's the right path
<wpwrak> methril: let's see how long until you get bored of .ie and return to the south ;-)
<methril> wpwrak: let's see
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: it well be once we're done with r4 ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> it's not enymore after I weeded it out ;-D
<DocScrutinizer> recall the surplus audio amp in GTA02? ;)
<wpwrak> ah well .. :)
<DocScrutinizer> OM said "thanks for finding that, but no way you got some 'own 1cm^2 now to push in other stuff you like"
<DocScrutinizer> you still owe me that 1cm^2 ;-P
<DocScrutinizer> anyway, real estate needed mostly depends on size of sureproof thyristor and diodes
<DocScrutinizer> surge*
<DocScrutinizer> which in turn depends on buffer C size you got on that board
<DocScrutinizer> and of course on sourcing a nice set of components that can do high non-repetitive surge on small package
<wpwrak> maybe you should check your mail queue. if you really sent it to the list and to me, then at least something ought to have arrived
<DocScrutinizer> (buffer C) not only size but also parameters like ESR etc
<wpwrak> if you're not subscribed to the list, wolfgang will have to add an exception for you, though
<DocScrutinizer> I'm not subscribed
<DocScrutinizer> but CC should've arrived
<DocScrutinizer> well, maybe it's still on the way, I sent it 90min ago
<wpwrak> deutsche post ? :)
<DocScrutinizer> hehe
<DocScrutinizer> OM mailer
<DocScrutinizer> I'll resend to you, from another account
<DocScrutinizer> meh going to spam it here - prepare for impact
<DocScrutinizer> btw I just thought connecting both VDD rails (3V3 and 5V) to the thyristor via some burst-proof diodes (10A or sth, maybe Schottky), and getting a 2.1V Zener form 5V to 3V3, would not only solve the sync problem (OverVoltage on 5V triggers 3V3 OVP detection via Zener. Then both get crowbarred via their own diode and common thyristor), but also ensure a more sane power-up sequence (Zener working as diode when biased reverse makes sure
<DocScrutinizer> 5V rail never is significantly lower than 3V3, forward Zener ensures 3V3 comes up in sync with 5V)
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<wolfspraul> CcSsNET: welcome to Qi Hardware first of all, I don't recall you here earlier
<wpwrak> ah, mail from your grandmother's project arrived :)
<wolfspraul> thanks for stopping by, and feel free! :-) some people here have several year history, but don't let that make you feel it's not your place somehow. the only thing we really care is to be as friendly as possible.
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: hmm, couldn't this cause trouble when powering up ?
<wolfspraul> which sometimes collides with our passion, admittedly :-)
<DocScrutinizer> open mobile, made available ;-P
<wpwrak> i'm also not quite sure how you're start the thyristor. a schematic drawing would help :)
<DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: which kind of trouble? only problem I see is power on Zener
<DocScrutinizer> it's on the contrary avoiding some otherwise possible problems
<wpwrak> trouble = on power up, the 5 V rail is up before 3.3 V. so if this trips the crowbar ...
<DocScrutinizer> this doesn't trip the crowbar, and 5V up befor 3V3 is cured by Zener anyway
<DocScrutinizer> Zener might fuse when 3V3 never comes up though
<DocScrutinizer> e.g due to a short on 3V3 rail
<DocScrutinizer> as Zeners always "fuse to short" </quote>, this would cause both 3V3 and 5V either engage short protection, or (after short removal) cause crowbar 3V§ OVP trip by the short to 5Vintroduced by short Zener
<DocScrutinizer> depending on 5V regulator I'd expect both rails go into overcurrent protection with a short on 3V3 though
<DocScrutinizer> and Zener survives
<DocScrutinizer> only "risk": make sure 3V3 has some minimal load *always* as otherwise the Zener leakage might cause OV on 3V3 and trip crowbar
<wpwrak> i think we have that
<DocScrutinizer> I'm sure about that :-)
<DocScrutinizer> I think it's a pretty simple yet nifty and failproof design for a OVP
<wpwrak> hm. i'd be worried about obscure failure modes
<DocScrutinizer> plus en passant makes sure no too nasty things happen on power-up sequencing
<DocScrutinizer> nah, I already evaluated all whatever obscure failure patterns
<DocScrutinizer> it's safe in my book
<DocScrutinizer> rock solid design
<DocScrutinizer> no matter which component fails in which way
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<DocScrutinizer> of course there'S no substitute for tests on real iron
<wpwrak> the other thing i don't like about it is that we can probably get all the OVP we want by just picking the right regulator chips. so once we finally get to clean up the power circuit, which is a mess, then we should be able to have a nice integrated solution (where someone else has already figured out and fixed the weird corner cases :)
<DocScrutinizer> no regulators protect against reverse fed OV
<wpwrak> (power up) externally regulated 5V is the main supply for everything. 3.3V is derived from 5V
<DocScrutinizer> except shunt reulators
<DocScrutinizer> plus a crowbar is meant to catch component brakage in rgulator block as well as externally caused OV
<DocScrutinizer> so you'll hardly find a regulator chip with built-in crowbar
<DocScrutinizer> (shunt) deutsch: quer-regler (as opposed to the usual laengs-regler)
<DocScrutinizer> quer-regler not commonly used anymore, since they have abysmal efficiency
<DocScrutinizer> only place to use them is to regulate 20+kW PSU when load changes a few 2 or 3% only
<DocScrutinizer> then your parallel/shunt regulator only consumes some 600W rather than several 1000
<wpwrak> mmh. nice and warm in winter :)
<DocScrutinizer> duh, actually each Zener stabilization is a shunt regulator circuit
<DocScrutinizer> the one BIG advantage of shunt reg: extremly low source impedances are possible for the PSU
<DocScrutinizer> as current from buffer/source has no huge transistor or FET to go thru
<DocScrutinizer> owadays with rather low R(DS) FETs this argument is somewhat moot, it was valid intimes of germanium transistors
<DocScrutinizer> now we're *really* OT :-P
<wpwrak> :)
<wpwrak> just checked the 3.3 V regulator we use. doesn't do anything fancy, which was to be expected
<DocScrutinizer> of course not
<DocScrutinizer> for OVP you won't find anything reasonable on regulator domain, as you also got buffer C (a lot of them)
<wpwrak> btw, an integrated solution can also simply consist of OVP detection with a global shutdown. (e.g., with a multi-voltage regulator)
<DocScrutinizer> OVP needs to discharge all those buffer C in NO time -> crowbar
<wpwrak> yeah, sounds reasonable
<DocScrutinizer> which effectively answered your last post before it got posted
<wpwrak> but ... post-M1r4, i think. adam had enough fun with the even simpler input protection circuit of M1rc3. i don't think he'll appreciate getting a crowbar added to all the other changes in M1r4, of which there are many
<DocScrutinizer> of course you can try to find a better BOM /circuit for the crowbar, but you won't get much better on it than the prev quoted BOM
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<larsc> if this was twitter "crowbar" would probably be the trending word for the day
<DocScrutinizer> if he's not willing to add a circuit that simply can get NC by not populating the components, he does something wrong
<DocScrutinizer> not A SINGLE bridge/0R needed, just don't populate the components - can you come up with a design that has less risk to implement on next production rev?
<DocScrutinizer> if adam refuses to consider it, you should find somebody else for that task
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<nickoe> wpwrak, hi, I just got back. But how do I make half-circle pads? There is no GUI button to do that.
<DocScrutinizer> it's not like I'd be more daring on design changes than any of you, au contraire. It's just I have (like with all of my code) already a catch-all/exit-strategy for *every* possible oopsie when I come up with a suggestion
<wpwrak> nickoe: the rounded pads consist of half-circle plus a rectangle (may be zero) plus another half-circle
<nickoe> wpwrak, but in the file it just says rpad for round pads
<wpwrak> nickoe: the half-circles are internal drawing elements (and the whole pad becomes an "oval" pad in kicad anyway)
<wpwrak> nickoe: yes. round = circle or rectangle terminating in half-circles
<nickoe> maybe I should ask you if fped can construct a pad... I will illustrate.
<DocScrutinizer> and I hate the approach of "we got 3 bugs to fix. Let's begin with first one on rev after next, and see how it goes"
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: well, if adam is keen on adding this, i won't stop him ;) but i'm also concerned about the overall workload
<DocScrutinizer> this will slow down things to a grinding halt, and cause 27 hw rev
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: don't forget that the size of our army is rather small
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<DocScrutinizer> oh hell, I probably could add that crowbar in an afternoon's work, even when I also had to install and learn to use kicad same time
<DocScrutinizer> err, sorry, scratch that - I forgot sourcing
<nickoe> wpwrak, I was thinking of drawing something like: http://kom.aau.dk/~nickoe/pad.svg
<DocScrutinizer> so my approach probably would be to get footprinta for what I think are rather standard packages for the components we need, then deal with it later, after the pressing work got done
<DocScrutinizer> adding the footprints for standard components is actually a task for a saturday evening, between sauerbraten and disco
<DocScrutinizer> and if those footprints go unpopulated on *all* sales boards, so what? I still got a nice eval biard from standard production to test the crowbar circuit
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<DocScrutinizer> my old rant since before I joined OM: footprints are for free
<nickoe> DocScrutinizer, what is OM? OpenMoko?
<DocScrutinizer> only resource needed and used up: your brain
<DocScrutinizer> sure
<DocScrutinizer> what else?
<DocScrutinizer> (of course footprints also use the resource real estate, which often is the limiting factor)
<nickoe> dunno, but what exactly happened to OM and gta02-core?
<larsc> DocScrutinizer: "oblivious monkey" ;)
<DocScrutinizer> you should ask wpwrak about gta02-core
<nickoe> okay
<nickoe> wpwrak, I have to go for some time now, but I will be hanging around, so just msg me, if you intend to answer my question about, how to draw the pads, http://kom.aau.dk/~nickoe/pad.svg.
<DocScrutinizer> ...and wolfspraul about "what happened to OM"
<wpwrak> nickoe: interesting shape :-) how about keeping it very simple, with a 0603 or similar, with a trace between the pads ?
<DocScrutinizer> o.O
<DocScrutinizer> could've been my sentence, though I got no context
<wpwrak> nickoe: you could also use two square pads instead of the ones with half-circles and have another pad in the middle. but you'd have to allow touch for that
<DocScrutinizer> NormalyClosed bridge, to cut open?
<wpwrak> nickoe: i'd go for the 0603/similar footprint ;) that one can also be easily reworked
<wpwrak> (gta02-core) it nodded off and never woke up again ...
<DocScrutinizer> I favourize two rectangular pads with a 0nly 0.5mm gap between them so you can easily bridge by a solder blob
<DocScrutinizer> trace to cut goes to the side of gap, not in between
<DocScrutinizer> probably I'm again OT now, due to missing context
<wpwrak> nickoe: with fped, if you allow overlap you could also use a round pad and overlap one side with a rectangular pad, but i would expect this to cause trouble down the road, either in kicad, or at the pcb maker
<DocScrutinizer> anyway on that pad http://kom.aau.dk/~nickoe/pad.svg cutting the trace is horribly awkward
<wpwrak> you'd also have to do the solder mask layer manually in this case
<wpwrak> two cuts, left and right, and lift off what's between ?
<DocScrutinizer> better use sth shaped like °U°
<wpwrak> or solder a 0R ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> so you can cut the trace between the two ° pads at "foot" of "U"
<wpwrak> bonus: you can even run a trace under it, if necessary :)
<DocScrutinizer> indeed, which is about the only reasoning to get 0R actually
<wpwrak> plus, you don't need to take a knife to your pcb :)
<DocScrutinizer> when there's no trace to bridge, you frequently ask "why the heck a 0R and not simply a trace to cut with just footprints for a 0R?"
<wpwrak> "child-safe pcb design" ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> of course you should keep away other traces from the point where you plan to cut
<wpwrak> ah well. de gustibus ...
<DocScrutinizer> each 0R is a component that can go awry on soldering
<wpwrak> one advantage of 0R is that it's an SMT option, if you decide to unuse it permanently
<DocScrutinizer> and honestly: how often did we remove any of those silly 0R at OM? How often we would've been thankful for it being a component to unsolder rather than a trace to cut?
<DocScrutinizer> sure, decide to not use V-CORE1V2 in GTA02 XP
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* DocScrutinizer quits sarcasm mode, sorry
<DocScrutinizer> I completely agree with usecase of opt-in/out "jumpers" for 0R
<DocScrutinizer> "make X NC, make Rx 0R" / "use X, make Rx NC"
<DocScrutinizer> everybody does that
<DocScrutinizer> but for "probing current from LVDO1"? c'mon
<DocScrutinizer> that's pototype design cargo-cult-prted to production boards
<DocScrutinizer> where we are at crux of the issue: all layout and EE design in OM been cargo cult driven
<wpwrak> i thought it was kaka-cult ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> nah, C&P and cargo-cult
<DocScrutinizer> spiced with a good dash of cluelesness where needed
<DocScrutinizer> hooking up signals based on the naming, no matter if the actual semantics and levels match or not
<DocScrutinizer> routing completely useless signals from meaningless subsystems to a GPIO so maybe eventually somebody might use it (or not, and if then for what exactly?)
<wpwrak> i don't think we had a lot of these
<wpwrak> perhaps one or two on gps
<DocScrutinizer> we got that one overcurrent signal from that switch on a GPIO, which allowed us to diagnose a broken PCF50633 VUSB function ;-P
<wpwrak> ah yes. "help ! my power supply has failed !" ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> actually it would've been a good thing if we ever switched to a switch with integrated OVP there, according ro my suggestion during dispute with Andy about USB OV
<DocScrutinizer> detectinf OC is a meaningless thing in this context
<DocScrutinizer> just the switch had that OC signal, so they routed it to a GPIO. Period
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<DocScrutinizer> btw basically the whole switch was surplus
<DocScrutinizer> as the PCF50633 had its own way to switch this input
<DocScrutinizer> but then it's been this very switch that gave us some awesome xray microscopic photos about burnt-out die
<DocScrutinizer> which by itself would have been the killer argument for getting a OVP protection on USB, alas Andy didn't appreciate that
<wpwrak> btw, is your grandmother project a public address ? or shall i replace it with OminateMonkeys when forwarding your mail to the list ?
<DocScrutinizer> and hell, the switch even was 6V ABSMAX while PCF50633 only was 5.5
<wpwrak> s/Ominate/Ominous/
<qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "btw, is your grandmother project a public address ? or shall i replace it with OminousMonkeys when forwarding your mail to the list ?"
<DocScrutinizer> ;-P
<DocScrutinizer> no public addr
<DocScrutinizer> my raw work mail acct
<DocScrutinizer> no proper spam filtering there
* wpwrak opens a fakebook account :)
* DocScrutinizer warms up the MTHELs
<DocScrutinizer> already been time to evaporate some doggies shiting on my lawn
<DocScrutinizer> BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
<wpwrak> i could use some for the doggies barking in the neighbourhood
<wpwrak> like, incessantly. every day. for weeks.
<DocScrutinizer> run for shelter, I'm spending one of my geostationary nuklear powered Roentgen Lasers to cure your problem
<DocScrutinizer> mayybe diving in your bathtub might block the secondary radiation (only if targeting precisely) ;-)
<wpwrak> hm. i was actually just thinking of taking a shower. must be my x-ray instinct :)
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<DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: calculation shown the impact area is a bit large for one backyard and also has not that precisely defined a border, also I the heck can't decide what to do with the other 15 lead rods of that particular thermonuclear powered xray laser device, and finally I feel unconfortable with polluting the orbit with nuclear waste. Maybe use some rat poison instead, hidden in saussage?
<DocScrutinizer> not even taken into acccount possible impact on TV sats, OMG :-o
* DocScrutinizer triggers another calculation about radiation level expected at next nearby TV sats - just in case to know it for the future
<DocScrutinizer> pabs3: thanks for answering that mail regarding xchat on maemo, I actually been a bit lazy to answer all those questions and I think you covered the best part of it
<DocScrutinizer> hell no, maemo is NOT a x86 system ;-P
<pabs3> DocScrutinizer: actually there is one email they asked you some questions in but forgot to add you to the CC. I will bounce it to you now
<DocScrutinizer> thnaks :-/
<pabs3> DocScrutinizer: basically they haven't been able to reproduce it
<DocScrutinizer> mmmpff
<DocScrutinizer> I however was able to reproduce it, exactly the way they described it for win-xchat
<pabs3> on Linux?
<DocScrutinizer> on maemo
<DocScrutinizer> FFS
<pabs3> you got the mail?
<DocScrutinizer> not yet
<DocScrutinizer> I even provided a cleanup scriptie, don't you see it?
<pabs3> I did
<pabs3> I also tried to reproduce it but couldn't on Debian amd64
<DocScrutinizer> well, the mail you forwarded already arrived me before and I referred to it and your answer on it in my post above
<DocScrutinizer> yes, I talked about armel version, not x86 version. Yes it was reproducable exactly the way they analyzed for win-xchat in several blogs/bugtraq/ML, and no I dunno a shit about which GTK version is running on maemo
<DocScrutinizer> and the rogue string got sent to me in #maemo
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<DocScrutinizer> which instantly and permanently (until backsroll cleanup via my script) segfaulted maemo based xchat
<DocScrutinizer> so I'm not going "to reproduce it" again for academic reasons, it's been real
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<DocScrutinizer> if you want me to run it under strace/gdb or sth, I might reproduce by sending the rogue string to myself via IRC. But I'm really reluctant to do any of that unless those maintainers exhibit a bit more of getting what I already said
<DocScrutinizer> (you're free to quote me, though)
<pabs3> will forward this to them
<kristianpaul> 2SMZ sounds like a xtal reference?
<kristianpaul> s/2SMZ/2SMX
<qi-bot> kristianpaul meant: "2SMX sounds like a xtal reference?"
<kristianpaul> ah yes quartz
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* nickoe wpwrak, I am back, and readding log
<nickoe> "sure, decide to not use V-CORE1V2 in GTA02 XP" eh
<nickoe> what does that mean?
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<qwebirc68040> hi all
<qwebirc68040> I am using ubuntu 11.10 kernel 3.0
<qwebirc68040> I cannot connect to ben nananote
<qwebirc68040> by usb
<qwebirc68040> the inferface works
<qwebirc68040> but it has not the ip indicated by wiki
<DocScrutinizer> nickoe: It meant "there's no use in having a 0R that allows to to switch off one of the main powerrails of your device"
<nickoe> ahh, okay, thats is a point
<qwebirc68040> this is the output
<qwebirc68040> usb0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 62:07:05:67:16:92 indirizzo inet6: fe80::6007:5ff:fe67:1692/64 Scope:Link UP BROADCAST RUNNING MULTICAST MTU:1500 Metric:1 RX packets:0 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 frame:0 TX packets:47 errors:0 dropped:0 overruns:0 carrier:0 collisioni:0 txqueuelen:1000 Byte RX:0 (0.0 B) Byte TX:12658 (12.6 KB)
<qwebirc68040> it is different than the one I used to have with the other versions of ubuntu
<wolfspraul> I wouldn't follow the "remove connection manager on Ubuntu" part though, sounds a bit radical
<wolfspraul> try: ifconfig usb0 192.168.254.100
<wolfspraul> then ping 192.168.254.101 (with ben connected)
<qwebirc68040> I will do that
<wolfspraul> qwebirc68040: btw, even though you have trouble right now - thanks for getting a Ben and coming here to ask for help :-)
<qwebirc68040> thanks now it works
<qwebirc68040> please update the wiki with this new info about ubuntu 11
<wolfspraul> what is the new info?
<wolfspraul> what I told you came straight from the wiki
<wolfspraul> (just that I don't like the idea of removing the connection manager, but I would need to do some more tests before updating the wiki page)
<qwebirc68040> sorry with ubuntu I had not to set up the ip with comman line
<qwebirc68040> command line
<qwebirc68040> I would use a command line version of stardict
<qwebirc68040> I think is called sdvc
<qwebirc68040> Is there a package for this?
<wolfspraul> maybe it's in the default image already?
<qwebirc68040> sdvc command not found
<wolfspraul> but no sdvc there either, at first glance
<wolfspraul> we need to ask xiangfu about sdvc tomorrow
<qwebirc68040> and to use cyrillic characters I remember it was necessary the ben-cyrillic package. Am I right?
<wolfspraul> for that we have some experts here too
<wolfspraul> have to wait until they respond though
<wolfspraul> I would think it's preinstalled, but I could be wrong
<qwebirc68040> I would use gftp to tranfer to ben some opkg files
<qwebirc68040> transfer
<qwebirc68040> with ftp what port should I use_
<qwebirc68040> ?
<qi-bot> [commit] Lars-Peter Clausen: ASoC: jz4740-pcm: Fix snd_pcm_hw_constraint_integer error check (jz-3.2) http://qi-hw.com/p/qi-kernel/db41fa0
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<Ayla> ok
<qwebirc73397> hi I installed the ben cyrillic package
<qwebirc73397> but I do not remember how to activate the russian characters .. perhaps with the ben .. chinese button
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<kristianpaul> argh, why latex2pdf need so much space and packages !
<kristianpaul> what??!!! texlive-latex-extra 358Mb !!!
<kristianpaul> no way
<wpwrak> ;-))
<wpwrak> there's a whole little ecosystem in there ;-)
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<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: quick sanity check: given a ribbon cable with signals next to each other, no ground between signals, to make the best of this messy situation, i'd recommend:
<wpwrak> 1) keeping the cable short, and 2) keeping signal edges slow. does that sound like reasonable advice ?
<Jay7> KDE+Mer tablet
<Jay7> so.. it's time to run with Ya.tablet ;)
<wpwrak> nice :)
<DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: yes
<wpwrak> thanks ! in a ~10 MHz system, with how long a cable would you estimate one would run into problems ? 10-20 cm still tolerable ?
<DocScrutinizer> sure
<wpwrak> at what point would it start to get nasty ?
<DocScrutinizer> of course depends on source impedance etc, but generally no problem
<DocScrutinizer> I'd frown at 50cm
<wpwrak> okay, so you wouldn't go much further then
<wpwrak> ah, quite a bit
<Ayla> it depends of the frequency
<wpwrak> very good. thanks !
<DocScrutinizer> you *might* get meters without problems, as mentioned it depends on a nuumber of factors
<wpwrak> yup. i'm assuming ~ 10 MHz. my be a tad more.
<Ayla> I remember I did learn those formulas. Don't remember any :)
<wpwrak> sure. i just want a ballpark number. like "a few 10 cm is probably safe" vs. "5 mm MAXIMUM !" ;-)
<kristianpaul> DocScrutinizer: what about same wpwrak questions but onw 100 Mhz :-)
<kristianpaul> s/onw/now
<qi-bot> kristianpaul meant: "DocScrutinizer: what about same wpwrak questions but now 100 Mhz :-)"
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: are your I/Os really running at 100 MHz ?
<DocScrutinizer> as a giudeline: I seem to remember ISA bus extenders that had 30cm of cable
<kristianpaul> nope
<kristianpaul> just curious :-)
<wpwrak> okay, ISA was DC ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> kristianpaul: 100MHz will possibly fail on <10cm, in my book
<DocScrutinizer> might even fail on 2cm, when you spoil things
<wpwrak> yeah, i think you'd be happy if the signal makes it through the connector ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> indeed
<kristianpaul> he
<Ayla> the wavelength of a 10MHz wave is 30m
<wpwrak> we already have a bit of traces on the main pcb, then some 15 mm of connector, etc.
<DocScrutinizer> wavelength is irrelevant
<kristianpaul> Ayla: but you usualli get a IF for it no?
<DocScrutinizer> it's the impedance matching that counts
<kristianpaul> s/usualli/usually
<qi-bot> kristianpaul meant: "Ayla: but you usually get a IF for it no?"
<kristianpaul> Ayla: and you can decimate as well ;)
<Ayla> IF?
<kristianpaul> Intermediate Frequency
<Ayla> ok
<DocScrutinizer> also you don't worry about crosstalk when the signalling is stable
<DocScrutinizer> I.E. NRZ etc
<DocScrutinizer> proper levels
<DocScrutinizer> USB using 480MHz
<DocScrutinizer> and you get cable length of >1m with good cable
<DocScrutinizer> or see 100BT
<DocScrutinizer> rule: NEVER get sharp bends into the cat5a cable
<kristianpaul> my M1's usd cable is 1.2m :-)
<kristianpaul> s/usd/usb
<qi-bot> kristianpaul meant: "my M1's usb cable is 1.2m :-)"
<DocScrutinizer> again: impedance
<kristianpaul> what about LVDS, when we really need it?
<kristianpaul> i tought, for example a IF Tunner and a ADC, uses LVSD, why??
<DocScrutinizer> LVDS should be immanently ruggedized signalling
<kristianpaul> that sounds good :-)
<DocScrutinizer> the whole trick of all these is each time the differential signalling
<DocScrutinizer> a twisted pair behaves rather neutral to environment when driven balanced
<DocScrutinizer> USB: D+/D-
<DocScrutinizer> cat5a 1GBT, same twisted pairs
<DocScrutinizer> LVDS: also differential aka balanced
<DocScrutinizer> wpwrak though asked about a flat ribbon cable without GND separator wires
<DocScrutinizer> and that's a bit more of a problem
<kristianpaul> hmm
<DocScrutinizer> and flat ribbon connectors usually are post type, which isn't known for excellent wave-impedance matching
<kristianpaul> "GND separator wires" is a shielding?
<DocScrutinizer> kind of
<DocScrutinizer> usually you have signals on one side of the 2 row pin connector, and GND on the other one, which results in signal, GND, signal, GND sequence of wires in flat cable
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: you normally have GND - signal A - GND - signal B - GND - ...
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: that is, on the cable
<DocScrutinizer> exactly :-D
<kristianpaul> ha, yes i tought that
<kristianpaul> where i get that cable? :-)
<wpwrak> e.g., IDE cable are like that
<wpwrak> it's not the cable that's special. it's the pin assignment
<kristianpaul> and wait, but i still need that GND grouding on the PCB for each extra GND wire?
<wpwrak> see my mail ;-)
<kristianpaul> ahh i just checked 5m ago ;)
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: btw, you really ought to subscribe to the milkymist list. even if you don't read it, we could then at least simply tell you to check when there's something that's relevant for you.
<kristianpaul> "extension board " yup also cables are messy on my desk..
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: this would allow you to post replies without getting rejected, breaking the thread, etc.
<DocScrutinizer> meh, toss a pipermail URL ;-D
<DocScrutinizer> no way
<kristianpaul> ah you did one J21 exp board for leds..
<DocScrutinizer> I already disabled my email display in systray, as it didn't manage to cope with 5 digits ;-P
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: of course :)
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: using whatever connectors i had sitting around :)
<kristianpaul> had you seems my EVB connector pich? :)
<wpwrak> well, i could probably also have used a proper Nx2 critter but the i would have had to add a cable
<wpwrak> hmm, not sure. maybe show it again :)
<DocScrutinizer> GPS? "we" just have another deja-vu on GTA04 with GPS being poisoned by device's EMI radiation XD
<kristianpaul> hmm
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: have you had a fix yet ? ;)
<kristianpaul> nope
<DocScrutinizer> expect your cable to radiate like a tesla transformer, when it comes to non-GND-protected unshielded flat ribbon cable with 10MHz signals on it
<kristianpaul> glup
<DocScrutinizer> as soon as GPS is involved which deal swith S/N ratios that are a nightmare basically
<DocScrutinizer> there are even shielded twisted-pair flat ribbon cables
<DocScrutinizer> iirc used for SCSI-3
<DocScrutinizer> yeah :-P
<wpwrak> kristianpaul: ah, that's just the EVB. so you simply connect to the header
<DocScrutinizer> I'd not expect to get a GPS fix with antenna <1m away from M1 with extension cable, resp away from cable (any part of it)
<kristianpaul> header is not same pitch
<kristianpaul> DocScrutinizer: oh sure
<kristianpaul> DocScrutinizer: is 3 meters out to the window
<DocScrutinizer> good
<wpwrak> out the window, then a cable over to the friends at arecibo ...
<DocScrutinizer> hehe
<DocScrutinizer> so what's the problem with that cable, kristianpaul ?
<kristianpaul> nothing
<DocScrutinizer> you already are in trouble with it?
<DocScrutinizer> aah, ok
<kristianpaul> nope that i know, just wpwrak made me think about it yet
<DocScrutinizer> I'd first see if any troubles arise
<DocScrutinizer> 10MHz still is kinda LF
<kristianpaul> 16Mhz actually .)
<DocScrutinizer> hmm
<DocScrutinizer> what signals do you transmit there?
<DocScrutinizer> timing critical?
<kristianpaul> IF sampling real data two bits
<DocScrutinizer> 2bit PCM?
<DocScrutinizer> with clock?
<kristianpaul> 16.384 Mhz
<DocScrutinizer> with, not which
<DocScrutinizer> I.E. sync or async
<kristianpaul> sync
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<DocScrutinizer> make sure you get proper termination at both ends
<kristianpaul> proper :/
<DocScrutinizer> consider clock line timing adjustments by introducing delay lines to get some 90° phase shift
<DocScrutinizer> so your data lines are sampled in center of eye-pattern
<kristianpaul> DocScrutinizer: http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/2/2a/Sigelogic.png 1. clock 2. sign 3. magnitude thats what came trought ribbon cable
<DocScrutinizer> aah your clock is twice the data rate? good
<DocScrutinizer> though, WTF are those discontinuities on CLK?
<kristianpaul> cheap logic analizer
<kristianpaul> in scope looks better
<DocScrutinizer> so I gather you sample on rising edge of clock?
<kristianpaul> i got same discontinuities with 4Mhz clock..
<kristianpaul> rising
<DocScrutinizer> the discontinuities look like aliasing between time frame pace of logic analyser and real signal/clock
<DocScrutinizer> I gather your analyzer just does 2 or 3 fold oversampling
<larsc> or not even that
<kristianpaul> clock is twice the data rate, no, data rate is same as clock
<DocScrutinizer> actually sligtly <2
<larsc> looks like 30Mhz or something
<kristianpaul> but i still not worry as i decimate later
<kristianpaul> also all the SoC that sample this signals (milkymist) run syncronous from the same gps receiver clock
<DocScrutinizer> just make sure you sample in centwer of eye pattern on RX side
<kristianpaul> ok
<kristianpaul> also tha pic above is not my current sampling setup (sorry i was trying to give an idea)
<DocScrutinizer> don't forget you got quite some propagation delay on a 50cm flat ribbon cable, and that this delay might differ between clock and data lines, if only a bit
<kristianpaul> ribbon is ~13cm
<DocScrutinizer> whatever
<kristianpaul> ok
<kristianpaul> i'll move to PCB-glue solution later anyway
<DocScrutinizer> you might want to sync a PLL on RX side and basically run async
<DocScrutinizer> recovering clock from edges on datalines as well as clock
<kristianpaul> in the other side (FPGA) there is a buffer
<DocScrutinizer> s/as clock/as clock line/
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer meant: "recovering clock from edges on datalines as well as clock line"
<DocScrutinizer> but maybe that's all a big overkill, and you're just fine with what you got there
<kristianpaul> fine for now :)
<DocScrutinizer> good
<kristianpaul> as wpwrak said i still not have a fix
<kristianpaul> also i dont need it yet, as soon as i got tracking a satellite :)
<kristianpaul> DocScrutinizer: but i already have your advices, wich is relly great
<DocScrutinizer> yw
<kristianpaul> considering the atenna will come later to the same box, i need think about that too
<DocScrutinizer> I'm always glad to share some of my... ideas
<kristianpaul> I'm open to listen it :)
<DocScrutinizer> meh, I should go to sleep
<kristianpaul> good sleep then :)
<kristianpaul> 18:48 still here and still lot to do..
<DocScrutinizer> sleep $(( 60 * 60 * 4 ))
<DocScrutinizer> o/
<kristianpaul> and drive to work? :-)
<kristianpaul> n8
<DocScrutinizer> :nod: